Return of the OW

[mtndew]

OWl.

 

So was W willing to understand, or implement the thought of build first, then add on, or engage, with the heart later? Then did she try to make it work and how long for the heart healed enough, maybe a bad choice of words, to truly engage in your M?

 

That's the crux of the biscuit, whether to build the house or not no matter where your heart is. Tough stuff.

[mtndew]

By the way, I've been trying to grab a quote like you guys and add to it. How is it done?

[Owl]

On the quote thing...

 

You can either select the "quote" button at the bottom of the post that you wish to quote from, and then edit what you want to quote so that you grab just what you wanted...

 

Or you can copy and past what you want to quote, and then put [ quote ] (without the spaces) in front of the quoted area and [ / quote ] at the end. This is how I usually do it, so I can put in specifically what I want in the quoted area.

 

 

In my situation, my wife didn't buy into the "decision first" idea at first. What DID prompt her to try was the realization that I had set boundaries in what I was going to accept in my life. I was NOT willing to be "just friends" with her in my life. She was my wife...I loved her...and I would have never been comfortable being around her if she was with another man. Nor was I willing to sit around and wait while she made up her mind.

 

So bluntly, after about a month of an "in house seperation" where she was getting ready to move out on her own (and to resume her relationship with OM), things came to a head.

 

I told her point blank that I wasn't going to be a part of her life going forward if she chose to be with OM. She wanted to move out and "find herself"...much like you were doing. But her plan was to resume her relationship with him. When she told me that her lease would be for a year and she was ok with that...I went to the lawyer and got information on how divorce worked in our state. I shared that with her...I made it clear that if she wanted to 'seperate' for a year, then we were divorcing, and I was no longer going to be in her life. In ANY fashion. Not as a friend, not as a backup plan...if she wanted to be with OM, then she wasn't going to be with me. PERIOD.

 

She hadn't truly thought about life without me in ANY fashion. She'd been convinced that we'd all end up "good friends"...and that our kids would have some kind of "three way family". Nope...wasn't going to happen. The kids HATED OM for coming between us...and they were so angry with her it was crazy. She'd thought she'd live with or near OM, and the kids would be with her to visit within a few weeks...the kids told her that they weren't leaving our area or leaving me on my own (they were worried about me)...so if she went, she'd be without them for the next year at least.

 

She was suddenly faced with harsh reality...that being with OM meant destroying our family, meant losing me COMPLETELY.

 

And she realized that I was serious in my boundary on this.

 

She broke down, realizing that she didn't want to lose me. Didn't want to spend all that time without the kids.

 

She chose to work on things with me instead of going with OM.

 

It took probably another two months before she realized that the counselor was completely right...that until that choice to stay, to work on things was made...NOTHING would have gotten better between us.

 

As I've mentioned...we're over three years past all of this now.

 

Realize that if you change nothing...nothing changes. You can't expect anything to change unless you DECIDE TO CHANGE IT FIRST.

[mtndew]

How old were your kids? Any long term repurcussions with their relationship w/W? How are they now?

 

Through all of this, many positives have taken place. And changes have occurred and will hopefully continue. And I just keep rehashing this stuff over and over. The dilemna remains, can I go NC w/OW, get that out of the equation, then can I give the M the ol college try, full boat? Too bad we can't defrag our brains and delete all of the unnecessary bs that plugs up our cells. But then on the other hand, it is these files who make us who we are.

[Owl]

How old were your kids? Any long term repurcussions with their relationship w/W? How are they now?

 

Mid and older teens at the time. Old enough to have had some say in where they wanted to live if it had gone on to divorce. Short term, the boys mostly forgave their mom shortly after she clearly made her choice to stay and work on things...it took our daughter a few months to come around. Now, they're all young adults, and all are doing well. We have a great relationship with them for the most part (went with the boys last night to see Jumpers, for example). Our daughter is living where she's not able to interact with us much...but that's her thing, and up to her, since she's an adult now.

 

Through all of this, many positives have taken place. And changes have occurred and will hopefully continue. And I just keep rehashing this stuff over and over. The dilemna remains, can I go NC w/OW, get that out of the equation, then can I give the M the ol college try, full boat? Too bad we can't defrag our brains and delete all of the unnecessary bs that plugs up our cells. But then on the other hand, it is these files who make us who we are.

 

My marriage is better now than it was pre-affair. It sucks to think about all the pain and heartache we went through during her affair...was it worth it to get to the changes we've made? Not totally sure...the pain was far, far more than I can describe. But we are where we're at...and things are good now. No reason to dwell on that pain, ya know?

 

The dilemna remains, can I go NC w/OW, get that out of the equation, then can I give the M the ol college try, full boat?

 

Here's the deal...its not "CAN"...its "WILL YOU". The absolute reality is...you CAN. IF you make the choice to go NC...IF you take the full measures you need to take to safegaurd yourself and your marriage...you absolutely CAN.

 

The question is...WILL YOU?

 

You have to realize its not a "can" or "can't". You have to DO. Or DO NOT.

 

Again...own your choices and actions.

[mtndew]

Update, another week of being out of the house has passed. W has been cordial on most things, however she is still making disturbing comments, like talk to an attorney, still questioning me on why I am dressed like I am, in good clothes not tshirt and jeans meaning I have some place to go or someone (OW) to meet, and so on. My mind seems to be somewhat clearer on some things, not as concerned with OW. Have had NC with OW in over a week and am getting a great amount of work done and detail work cleaned up and filed. Am sleeping better, less stressed, and feel good. I have been on some meds for 5 months supposedly to help with "focus". I have now been off of them for 2 weeks, my choice, and feel better than when on them.

 

Now my problem, the comments made by W and some inside info that I have received tell me W is not making much progress. Am I wrong to think she would think of changes in both of us to make M work at this early stage of seperation? To be honest, I know what I did was wrong, but the things she is doing and saying to EVERYONE she comes in contact with are not the things I believe conducive in wanting to increase my desire to return home and rebuild the M. I have been putting together a list of things that have concerned me about W and our M. If and when the time is appropriate and I have decided the best decision is to move back home, I will request a "date" with W, give her my list and ask her to do the same in return. Then hopefully we can have another "date" to discuss moving forward. I guess however I have her over a barrel by not saying I am moving back for sure at some point and she has me over a barrel because she has control of the kids. Am i nuts for looking at it this way or is there so much anger and resentment built up in her that she can't see what she is doing does little to make me want to even try to return?

[Owl]

Now my problem, the comments made by W and some inside info that I have received tell me W is not making much progress. Am I wrong to think she would think of changes in both of us to make M work at this early stage of seperation? To be honest, I know what I did was wrong, but the things she is doing and saying to EVERYONE she comes in contact with are not the things I believe conducive in wanting to increase my desire to return home and rebuild the M.

 

What is she saying? Doing? Telling everyone about the affair?

 

 

 

I have been putting together a list of things that have concerned me about W and our M. If and when the time is appropriate and I have decided the best decision is to move back home, I will request a "date" with W, give her my list and ask her to do the same in return. Then hopefully we can have another "date" to discuss moving forward. I guess however I have her over a barrel by not saying I am moving back for sure at some point and she has me over a barrel because she has control of the kids. Am i nuts for looking at it this way or is there so much anger and resentment built up in her that she can't see what she is doing does little to make me want to even try to return?

 

Why should she WANT to work on the marriage now? You've betrayed her, hurt her beyond anything that she's ever felt before, more than likely. Why should she want that back?

 

What have you done to show her that being married to you is worth it?

 

I'm not busting you up...I'm pointing out the flaw in your thinking. You're not seeing this from her side of things.

 

Would you want you back after all of this? Have you thought about what will have to happen in order for you and your wife to reconcile? What would it take to make her want you back? To trust you again? And the REAL question...are you willing to put in the effort to do this?

 

Not all BS's want to reconcile after infidelity. I did...many do. Some don't. Sometimes the pain, the betrayal...its too great to "get over". If you want her to consider rebuilding with you...what are you doing to show her its worth it for her to do so?

 

She probably does have a lot of anger and resentment...and hurt, and devestation, and a host of other emotions going on right now.

 

If you want to understand what she's going through, go pick up the book "Surviving an Affair"...and read where it talks about what the BS goes through.

 

I understand your concern about how things are going to go forward. You've got to remember something...its up to HER now to decide if she wants you or not...its not a one-sided equation any longer. Hopefully, she will decide she wants to reconcile...and if she does, then the two of you need to work out a gameplan for dealing with all the issues.

 

Again, hope you don't take this as an attack...its not meant as one. If you want to recover...you need to see things from HER viewpoint too. Make sense?

[mtndew]

Owl,

 

thanks for all of the input, I must have bored everyone else because no one else is throwing anything in and no it doesn't bother me to get ripped, everyone needs someone to call bs on them from time to time.

 

Now, she is saying things about what I am doing, carrying on the big A, ignoring my kids, being hostile toward her and so on to everyone she can. I have been warned from a couple of friends who have told me such info. None of which is true. She is also not telling me things I need to know, like my kid got to read a piece for a school program the other day, and she did not tell me about it. I heard how well he did from another mother. He tried out for kids baseball the other day and has yet to tell me what team he will be on. All of the others already know.

 

Why would she want me back? If i do what i stated my purpose was in moving out to begin with, which was to get enough space to think clearly and reasonably, to get my work and work related issues, a year worth of filing and catching up done, plus a little rest and relaxation, put enough time between for the effects of the EA to die, then I would return a different, better individual, better husband, I was already a great dad, but yes even a better dad, and a better suited provider. That I am currently doing and having NC with OW for the last 7 days, once since the project that crossed the line in the sand was completed. On the downside, like in my last post, I know she is hurt and I am giving her no buying signs about moving back in the house until I know for sure that is what I want to do. But as much as I avoid the chatter surrounding us, there are things I hear that do not make me want to do anything except stay on with course and not steer the new improved version of me back home.

 

Sometimes you have to tear down an old house on a great piece of dirt and build your dream home. Maybe I am slowly seeing the dirt wasn't worth that much to begin with. Maybe I just can't see the dirt for the weeds.

[OWoman]

Now my problem, the comments made by W and some inside info that I have received tell me W is not making much progress.

 

 

mtndew, your W has not made much progress against your expectations.

 

What "progress" have you made against hers?

 

Perhaps, like you, she's holding out until she sees recognisable signs of the kind SHE wants to see, before she's prepared to make "progress" towards what YOU'D like to see. This might be a Chinese stand-off, with both of you so busy watching the other for signs before you make a move towards the other that you lose any inclination to want to do so.

 

You said your mind is clearer - have you decided whether or not you want to make a go of your M?

[Owl]

Mtndew, does it occur to you that you're judging her right now on her merits as to whether or not you want to move back and try again...WHILE SHE'S AT HER WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT IN HER LIFE?

 

Think about this for a minute. I wouldn't want to live with most BS's right after d-day. They're on the emotional rollercoaster ride from he!!. She doesn't know right now if she loves you, or hates you. It changes, moment to moment. She loves YOU...but hates WHAT YOU'VE DONE.

 

And trying to seperate those two, conflicting opposites is probably driving her crazy.

 

How could you possibly want to live with this madwoman right now???

 

You CAN'T.

 

But...you need to recognize it for what it (most likely) is...a temporary state, brought on by your choice to have an affair.

 

Right now, she's got the exact same doubts about you.

 

The only way to KNOW what to do from here is to make the changes that you need to make...identify the things that you feel she needs to change...get a nuetral third party to help the two of you negotiate them...and then TRY.

 

And...you need to recognize that your recent actions will have created a whole new set of needs that she'll require from you. Any desire for "space" on your part is an unreasonable expectation for a good time after d-day, for example.

 

My suggestion is this...don't setup a 'date' with her.

 

Instead, set up sometime to TALK with her, in a setting where the two of you will be able to control your anger and hurt with each other, and start discussing where the gaps are, what you're both feeling, and just start to see those aspects. No expectations on either side for recovering or not.

 

BUT, this will require up front, 'brutal' honesty on both parts about what you're feeling and dealing with...and a preparedness on both parts to LISTEN AND HEAR what the other person says without judgement or anger.

 

Make sense?

[mtndew]

Makes perfect sense. I know my anger or my rationalizing the big EA, came from the years of not being able to tell her exactly how I felt for fear of getting verbally beat down or on the other extreme fear of hurting her. Now I've taken the hurt to level no one ever thought I could. We have a joint MC session, our first since I left the house, in about an hour. I am sure these issues will be brought up and discussed. Any wise tips on how to handle the session other than with grace, no anger and complete honesty?

[openingup]

Hi mtndw -

 

Just read through the thread and have a few suggestions from my own experience to add, with the hope that they'll be helpful. . .

 

From an outside (female) perspective, it does seem as if your OW is not particularly interested in pursuing a relationship, especially considering she hasn't contacted you for a week knowing that you've left home (and no doubt strongly suspecting that you've done so because of her.)

 

To be fair, this could also be fear on her part - cold feet, guilt, second thoughts. She may be distancing herself from you because she doesn't want to feel responsible for breaking up your marriage when she may not be sure that you're what she wants. (i.e. what if you've left your family and a few months down the line, you aren't what she expected and it will all have been for naught.) At this point, you can actively pursue her and convince her, or play it cool and hope she comes back when the adrenaline wears off.

 

As far as your W goes . . . what a mess that situation is, not that this is news to you. Honestly, I don't think you want to go back to her. I think you don't want to hurt your kids and you don't want your life to be in limbo. Fair enough - who does? Question is: would going back be worth it?

 

As someone in a long-term marriage, I can almost guarantee she'll take you back. She's hurt, yes. She's pissed off, yes. But . . . she wants to "win" over the OW, yes. She will also make you suffer. If you go back, go knowing you're going to be the bad guy for longer than you ever thought possible. The term "whipping boy" comes to mind.

 

Counseling. Good grief, have you ever known anyone who went for MC who didn't eventually split up anyway? In my experience, it's a placebo for the spouse who's being left. He/she wants to believe the relationship can be fixed or wants the counselor to tell the cheating spouse how awful he is and validate their opinion. My sister and best friend both went the counseling route, eventually divorced, then described the whole experience as the biggest waste of time, money and energy they'd ever had. (But if they hadn't done it, they would have been criticized for "not trying." )

 

Just my opinion, but by the time you need a total stranger to run interference in your relationship, it's over. Give yourself some credit for having common sense. Don't buy the therapist a new Jaguar then divorce anyway just so you can say you tried.

 

My advice is: don't try to "go home." You're not happy there, the relationship is in shambles and if you try to reconstruct it you'll wind up with a surface facsimile of a marriage that will be worse than before. You'll die inside and wind up hating your wife and yourself. Just go. If the OW comes back, great. If she doesn't, you're well out of something that was making you crazy.

 

Best of luck, and don't take all the haters' posts to heart. It's very hard to be conflicted and heartsick and very easy to judge when you're not involved . .

Edited February 26, 2008 by openingup
typo

[mtndew]

It's been nearly 2 weeks since the last post and things have settled into a routine. W is struggling with all kinds of things, some normal, some obsessive, like she just knows OW and myself are seeing, talking, texting each other on a regular basis, which is so far from the truth. There has been NC in the past 3 weeks with none on the foreseeable horizon. It has come to my attention that there is a really good possibility that a close friend of W has made contact with OW thru her sister. To what extent I don't know which would also help explain why NC has been quite easy. It still hurts but I know it is for the best. I am continually working on myself and work as I stated the purpose for moving out and I have made good strides on all fronts. I also explained to W that if she wanted me to totally forget about OW, quit bringing her up.

 

Now the question. If it does come to factual light that W threatened any kind of action to OW, who does not deserve any threats, how do i deal with it? Do I address W and say that as long as you do things like this, I do not want to return home or to any relationship with her because of bad actions and besides as time progresses the desire for contact is going away. Any other suggestions?

 

Somedays I think, you know, it may be time to consider moving home, but W will do or say something that reminds me of exactly why I moved out to begin with. Am I crazy for thinking I may be ready to go back, but she hasn't done all she needs for me to return and be happy about the changes?

[Jackson2008]

 

Now the question. If it does come to factual light that W threatened any kind of action to OW, who does not deserve any threats, how do i deal with it? Do I address W and say that as long as you do things like this, I do not want to return home or to any relationship with her because of bad actions and besides as time progresses the desire for contact is going away. Any other suggestions?

 

You're in la la land right now because of your emotioal affair. OW was involved with a married man and even kissed him (or open herself to it), why in the world is she so innocent and does not deserve any threats? As an outside party, I can tell you that your current logical thinking is very clouded.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Jackson2008

[whichwayisup]

If it does come to factual light that W threatened any kind of action to OW, who does not deserve any threats, how do i deal with it? Do I address W and say that as long as you do things like this, I do not want to return home or to any relationship with her because of bad actions and besides as time progresses the desire for contact is going away. Any other suggestions?

 

You put your WIFE in this situation, yet you're protecting the OW.

 

Look, obviously your wife isn't stupid and she doesn't trust you. What are YOU doing to make yourself trustworthy in your wife's eyes? You're treating HER like she is the bad guy here. You seem to forget that you're the one who cheated, not your wife, yet you won't come home until SHE changes her attitude?

[Owl]

WWIU is right.

 

Your wife has no reason to believe or trust that you're not in contact with OW. You moved out...so now she can't "SEE" that you're in NC with OW. You can't blame her for not believing you. You've set a track record as a liar and a cheat (for now), and now that you're moved out, she can't see that you're no longer behaving that way.

 

If you want her to trust you again, you have to EARN that trust, by SHOWING her that you're trustworthy. There are ways that you can, with time, rebuild her trust in you. When you decide to do so.

 

As far as protecting OW from BW...while you may feel that she doesn't deserve any kind or repercussions from your wife, obviously its very possible that your wife feels otherwise. As far as "how do I deal with it"...you're in a bad spot. Choose to protect OW, and you'll further alienate your wife and continue to erode the chance for trust to be rebuilt and hope for reconciliation. Choose to ignore the situation, and OW may well end up harassed by your wife, in her quest to find out the truth of the whole situation. These are all consequences of the affair...

 

I have to say, I'm impressed. Its RARE that a WS moves out on his own and truly does go NC with OW...very rare. The vast majority of the time, contact is even MORE frenzied during that time due to the sudden 'availability' of the WS to the OP.

 

So...you're 3 weeks into your time to sort things out...what conclusions are you coming to?

[mtndew]

Conclusions:

 

Thinking or thoughts on many different levels are becoming clearer. I was in a pseudo partnership on a business level with a guy for nearly 10 years, but due to the financial setup of the business, which involved my father-in-law, he left to pursue solo opportunies. We were very good at what we did together. He and I have had some great talks and are going to rejoin to pursue projects together. Needless to say, maybe this is my chance to square back up with him, to right the wrongs and to do what we were originally intended to do.

 

I have concluded that as much as I wanted to, and to a degree still want to, get to know OW, it is of little positive good. It is so much like a drug that will consume you if you let it.

 

I have concluded that I still have a lot of work to do. W and I have had several really good conversations concerning where we are, how we got here, etc. In my mind, I feel she still has work to do. I know I have crushed her, and I know you guys are all on board that I am the bad guy. She is consistently making disparaging remarks mixed in with the positive ones that concern me. I know I was the one to have the EA and to move out. But there was so much buildup for 20 years that she is kicking herself for. Take out the OW. If I would have gotten to this point without her, and finally decided I had had enough and moved out, would I still be the bad guy? And yes we have been thru 15 years of counseling to the tune of who knows how much. When is enough enough? So if I was at that point which I have discussed in earlier posts, and OW was the one responsible for getting me to see enough as enough, and now we have gone NC, will I always be the bad guy? There are many, many people friends and family that have told me how they saw our relationship and are telling me to hold my ground, don't back down, that I put up with so much garbage for years upon end, that I am a much happier, open, person from just a year ago.

 

Thoughts?

 

Oh, as far as the threats, we live in a very small, big town. The circle of influence here is tight, the degree of seperation between people is about a 2. So if OW is out of the picture, what good would it do for W and friends to possibly setup some confrontation with her. The only thing I see it doing in the end is making us all look like idiots. Most of all W and her friends.

Edited March 10, 2008 by mtndew
Addition

[Owl]

15 years of counseling, and things are still horrible?!?!?

 

 

That sounds like you've had some TERRIBLE counselors!

 

That, or neither of you put any effort into applying what the counselor tried to help you with. A GOOD counselor should have had you two working on specific areas, with action plans and goals towards making improvements. If you've not dealt with a counselor like that, you might consider actaully interviewing counselors until you find one that does, and try working with them.

 

If your wife is "kicking herself" right now, perhaps this EA may be a catalyst for real change in her...for the first time in years.

 

Or perhaps not...things may not ever get better. Not every marriage is salveagable. If things aren't going to get better after you've both put your best effort into it, then ending your marriage and moving on does make sense.

 

Right now, you need to decide if you're going to try working on the marriage or not. If you do decide to, then there are several good counseling plans that might help...marriagebuilders is one I can think of offhand. If you decide that 'enough is enough'...then seek a lawyer and end it.

[mtndew]

I have been seeing a counselor that is all mine and he is great. He thinks what I am doing is great and he has seen great strides. He is really helping me see things from an objective view more clearly. Our M counselor has been the counselor of choice for W's family since before me and knows all of the deepest darkest things about 3 generations, such as molestation, multiple divorces, affairs, suicide, cancer, overbearing matriarch. W had more baggage coming into the M than most couples do in a lifetime. . I knew that going in but thought my consistent low key personality would fix that. But I was the one who did most of the changing, good and bad. W is in with a ladies group headed by our MC once a week and I think that it is helping her see things from different perspectives than her gossiping "friends". So now I am fixing me first, then we'll see what happens.

[Owl]

Fixing yourself is a good thing, Mtndew.

 

One word of caution for you. IC's (individual counselors) have completely different objectives than MC's (marriage counselors). I know...no shock to you there.

 

But here's the thing. An IC is ONLY about making the person seeing them feel better/work on their issues. VERY OFTEN, IC's will give advice that is completely opposite of any advice you'd get from a qualified MC. The MC's goal it to rebuild the RELATIONSHIP first. That often does mean working on yourself as part of that...but their ultimate goal is helping the two of you fix the damage done to your marriage.

 

Given the different focus/goals...you get opposite/conflicting advice.

 

So you need to be aware of that likelihood as you go into your IC (and the same thing applies to your wife in IC as well). Just because a specific counselor has been with you forever doesn't mean that they're the best possible choice for you. They know the history, but they still may not have the tools that you need to fix things. What's the methodology that this MC has used to help the two of you improve your marriage?