Pitboy Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 We went out as kids (18 and 20 years old), but we realized looking back that we were way too young and immature to handle the relationship that we were getting into. She moved back to the east coast and I stayed west. I married another person and had 2 kids, she got married and had 2 kids, and not a word passed between us or any news of the other was known for 18 years. Then through mutual distant links and friends of friends, other peoples office emails and the like, the potential connection was made known. My marriage had already broken down on its own merit, and so had hers. We had a bit of lingering bad Karma from 18 years previous, so I reached out to apologize for these past issues, and was floored to hear her not only surprised by my want to apologize, but that she had felt responsible. A new relationship began. We spoke on the phone from one side of the country to the other for over 4 months, fell madly in love with each other, and eventually we both moved away from what at that time was extremely negative divorce situations involving being forced to not live with our respective children, and came together in a city in the middle of the country to heal from the loss of our ability to live with our children. We stayed there for 2 years, and moved to the town my kids are in. We've been together a total of 8 years now. A powerful bond grew and still exists today, based on mutual love and respect. I say it that way in case anyone responds with "your relationship was based on mutual loss". It wasn't ... it was based on pure love, passion and mutual respect. One main difference in our divorces is the recognition of importance our ex's felt we should have in our kids lives. She initially moved into an apartment close to the kids home. Her ex H did nothing but continue the verbal and emotional abuse she suffered during her marriage, In front of their kids yell at her that she was not their mother, and had no rights to consider herself as such, and screamed at her from the front porch with his new lady friend yelling beside him many rude names and insults, with the kids and the neighbors watching. He would constantly break their Sep Agreement and disallow visitation, and refused all mediation except for full court, which she couldn't afford the time off work, much less lawyers. She is a very quiet and soft person and has never even considered treating someone else like that. She couldn't take it and left for a new life. I did create the avenue for her to leave, I admit that, but the choice was hers to take, and there was full awareness at the time to not "do this" be it our relationship, for escapism reasons. I on the other hand have an ex who is intensely cognizant of our kids need to know and be a part of my life. Abuse was not a part of our marriage, and we have always been able to separate the conversations regarding the kids and "our issues". Apples and oranges we call it. Its been healthy and focussed on the kids best interest. I have never in 8 years missed a child support payment, and she has never limited visitation. 6 years ago my kids communicated to me in only a way a 5 and 6 year old kid could ... they needed me around to be part of their regular life. It was obvious to me and the ex that they wanted and needed my guidance, and were desperate to have me closer. That is why we moved to the town my kids were in, not hers. She recognized this need, and in the most gracious and loving kind of way, she chose to move with me to this new town. Had she asked me not to ... I would not have moved there, our relationship meant that much to me, but I would have stepped up visitation a lot and it would have made life much more difficult. As well, our jobs in the city we were in had kind of dried up, and we both hated the winters there, so a move was in the works anyhow, and a smaller town looked inviting anyway. So we moved (here) 6 years ago. She became an important person in my kids and ex's life, they actually became friends on their own accord, and I gave my kids what they needed, all the while her ex hurtling negativity at her from afar in emails and the like. She feels today she made the right choice. Then a year and a half ago her 16 year old son was shoved out of his fathers home and came to live with us. Her ex threw her now 20 year old out 4 - 5 years ago, and he spent 6 months here recently, so her connection with her own kids is where it should be. A near perfect life you think. All she wanted was a little house we could fix up, so 3 years ago I finished paying off my debts from long ago, and bought one. It was based on my meager income and credit rating alone as she was forced by her ex to declare bankruptcy, and this past summer we renovated ... complete renovation ... to the framing of almost all walls, new kitchen, bathroom etc. I did most of the work myself, and most of it went well, but some of it did not, cabinets took 2 months longer than should have so we lived without a kitchen sink for almost 3 months ... try that some time. Stress levels went up, and she broke down near the end of the reno. I should add that she lives with adult ADD, and also suffers from clinical anxiety based depression, based from stuff when she was a kid. She has been under a doctors care for these issues for years now. As well the 16 year old is also diagnosed with ADHD, as well as some significant OCD issues, but because of her ex's inability to accept that his boys are anything but perfect, it was left totally untreated either medically or therapeutically. Let me add here that I worked in the mental disability / mental illness field for over 12 years, working with and treating people with issues exactly like this, so I know I can say with professional detachment that these issues are real. For both of us, simply put, hes a hard kid to live with, and this summer he was in his "high" mode. As well, my kids (son 11 now, in particular) was around a lot. Add to that stressors at her work. Our "to do" plate was too full, so when she broke down this summer ... she crashed hard. When I realized the severity of the situation within her I changed everything. My kids are old enough now where they have their own friends and lives anyway, so I told them we had to take a break from the every weekend thing, and they agreed. The reno was double shifted and wrapped up as quickly as possible, the 16 year old went back to school, so he calmed down, and calm routine became our way. During this time, I began to see a change in how she was with me. We never fight, we listen to each other, and resolve problems. Our friendship is the most amazing thing I have ever experienced. We enjoy each others company completely. I began to notice a choice for her to not hold my hand, or accept a hug or cuddle. I began to sense a distancing and discomfort, starting in July 07. In October 07 ( 4 months ago), she hits me out of the blue with " I don't love you the same way anymore, your more like a brother, I have absolutely no desire for passion or intimacy with you, and I think it started a couple of years ago." And the damage is done, and she doesn't think she will ever be able to reignite the passion within her. I considered this withdrawal i had noticed, as a symptom of overwhelment due to the extreme situation of the summer, but let me be categorically clear, as I am an unusually observant person to the moods of others, that prior to the summer, there was absolutely no sign of any of this. To say the least my world crumbled under me. I have never been so deeply hurt. The last word has been, " I honestly just don't know, I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no, I simply just don't know". This is the hope I live and operate with. The look on her face is cold and distant. She looks at me with a growing sense of detachment, from the look of a lover to the look of a friend, a much needed and wanted friend, but just a friend none the less. I have given her distance and comfort and maintenance of routine. Initially I took over all cooking cleaning and shopping organizing tasks, and made sure all she had to worry about was work, taking care of her son, and taking care of herself, initially as rest, then getting to therapy 1-1 or group appointments (which initially she constantly forgot about - ADD again), and I will take care of all other functions of the house and family, and work up to 12 hours a night myself. I have kept this up for 4 months now, and just recently she has shown she is able to take on some cooking (couple nights a week). Where in the past we could be defined as rabbits in the bedroom, making love 4-5 times a week for the first 7 years, we have "had sex" 2x in 4 months, after the last time she said "its like kissing a brother". It was then that the 15% chance we had statistically to rekindle our relationship, nosed dived to less than 1%. How do you start a new relationship from that: brother to lover? I now live in quiet grief and loss. The pain is obvious. I slide with seeming effortlessness from denial to anger to depression and back to denial. I always appear to have strength and calm, focusing on the routine of life, and issues of the day with my friend, and burst into tears when totally alone. I will admit that in the last year or so, I was focussed on some of my own stuff, and did not take time to nurture the relationship, and other mistakes, which since then I have recognized, taken responsibility for and have dealt with guilt and shame over some things. I myself have realized that I am actually a relationship codependent person, and am receiving 1-1 and group counseling specific to this and other personal issues. I'm 43 years old and are finally resolving archaic issues of my past, and learning how to be ... in a better way. Throughout all this, the love I have for her has actually grown and matured to not only a recognition of "taking for granted" what I had, but what we could have, which would be beyond anything either of us have ever experienced before. A mature earned relationship that is not simply a result of falling in love but a been there done that relationship that has been to the depths of hell, and started anew, with the attributing factor simply being - a lot of work. The only thing I have told her, is she must have a willingness to try. The commitment I made to her 8 years ago and have held to during all this by way of what I have done to ensure calm and stability in our house since all this started ... all I want is a willingness to try. Now that to me means that although i have suggested and would go to couples counseling when she asks, what I really need to see is a willingness to break past the lock of "brother", and consider the possibility, to consider me a person she could share passion with. To recognize the changes I am going thru and all I have done for her, the house, and her son all thru this, and perhaps build or grow a new passion or place of intimacy with the person I truly am, and let go of the past. I am totally committed to this goal and to this beautiful lady of integrity, honesty and truthfulness. I choose to be with her for many years to come. I am also fully aware of what I must do if she clearly expresses an unwillingness to try. I end it on the spot, and ask her and her son to leave my house, and to make their own way in the world. All I have to give, I would give to them, but I will not live for the rest of my life without passion. That is a finite boundary for me. But I am willing to hold on in this space for a long time until she makes either a decision, or shows change. And I'm talking years here. I am 43, I'll be alive another 43 years or so, I am willing to wait a couple years to be in the most amazing earned relationship of my life. Whats a couple of years compared to a life of happiness? In your responses: don't knock or be unkind towards her ... shes just being honest Don't suggest that she is floating, taking care of her son here, as she would never be able to afford it on her own, so milking it for all its worth ... she is smarter and has much much more integrity than that. I asked her this, and I believe her answer. Don't assume that time will heal ... ... ... you don't see her face or the look in her eyes when she looks at me. It really is that bad. I am Pitboy, and my life is screwed ... for now.
calismostwanted Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 The last word has been, " I honestly just don't know, I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no, I simply just don't know". This is the hope I live and operate with. The look on her face is cold and distant. She looks at me with a growing sense of detachment, from the look of a lover to the look of a friend, a much needed and wanted friend, but just a friend none the less. ( your statement) friend when i read this remind me so much of what my fiance had said to me. this is exactly what i'm going through and living with hope that things will get better. but if both of you are living in the same home and nothing is said , then theres still hope she still loves you. from the sounds of it youre a good man. you a family man. and if she decides not to work on it she will loose something great. this is exactly where i'm at. and i feel your pain. trust me i'm lost as well. but sounds to me there still something to look for. just have to observe things for now and give her time.
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 What you have with her now is the best it will ever be, and it will continue to go downhill from there. The only chance you have at keeping her in your life is to continue being her caretaker. The hot sex at the beginning is something a lot of women do. Its called a bait and switch. They hook you with the incredible sex and when they know they have you to the point where you won't leave they stop and give you either the "I love you like a brother" or the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. They know you will focus on the word 'love' which will continue to keep you in an emotional state where you won't leave. If you were to leave, and she still needs you to take care of her she will simply turn the hot sex back on for a while until she gets you back where she wants you. She does not want a lover. She wants a 'daddy', someone to take care of her. If you are comfortable playing that role, then you will have her in your life for as long as she needs you. Or until she finds a man that she loves in more than a brotherly way, that is. Even then she will probably keep you around in case it doesn't work out with someone new. It sounds calculating and parasitic, but it really is a survival method for a lot of women. Not done to be mean or manipulative but done out of necessity. She really does need someone to take care of her. She just doesn't want to have to give emotionally or physically in order to get that. Its common really. Just ask any guy who is in a sexless marriage or relationship. There are more than a few out there.
sandflea Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 What you have with her now is the best it will ever be, and it will continue to go downhill from there. The only chance you have at keeping her in your life is to continue being her caretaker. The hot sex at the beginning is something a lot of women do. Its called a bait and switch. They hook you with the incredible sex and when they know they have you to the point where you won't leave they stop and give you either the "I love you like a brother" or the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. They know you will focus on the word 'love' which will continue to keep you in an emotional state where you won't leave. If you were to leave, and she still needs you to take care of her she will simply turn the hot sex back on for a while until she gets you back where she wants you. She does not want a lover. She wants a 'daddy', someone to take care of her. If you are comfortable playing that role, then you will have her in your life for as long as she needs you. Or until she finds a man that she loves in more than a brotherly way, that is. Even then she will probably keep you around in case it doesn't work out with someone new. It sounds calculating and parasitic, but it really is a survival method for a lot of women. Not done to be mean or manipulative but done out of necessity. She really does need someone to take care of her. She just doesn't want to have to give emotionally or physically in order to get that. Its common really. Just ask any guy who is in a sexless marriage or relationship. There are more than a few out there. Just called off an engagement because I fell in love with a woman like this. Of course, there were other stressors as well. Even though we've split, she still wants to have meals together, to sleep together, to cuddle and to plan our weekends together. But - no sex. And we're single. I'm like WTF?? Intimacy is a very important part of a thriving, healthy, adult romantic relationship. I simply will not accept the alternative. Hang in there man. It's a tough decision - I know. SF
cj1988 Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 As I read your words I can feel your pain. I am so sorry you are going through this and I hope that you both pull through this soon. I know what it is like to all the sudden live with a stranger, the cold eyes that were once warm and the smile that is no longer there. Do you think she is just really depressed and it will go away or do you see this as permanent? I know that I am still young 41 and will not live everyday with someone that does not or cannot be intimate with me. My H did the same thing over a year ago when I accused him of having an EA and it devistated me ! We are now splitting for a while (my choice) because of this and it seems to be the only thing I can do to not HURT as bad. He is trying NOW to show more and do more, but it may be too late. Maybe she will snap out of it, just try NOT to smother her or push her in anyway or she will get worse ! If you love her, leave her be and maybe even let her go.....that is what I am forced to do,walk away and see what happens, I still love him very much.....the decision was not what I wanted but had to do......only time will tell what the heart feels.....if it is meant to be it will work out, if not ! It wil not !
Author Pitboy Posted February 6, 2008 Author Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) Thank you for your kind responses, it felt good to get it out calismostwanted said but if both of you are living in the same home and nothing is said , then theres still hope she still loves you. but sounds to me there still something to look for. just have to observe things for now and give her time. I am going to believe that ... for now. Time is the one thing I have, and it may be the last gift I have to give. To clarify: she is very clear that she loves me in every way possible but intimately. Snadflea said Intimacy is a very important part of a thriving, healthy, adult romantic relationship. I simply will not accept the alternative. I actually agree completely, there is no way i will spend the rest of my life like this, but for a while, i will. I want to know if she can work past this blockage within her that disallows her to consider it. Without her at least trying to work past that, there will be no long term future. I will not live without passion. cj1988 said Do you think she is just really depressed and it will go away or do you see this as permanent? I know that I am still young 41 and will not live everyday with someone that does not or cannot be intimate with me. I see it as permanent unless she can do the work to get past it. She must desire to try to get past this. I see a snowballs chance in August ... that she can do this. The snowball does melt before it disappears, my hope is that as it starts to melt, she may see what she is letting go of, and will tell herself to rethink . LucreziaBorgia says: The hot sex at the beginning is something a lot of women do. Its called a bait and switch. They hook you with the incredible sex and when they know they have you to the point where you won't leave they stop and give you either the "I love you like a brother" or the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. I appreciate your point, and dont neccessarily disagree with it, but let me reiterate a difference to this female pattern from my letter : "... defined as rabbits in the bedroom, making love 4-5 times a week for the first 7 years, we have "had sex" 2x in 4 months" That is not an exaggeration ... 4 to 5 times a week for OVER 7 YEARSa bait and switch would not go on like this for that long and then end as it did during the summer. She really had a breakdown during the reno, and became clinically depressive and functionally overwhelmed. This change was over days or a couple weeks, not overnight or over months of normal living. Although I value your point and direction Lucreziaborgia, I am going to discount that part for now. Your other points are possibly true though ... after all, I am codependent (and we apparently love to be daddy's, lol) Thank you all for your input, I hope more comes. Something I thought about today: in the past she has been extremely jealous, and couldn't handle me having a platonic friendship with a female, even the positive laughing times with the ex used to bug her and her lack of self esteem and self confidence expected me to have an affair or want to get back with the ex (never a possibility). Over time she accepted my commitment and became ok with stuff like this as she learned to trust me. Recently ( December)I have made a couple very platonic female coffee friends whom I have enjoyed talking to , and not only does she accept this far easier than in the past, but smilingly, jokingly says that I should consider them future girlfriends, and doesn't seem to care that I say truthfully that they are really not my type. She even relates learning processes I have gone through lately as beneficial to my future relationships. Even though I have to fundamentally agree with this, she doesn't realize that one: this hurts, and two: my original intent is that it would be beneficial for HER, and US. We float at less than 1% chance for a future. Edited February 6, 2008 by Pitboy
latefragment Posted February 6, 2008 Posted February 6, 2008 god, that sounds so painful. the part that you said about her saying, "i just don't know" where she wont say yes or no really hurts me. i had the same thing said to me yesterday. also what you said about they way she no longer looks at you the same as before, no longer with longing, that part is probably the toughest to take for me. i feel gutted. i feel immense pain. i am sorry you are feeling the same. and everything you've said at less than 1% really hit home with me, except with me... it like 0%. i hope you feel better too. i'm hurting.
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