To all MM's how do you feel when not with OW?

[Owl]

I've seen no evidence in the last 12 pages of this thread to support the idea that IM is staying in his marriage for ANY reason that benefits his wife.

 

I've seen not one single bit of concern for her well-being, for what's likely to happen to her as a result of his affair. No remorse, no regret, no indication that he's given any real thought to 'protecting her'.

 

His motivations have nothing to do with his wife...at least according to the content and tone of his posts.

 

His motivations (according to his posts) are completely and totally self-centered, and self-serving.

 

His desire to keep his marriage as his fallback plan appears to be the same thing. He's not keeping his marriage to protect his wife...he's keeping it as his comfort zone and fallback plan if his affair fails.

 

There's nothing noble about this.

 

I'd agree with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mindset...he was "damned" by most people from the moment he began his affair. Any action taken afterwards that is clearly centered around maintaining the affair will also likely be "damned" by those same people.

 

The only thing he'd NOT be "damned" for would be demonstrating that he was clearly thinking about his wife and his children at some point in all of this.

 

I'm sorry this is so harsh...I'm simply laying it out as I see it.

[OWoman]

I've seen no evidence in the last 12 pages of this thread to support the idea that IM is staying in his marriage for ANY reason that benefits his wife.

 

Owl - my comments weren't addressed specifically to IM's situation - my views on that were expressed a little earlier in the thread - but in response more generally to erica's response to my response to WF's more general response.... I wasn't wanting to imply that MM are NEVER selfish, that MM NEVER foreground themselves, or that MM ALWAYS put the needs of others ahead of their own. I was simply wanting to refute the opposite view point that MM are ALWAYS selfish, that they ALWAYS foreground themselves, and that they NEVER put the needs of others ahead of their own. Some posters hold the latter view - that by virtue of having an A, they're selfish (insert string of invectives here). Yet the alternative these posters usually offer - leave your M if you're unhappy - would likely similarly get them labelled as selfish (insert string of invectives here, minus "cheating").

 

Sorry for the confusion. My views on IM's situation remain as I stated earlier.

[whichwayisup]

But if a MM wants to continue the A and stay married, and the OW enables him to continue the A, he isn't going to D. Bottomline, why should a MM give up one woman when he can have two?

 

IM will continue to do what he wants, when he wants because he can.

[Owl]

I don't think that every marriage is salvageable. I am in complete agreemant with the idea that if you've done everything you possibly could to reconcile/work things out...and its still not working...you leave and end the marriage.

 

Leaving the marriage to be with someone else? To me...that's not a good thing.

 

But...leaving to be with someone else is at least getting it all out in the open.

 

That's FAR, FAR more preferable than lying everyday to your spouse while you're carrying on an affair behind their back.

 

I don't agree with affairs...I think that's rather obvious. I think that divorce is more preferable than betrayal. I'm also a firm believer in giving your spouse a chance to make whatever changes they need to make before you walk.

 

In IM's case, he's done nothing to communicate to his wife where their marriage is headed. He's made no effort to try to fix anything. He's only interested in his own satisfaction, regardless of costs to those who he's supposed to protect. (In fact, HE sounds a lot like Owoman's MM's WIFE to me).

[whichwayisup]

Owl, that's the thing. This guy doesn't seem to want his marriage over, he wants to see how far he can go with the OW and the affair, taste the other side for a while, and then go back home and play husband again. He's selfish and in it for himself. Screw the fact he has a ring on finger, screw the fact the OW isn't wife material even if she ends up falling for him deeply, he won't leave his wife.

 

He'll do this until the OW gets pissed off and leaves or until he's busted by his wife.

[Owl]

I agree, WWIU. I was simply responding to Owoman's comments. See post #177 on this thread for my thoughts on IM's motivations.

[Mustang Sally]

I guess that is why I have a rather macabre fascination with IM's situation.

 

I am a bit incredulous that he seems to have no significant remorse over what his situation may do to the others involved in it with him - some willingly involved, and some completely unknowingly involved. As if he feels that he is really powerless over his desires and following them to his benefit, despite whatever collateral damage may occur.

 

On some levels, it seems pretty pathologic to me, I must say. And I don't believe that all people who engage in extramarital affairs have this degree of...lack of remorse (in lieu of a better way to describe it at the moment). Again, I'm not condoning cheating. But I don't think everyone involved in an A takes this approach.

 

Hey. I'm certainly not without my selfish moments (as many here can attest to) and I'm certainly not perfect - I have had thoughts of cheating, too. I admit that. But this type of attitude, "I'm going to milk both these women for all I can get - for ME," is rather foreign to me. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could really, REALLY approach it that way.

 

Or maybe not? Where is that article someone posted not too long ago about the different "types" of cheaters? Maybe IM qualifies as a true philanderer?

 

Hmmm.

Fascinating stuff.

[Owl]

MS, you just sprung a thought out of my old head.

 

IM...have you ever been diagnosed with NPD? Narcissism would explain a lot of what I've seen on your thread to date...would you consider seeing a doctor to be tested for that?

[whichwayisup]

NPD...That actually makes sense. His behaviour is more than just being selfish and wanting what he wants..

[Owl]

Of course it does...I suggested it! :D

[IM5150]

MS, you just sprung a thought out of my old head.

 

IM...have you ever been diagnosed with NPD? Narcissism would explain a lot of what I've seen on your thread to date...would you consider seeing a doctor to be tested for that?

 

Hmm...This is interesting. Exactly what is this? I probably do have some sort of underlying imbalance that might bring upon my thoughts and actions who knows. My whole life I have always had trouble showing emotion. My mom has never said "I love you" to me although I know she loves me very much. For me, it hurts to say "I love You". I don't know why and it could be because I never heard it from my mom. I'm also distant with my family. Most of my family lives in another country and unlike my sister, I never reach out to communicate with any of them. I've asked my wife why this is and she doesn't know.

 

 

I've probably mentioned already why I don't tell my wife about my A. I don't think this A will last. You see, OW is like I said before, a VERY attractive person. Guys are always attracted to her, everywhere she goes. Anytime we are together in public we get stares from everybody. This in itself makes me feel very insecure about the whole situation. It's not like she's an average looking girl that I wouldn't have to worry about too much. This is mostly where that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach comes from, it's from the not knowing.

 

OW continues to tell me how she thinks about me all the time and has fantasies about me, this is all very comforting but I still have that feeling of unknown.

[White Flower]

NPD...That actually makes sense. His behaviour is more than just being selfish and wanting what he wants..

I may have had a round-about way of suggesting the same thing when I asked IM why he needed so much to jump from one woman to the other. He doesn't seem willing to leave his W for her benefit as well as his. It appears it is for his benefit only. (Sorry if I'm wrong, IM. We're all here to help us figure each other out.)

 

Perhaps that is the reason he cannot foretell his OW's feelings as genuine? Maybe he thinks all people think the way he does and cannot anticipate someone loving him truly and wholly. All he knows now is that his wife has proven herself loyal by default. He may not love her but there is comfort in 'the monster you know'.

[Owl]

IM, your best bet would be to do a web search on NPD...here's one link for you:

 

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

 

If I (and I'm not a doctor) were to try to explain it, it would be (again, to me) a complete and utter lack of empathy. A narcissist cannot/will not "step outside of himself".

 

Read that link...that might provide some insight.

 

I'd HEARTILY suggest that you talk with your family doctor about what all that's gone on, and request testing for NPD or similar disorders. Given what you just described about your relationships with others, that makes it sound even MORE likely.

[whichwayisup]

IM, you have deep seeded issues from your childhood that IS affecting you now. Get help for it..

[IM5150]

IM, your best bet would be to do a web search on NPD...here's one link for you:

 

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

 

If I (and I'm not a doctor) were to try to explain it, it would be (again, to me) a complete and utter lack of empathy. A narcissist cannot/will not "step outside of himself".

 

Read that link...that might provide some insight.

 

I'd HEARTILY suggest that you talk with your family doctor about what all that's gone on, and request testing for NPD or similar disorders. Given what you just described about your relationships with others, that makes it sound even MORE likely.

 

 

Thanks for the link. I read most of it but I don't think that's me.

[Owl]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior that shows up in thinking and behavior in a lot of different situations and activities. People with NPD won't (or can't) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work or when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves? none of my narcissists ever admit to being distressed by their own behavior -- they always blame other people for any problems). This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood.

NPD interferes with people's functioning in their occupations and in their relationships:

 

Matches with this:

Thanks for the link. I read most of it but I don't think that's me.

 

...like a hand into a glove.

 

Even when you've already had several other posters agree that your OBSERVED BEHAVIOR matches it to a T.

 

Even if you don't think that this is the problem...what would it hurt for you to talk with your doctor about your issues and see what can be done to help?

[IM5150]

This is very telling. You don't think very highly of yourself, do you? You need to explore this with professional help.

 

I've never thought very highly of myself but I've always felt insecure. I'm a very humble person and all my friends will tell you that. I don't like to flaunt talents and I HATE attention. I'm a shy person, don't do well in social gatherings.

[Owl]

1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

 

 

2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

 

 

 

Translation: Narcissists cultivate solipsistic or "autistic" fantasies, which is to say that they live in their own little worlds (and react with affront when reality dares to intrude).

 

3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

 

 

 

Translation: Narcissists think that everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren't special and superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless.

 

4. Requires excessive admiration

 

 

 

Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume.

 

5. Has a sense of entitlement

 

 

 

Translation: They expect automatic compliance with their wishes or especially favorable treatment, such as thinking that they should always be able to go first and that other people should stop whatever they're doing to do what the narcissists want, and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated.

 

6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends

 

 

 

Translation: Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people.

 

7. Lacks empathy

 

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him

 

9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes

 

Translation: They treat other people like dirt.

 

 

Specifically:

 

1. Think about how you've described yourself, and your job in this thread. Re-read your thread, focusing on that.

 

2. Ties SPECIFICALLY to your affair with OW.

 

3. "I'm not like most guys...".

 

4. Which you seem to get in spades from OW...and given that you're likely NOT getting it from your wife anymore...explains a lot about your attraction to OW.

 

5. Speaks directly to the concept of having the affair but still keeping the marriage on hand if the A fails.

 

6. Read "affair world" all over again. I won't tell my wife about the affair so that I can keep my marriage if the affair falls through. What she doesn't know doesn't matter.

 

7. Which would completely explain your inability to understand why your wife would know. It would also explain why you can't understand how your OW feels for sure. It would even help explain why your interactions with your family are so poor as well.

 

8. Which is why you have to have this "stunningly beautiful OW that every man wants".

 

9. Again, ties directly to how you're treating your wife's possible response to this affair. It also explains your reactions to posters on this thread who disagree with you.

 

THINK ABOUT IT. Even if you think you don't have THIS problem...you clearly have A problem...why not get it checked out?

[IM5150]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior that shows up in thinking and behavior in a lot of different situations and activities. People with NPD won't (or can't) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work or when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves? none of my narcissists ever admit to being distressed by their own behavior -- they always blame other people for any problems). This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood.

NPD interferes with people's functioning in their occupations and in their relationships:

 

Matches with this:

 

 

...like a hand into a glove.

 

Even when you've already had several other posters agree that your OBSERVED BEHAVIOR matches it to a T.

 

Even if you don't think that this is the problem...what would it hurt for you to talk with your doctor about your issues and see what can be done to help?

 

There are other variables that would classify you as NPD and I have not net most of them.

[Owl]

There are other variables that would classify you as NPD...

 

This might well be true...but I'm not the one currently involved in an affair or engaging in destructive behavior. Nor am I the subject of this thread...if you'd like to start a thread on possible personality flaws of Owl...I'd have a lot of fun with that!

[OWoman]

if you'd like to start a thread on possible personality flaws of Owl...I'd have a lot of fun with that!

 

:bunny::bunny: Wanna play too! :bunny::bunny:

 

sorry OP for the t/j, but the prospect of deconstructing Owl is irresistable!

[Mustang Sally]

I'm no specialist in NPD...that's for sure.

 

Is it possible for those with NPD to have insight into their disorder? Is it actually successfully treatable?

 

I'm thinking that, if not (at least on the insight question), then IM - you won't be able to recognize this about yourself. I agree that you should talk with a health-care provider about the possibility. JMO.

[Owl]

:bunny::bunny: Wanna play too! :bunny::bunny:

 

sorry OP for the t/j, but the prospect of deconstructing Owl is irresistable!

 

LOL...I doubt that LS has the bandwidth to list all that's wrong with me.

 

Actually, I'm easy. I suffer from "White Knight" complex, combined with the analytical mindset of a professional troubleshooter and the confidence of an ex-combat vet.

 

I want to help people in crisis and fix problems...I'm convinced I'm always right...and I usually am! :D

 

Sorry IM...couldn't resist a response to Owoman!

[carhill]

NPD was in my thoughts, reading. Also, I found IM5150 (the handle itself) to be an interesting choice.

 

Not in the OP's specific circumstance, but I do miss my dear old friend (which my psychologist has deemed and I agree is an emotional attachment) when we have significant periods of non-contact. My emotions (and hers I believe) have evolved into roles of supportive friends, as she and her boyfriend have met my wife and shared dinner with us in our home and I have been honest about my feelings in therapy.

 

My wife's mother has NPD and I know the signs well and have learned tools to deal with her without undue hardship. Interestingly, the same therapy which I have participated in to work on my marriage has helped me deal with MIL better.

 

FWIW, my parents didn't kiss me or hug me or tell me they loved me much when I was a child and I think it did contribute some to my fear of intimacy (or more precisely how to properly express it) when I was younger, but I always "knew" I was loved and have no significant issues showing it now.

 

Hope the OP figures this out. There are a number of valuable human psyche's involved here, including his. Get thee to a doctor, please. There is no indignity in wanting to learn more about yourself to better your relationships and your own lot in life.

 

I wish you well.

[bentnotbroken]

Mr. Messy is NPD, he was diagnosed when we attempted counseling before the affair. He didn't like what the counselor had to say about him. But everything she told him was based on a 180 questionnaire that he answered in room alone. I will never change. God help the next woman he gets with.