spookie Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I think EVERYONE (or nearly) would like to sleep with other people but would prefer their SO to be monogamous. IMO monogamy isn't about desire as much as it is about respect and reciprocity.
oppath Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 If anything, it's the women that flounder sometimes (thoughts of "what if" and the grass is greener syndrome). While it may be a gross generalization, I've noticed that when a relationship begins to go sour, a man will shut down and become complacent/indifferent. A woman, however, will begin to fantasize about other men and think of the "what ifs"... Her mind begins to wander before his does. The man is more likely to stay and deal with the loose ends before allowing himself to jump ship. This is why I personally have noticed that women more often than men have the next guy lined up in advance. I think guys, if they are the dumper, often date date date right away, but from my observations, women are more likely to dump one guy to be with the next, jumping to a new relationship. I'm biased though, as I have dated women who do that, including to me, whereas I am the type who, if I commit to being the boyfriend, it really does mean I am committed.
shadowofman Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 IMO it is a double standard. Men and women are just as likely to have an innate promiscuousness. What I mean is that a certain percentage of the population is ultimately, biologically wired to want to be promiscuous. Unfortunately possessiveness is also wired into our biology. Most men I know would love to have their end of the relationship open, but would not be able to condone their woman stepping out. It is an unfortunate aspect of human biological nature. Human social norms differ from culture to culture and over time. There was a time in our culture that men were almost expected to have a wife, and have mistresses. That is how this plays out in a male dominated culture, where men were allowed to "cheat". You could assume that women were "cheating" as well, just not supposed to. With the increased power of evangalism, monogamy found dominance in the current culture. As an outlet, "cheating" became the norm. The point is, that as much as promiscuousness is a part of most peoples psychology, possessiveness is also a part. It's a perfect storm for the gender wars to live on forever.
Trimmer Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 IMO it is a double standard. Men and women are just as likely to have an innate promiscuousness. What I mean is that a certain percentage of the population is ultimately, biologically wired to want to be promiscuous. Unfortunately possessiveness is also wired into our biology. Most men I know would love to have their end of the relationship open, but would not be able to condone their woman stepping out. It is an unfortunate aspect of human biological nature. I maintain that a claim to a "double standard" should be based on behaviors - standards that are applied - and not on desires, which you assert are biologically wired-in. I bet those men who you say "would love to have" their end of the relationship open, still, in reality, actually commit to a standard of monogamy within their relationship, regardless of what they would "want to do" if the rules were opened up. So there may be a disparity in sexual desire, and tendency towards monogamy (which as you assert, is somewhat programmed-in) but the behaviors we exhibit represent the standards to which we hold ourselves, and/or the "double-standards" that we apply differently to others than we do ourselves. So where is the double standard? Show me where men systematically say "I expect you to be monogamous, but I will behave otherwise myself..." The ones that do that are called "cheaters", and note that (1) our societal standard generally looks down upon that behavior, and (2) we could argue all day whether the statistics say "more women" or "more men" cheat, but we can probably reasonably assert that it's a pretty large percentage in both cases, so if there is a double standard, I would say it's not along the lines of men vs. women, it's more about cheaters vs. those who are able to stay committed to a monogamous relationship.
shadowofman Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I agree with much of what you said Trimmer and it has given me a new way of expressing it. Especially... I would say it's not along the lines of men vs. women, it's more about cheaters vs. those who are able to stay committed to a monogamous relationship. Ultimately this is what I was refering to. Men and women are just as likely to be promiscuous, possessive, and "cheater" all at once. It is often thought of as the War of the Sexes, because it is often assumed that men are cheaters and women want to keep them monogamous. The point I'm trying to make is that there are people with an innate promiscuousness, and people that prefer monogamy. In a society where promiscuousness is demonized, promiscuous people resort to hiding their promiscuousness, entering into relationships with others, and cheating, regardless of whether or not their parners are promiscuous as well. I have these friends. They are a couple and have been together for a couple years. They are both very promiscuous cheaters. As soon as the one found out about the others affairs, they dumped them. Even though they were just as guilty. IMO, if we all came to accept our sexual orientations for what they are, and we didn't pretend (publicly and privately) to be something we are not, then we would all be much happier, find partners with complimentary orientations, and war would be over. The problem is that promiscuous people need to stop being so possessive.
OpenBook Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 So where is the double standard? Show me where men systematically say "I expect you to be monogamous, but I will behave otherwise myself..." How about the Infidelity forum on this site, for starters?? OK, men almost never come out and SAY this. But it is exactly how they behave. They would NEVER tolerate their W's having an A, even while they're engaging in the same behavior themselves. Their egos wouldn't be able to handle it. The ones that do that are called "cheaters", and note that (1) our societal standard generally looks down upon that behavior, and (2) we could argue all day whether the statistics say "more women" or "more men" cheat, but we can probably reasonably assert that it's a pretty large percentage in both cases, so if there is a double standard, I would say it's not along the lines of men vs. women, it's more about cheaters vs. those who are able to stay committed to a monogamous relationship. I firmly believe that the double-standard is still very much alive and well, and it still follows along on the Male vs. Female fault line. When a committed woman has an affair, she is branded (mostly by males) as a worthless slut. When a man does it, he is viewed - and takes great pains to present himself - as a tortured soul who isn't getting his needs met at home. And while our "society" looks down on cheaters all day long, it still happens in at least half (if not more) of all M's. So that condemnation from society is meaningless. It does nothing to alleviate or reduce the problem. The problem is that promiscuous people need to stop being so possessive. I totally agree with this. It's not fair to hold your partner to one set of standards while adhering to a different set for yourself. Now... if only reality could be fair!
shadowofman Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yeah, OpenBook, but my arguement is that the possessiveness of an individual is just as involuntary as the promiscuousness. It's a double standard that most people can't control. The trick is for these promiscuous people to admit that possession of another person is immoral, just as they don't want to immorally be possesed. But then again, many are happy to be "cheaters".
OpenBook Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yeah, OpenBook, but my arguement is that the possessiveness of an individual is just as involuntary as the promiscuousness. It's a double standard that most people can't control. The trick is for these promiscuous people to admit that possession of another person is immoral, just as they don't want to immorally be possesed. But then again, many are happy to be "cheaters". Interesting concept (possessiveness=immoral). I suspect that part of the "payoff" of cheating is the illicit thrill of getting away with something... sneaking behind their partner's back... having your cake and eating it too, and so on. The "payoff" would be eradicated if the partner was OK with it.
Lizzie60 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Am I right in concuding that most guys would be in open relationships if they could, and women are the main force keeping exclusive relationships the status quo in our society? For guys reading this: if you were in love with a girl would you still want to have sex with other women if your girlfriend was cool with it? Or does your desire to spread your seed fizzle when you become attached to one woman? I suspect there's a double standard where guys aren't cool with their girlfriends sleeping with other men, but they would eagerly screw around on their girlfriends if it were acceptable to do so. By acceptable I mean that guilt weren't a factor. I totally agree.. any man who say that he wouldn't is a liar.. There are still more men cheating than women.. a LOT more. Of course the woman would feel she can cheat if her partner would and he was OK with it.. truth is women forgive .. men don't (it's harder) but some women still wouldn't.. because of their kids... Women can be faithful all their life..while for men it's almost impossible. Most if not ALL men would cheat given a chance and knowing their partner would never know...
Florida Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Oh, It is not so uncommon, but I think of dating as weeding a garden if that makes any sense. In the my experiences early and later. The boyfriend in question would mention the ex. Say things and build up to a harboring of emotions for which I would offer and end to our monogamy for him to pursue (to his unknown caveman mind the ramifacations of this choice) consequenses of such a choice). It is all measurements in how much I care ...We can listen, we can talk about it and we can discuss what will happen (although, planned cheaters never want to do that beforehand)... but once the switch is flipped.. there you have it. This makes a lot of sense. I would enter a relationship thinking "this HAS to work with HIM" whereas this clicked more, I see now that dating has more a purpose of weeding out/giving enough rope to hang themselves to see where true character lies is better for evaluation purposes. The only thing is...I don't know how to put it succinctly. Each situation is different, but the guy should know what you are comfortable with, and then if he chooses to go over that it is bad. But not everyone starts a relationship with the knowledge of how to be in that specific relationship. For example, a man that was married before or had many long term GF's knows right from wrong, whereas a guy with fewer long term GF's may not know "the rules" and would probably hang himself with all that rope.
Florida Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I totally agree.. any man who say that he wouldn't is a liar.. There are still more men cheating than women.. a LOT more. Of course the woman would feel she can cheat if her partner would and he was OK with it.. truth is women forgive .. men don't (it's harder) but some women still wouldn't.. because of their kids... Women can be faithful all their life..while for men it's almost impossible. Most if not ALL men would cheat given a chance and knowing their partner would never know... But Lizzie, you were married to a guy who didn't cheat...you have experience with a loyal guy.
Florida Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Did I "prefer" not to do it? Or did I "choose" not to do it? Seriously, I don't know how I would characterize that decision. But I know that whichever it was, it was instantaneous - there was never any hesitation in my mind, no wavering, balancing on the fence, nor was there at any other time in those 18 years - and that was based out of respect for the partnership and the marriage I had chosen to commit to. So heck, I don't know, if you send me to heaven with 46 virgins around an oasis, and that's just how things work there, would I "prefer" to pick a favorite and exist in monogamy? You know - probably not. But here in this world, where I live, I can only imagine myself making one strong, deep, intimate connection with another human being at a time. Whether that's because that's the way society molds my expectations, or if it's truly in my nature, I can't really tell. Enough seriousness. I'm going back to the witticisms. Well that's honest, and it does go with my theory too! Thanks for the temporary cessation of witticisms to answer!:laugh:
blind_otter Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I think EVERYONE (or nearly) would like to sleep with other people but would prefer their SO to be monogamous. IMO monogamy isn't about desire as much as it is about respect and reciprocity. I dunno. I have no urge to be with anyone besides my SO, emotionally, physically, sexually. Strange. I used to be a serial cheater. I cheated on every partner I had until I met my SO. Then the urge...just went away.
Lizzie60 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 But Lizzie, you were married to a guy who didn't cheat...you have experience with a loyal guy. I said I don't think they (my 2 'exes') ever cheated but I can't say that I am 100% certain... I wasn't with them 24/7... I have a doubt about my first... oh and I never got married...
Author shadowplay Posted February 12, 2008 Author Posted February 12, 2008 Underpants, I'm confused by your post. Are you saying you test bfs by offering them the option of an open relationship and then you dump them if they accept?
Author shadowplay Posted February 12, 2008 Author Posted February 12, 2008 What I find interesting is when I proposed an open relationship to my bf a few weeks ago (and later retracted), I told him he was free to have sex with whomever he wanted but he opted out. He said he didn't want to have sex with any other girls. My cynical side suspected it was because he didn't want ME sleeping with other guys.
tanbark813 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 There are still more men cheating than women.. a LOT more. Absolutely untrue.
Phateless Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 This is why I personally have noticed that women more often than men have the next guy lined up in advance. I think guys, if they are the dumper, often date date date right away, but from my observations, women are more likely to dump one guy to be with the next, jumping to a new relationship. I'm biased though, as I have dated women who do that, including to me, whereas I am the type who, if I commit to being the boyfriend, it really does mean I am committed. Dead on, Opp. This is exactly what my ex did to me...
Star Gazer Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Am I the only one here who doesn't see this as a discussion about cheating? An open relationship doesn't involve cheating, and that's what Shadow asked about. Yet from the very first response onward it's been all about cheating. So the QUESTION REMAINS: If offered an open relationship, would you go for it? Do you think more men would be willing to have an open relationship than women?
Author shadowplay Posted February 12, 2008 Author Posted February 12, 2008 Am I the only one here who doesn't see this as a discussion about cheating? An open relationship doesn't involve cheating, and that's what Shadow asked about. Yet from the very first response onward it's been all about cheating. So the QUESTION REMAINS: If offered an open relationship, would you go for it? Do you think more men would be willing to have an open relationship than women? Exactly -- an open relationship is when both partners consent.
tanbark813 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 So the QUESTION REMAINS: If offered an open relationship, would you go for it? No. Do you think more men would be willing to have an open relationship than women? I don't think it's closely tied to gender.
Cobra_X30 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 So the QUESTION REMAINS: If offered an open relationship, would you go for it? Do you think more men would be willing to have an open relationship than women? Nope. Sounds like a giant waste of energy to me. My self esteem comes from inside me, and is validated by what I do, not who I do.
oppath Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I think it does relate to cheating because the way the question was phrased, it seems to read if you were in an exclusive, serious relationship, and your partner then suggested to make it an open relationship, would you do it? That is different than if I were dating someone and she told me from the beginning that she believes in open relationships, we were never exclusive, and she offered it. There is a HUGE difference between those two scenarios. If we were already exclusive, I'd basically take it as her wanting permission to cheat, or to test the waters with another guy, and I'd fear her motivation was to see if she liked that other guy better but wanted to test it out before jumping ship. If I dated a girl, and before commitment, from the get go she expressed the desire for an open relationship, then there is a decent chance I would consent. However, I wouldn't invest much emotionally in that relationship. I'd have a hard time with trust -- not sexually -- but emotionally. If a girl were asking for an open relationship AFTER we were exclusive, I'd be incredibly offended and I'd feel deceived. My question would be "why lead me on to believe you wanted a traditional, monogamous relationship, when what you want is an open relationship?" I would question my adequacy as a lover emotionally and in bed. I think it's incredibly unfair to flip the script like that. If you believe in open relationships, then when you start dating men, tell them that what you desire are open relationships.
tanbark813 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I agree with oppath. There's definitely a big difference in those scenarios.
Curmudgeon Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Most if not ALL men would cheat given a chance and knowing their partner would never know... Given your "trade" you really don't like men much, do you, excxept for what they can do for you? You must really have ended up with a bunch of losers to have developed such an attitude towards men as a whole. But then again, look at your clientel. I do believe men can and many want to be monogamous, and are, and most of us would NOT want to be in open relationships.
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