Arch Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 So the only way you can have a close friend of the opposite sex is if your spouse is involved? Hmmm. I have friendships with women that my spouse isn't involved in...is that inappropriate, too? I have friendships with some women that I talk to about my issues with my spouse that he is unaware of what we are talking about...are these inappropriate relationships? When you choose a friend over the partner you committed to for rest of your life then something is severely wrong.
silktricks Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 So the only way you can have a close friend of the opposite sex is if your spouse is involved? Hmmm. I have friendships with women that my spouse isn't involved in...is that inappropriate, too? I have friendships with some women that I talk to about my issues with my spouse that he is unaware of what we are talking about...are these inappropriate relationships? There's a big difference between being involved and having knowledge of. The sign that this is an EA rather than a friendship is the need to hide the relationship. Also, the point - in all honesty - is not the gender of the person with whom the communication is happening. It's the hiding and the feelings between the two people involved in the situation.
Owl Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 So the only way you can have a close friend of the opposite sex is if your spouse is involved? Hmmm. I have friendships with women that my spouse isn't involved in...is that inappropriate, too? I have friendships with some women that I talk to about my issues with my spouse that he is unaware of what we are talking about...are these inappropriate relationships? That depends. Would you include your spouse if they asked? Are you doing anything that your spouse would feel betrayed, hurt, offended by with these people? Are you deliberately excluding your spouse for any reason? Is there any aspect or part of the relationship that you deliberately hide from your spouse? Conversations you know that they'd feel were too personal, flirting, etc...? Are you going to these opposite sex friends for things that you can't/won't share with your spouse? Are these friends 'closer' than your spouse? If the choice came down to a decision between losing one of these friends, or losing your spouse, would you have to 'think about it'? Do you share deeply personal details about your spouse, your marriage, or your intimate feelings with these friends? Do you behave in any fashion or manner with these friends that you would immediately stop if your spouse were to walk up? Or do you already know that your spouse is hurt by your behaviors with these friends, but you refuse to change? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then if you're not in an EA, you're at least at risk because your relationships ARE on that "inappropriate boundary", and definitely have the potential to turn into an EA if other factors in your life suddenly change.
Mustang Sally Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Well, I have a girlfriend that I talk to about my issues with my spouse (see my other thread). He knows I'm friends with her. He knows her and she knows him. He doesn't come when we eat lunch, or whatever. Neither does her husband. I do talk to her in detail about all that's going on in my head about my marriage. She listens and gives me her input. She is supportive of me, but not with the intent of causing harm to my H or my marriage. However, that being said, if she ever thinks we'd be better off separated or divorced, I know she will tell me that, too. My H doesn't know everytime I have a conversation with her about my marriage. He does know that I am questioning things about our marriage, and he pretty much knows all of my issues except for some details that I think would serve no purpose except to be hurtful to him if he did know. My girlfriend does not know all of these details, either. So is this inappropriate that I go to this lady to talk about these issues?
JustBreathe Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Yes, it's cheating. In a sense, you have already left your marriage when you confide in a person of the opposite sex about things you don't want your spouse to find out your talking to him/her about. You have chosen another person over your spouse. Physical affair/emotional affair, it involves a separation from the spouse. Both hurt your spouse in equal measure. You exaggerate your friend's good points and downplay those of your spouse. You think about your friend more than your spouse. You desire him/her physically over your spouse. Value your fantasy lover opinions more than your spouses. Just because you don't do the deed doesn't mean you aren't having an affair.
Trimmer Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 (edited) Well, I have a girlfriend that I talk to about my issues with my spouse (see my other thread). He knows I'm friends with her. He knows her and she knows him. He doesn't come when we eat lunch, or whatever. Neither does her husband. I do talk to her in detail about all that's going on in my head about my marriage. She listens and gives me her input. She is supportive of me, but not with the intent of causing harm to my H or my marriage. However, that being said, if she ever thinks we'd be better off separated or divorced, I know she will tell me that, too. My H doesn't know everytime I have a conversation with her about my marriage. He does know that I am questioning things about our marriage, and he pretty much knows all of my issues except for some details that I think would serve no purpose except to be hurtful to him if he did know. My girlfriend does not know all of these details, either. So is this inappropriate that I go to this lady to talk about these issues? Sally, a founding priniciple of this discussion is the idea that it is inappropriate to go beyond a very restrained level of relationship intimacy with someone who would be a potential relationship partner (i.e. for you or me, someone of the opposite sex. For convenience, I'll use this "straight" example in the rest of this post...) I don't think anyone considers women talking among themselves about their marriages, or men talking in the locker room, as bordering on EA's. Frankly, I think a safe and respectful relationship with someone of the same sex can be a good and useful sounding board for you as an individual, and possibly for the health of the marriage. I hope my wife had some solid women friends during our marriage, when and if she needed to unload and bounce things off someone. If that outside person is of the opposite gender, however, the role blurs, and there is a conflict of interest because he/she represents a potential for emotional competition and threat to the marriage. And as others have stated, your guide for when that blur nears the threshold is when you start needing to hide your activities and the nature of your friendship from your husband. Edited February 12, 2008 by Trimmer
Mustang Sally Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Ok. Thanks Trimmer. I thought so too, but the responses that I got to my post made me start to wonder.... It almost sounded like it would be considered inappropriate by some to have those sorts of discussions even with a non-potential partner. As in, must have full disclosure with spouse above all else. That's all. Maybe I just need more caffeine today? Sorry for the tangent... Now back to our regularly scheduled programming <Sally ducks out>
Arch Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Ok. Thanks Trimmer. As in, must have full disclosure with spouse above all else. Yes, that is the purpose of marriage. A commitment between two people that goes above all "else", if you cant talk to the person you (hopefully) committed the rest of your life to about something - why do you have the right to talk to someone else about it? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being married and in a committed relationship?
Trimmer Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yes, that is the purpose of marriage. A commitment between two people that goes above all "else", if you cant talk to the person you (hopefully) committed the rest of your life to about something - why do you have the right to talk to someone else about it? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being married and in a committed relationship? Defeat the whole purpose? I think that's a little extreme... No, I think having close, same sex friends who are respectful of you as a person and of your relationship with your spouse, and with whom you can "talk shop" along gender lines can actually provide a good sounding board that could well enrich a marriage. Again, as I said earlier, I anticipate my partner wanting to have close same-sex friends, and I pretty much expect that they would have a dynamic to their relationship, that I can't access as a spouse, because of their shared gender. Yes, I still expect that respect for our marriage is first on the priority list, but I'm not threatened by my partner doing that... And, to try to bring the thread back on topic, I'll reiterate that I don't consider what I have described to be an Emotional Affair.
LakesideDream Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 exactly how I feel. Until just a couple of months ago I was firmly in the "NO" camp. After my recent experiances, and conversations with many other LS members, especially the ladies I have come to the realization that I was wrong. Part of my change of attitude may be self serving as I have been in contact with a MW for 7 years. Originally shortly after my divorce it was a torrid PA. For the last six plus years it's been "contact" that she has hidden from her H. After the discussions I've had on the OM/OW forum as of late I've had to concede that the "contact" was an elongation of the PA. It was a PA that turned into an EA. If contact wasn't serving needs of hers wouldn't she have demanded it stop? Or stopped it herself? Damn, I'm just a 57 year old guy who doesen't know nearly as much as I thought I did.
jj2007 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Would love to post a poll on this, but unfortunately no option. So... Do you consider someone who is having an emotional affair to be cheating, or do you feel it's only cheating when the affair becomes physical? Yes it is cheating.
Owl Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Sally, I'll even go a little further. I'd also add this. If you feel any kind of deep emotional attraction, or any kind of physical attraction to your friend...same or opposite sex...then I'd say that you're at risk for an EA. It happens...and honestly it seems to happen more between women than men (perhaps because its much more 'acceptable' for two women to form a relationship than two men...I dunno). I've seen posts on another forum where there have been at least 3-4 instances in the last year where a man's wife left him...for another woman. And it all started exactly in the way you described. Emotional intimacy can lead to physical intimacy. Even "just" a certain level of emotional intimacy is sufficient to be called an "emotional affair". It has a lot to do with when your feelings for that person begin to turn from friendship to something more. Does that clarify anything to you?
Mustang Sally Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Owl - I can see your point. My M and H are in absolutely no danger from my friendships with women. Those relationships are as Trimmer described, above. And I happen to agree with Trimmer, that friendships can augment a marriage relationship...especially when they are within the same gender - kind of like the girls getting together to talk in the kitchen while the boys stand around the barbeque grill, or whatever. I don't see that that kind of friendship compromises a relationship if the friends are "healthy" friends. Certainly, we've heard stories from people here who have had friends that apparently were out to sabotage their marriages (Woggle comes to mind....). That is not ok. As for opposite gender friendships? I think some can work this situation and not cross any lines. Many can't.
the_dean Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Would love to post a poll on this, but unfortunately no option. So... Do you consider someone who is having an emotional affair to be cheating, or do you feel it's only cheating when the affair becomes physical? I may be in the minority here but I personally believe a EA is worse than a purely PA. I do consider an EA to be cheating. You are sharing things that you normally would only share with your spouse and you are probably more mentally in tune to the person you are having an affair with than your spouse. If I had my choice, I would much prefer my wife to have a purely PA if just for sex than an emotional affair. Obviously both an affair that is both an EA and PA is the worst and what most EAs lead to. Dean
silktricks Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 So is this inappropriate that I go to this lady to talk about these issues? Not IMO. The reason I brought up the gender thing is because I know of more than two cases where two women who were married ended up in lesbian relationships with their "best friend". The point I was attempting to make is that the question of whether or not a situation is an EA doesn't exclusively sit with x-gender friendships, but rather with the content of the communication, level of intimacy and intentions of the people involved.
cj1988 Posted February 13, 2008 Posted February 13, 2008 I may be in the minority here but I personally believe a EA is worse than a purely PA. I do consider an EA to be cheating. You are sharing things that you normally would only share with your spouse and you are probably more mentally in tune to the person you are having an affair with than your spouse. If I had my choice, I would much prefer my wife to have a purely PA if just for sex than an emotional affair. Obviously both an affair that is both an EA and PA is the worst and what most EAs lead to. Dean I am with you Dean, EA takes time and a lot of mental connection. The heart is involved and that should not be shared with anyone but your S. You can have sex with anyone and it not mean anything, we have all done that or most. If you have an EA it is the falling in love feelings that are so overwhelming that you are in heaven. I do not wish my H to have those for anyone but me.....but unfortunately he has and we have and will never be the same again !
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