blind_otter Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 So your argument here is that because some of us are better equipped mentally to handle abuse... then it's Ok to abuse people? I disagree, and I hope others do too! How the hell did you draw that conclusion from my post? You must have been reading something else. What I said, hell I'll repeat it, is that abuse is not a cycle unless the victim of abuse allows it to be. I know this from personal experience. TBH what the OP did is not abuse, in any way, shape, or form. Having been the victim of abuse from several different sources, I recognize the difference between abuse and simple incompatibility. From her posts she has not been planning to use and then dump her BF. She was totally into him. Now she's not. What's the problem?
sunshinegirl Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 I was completley into him, ecsastic that maybe I had found my "the one"... until we finally went all the way. Lying in bed after, our limbs intertwined, all the reasons I thought I was falling for him for, morphed into reasons I could not stand to be in the same room. TBH I've had this problem with almost all the men in my past. I convince myself I'm falling in love, thereby giving myself the ok to consummate the relationship...and poof. My "feelings" completely disappear. At risk of making light of your situation, it sounds exactly like the Sex and the City episode where Carrie hooks up with Jon bon Jovi, who she meets at her therapist's office. After they have sex for the first time, she learns why he was seeing the therapist: he loses interest after having sex. I haven't read everything on this thread so forgive me if this has already been covered: if you recognize this as an ongoing pattern, what are you doing to deal with the underlying pattern?
Cobra_X30 Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 How the hell did you draw that conclusion from my post? You must have been reading something else. What I said, hell I'll repeat it, is that abuse is not a cycle unless the victim of abuse allows it to be. I know this from personal experience. TBH what the OP did is not abuse, in any way, shape, or form. Having been the victim of abuse from several different sources, I recognize the difference between abuse and simple incompatibility. From her posts she has not been planning to use and then dump her BF. She was totally into him. Now she's not. What's the problem? Well, follow the conversation. I said abuse is bad because it starts a cycle (hyperbole). You stated that it doesn't always start a cycle(true), but because you disagree with the latter part of my statement it is implied that you also disagree with the former as well. Uh... she did use him... and she will dump him... so, does it matter what her original intent was? Nope. What does matter is how she handles the dumping part. Because it affects his perception of the relationship, which is what we should be concerned with. Any Yes, when you lie, deceive, use, and eventually hurt somebody, for selfish gain... that's abuse.
blind_otter Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Well, follow the conversation. I said abuse is bad because it starts a cycle (hyperbole). You stated that it doesn't always start a cycle(true), but because you disagree with the latter part of my statement it is implied that you also disagree with the former as well. Semantics. And assumptions - what is implied?? That's BS. You interpreted it that way, but that doesn't make it true. I was responding to the statement that abuse is cyclical. THAT is all. Uh... she did use him... and she will dump him... so, does it matter what her original intent was? HOW did she use him? Sexually? emotionally? I don't see it. Beyond that, it DOES matter what her original intent was. Any Yes, when you lie, deceive, use, and eventually hurt somebody, for selfish gain... that's abuse. When did she lie? When she was trying to make it work, after the bad sex? Look - IMO bad sex is enough to drop someone. There doesn't even need to be any reason beyond that. If you have no sexual chemistry, you can't fabricate it. When did she use him? For money? For emotional support? And isn't that in the eye of the beholder? Where is the selfish gain? What exactly did she gain from this short relationship? Heartache and guilt, AFAIK.
shadowplay Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 He also was tall and lanky with no muscle tone from a sedentary lifestyle. My bf is also like that. He has a great frame and his body could be amazing (I know it was in high school because I've seen pictures), but he takes bad care of himself. He's not overweight, but doesn't work out. It kind of annoys me because I take good care of my body.
shadowplay Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 I'm confused, when exactly did you 1st have sex with him? because on the 30th of january you said this: In this thread you started: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t142946/ I was confused by this as well. Maybe she was in denial?
Storyrider Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Even though he does have AS, he is still an adult and at least somewhat responsible for choosing to get involved with someone he met online. Spookie has not been mindless about this relationship. She's been thinking about her choices the whole time. You can see it in the way she's posted about it on here. Maybe they had sex too soon, but that was also a mutual choice. To me, all the evidence shows that Spookie was trying to follow both her head and her heart in good faith. And she also has issues, just like he does, that distort her thinking at times. Just because she made a mistake doesn't mean she was out to cause pain. She wasn't using him. She honestly thought she liked and wanted him. She is a sensitive person, and very articulate. I think she can find a way to say what she must without wounding him. And perhaps we could help with that. I think that would be more helpful than bashing her. For a start, she could tell him they got physical too quickly, that she's feeling weird, and that she wants to return to friendship status. She doesn't have to tell him the sex turns her off. She could even say she hasn't gotten over her ex and the abortion, which is 100% true, and that she doesn't feel stable enough to be in a relationship.
Arch Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Even though he does have AS, he is still an adult and at least somewhat responsible for choosing to get involved with someone he met online. Spookie has not been mindless about this relationship. She's been thinking about her choices the whole time. You can see it in the way she's posted about it on here. Maybe they had sex too soon, but that was also a mutual choice. To me, all the evidence shows that Spookie was trying to follow both her head and her heart in good faith. And she also has issues, just like he does, that distort her thinking at times. Just because she made a mistake doesn't mean she was out to cause pain. She wasn't using him. She honestly thought she liked and wanted him. She is a sensitive person, and very articulate. I think she can find a way to say what she must without wounding him. And perhaps we could help with that. I think that would be more helpful than bashing her. For a start, she could tell him they got physical too quickly, that she's feeling weird, and that she wants to return to friendship status. She doesn't have to tell him the sex turns her off. She could even say she hasn't gotten over her ex and the abortion, which is 100% true, and that she doesn't feel stable enough to be in a relationship. I thought they met at a library
sunshinegirl Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 For a start, she could tell him they got physical too quickly, that she's feeling weird, and that she wants to return to friendship status. She doesn't have to tell him the sex turns her off. She could even say she hasn't gotten over her ex and the abortion, which is 100% true, and that she doesn't feel stable enough to be in a relationship. Gentleness is called for, to be sure. But be careful that he doesn't hear these as things to overcome. (Him: "That's okay, I'm willing to take it slow") It's going to be hard for her to deliver a definitive "this is over" message when she is trying to minimize the damage to him. The best I can come up with is to try to shoulder as much blame herself as possible - elaborate on the "it's not you, it's me" theme.
Storyrider Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 I thought they met at a library Oh, maybe you're right. My mistake. But much of the initial getting to know each other was conducted online.
Cobra_X30 Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Semantics. And assumptions - what is implied?? That's BS. You interpreted it that way, but that doesn't make it true. I was responding to the statement that abuse is cyclical. THAT is all. I was explaining the miscommunication. I mean seriously you just did the exact same thing... You basically took issue with the fact that I didn't use a word to imply percentage... like sometimes, or often. That means your assuming or implying that I meant Always. Which is not the case. However, I recognize I was not clear in my original statement. In that I apologize! HOW did she use him? Sexually? emotionally? I don't see it. Beyond that, it DOES matter what her original intent was.Yeah... it matters to HER what the original intent was. It doesn't matter to him, because he can't know for truth what she was intending. He will judge by her actions. As such, I'm not going to speak to why she is doing this. Seems to me like the same thing as a basic hump and dump that guys run. The difference here is that the target is someone who may not really be able to handle it easily. Honestly the worst thing she can do right now is continue to date him. When did she lie? When she was trying to make it work, after the bad sex? Look - IMO bad sex is enough to drop someone. There doesn't even need to be any reason beyond that. If you have no sexual chemistry, you can't fabricate it. When did she use him? For money? For emotional support? And isn't that in the eye of the beholder? Where is the selfish gain? What exactly did she gain from this short relationship? Heartache and guilt, AFAIK.That sounds like a personal problem. Libido is pretty much the only thing I have ever encountered that needs to match sexually. If you can't tell if someone is sexually attractive to you... before you have sex... then your doing something wrong. What did she gain? I have some guesses, but with all honesty... it doesn't matter. This whole thing feels like a power trip to me. Maybe that's cause I've watched some friends go through similar stuff, and I know the results.
blind_otter Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 If you can't tell if someone is sexually attractive to you... before you have sex... then your doing something wrong. OK on all other points, thanks for taking the time to clear that up. But on this one -- I've personal experienced this sexual chemistry fake out thing. I've dated a guy who was great in all other aspects - we clicked intellectually, liked the same movies and had similar senses of humor. When we made out it was great, we seemed in synch...but when we had sex, it just wasn't there. He had no rhythm and was way too awkward and clumsy. Maybe "sexual chemistry" isn't the right word....but I can't think of one that IS right...sexual follow-through? Maybe? Inadequate performance???
oppath Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Spookie, you are not guilty of anything or a bad person though I do believe you should use more foresight regarding your dating partners. All i can suggest is to take as much care with him as you can. You are not to blame for hurting him, but you can ease the pain. And people have suggested therapy for you; you are at a university. It is free. Have you ever considered it? I think it would help you with your choices and to leave behind your past.
oppath Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Maybe "sexual chemistry" isn't the right word....but I can't think of one that IS right...sexual follow-through? Maybe? Inadequate performance??? But she was aware that he had never kissed a girl, let alone sex, and she was raving about him sexually last week. In this situation, a little foresight would have told her that sex with him was probably going to be inadequate. It seems less about the performance than the fact that she now realizes she is not attracted to him. With a little foresight, she would have concluded that before sex. I know, because as a guy I have had sex with women I was on the fence about and afterwards I realize "I don't like her all that much." In all of those cases, I knew ahead of time if I really thought about it. If I were with a virgin, I'd spend that time thinking about it. i do have the benefit of experience though on that one.
Author spookie Posted February 11, 2008 Author Posted February 11, 2008 (edited) I think you had romanticized AS boy, so there was no way he could ever continue to be what you imagined. And the reality isn't right for you. But now that your ex is gone, you've romanticized him too. It isn't always a bad idea to romanticize someone, but it does make it harder when things don't work out because your expectations are so high. Someday you'll romanticize someone, and then when you find out who they really are you'll realize that in some ways they are even better, flaws and all, than what you could have imagined. I know I tend to to do this: seek an ideal love in an imperfect world, altering my own reality in order to feel closer to it. I hope that you're right, that one day I do find someone who is better. (Seems so unlikely though). You're probably right. I know I tend to do this: seek an ideal love in an imperfect world, changing reality for myself in order to feel like I'm closer. I hope you're right. I hope that one day I will find someone who is better. (Seems so unlikely though.) did you read the repulse test thread? you should, if you haven't. the way you describe your ex, well, you love all of that because you loved (love?) him as a person and accepted him, flaws and all. here, you should be in a lovey-dovey stage with this guy, and yet somehow he repulses you. surely you can see the huge problem there. his flab might very well end up being there for a long time, but if your heart was there too, chances are you wouldn't notice it much. but you do, so something tells me your heart is definitely not there, even if you might want it to be. Funny you should say this. When I first met my ex, the one superficial thought running through my head was "I wish he was taller." After I fell in love, short guys became the ideal. Funny how that works. I agree that if I were falling for Mr. AS, his flab could very well have been endearing. Spookie, be careful with AS guy. I'd give it one more week. But if you break up with him, make it all about you, and apologize profusely. He is going to be hurt. I bet he is giddy on the inside, and for the first time in his life, he probably feels normal. Be sure to validate him extensively. He will want to feel like he is adequate, lovable, and that your relationship, while very short, was real. I'm serious. You can intensely damage him. Have you been in therapy? Can you see a therapist at your college? I'd go into counseling -- because I do think you could use it and it's free -- and I'd ask "how can I breakup with someone with aspergers." I suspect finally obtaining these things at his age, and finally feeling normal or feeling love for the first time, that he'll feel unlovable and inadequate and deceived. Be sure to validate him and leave him feeling like he has worth!! Oh, spookie. I really don't mean to add to your guilt -- for I certainly believe that you didn't do this on purpose. You took a chance, and for some reason (I agree with the rest that the reason lies within you, although only you can know whether it's the ex or bpd or insecurity or whatever) it didn't work out. There's nothing to be ashamed of that. But guys like that... what you're gonna have to do will crush him. More than the typical guy. Especially since you were the one at least halfway pursuing him. He's gonna wonder what he did wrong, why something so perfect turned into nothing all of a sudden. It's gonna confirm all the insecurities HE has always had about finding a partner, about his desirability to women, about himself in general. It's probably gonna confirm them more than had he never met you. You gotta do what you gotta do. But I really hope that if/when you decide to do it, you do it in a way that he realizes that it wasn't his fault at all, but your honest mistake. If there's a way to do it. For a start, she could tell him they got physical too quickly, that she's feeling weird, and that she wants to return to friendship status. She doesn't have to tell him the sex turns her off. She could even say she hasn't gotten over her ex and the abortion, which is 100% true, and that she doesn't feel stable enough to be in a relationship. Awesome posts Oppath, Elswyth, and Storyrider. This is precisely what I was worried about, and why I decided to post on here. If I do break up with him, I'm going to make sure to make it all about me (which it is, really) and to validate him at all points along the way. I'm confused, when exactly did you 1st have sex with him? We had started messing around (blowjobs etc.) earlier. He's great at all that (using his hands...) and that's why I made those comments. I had no idea actual penetration would be so awkward. Not at all. Spookie is very lonely and lost, and wanted badly to have some anchor in her life, someone to give her stability and love. She was desperately clinging to the idea that AS guy was all that she ever wanted and needed. Her prince charming, someone smart that she could relate to. But it was all wishful thinking. I still believe that love should not be this hard to find. Who made this crap? And as far as AS guy, I'm sure he spent some of the best times in his life next to spookie. Now is time to move on. This rings so true... I know the best times of his life are still ahead. He's just in the awkward teen phase emotionally and sexually, I think. With more practice, he'll get better, and he IS wonderful in many ways so I've no doubt he'll find true love. Edited February 11, 2008 by spookie
Author spookie Posted February 11, 2008 Author Posted February 11, 2008 I was thinking the same thing. You're going to break his little heart. I've done similar things, so I'm not calling you a monster (I'm sorry you interpreted what I said earlier that way). I believe you were well meaning on the surface, while your less savory motivations were subconscious. I think you pursued him for some combination of the following reasons: 1) He was a conquest to you. You found his inexperience and innocence "cute." You liked the feeling of power he gave you, at least at first. I've been in a similar situation where I devirginized a guy and later realized my real motivations. Now that you've accomplished what you sought, his inexperience and passiveness have gone from charming to repulsive in your eyes. Hence your "pussy" comment. Don't kill me for saying this, but I don't believe you ever respected him. Take the way you repeatedly dubbed him a "robot," even if jokingly. I thought that was a little strange. 2) You found him unintimidating. His behavior was more predictable to you because of his Asperger's and need for order. Keep in mind that alternating between devaluing and idealizing is classic Borderline. From Wikipedia's entry on BPD: A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. Don't be so quick to dismiss the possibility that you're Borderline (I have a feeling you will, defensively). From the time I first started reading your threads I've had a hunch that you are, but I didn't want to mention it until I had more evidence. You fit a lot of the traits (again from Wikipedia): A DSM diagnosis of BPD requires any five out of nine listed criteria to be present for a significant period of time. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5] Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats, or self-mutilating behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars, or picking at oneself. Chronic feelings of emptiness, worthlessness. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. That's at least four, plus the idealization/devaluation behavior mentioned above (which was another entry in this list). I won't play the role of armchair psychologist and say you have BPD, but I will say it's pretty damn likely and you should look into it further. Have you ever cut yourself? If you have, that pretty much seals the deal. Even though B4R had told me repeatedly I had this, I had never bothered to look into the symptoms cause the name sounded too psycho for my liking (WTH does "borderline" MEAN?). TBH, that does sound like me. You might as well hilight the "picking at oneself" thing, also. I don't know why I do it (Cause it's fun? I don't think it's to hurt myself) but I systematically and compulsively pick at my face, arms, legs, and chest, squishing out the oil from my pores until there's blood. (Funny that that's a symptom). I'm with b_o about the spectrum, though. I don't THINK it's messing with my life yet, even if I DO have it.
Cobra_X30 Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 OK on all other points, thanks for taking the time to clear that up. But on this one -- I've personal experienced this sexual chemistry fake out thing. I've dated a guy who was great in all other aspects - we clicked intellectually, liked the same movies and had similar senses of humor. When we made out it was great, we seemed in synch...but when we had sex, it just wasn't there. He had no rhythm and was way too awkward and clumsy. Maybe "sexual chemistry" isn't the right word....but I can't think of one that IS right...sexual follow-through? Maybe? Inadequate performance??? Hmm.... when I was younger I dated this girl that was just terrible. Made me feel like a necrophiliac! Didn't make her ugly or unattractive though. Honestly, after a couple months... she got really good. So my attitude is like this. If she isn't good, I can show her how I like it. If I can't do that... that means I'm the one that is lousy. If she refuses to try... then she isn't that into me. But, I've never met a woman that wouldn't try, and they all get better. Shoot, doing it the other way around is like walking into a restaurant and telling the waiter to just give me whatever. Then complaining that the food is not what you like. Seriously... that's just silly.
Author spookie Posted February 11, 2008 Author Posted February 11, 2008 (edited) Last night, after a receiving a paranoid phone call from my mother demanding to know why I turn my phone off every weekend, I decided to come clean to my parents about everything, after YEARS of deceit. I knew that even if I managed to write a coherent email, if I was home alone, I'd never have the balls to click send... so, without even thinking about it, I called Mr. AS. I asked him if I could come over (it was 2 in the morning), telling him I needed his help. He said yes, no questions asked. He helped me draft out the email, edit it for flow and consistency, and click send. Through my tears over my parents, so far away and now committed to reading something in a foreign-to-them language about the mess their first-born had made of her life, he held me; and inside me something for him grew. He turned off the lights. Without TOO many questions regarding limb geography, we had sex. I want to say it was amazing, but it wasn't, it simply wasn't bad, but I didn't want to kill myself afterward either(a change) and i felt satisfied, safe, lying in his arms. Happy and relieved and grateful. So, I'm going to give it a little bit more time. I know it was wrong of me to rely on him for emotional support with all the doubts running through my head, but I think now that the stress of having to lie to my family all the time has lifted, maybe it'll be easier for me to fall in love with someone. And he is such a great guy. Last night, after he was there for me like that, even the flab was lovable. Edited February 11, 2008 by spookie
dropdeadlegs Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 (edited) I should have put a wink on my previous post on this subject. I certainly was kidding and did not mean to make light of something serious. I hope I didn't offend you, b_o. I know it's not something that's "cured", nor funny. But in truth, in my younger years I did do many of the things mentioned. I related to the sex part, the reckless driving, the suicidal tendencies (without overt attempts, mind you) and I am still a compulsive "picker" just like spookie explained. The one that didn't ring true for me was the devaluing involved in relationships I saw therapists and was never diagnosed as having BPD, but I did have some low self esteem and didn't see much value in me. I was impulsive in many ways. I think those traits are common in many young people and that BPD is far deeper than the list of traits can evaluate. The whole thing with this AS guy is unfortunate, but hardly "monster making" material. I probably would have disregarded him based on his condition, and spookie tried to go there in spite of it. While it isn't working out, I see something admirable in that aspect of the situation. spookie, I think you honestly felt that the AS could be something you could live with, but the lack of "penetrating" sexual chemistry is quickly wearing down the interesting aspects of his personality. Learn something from this failed R and break up with him as gently as possible. Maybe that forum could help in some way with going about that if you think you need any help. EDIT: Your update negates some of the above statements. Edited February 11, 2008 by dropdeadlegs
Author spookie Posted February 11, 2008 Author Posted February 11, 2008 I should have put a wink on my previous post on this subject. I certainly was kidding and did not mean to make light of something serious. I hope I didn't offend you, b_o. I know it's not something that's "cured", nor funny. But in truth, in my younger years I did do many of the things mentioned. I related to the sex part, the reckless driving, the suicidal tendencies (without overt attempts, mind you) and I am still a compulsive "picker" just like spookie explained. The one that didn't ring true for me was the devaluing involved in relationships I saw therapists and was never diagnosed as having BPD, but I did have some low self esteem and didn't see much value in me. I was impulsive in many ways. I think those traits are common in many young people and that BPD is far deeper than the list of traits can evaluate. The whole thing with this AS guy is unfortunate, but hardly "monster making" material. I probably would have disregarded him based on his condition, and spookie tried to go there in spite of it. While it isn't working out, I see something admirable in that aspect of the situation. spookie, I think you honestly felt that the AS could be something you could live with, but the lack of "penetrating" sexual chemistry is quickly wearing down the interesting aspects of his personality. Learn something from this failed R and break up with him as gently as possible. Maybe that forum could help in some way with going about that if you think you need any help. EDIT: Your update negates some of the above statements. Thanks DDL. It still might very well end, I just want to give it a little more time for both our sakes. I am very grateful for all the fantastic advice I've received and if it does come to it, I'll be sure to be very gentle and, to the best of my ability, to leave him feeling like he did nothing wrong, it just so happened not to have worked out (which is TRUE, I have as many issues as he does).
Cobra_X30 Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Thanks DDL. It still might very well end, I just want to give it a little more time for both our sakes. I am very grateful for all the fantastic advice I've received and if it does come to it, I'll be sure to be very gentle and, to the best of my ability, to leave him feeling like he did nothing wrong, it just so happened not to have worked out (which is TRUE, I have as many issues as he does). Work on him! Make sure he knows what you like. I think you have the correct perspective on this. I think I was hasty in my earlier assessments. Sorry.
dropdeadlegs Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 spookie, Big, big kudos for coming clean with your parents. That took guts since there might be some fallout, but I hope that the weight on your shoulders will eventually feel "lighter." You are an adult and can make your own choices, not everything has to be revealed to your parents, but there were some things that needed to be said and lies that needed to be fessed up to. I'm proud that you have set the record straight.
shadowplay Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Oh, Spookie. He sounds like such a sweetheart. Give him more of a chance. At least two weeks before you jump ship.
Ariadne Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 he held me; and inside me something for him grew. He turned off the lights. Without TOO many questions regarding limb geography, we had sex. I want to say it was amazing, but it wasn't, it simply wasn't bad..i felt satisfied, safe, lying in his arms. Happy and relieved and grateful. This is great spookie. Maybe this was just a freaking out episode. Sometimes finding the real thing can be very scary and your lights went bam. Take your time and see what happens. Good luck.
underpants Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Spook, I am torn between wanting to hug you and wanting to shake you. To be honest, you and another poster remind me way too much of a long ago former self. So you are like time travel for me. I crinkle my brow when I type this, and let me know if I am wrong. On some level do you need to have a guy/project/subtle savior in your life to make you feel purpose or aim for a direction? If that touches a nerve then good. Let's discuss.
Recommended Posts