I'm sorry?

[peace_pipe]

Something occured to me as part of my last relationship failure. It has been ages since I have heard a woman say that she is sorry.

 

Are there a lot of women out there that are this stubborn?

 

It seems like the woman can mess up over and over again, but when I mess up the first time - it's cause to leave.

 

I think many women find it easier to tell all of their friends "my ex is a dickhead" and walk away instead of admitting some fault. It's easier to replace than to work on what is wrong, even if the same issue repeats itself in future relationships.

 

I'm getting tired of this mentality...

[Florida]

The only common denominator is you P_P

Not all women are like the way you have encountered.

Personally, I own up to and apologize quite readily, maybe more so than the average person. You are seeking out a certain type. You have to figure out why/what the common denominator is and avoid it next time at the first sign.

[TigerCub]

Something occured to me as part of my last relationship failure. It has been ages since I have heard a woman say that she is sorry.

 

Are there a lot of women out there that are this stubborn?

 

I'm a woman and I say I'm sorry when I know I'm wrong and I fckd up. It's just called taking responsibility for your actions.

 

It's easier to replace than to work on what is wrong.

 

I have to admit that I am someone trying to work on that. If I'm in a relationship and the same issue keeps popping up (and it is hurting me in some way), eventually I get fed up and I can't be bothered to keep trying.

But maybe that situation happens because some guys are quick to say "I'm sorry" without really knowing why they should be sorry, without really seeing what it is about their behavior in a specific issue caused a problem and instead they decide to pull off a convincing "I'm sorry sweetie" to just end the issue - maybe that's why it keeps popping back up. ... just a thought

[peace_pipe]

I have to admit that I am someone trying to work on that. If I'm in a relationship and the same issue keeps popping up (and it is hurting me in some way), eventually I get fed up and I can't be bothered to keep trying.

But maybe that situation happens because some guys are quick to say "I'm sorry" without really knowing why they should be sorry, without really seeing what it is about their behavior in a specific issue caused a problem and instead they decide to pull off a convincing "I'm sorry sweetie" to just end the issue - maybe that's why it keeps popping back up. ... just a thought

 

Thanks for the response. I know what you mean, some people are quick to apologize in an attempt to cover up the situation.

 

I seldom say I am sorry, but when I do, I mean it.

 

I feel that both parties are wrong to one extent or another during an argument. (depending on the situation, but most of the time.)

 

For me, it usually goes like this:

 

1. Girl does something rude, I let it go

 

2. Girl does the same rude thing again, I attempt to address it.

 

3. Girl does same thing again - I tell her how important it is for me to fix it.

 

4. Girl gets defensive and flakes out.

 

5. I end the relationship and she tells all her friends I am a dickhead.

 

6. Girl meets new guy.

 

7. Repeat at step one.

 

I am not making this up...

[peace_pipe]

The only common denominator is you P_P

 

The common denominator is me!!

 

Findings of fact:

 

1) I approach women with an open mind.

 

2) I look for some level off attraction.

 

3) I view how she interacts with me and others.

 

4) I persue to find out more.

 

5) Some bullcrap drama which I have no control over comes out of left field, with little or no warning.

 

I encourage you to tell me what is wrong with my denominator....

[peace_pipe]

I have to admit that I am someone trying to work on that. If I'm in a relationship and the same issue keeps popping up (and it is hurting me in some way), eventually I get fed up and I can't be bothered to keep trying.

 

You have to find the cause of the DRAMA and deal with it. If it is your drama, FIX it. If he owns it, talk to him.

 

No compliance, no compromise, no patience = not relationship material.

 

Too many people (women) are coddled in childhood and then expect the same from a man in adult life. And too many adult men perpetrate it because the have no backbone... welcome to America!

Edited January 27, 2008 by peace_pipe

[oppath]

Peace Pipe,

 

the denominator is you. That does not mean you are culpable, only perhaps you keep choosing women who have poor conflict skills, still have an ex in the picture, etc.

 

I'm a big believer that if a girl suddenly acts angry or insecure, I did or said something to trigger that even if I think I did nothing wrong, so I will always apologized and validate why they feel as they do before defending myself. People usually react to being let down or insulted in some way so if a woman acts uncharacteristic, I'm doing to accept some responsibility, at the very least to validate her and disarm the situation.

 

It's not a bad idea to ask in the first couple weeks of dating "how do you like to communicate during fights? Are you the type of person who likes to address it right away? Do you need to take a day?" etc. You can wait until you experience those things first hand, but they can also be part of a natural conversation during a date as long as they don't come out of left field like an interrogation.

[Florida]

The common denominator is me!!

 

Findings of fact:

 

1) I approach women with an open mind.

 

2) I look for some level off attraction.

 

3) I view how she interacts with me and others.

 

4) I persue to find out more.

 

5) Some bullcrap drama which I have no control over comes out of left field, with little or no warning.

 

I encourage you to tell me what is wrong with my denominator....

 

I would need some specific examples, hypotheticals and generalizations could lead to tail chasing in this thread.

 

Cub and Opp are right also, maybe you are doing something or interacting in a way that is self defeating. Or maybe you are choosing women who turn out to not be good partners. Hard to say without specific examples to show...

 

When i said you are the common denominator, what I mean is perhaps these women have a trait in common that initially attracts you, then repels you.

 

When I think of stubborn headstrong difficult types, who can't apologize and don't mind things getting ugly- initially they seemed opinionated, and very outspoken on all matters, leader types in almost any situation. Charming and gregarious, to be certain. Generous too.

 

That can be an attractive trait, until they realize you don't want to play "follow the leader" or perhaps just one disagreement where you oppose their view-then the relationship quickly disintigrates.

 

Just throwing one possible scenario out there, of how you may be the common denominator in the type you are choosing.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Florida

[norajane]

3) I view how she interacts with me and others.

This is the part to focus on. Make sure you really SEE who she is, rather than being all 'wow, she's great' and then looking for behavior to back up your initial 'wow, she's great' impression while overlooking her not-so-great behavior.

 

See how she treats people like taxi drivers, waiters, the Blockbuster clerk, the Starbucks barrista, etc. You'll often find that people who can't own up to their issues and apologize are the same people who have little no respect for service employees.

 

I don't believe that someone who treats all others with respect is the kind of person who wouldn't apologize when she's at fault. But I do believe it's very, very easy for an infatuated guy to overlook an attractive woman's flaws because he wants to be with her. You are overlooking something when you choose your gf's.

Edited January 28, 2008 by norajane

[Lauriebell82]

I agree that it may be the women that you are choosing. I like in my past dating I have always chosen men who were immature and dishonest with me. I liked this type of man because they weren't real independent and liked to spend all their time with me and in turn that made me feel better about myself. This was a result of my low self esteem and not thinking I "could do any better." When i finally realized that this was the source, I tried to work out my issues so I could find a meaningful relationship. And I did. Granted my current bf isn't perfect, but are able to work out our differences and still are happy.

 

What I'm getting at, is that maybe you need to see what kinds of women you are attracted to. And the "bullcrap drama that has nothing to do with you" is something I highly doubt. Yeah people do tend to create some drama, but what if the "drama" is something that you've done! Soemthing that I have learned is that men and women do the exact same types of undeserible things in relationship..but men tend to think that something is "drama" when it's not theres. But if it's an issue that they are having with their gf tehn it's not drama anymore, it's a valid concern. So it would be interesting to see what types of "drama" keep making your gfs dump you.

 

Could you give us an example?

[TigerCub]

You have to find the cause of the DRAMA and deal with it. If it is your drama, FIX it. If he owns it, talk to him.

 

No compliance, no compromise, no patience = not relationship material.

 

I may not have much patience (I can admit that), but I am a person that's willing to listen and understand the other point of view, and try to reach a comprimize in most cases.

But how many times can a person keep explaining how certain actions (done by thier partner) are hurtful and seen as disrespectful?

When the partner says their sorries over and over (as the same situation repeats) then it becomes meaningless. I can't possibly fix an issue if the person I'm talking to can't seem to understand why it is a problem, and or they just pretend to understand and promise to be better, but obviously don't get it, therefore they repeat it.

 

Too many people (women) are coddled in childhood and then expect the same from a man in adult life. And too many adult men perpetrate it because the have no backbone... welcome to America!

 

It has nothing at all with being coddled, I would never want to be with a man with no backbone, I like a guy with his own opinions/views, not someone that will give into every little thing I say, BUT, the man I'm with better have a sense of responsibility that if he fcks up, he can own up to it and understand where I'm coming from - see why I'm upset in the first place, and not just give some bull**** sorry just to end an issue.

 

But you do have a point, the girl you described that gets all defensive when you discuss with her something she did that you previously explained bothered you, is a flake - she's the type of person I (with no patience)don't bother with...It's too exhausting.

Edited January 28, 2008 by TigerCub

[underpants]

I'm sorry.

[peace_pipe]

So it would be interesting to see what types of "drama" keep making your gfs dump you.

 

Could you give us an example?

 

First off, I dumped her. I do my fair share of dumping.

 

 

You asked for an example of "bull**** drama".

 

It's mostly an ex-husbnad, ex-boyfriend or other ex romantic interest.

 

Example 1: Date a gril for two months, have good times. Then she tells you how hung up on her ex-boyfriend she is.

 

Example 2: Meet a girl at work, wait forever to ask her out, getting to know her in the meantime. You finally ask her out, and she brings her sister along. No big deal at first. Jealous sister slowly sabotages the relationship. Sister comes to company christmas party. Sister picks fights. Sister is 28 ,has no job, no boyfriend, almost no friends of her own. Girlfriend does not stop it. When sister is away we never argue and it's as close to perfect as one could expect.

 

Do you see what I mean when I say I have no control over this stuff??

 

I really, really feel that I put my best foot forward. I didn't come here to boo-hoo around about getting dumped. I dumped her. But I still cared and it hurts and seems like such a HUGE SHAME.

[D-Lish]

I am always good at apologizing.

Sometimes not right away... but I may go off and cool down and come back and apologize.

[peace_pipe]

I am always good at apologizing.

Sometimes not right away... but I may go off and cool down and come back and apologize.

 

Cool, I can't seem to get an apology on the most obvious issues.

 

Example: I invited my sabotaging sister to the Christmas party, then ignored you.

[oppath]

Example 1: Date a gril for two months, have good times. Then she tells you how hung up on her ex-boyfriend she is.

 

Example 2: Meet a girl at work, wait forever to ask her out, getting to know her in the meantime. You finally ask her out, and she brings her sister along. No big deal at first. Jealous sister slowly sabotages the relationship. Sister comes to company christmas party. Sister picks fights. Sister is 28 ,has no job, no boyfriend, almost no friends of her own. Girlfriend does not stop it. When sister is away we never argue and it's as close to perfect as one could expect.

 

Do you see what I mean when I say I have no control over this stuff??

Actually, you have a lot of control over both situation.

 

Example 1: you ask a girl on the 3rd date "when was your last relationship?" "Do you think you are ready for a new relationship?" "Do you still keep in touch with him?" Those questions are NOT inappropriate if you ask them casually. "I've been single for 6 weeks. I'm not really ready for a relationship. It was a bad breakup." Or "I've been single for 2 months. He's my best friend and it's important that I keep that friendship." Both of those responses to me are RED FLAGS, vs "I've been single a few months. The relationship ran it's course. We may exchange an email every now and then, but I'm ready and looking for a new relationship and try to keep my ex's in the past so I can focus on my present in future."

 

Example 2: well, that could happen to anyone. It comes down to putting your foot down earlier. Ask her out on solo dates. Or invite a guy friend along so he can distract the jealous sister.

 

I know what it is like to be led on as in example 1. I dated my last gf 6 months and her ex proposed to her and she didn't tell me; I guess he never knew about me until shortly before, but they would talk a couple times a week, and when he learned about me inadvertently asked for her back. Was it really out of my control? Not really. I asked her a couple times "I feel disrespected if you are hanging out with him but won't tell him you are dating." I didn't assign consequences, and when she stopped bringing it up, I didn't mention it. It was in my control. I could have said "In a healthy relationship, I don't feel it is appropriate to talk to or hang out with ex's unless you tell them you are in a new relationship and I can come along to meet them. Are you ready for an exclusive relationship? Ok, then I need you to offer some compromise, some solution that eases my discomfort, because I just feel disrespected. I'm not saying you can never talk to him or even see him, but I need you to make me visible, because right now, I feel invisible and unimportant. So think about what you can do to make me feel more comfortable, because if you are unwilling, we have a problem."

 

Understand: I did have control. I ignored obvious red flags and didn't assert my boundaries. Yes, I was taken advantage of, but I could have put my foot down earlier and maybe saved the relationship OR I could have bailed much more soon and not been as hurt.

 

Obviously, what she did was wrong, and it would have eased my pain for her to say "I am sorry" but I did have some control and responsibility.

[underpants]

It's mostly an ex-husbnad, ex-boyfriend or other ex romantic interest.

 

Example 1: Date a gril for two months, have good times. Then she tells you how hung up on her ex-boyfriend she is.

 

Example 2: Meet a girl at work, wait forever to ask her out, getting to know her in the meantime. You finally ask her out, and she brings her sister along. No big deal at first. Jealous sister slowly sabotages the relationship. Sister comes to company christmas party. Sister picks fights. Sister is 28 ,has no job, no boyfriend, almost no friends of her own. Girlfriend does not stop it. When sister is away we never argue and it's as close to perfect as one could expect.

 

Do you see what I mean when I say I have no control over this stuff??

 

I really, really feel that I put my best foot forward. I didn't come here to boo-hoo around about getting dumped. I dumped her. But I still cared and it hurts and seems like such a HUGE SHAME.

 

Okay Peace,

 

I am going to point some things out with your 2 examples.

 

1. 2 months is still very early in a relationship. Yet it is okay to ask along the way about her last relationship and how long it has been since she was involved with anyone. This may save you some grief as this in one recurring thing I see in your posts.

 

2. The sister thing. Okay, yes that is something that is not a compatible thing for you. Funny that you don't mention the romantic interest's current boyfriend in jail. Come on. That flag is much more red and big.

 

Maybe all these 'drama' filled and short lived experiences are screaming at you to slow down a bit and be more discerning?

 

Where do you usually meet women?

 

Maybe change up your game and don't give your heart away so easily.

 

It might be a shame that someone can't be what you are looking for. Yet, you do bear some responsibility to weed out those you know through experience exhibit traits/circumstances that are not condusive to a workable relationship with you.

 

First rule of date club.

 

1. Steer clear of someone in a relationship or newly out of one.

 

Second rule of date club.

 

2. Work romance is bad mojo.

 

 

It is all a learning process.

[oppath]

 

Example: I invited my sabotaging sister to the Christmas party, then ignored you.

 

 

You need to say "I feel like a third wheel when your sister comes along. I'd like us to spend some more time along, just the two of us. Let's go out Friday night on a date-date."

[oppath]

1. 2 months is still very early in a relationship. Yet it is okay to ask along the way about her last relationship and how long it has been since she was involved with anyone. This may save you some grief as this in one recurring thing I see in your posts.

 

1. Steer clear of someone in a relationship or newly out of one.

 

 

Word. I used to not inquire about these things because I was a late bloomer, not dating until I was 24.5, and I didn't like to answer questions about my own life. I've had many experiences where I learned after 2+ months, and her acting distant, "I just ended a serious relationship where I was practically engaged, 2 weeks before you. I am trying to slow things down." I'd always say "why didn't you tell me that on like, the 3rd date?" "Well, it would have been weird for me." I didn't realize until being burned a bunch of times, that it is ok to ask "when was your last relationship? Are you ready for a relationship right now?" Those questions are perfectly reasonable to be asked on date 3. Don't phrase it as in inquisition, but ask.

[Lauriebell82]

Cool, I can't seem to get an apology on the most obvious issues.

 

Example: I invited my sabotaging sister to the Christmas party, then ignored you.

 

Sorry, if I struck a nerve earlier, I didn't mean to. Anyway, I think it may be the types of women you are picking. Where do you usually meet the women you ask out on dates?

[Sand&Water]

RE:

 

Here is a cup of advice -eerr, words of thought in reference to your situation, Peace_Pipe.

I'm getting tired of this mentality...

Of course you are tired of this mentality. Why? Because you are not being cautious.

 

Cautious means: (1) Being honest, up front, and active about your moral grounds, standards, and how you want to be treated.

 

(2) Working towards a stable compromise between the two parties, while at the same time noting any visible red flags. Red flags don't suddenly appear out of nowhere -there are usually at least 2 signs that pop-up beforehand.

 

Some women don't say "I am Sorry", because they are preprogrammed from childhood throughout their adolescent years, where most of their character and personality solidifies, into expecting that a man will magically be a "Perfect Lover" and her, a "Perfect Girlfriend".

 

What they seem to lack is problem solving skills. Very few women are able to transfer the problem solving skills used in mathematics to their real lives. Thus is why it is difficult for those women to understand compromise and change in a relationship.

 

That's why you get, women who are inclined to think that a relationship will evolve into blissful love without the means of using practical skills.

 

Sand&Water

[peace_pipe]

Thanks for all of the responses.

 

To sum it all up: Pick out the red flags and run.

 

Every woman I have ever met in a romantic way has red flags.

 

If she's attractive, SHE HAS FLAGS!!!

 

Conclusion: continue a cycle of nothingness OR date morbidly obese women

[lindya]

I don't have difficulty saying sorry to people who can accept an apology with good grace. I do tend to avoid saying it to unreasonable, constantly self-pitying people who live for blame games. Vexatiously litigious malcontents. I can usually spot them pretty quickly.

[peace_pipe]

I don't have difficulty saying sorry to people who can accept an apology with good grace. I do tend to avoid saying it to unreasonable, constantly self-pitying people who live for blame games. Vexatiously litigious malcontents. I can usually spot them pretty quickly.

 

Okay, so are you suggesting that the lack of apologies is because these women perceive me this way?

 

I am not a king of self-pity, but I do wish things could be different. Sometimes I do feel kind of bad that things don't work out for the best. Is that self pity or human?

 

Or are you saying that the self-pitying type do not have the capability to apologize? I've already apologized to my last girlfriend, for returning a bag of her items to her yard (after an immature fight which she admittedly picked) even though what I did was a result of her childish behavior. But she's just too damn special to apologize to me.

 

Women just can't let stuff go...

Edited January 28, 2008 by peace_pipe

[blind_otter]

Women just can't let stuff go...

 

See, why can't you just say "The women I've been with..."?

 

Why does your small sample of women somehow reflect on the entirety of the gender?