Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 Here was the original message I was replying to: What idiot spends $300 on a first date? Maybe I could understand if you were absolutely stunning. But even then most likely not. Don't tell me that it didn't raise a red flag for you. You said you offered to pay, but you also felt it was his duty to pay since he asked. You should have been more insistent on having a more affordable dinner. But it seemed like you went along for the ride and got the nice dinner. And then when he wanted something in return you were offended. You both sound like users, but you were the smarter one since you let a clearly desperate guy ($120 for a wine bottle on a first date!!!!!) go all out to treat you.
Jilly Bean Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I was refering more precisely to the two hours grope fest. Up until then, the guy might have only been perceived as eager. I mean, we've all been exposed to the philosophy that says a man who is into you will pursue relentlessly. But to me, there is something akin to blaming the rape victim for walking home after dark in some of the replies that she got about the groping. In policing her behavior, and women's in general, let's not forget to make him accountable for his actions. I gotcha, girl. I guess I don't perceive his behavior as "eager", as interested and pursuing is one thing, but he threw up a ton of red flags prior to the grope fest that made him smack of unstable. Point is, considering everything else he exhibited, I most definitely would not have let him into the house. Period. Agreed no means no, but you also, as a woman, need to make smart choices to begin with. Renee - again, I would tell him the ex is moving back in. I think it's critical that he knows a man is living in your house. If not, then I would expect him to continue his antics.
Els Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Blimey - its hardly a crime to invite a man you dont know so well into your house is it?? Happens ALL the time where I live. The only bit of behaviour that sounds unusual to me is the nice phone calls, the lovely dinner, the decent aoplogy and the trip. His hands all over you - either every man I have ever really been with has been disrespectful or its normal. If you feel smothered by it then I guess he is not for you. x Every man you have been with is disrespectful. Assuming you protested like Renee did, at least.
lindya Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) I started writing three times last night to say something along the lines that it can be very difficult to assert yourself when someone isn't listening to your boundaries but couldn't quite put it into words until you posted this. I agree with you. He should have stopped the first time you said no and asked him to leave. I feel like you were accused for something that was largely out of your control. I agree with this. It nods to the reality of being a woman who's perhaps made an unwise or unfortunate dating decision...and has found herself in a vulnerable situation as a result. It's all very well to blame a woman for not being clear enough about her boundaries. For most men, "no" and "stop" mean exactly that....and in those cases the make-your-boundaries-clear advice is absolutely fine. In fact, your normal, decent guy probably doesn't need an explicit "no". The chances are he's alert to any non verbal signals you give that he needs to cool it. For a rapist, however, your very firm "No" might well be just the signal he's waiting for to open up hostilities. Even if that's not the case, I suspect that many women who have been raped probably felt inhibited, in the lead-up to it, in setting out their boundaries too assertively - for fear that their assertiveness might be deemed as aggression that would challenge the male and lead to him responding more aggressively to her. All a woman can rely on, if she finds herself alone and being groped by a man she feels unsafe and potentially in serious conflict with, are her instincts. When analysed by people on a message board (or, indeed, by a jury) instinctive reactions might seem totally illogical....but instincts often do keep us as safe as we can possibly be, in tricky situations with people who don't adhere to the usual rules of conduct To the OP. You're not alone in a room with this guy now. You can afford to be clearer and blunter in saying "No" to any further involvement with him. And I agree with the rest of the board. He really doesn't sound like a stable, reasonable person to get into any sort of relationship with. Edited February 2, 2008 by lindya
Little Shy Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 This guy is too pushy & weird and that's not your fault. I would bail on him for sure. Just cause a guy has money & wants to spend it on you dosen't mean he is a great guy, or could be a catch. The worst relationship I ever had hands down, was my first one, when my bf showered my constantly with flowers, expensive dinners, jewelry & vacations. But he was a freaking psychopath loaded with problems. Everytime I tried to break up with him, he'd show up with a ring or book a trip to Hawaii. A loser guy with alot of money knows this is his "edge" so he'll drop the dough hoping you'll be blinded by the windfall of crap & not see how defective he is. Not saying because a guy has money, that makes him a psychopath though, I'm sure their are plenty of guys out there with ample money that are just great. Here's my bit of advice though...even if you are out with a really nice guy next time, and not a freak show like this, maybe skip the martini or martini's after dinner. You had a nice bottle of wine at dinner, right? Why hit a bar afterwards and throw a bunch of booze on top of that? I would never, ever have martini's on a first date with a man I don't know. As far as I am concerned, martini's are for nights out with the girls, where everyone is looking out for each other, in case one of the 3 1/2 shots involved in an innocent little martini should get to someone's head. I think everyone thinks the little martini is so sexy & sheik in it's delicate stemmed glass delivery. You might as well be throwing back 3 shots of Tequila back to back. Would you do that on a first date? Remember that Sex in the City episode, when Miranda was all giddy because she had just got a promotion or something exciting like that, and was out to dinner on a first date with that hot guy, and she had 2 or 3 martini's? She let him in when they got home, she made a huge pass at him, woke up in the morning with hazy recollections of the night before, and found the post it note left by her date with the number of Alcoholics Anonymous on it. I'm going to bet that if you had refused the trip to the bar after the restaurant, and told him you had to be up early for work the next day, the date would have ended at your front door. What do you think? FYI, I do like to drink myself, but I think you need to be careful that you are in good hands/company when you begin drinking hard alcohol out amongst 'em.
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 I'm going to bet that if you had refused the trip to the bar after the restaurant, and told him you had to be up early for work the next day, the date would have ended at your front door. What do you think? FYI, I do like to drink myself, but I think you need to be careful that you are in good hands/company when you begin drinking hard alcohol out amongst 'em. An interesting theory and while I can't say difinitively that the outcome would have been any different, I can assure you I wasn't drunk. However, my friend and I talked about it the next morning and I was just damn lucky I didn't get drunk because the outcome most surely would have been far worse. So I think you have good advice here and an important reminder of the importance of being careful!
tanbark813 Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 This guy sounds like a psychopath. This is exactly what I was thinking.
TheSilentType Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Lol I edited out so as not to be too harsh on you. But it would have helped explain why I thought you were also a user. And no, you don't anyone anything. But clearly when someone spends $120 on a first date for a bottle of wine and you're not gracing the cover of Victoria Secret, then he has an agenda beyond just basking in your good company. How can you not see that? Always keep first dates simple even when you're expecting the guy to pay.
Little Shy Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Hey Renee, me thinks you have a higher tolerance than me, so good for you. 1 and 1/2 martini with nothing else to drink, and I have no business being out in public anymore. Every heard that quote from Dorothy Parker? "I like to drink martinis. Two at the most. Three, I'm under the table, Four I'm under the host."
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 How do you know I'm not gracing the cover of VS? Kidding, totally kidding. At the point where he ordered the wine, I did think it was over the top and I was somewhat concerned, which is why I offered to pay. But what exactly was I supposed to do, tackle the waiter and demand the $30 bottle of wine? I just don't think it makes me a user. I am financially stable and not looking for a meal ticket. And I hardly think a $300 dinner or a $1000 dinner for that matter entitles anyone to have their way with me. If that were the case, I may as well be in a different profession.
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 Hey Renee, me thinks you have a higher tolerance than me, so good for you. 1 and 1/2 martini with nothing else to drink, and I have no business being out in public anymore. Every heard that quote from Dorothy Parker? "I like to drink martinis. Two at the most. Three, I'm under the table, Four I'm under the host." LOL. I'll have to remember that.
Little Shy Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 By the way The Silent Type, why do you keep mentioning that if Renee, or any girl for that matter isn't good looking enough, they won't be worth dropping cash on? So if a girl is smoking hot, like Victoria secret model hot, she is worth dropping cash on, but not if she is just average hot? Wonder if she's not hot at all, but just got a great personality? Do you take her to Mc Donald's then, on your first date? Just curious. If you are really that jerky & piggish, I think you need to remove that fuzzy little bear/puppy animal from your establishing picture there. It is very confusing. It leads one to think you are a gentle being. Maybe you should put a picture of a serpent or a mountain lion up in that tree. Please Identify what that fuzzy little animal in the tree is, because I am concerned for it's safety if it is in your presence I am going to call animal control straight away.
Jilly Bean Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Do you take her to Mc Donald's then, on your first date? Maybe Souplantation.
Little Shy Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I doubt he'd spring for SP. Wonder if the girl requested a balloon animal? "Alright! I guess you can have one, but only because, you did make page #6 in July 2005 Victoria's Secret catalog! Geeez!"
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 By the way The Silent Type, why do you keep mentioning that if Renee, or any girl for that matter isn't good looking enough, they won't be worth dropping cash on? So if a girl is smoking hot, like Victoria secret model hot, she is worth dropping cash on, but not if she is just average hot? Wonder if she's not hot at all, but just got a great personality? Do you take her to Mc Donald's then, on your first date? I have been wondering this myself, how his agenda could have been different depending on how "hot" I am? And Jilly, I totally want to go to Soup Plantation one of these days, per the other thread. LOL! We should all go....
Pyro Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Maybe Souplantation. :lmao: Only if you enjoy living near the Ozarks.
TheSilentType Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Wonder if she's not hot at all, but just got a great personality? Do you take her to Mc Donald's then, on your first date? Absolutely. It's the dollar menu for her at McDonald's...and she would be the one paying. Just because I point out the harsh way the world works doesn't mean I endorse that! They're observations....don't shoot the messenger. Look at all the sports stars, celebrities....are their wives necessarily homely? Anyways, I don't want to thread hijack and get into another whole topic. But let me say this... Its just my feeling that desperate guys would go all out for a really stunning woman than your average decent looking lady. First of all their desperate and second of all how often does any guy really date a stunning woman? So its just my feeling they would go all out even if it was only to keep her attention.
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 So how exactly can one tell the fine line between trying to impress a girl and prelude to a date rape? I have had plenty of nice dinners on the first date that progressed into other dates but did not set up the expectation of sex. The only difference here was this guy seemed to have no problem blowing money. And let's not forget the trip to Grand Cayman that he was literally trying to book. Crazy!
Little Shy Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 The Silent Type, I am not interested in shooting the messenger. Just removing the fuzzy, puppy-bear, tree hugging thing, that is still unidentified from his care/possession. Please give me your home address ASAP.
lindya Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Absolutely. It's the dollar menu for her at McDonald's...and she would be the one paying. Just because I point out the harsh way the world works doesn't mean I endorse that! They're observations....don't shoot the messenger. Look at all the sports stars, celebrities....are their wives necessarily homely? Anyways, I don't want to thread hijack and get into another whole topic. But let me say this... Its just my feeling that desperate guys would go all out for a really stunning woman than your average decent looking lady. First of all their desperate and second of all how often does any guy really date a stunning woman? So its just my feeling they would go all out even if it was only to keep her attention. A woman doesn't have to be be stunning or instantly available for sex in order for a man to put a bit of effort into impressing her. All that needs to happen is that he's attracted to her big time. If you seriously believe nobody ever crushes on a woman unless she's got catalogue covergirl looks, you're spending too much time reading celeb magazines and not enough time paying attention to what actually happens in the real world.
Jilly Bean Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Oh, this is ridiculous! I had a date last week with a guy who took me to THE most exclusive and expensive place in town. Final bill? (I peeked). $314. His pay back at the end of the night? A nice hug and a mutual kiss on the cheek. He just happens to be wealthy, and yes, perhaps trying to impress me with said weath. He also happens to be classy enough to not assume it buys him anything...
Author renee_1977 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 Update #1: He just called. Left me a message on my cell just "wanting to know how your weekend is going". I am keeping a journal in case I end up cut up in a million pieces. I shouldn't joke about that but hey. My friend knows who he is and will at least be able to testify. I think he may be just lonely and lack boundaries. I'm not making excuses, but either way, I am so not into needy and clingy.
TheSilentType Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 The Silent Type, I am not interested in shooting the messenger. Just removing the fuzzy, puppy-bear, tree hugging thing, that is still unidentified from his care/possession. Please give me your home address ASAP. Lol...please don't take away that fur baby from me!! OK OK...ALL women should be treated to $300 dinners on the first date. No McDonald's dollar menu for anyone!
TheSilentType Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Oh, this is ridiculous! I had a date last week with a guy who took me to THE most exclusive and expensive place in town. Final bill? (I peeked). $314. His pay back at the end of the night? A nice hug and a mutual kiss on the cheek. He just happens to be wealthy, and yes, perhaps trying to impress me with said weath. He also happens to be classy enough to not assume it buys him anything... You should have insisted going to a less fancy resteraunt where he could have maybe spent only $40 for the dinner. Like El Torito I'm sure he would have really appreciated the gesture and you would have been just as happy eating a $40 dinner than a $300 dinner.
Jilly Bean Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 You should have insisted going to a less fancy resteraunt where he could have maybe spent only $40 for the dinner. Like El Torito I'm sure he would have really appreciated the gesture and you would have been just as happy eating a $40 dinner than a $300 dinner. You're joking, right? "I should have insisted"? ha ha! HE invited me on the date. HE planned the date. If he planned to take me to El Torito, I would not have INSISTED me take me somewhere more expensive. Just because some guys don't make money and can only afford a $40 El Torito dinner, doesn't mean all men have this mentality or wallets. It's a different mind set among men who have cashola. Guys who are buying dinners they can't afford are doing it with a purpose. Men who have they money just don't have the same agenda. Renee - I wouldn't respond to the message. His issues go beyond him not having boundaries and being lonely. Give it some time, and if he persists, then pull out the ex-hubby returning.
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