He is the expert I am the learner

[Kamille]

I keep bringing up this problem in different forms throughout my various threads and decided to try and figure it out once and for all.

 

BF and I are both academics, he's a professor, me a PhD student. In all our discussions related to anything about social theory (even when it is my area of expertise and not his), he positions himself as the expert. I think it's a professional difformation he acquired, but it still drives me completely nuts.

 

It's annoying because I always end up feeling like it's condescending. I feel like there's this unhealthy pattern in our relationship, where he feels his knowledge and expertise has to be recognized and idealised and the only way he knows how to do this (or get this validation) is to never recognize me as an intellectual equal.

 

We had a fight this weekend about it where he admitted he doesn't think I do master the subject matter. Meanwhile I have scholarships, thesis supervisor, advisory boards, editors and reviewers who beg to differ. Plus, unlike him, I never position myself as the 'authority' - it's just not part of my conception of knowledge.

 

It's like he needs to put me in a weak position so he can be the one to help me. I can see where that pattern stems from: when I met him, I was feeling overwhelmed because I was teaching for the first time, and he really helped me out. But now I would like to (re)gain some autonomy or dignity. I'm not sure to what extent his 'saviour-expert' attitude is engrained in him or perticular to our relationship.

 

Any advice? I know this is a very specific topic - but maybe some of you have managed to change the dynamics of your Rs.

[Pyro]

The only advice I can give you is to talk to him and tell him what you are telling us.

[Art_Critic]

It's annoying because I always end up feeling like it's condescending. I feel like there's this unhealthy pattern in our relationship,

 

 

It is and It is..

He needs to learn that when 2 people are in a relationship that the professor-student crap needs to stay at work.

 

He is treating you like a student of his and you are not.. you are his equal.. his lover and his friend.. He knows this too but his judgment fails him because you become threatening to him as an equal..

 

Tell him to knock the crap off and to drop his condescending attitude at the door when he comes home..

Telling him how you feel will help but you have to also be ready to not allow him to treat you this way as well...

[Ariadne]

It's like he needs to put me in a weak position so he can be the one to help me... I would like to (re)gain some autonomy or dignity. Any advice?

 

He is putting you in a weak position because that's the way he feels with you too.

 

See, you dislike everything about him. You don't like that guy, you just feel safe with him.

 

It bothers you that he smokes, drinks, and I'm sure there's a million other things that bother you too. He knows this.

 

He can't give you the autonomy and dignity you want when he wants to take it away from you.

 

It'd be different if this was an equal relationship but it's not. There's a fight going on.

[Star Gazer]

I've been in a similar place (not quite, but still) but in your BF's shoes. Interesting dynamic.

 

BF and I are both academics, he's a professor, me a PhD student. In all our discussions related to anything about social theory (even when it is my area of expertise and not his), he positions himself as the expert.

 

I gotta say, bells are going off already. He's the professor, you're the student. Regardless of when you surpass the student role, you will always have less knowledge and be less experienced than he is, simply by virtue of the fact he is "ahead of you" in years doing this. I'm not say this is true, I'm saying this is what he thinks (based on my own experience, anyway).

 

It's annoying because I always end up feeling like it's condescending. I feel like there's this unhealthy pattern in our relationship, where he feels his knowledge and expertise has to be recognized and idealised and the only way he knows how to do this (or get this validation) is to never recognize me as an intellectual equal.

 

I can't say that he ever will. He might treat you like one, but he'll likely never think of you as one... or if he did, he'd feel threatened by how you were once "behind" him and are now neck and neck on the intellectual playing field. Again, from my experience.

 

I'm not sure what advice there is to give though... I need to think about it.

[Florida]

It's either this or he feels threatened by your success and his resulting inferiority brings up a whole host of other issues. I think it is almost impossible for a man and woman to be in the same field and have harmony.

 

Either you are cast as the castrating bi*ch or the fawning student.

 

My advice is not comforting. Either get used to it, or one day if you advance past him, professionally speaking , be prepared for the other side of that role you are cast into.

 

Then again, you two can actually discuss things intimately, and bounce ideas off one another. The advantage is the also the drawback. One partner always becomes the dominant in this scenario, it is too idealistic to think otherwise.

[Kamille]

Thanks for the replies. I am reading them all as they come along and they are helping. I've been trying to formulate an answer. I think you all touch onto something - but Ariadne, you are right. It is about a power dynamic. So you think he puts me in that position because he feels weak otherwise?

 

I'm not sure. Like I said, I think his desire for validation goes way further then our relationship. Namely, his father, whom I have met, wasn't a very authoritative figure when he was growing up, except in one area: knowledge. Therefore the only way he had to prove himself to his father was knowledge. I think.

 

 

Pyro, we have talked about it and I have said pretty much what I said here. Which makes me think Florida and Stargazer might be onto something. I like I said, I think it goes way beyond my relationship to him. It's also how he interacts with most people he works with, not to mention what his profession entails.

 

So I'm thinking there are three types of possible solutions 1) avoid those discussions -2) accept the positions or 3)try to modify and improve how we do it.

 

Right now I would like to aim for number 3 and perhaps I will try to words things along the lines of what AC suggested:

 

Art critic:

He is treating you like a student of his and you are not.. you are his equal.. his lover and his friend.. He knows this too but his judgment fails him because you become threatening to him as an equal..

 

Tell him to knock the crap off and to drop his condescending attitude at the door when he comes home..

 

One thing though... How will I not allow him to treat me this way? Do you mean be ready to end things?

 

Telling him how you feel will help but you have to also be ready to not allow him to treat you this way as well...

[latefragment]

Kamille, I haven't posted on your threads before but I've been following your threads for a long time. I would agree with other posters that I have a hunch your bf is just trying to equalize a bit of the "balance of power" since you've been distant at times and he's been a bit 'smothering' and maybe his "expertise" so to say is the one thing he can lord over you - meanwhile you have more 'control' over the relationship since you're the one being distant more often (and bringing up the smoking issue, etc.)

 

I mean, whenever I feel 'disadvantaged' in a relationship (i.e. the guy's about to dump me or he's distant) I will try to "play up" my strengths, however unrelated (talk about achievements, whatever, not in a gloating way, but in a way as to highlight just how great I am). Yes I know it's desperate, (believe me, it sucks) but... just my 2 cents.

[Storyrider]

I keep bringing up this problem in different forms throughout my various threads and decided to try and figure it out once and for all.

 

BF and I are both academics, he's a professor, me a PhD student. In all our discussions related to anything about social theory (even when it is my area of expertise and not his), he positions himself as the expert. I think it's a professional difformation he acquired, but it still drives me completely nuts.

 

It's annoying because I always end up feeling like it's condescending. I feel like there's this unhealthy pattern in our relationship, where he feels his knowledge and expertise has to be recognized and idealised and the only way he knows how to do this (or get this validation) is to never recognize me as an intellectual equal.

 

We had a fight this weekend about it where he admitted he doesn't think I do master the subject matter. Meanwhile I have scholarships, thesis supervisor, advisory boards, editors and reviewers who beg to differ. Plus, unlike him, I never position myself as the 'authority' - it's just not part of my conception of knowledge.

 

It's like he needs to put me in a weak position so he can be the one to help me. I can see where that pattern stems from: when I met him, I was feeling overwhelmed because I was teaching for the first time, and he really helped me out. But now I would like to (re)gain some autonomy or dignity. I'm not sure to what extent his 'saviour-expert' attitude is engrained in him or perticular to our relationship.

 

Any advice? I know this is a very specific topic - but maybe some of you have managed to change the dynamics of your Rs.

 

Wow, my H and I have this dynamic big time. Also, I find myself feeding into it, as it is what I'm most used to with him, from day one.

 

It is not a good dynamic for a couple.

[sb129]

I know what you mean, its a tough one. I have been in that situation before, I think my ex used to try and bring me down because of his own insecurities, but it was more about R stuff than professional stuff.

 

Occasionally WB and I clash because we both have science backgrounds and he is a very knowledgable person who hates being wrong, and sometimes he tries to tell me about stuff that I know alot more about. And we have to solve it by googling it, because my word isn't enough to prove it.

We can also snipe at eachother over stupid stuff like who knows more about how to work the computer.

This has only happened a couple of times though, and I can't be bothered to pursue it, esp as I make more money....

 

I think if I was dating someone who worked in the same field as me I can see how you could get competitive, even if you tried hard not to.

 

I don't really know what advice to give you though. Its a toughie.... I am going to think about it and get back to you.

[Florida]

BF and I are both academics, he's a professor, me a PhD student. In all our discussions related to anything about social theory (even when it is my area of expertise and not his), he positions himself as the expert. I think it's a professional difformation he acquired, but it still drives me completely nuts.

 

It's annoying because I always end up feeling like it's condescending. I feel like there's this unhealthy pattern in our relationship, where he feels his knowledge and expertise has to be recognized and idealised and the only way he knows how to do this (or get this validation) is to never recognize me as an intellectual equal.

 

We had a fight this weekend about it where he admitted he doesn't think I do master the subject matter. Meanwhile I have scholarships, thesis supervisor, advisory boards, editors and reviewers who beg to differ. Plus, unlike him, I never position myself as the 'authority' - it's just not part of my conception of knowledge.

 

Something else occured to me, but I doubt you will like this answer.

I'm telling it to you straight, and not using that as a line to be mean.

 

Why does it bother you so much?

He is more learned than you, more advanced. You're still a student, I could understand if you were truly equals, graduated the same time, held different positions but at the same level.

 

But you're not. It seems kind of unfair to ask him to pretend differently.

 

Hierachy is real. Even if you talk to someone 2 years behind you, I'm sure you think it too. Is it so bad that he is just being truthful about the reality?

 

Why exactly do you resent that he stated that you aren't learned enough?

 

What is this REALLY about?

 

Maybe...just a thought-you feel he doesn't have what it takes to think he is higher than you, intellectually speaking, or maybe just ego- so you feel competitive in a tit for tat way?

[johan]

Use your teeth. Show him who the expert is.

[melodymatters]

You don't need to be ready to " end things" as you put it above, thats too overboard and everything else seems pretty great.

 

You need to simply disempower this aspect. I mean really, you know how sometimes we let guys think A or B, if it will make them feel better ?

 

You need to put this in that box FOR NOW. Take it off the table. If trying to get through to him how this aspect makes you feel doesn't work, be the bigger person. " Ok genuis, you win, now how about ( fill in the blank)

 

It's amazing how smart guys will debate through anything, but when you give them the naughty kid treatment, somehow they get it.

 

Now, if this is a bigger thing to you, I don't mean to be cavalier and by all means do try and talk about it first, but if at the end of the day you can simply see it as a "daddy didn't love me/dick issue" then try and let it die out on it's own.

 

Just one mans opinion, I don't mean to downplay this, especially if it messes with your self esteem, just another way to play the cards your dealt.

[D-Lish]

Hey K.

 

I've been in a similar relationship with a fellow academic.... but our situation was that he was a psych. major and I was a religious studies major. His position was that my educational background was a "useless" degree, while his degree was far more applicable in the real world.

 

We were both intelligent people, but we viewed the world from two different angles.... He constantly referred to my degree as "soft science". He was a police officer, and he would come home with stories about his interactions with victims/perps on the job and view those encounters through the eyes of a psychology major. I would often suggest that having a background in religious culture would be an asset to his job because we live in a multi-cultural society, and when you have an understanding of how people are shaped by culture, ethnicity and religion...that you can often empathize and better understand their behaviour and actions in different situations.

 

He wanted no part of my "soft science"....Didn't even want to listen to what I had to say.

I eventually left him after realizing our relationship was always going to be one sided.

 

I think your man probably needs to maintain a certain semblance of intellectual authority in order to remain at peace with his ego. I am sure he is somewhat threatened to a degree. A relationship can't work if the whole mentor/student role remains in place for the rest of your lives.

It doesn't matter where you are in terms of your academic progress in comparison to his accomplishments! You are in a relationship.... the mentor/student thing ended as soon as you decided to enter into that contract.

 

I love bantering back and forth with someone who stimulates my brain and challenges me on my thoughts and ideas.... that's incredibly sexy! It's not so sexy if someone doesn't respect your authority on matters you have obviously mastered.

 

Hey Kam... you are an accomplished, awesomely intelligent woman...and you should have bragging rights to that success.

 

I really do suspect that it would be intimidating for a man in his position to see the woman he loves and once mentored progressing to the point where she could possibly surpass him.

 

Just as much as you are trying to prove your abilities to him, he is trying to protect his ego by subconsciously keeping you in your role. I think he needs to feel this way....just as you need to feel recognized and rewarded for your skills.

 

I imagine it would be hard for any mentor to see a student growing to the point where they might possibly surpass them. Maybe he is feeling threatened by that notion?

 

There needs to be give and take in a relationship. I know you DO have perspectives and insight that would enrich him if he would be more open to listening to you.

 

I just think it's a bit of an ego-threat.

Instead of debating and quarreling over the profound.... why not address the mundane? Um, that being how it makes you feel to be under rated.

 

I think you can work this out. You are experiencing a struggle here. He wants to be/remain the respected acclaimed Professor. You, on the the other hand, want to have the man you love acknowledge your academic prowess and be proud of you. That still sounds very "mentor/student".... why? Because it is!

 

I think this is a transition for the two of you.

You should be able to learn from each other, challenge one another, and accept each other as equals. It will happen. I think it's the ego feeling threatened.... and guess what Kam- that's not your issue!

 

Keep talking to him. Bring up feelings! He wouldn't be with you if you didn't stimulate and challenge him in the ways that you do. Keep up the good work.

 

;-)

Dee

[Ariadne]

Well,

 

So you think he puts me in that position because he feels weak otherwise?

 

The only reason why he would try and compete with you is because he is feeling insecure.

 

In a healthy relationship there would be a mutual admiration for the parts that each one does well.

 

So I'm thinking there are three types of possible solutions 1) avoid those discussions -2) accept the positions or 3)try to modify and improve how we do it.

 

The solution would be to love him unconditionally and look up to him.

 

The clutch now would be for you to compliment him, ask him for advice, and stroke his ego while being sincere. Not sure if that would work very well since I doubt you respect him much.

[Storyrider]

Something else occured to me, but I doubt you will like this answer.

I'm telling it to you straight, and not using that as a line to be mean.

 

Why does it bother you so much?

 

I can't answer for Kamille, but I can say that, in my relationship, it is a turnoff. I just don't think this holier (or smarter) than thou attitude is conducive to romance.

 

A lot of posters are saying he's doing it b/c he's insecure, but there is another possibility. He's doing it b/c being "right" is more important to him than being close and connected to you.

[marlena]

Hi Kamille,

 

You can choose to look at this in two ways. Either as Ivory Tower bickering in which case you just enjoy the intellectual bantering or you can construe it as an attempt to devaluate you. If you tend to believe the second, then, you have to consider how much of a detrimental effect this is having on your relationship and on you personally.

 

I am a teacher and I know all too well how taking on a pedantic attitude can become so ingrained in your personality that you hardly recognize it's there. It's very annoying, I know, I see it all the time. You either accept it and try to beat him at his own game by fully substantiating all of your arguments (this if course can get tiring not to mention boring) or like some one else mentioned stick to mundane things.

 

It seems that a student/mentor pattern has been established and like all patterns, this is hard to break. Perhaps one day, when you cease to be a student and have climbed the hierarchy of academia, he will stop and see you as an equal. Right now, like Florida says, he probably honestly does think he knows more.

 

Another thing you could do is just joke about his "intellectual superiority" and not let on that it phases you. Perhaps, if you don't bite, he'll stop. But I'm guessing that you actually do like this repartee.

 

Another thing that I think would be important is how he does it. Is he veritably interested in teaching you new things or is he more focused on condescendingly bringing out your "mistakes" in order to validate himself? You mentioned that this is what he used to do with his father to prove his worth and gain his approval. If this is the case, then, maybe you should just let it slide and accept that he has some issues with this.

 

How are things in other areas of your relationship? If this is your only problem, then, I would be patient and let it go unless of course it is negatively influencing your feelings.

 

Hope this helps (but I doubt it).

Edited February 12, 2008 by marlena

[marlena]

Oh, I just reread your post. I thought he was in the same scientific field as you. Just tell him you are open to discussion but that it is your area of expertise and he can't possibly know more than you do. Tell him that if he doesn't acknowledge this, then, you will not engage in any more discussions with him.

 

Or like Ariadne said, stroke his ego and let him get away with it. I know, I know. Hard to do!!

[marlena]

OR you can shut his mouth with a deep, drawn out sensual kiss.

[Florida]

Kamille-come back to the post!

I re-thought my delivery, perhaps I spoke exactly as you were referring to that you didn't like in the 1st place.

 

I actually was thinking of your dilemma, and imagined myself going out with someone a few years advanced in the same field. For myself, I don't think it would bother me (then again it is all hypothetical for me) as much, unless I didn't respect him to begin with.

 

That's just me though.

 

I think that student/teacher thing would get old real fast if he just took that role with nothing to back him up, but .... you're saying you want it to change. And you can't tolerate it. So perhaps my role here is NOT to get you to change your initial feelings and reaction to it by poresenting an alternate view, because the real issue is what to DO about the fact that you feel this way. That is much harder. The other posters had really good advice tacking that issue.

[Kamille]

argh I just wrote the longest post ever and lost it!

 

BF and I had a fight over all this again yesterday and I went home where I don't have the internet.

 

I will try and repost. but i need coffee first.

 

And don't worry Florida, I think you raise a very valid point about the hierarchy. But more after coffee

[marlena]

But more after coffee

 

I need some coffee, too. I am posting rather inebriated and my posts are worse than a sixth grader's compositions.

 

I am a teacher. I need to correct my posts. Damn edit button!

[Kamille]

ok Take two (and Star, you know it, I forgot to save a copy before posting).

 

Florida, your question is probably fondamental: why does this bother me? If I think about it it's because if you asked me to list off my qualities, I would say, in order: smart, good sense of humor, and hmmm, can't think of any other right now. I guess I'm used to people, even academic supervisor, treating me like an intellectual equal. I expect it. And I expect to be respected.

 

I've been going through the list of compliments I have recieved from bf. He's complimented my physique, my cooking and once said he really liked my sense of humour. He tells me at least once a day he likes my ass. I know that's kind of funny - but it bothers me that he seems to not consider me an intellectual equal. I might not have read everything he has, but he could still consider me a smart cookie in my book.

 

You can choose to look at this in two ways. Either as Ivory Tower bickering in which case you just enjoy the intellectual bantering or you can construe it as an attempt to devaluate you. If you tend to believe the second, then, you have to consider how much of a detrimental effect this is having on your relationship and on you personally.

 

I know you are right Marlena and every conversation I start out thinking : ok this is all Ivory Tower bickering, no more, no less. The thing is, he questions my competencies in those discussions. He corrects my vocabulary or language, ascertains what is or isn't an off-topic, tells me my definitions aren't clear enough, tells me my arguments don't make sense, tells me they are weak, tells me I don't master the subject matter, tells me I'm mixing up theoretical frameworks, when I make a good point he tells I'm being vindicative. I never use any of those strategies in a discussion. If I don't understand what he is saying, I don't have the reflex of saying: you don't make sense. I ask him: "what do you mean when you say xyz?" When he brings in new subject matter to consider, I don't tell him "that's irrelevant", I listen to it and try to make the links or ask him to elucidate the links.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think mundane topic it will be for us. After those conversations, I feel hurt, drained, diminished. I feel like he doesn't try to hear me out. And I have told him all of this and he replied: you're building me out to be the big bad monster.

 

He also said I was only being vindicative and petty about this issue.

 

Also, I do compliment him on his intelligence, his work. I celebrate his successes with him. I just wish I felt like that part was reciprocal.

 

But Florida, you're right. He will always be a step ahead of me. I mean, the man knows how to play the game. I'm there because my topic is my passion and I don't really care about having an outstanding career in academia (I would just like to keep doing work I find fascinating). So basically his discussion strategies are the ones that get him admiration in his field - and also get him notice. Some academics get recognition because they can destabilise and destroy any argument. He's very skilled at that and it is giving him recognition. I guess it's good experience for me for when I do cross someone on my path that has it in for me. (Because when we discuss, I really feel like he has it in for me).

 

I asked him for some time to calm down and think this through. He is leaving tomorow morning for an important event and I want to call him and wish him good luck, yet at the same time I am still very upset about this.

[marlena]

Hey, girl,

 

RELAX! Take the time out to unwind from all this business.

 

You can view this as a challenge or you can throw in the towel if you find it so irksome.

 

Kamille, hey, if all other aspects of your relationship are good, scr** the competition and push his buttons elsewhere

 

or

 

go along with it and give it to him good.

 

Woman, have confidence in yourself! You know your worth!

 

Heck, I even know your worth and I have never even encountered your visage -

 

which I am sure matches your beautiful brain.

 

 

 

 

 

I

[Storyrider]

...ascertains what is or isn't an off-topic, tells me my definitions aren't clear enough, tells me my arguments don't make sense, tells me they are weak, tells me I don't master the subject matter, tells me I'm mixing up theoretical frameworks, when I make a good point he tells I'm being vindicative. I never use any of those strategies in a discussion. If I don't understand what he is saying, I don't have the reflex of saying: you don't make sense. I ask him: "what do you mean when you say xyz?" When he brings in new subject matter to consider, I don't tell him "that's irrelevant", I listen to it and try to make the links or ask him to elucidate the links.

 

Wow, the bolded part sounds awfully similar to things I hear at my house. I wonder if this is partly a male vs. female style of arguing or is it dirty dealing?

 

I can't help but feel that he is using his position of power to force an argument, rather than using logical finesse to convince. His comments are disguised as logic because he uses the terminology of logic. But instead of saying "I don't agree with point A," he steps back from the entire discussion and criticizes your framework. It absolves him of having to work to formulating counter-arguments. It also borders on ad hominem attack but doesn't quite go over the line. He is basically saying, "You don't know how to think and you don't know how to argue."

Edited February 12, 2008 by Storyrider