Why are Americans so hell bent on saving their marriages?

[marlena]

Ariadne,

 

You are an incurable romantic!!! That's what sets you apart from the rest of us in here.

 

I agree marrying the wrong person is the root of the problem. That's why there's divorce.

 

As for women staying at home and being happy just raising the kids and being homemakers, some are and some aren't, I suppose.

 

Oh, and the way things are "supposed to be" and the way they really are are two different things.

 

The feminist movement was at its core revolutionary. It sought to bring about radical changes in so far women's role in society was concerned. In that sense, it did try to abolish, like you say, established norms.

 

Still, I like your romantic ideas and hope you do find Mr. Right for you!

[sally4sara]

Ariadne,

 

You paint a lovely picture of what marriage was like in the past but I am afraid it is far from realistic. The "Leave it to Beaver" model was intentionally projected by a society that was geared to keep women "in their place" and was not at all, however pretty, a realistic depiction of marriage. Marriage was romaticised for a reason and that was to perpetuate conservative value and ideals that often undermined a woman'r role in society.

 

Simply because gender roles were clear cut and widely accepted does not mean that women were happy being everything society expected of them. A lot of women were deeply suffering in their marriages and did not enjoy being submissive and controlled by their spouses. The reason that you have this romanticised image of marriage in the past is that few women back then were brave enough to speak out openly about what was going on behind closed doors. Men, being the bread -winners, felt entitled and often abused the power they had over women, simply because they were physically stronger and financially independent.

 

Many women, especially those that were financially dependent on their husbands, were forced to put up with lots of abuse, both physical and mental, simply because they did not have the financial means to support themselves and their children. They were also expected to look the other way when their spouses had mistresses. Divorce carried a stigma that was anathema to many women. Women were expected to be submissive,compliant and docile, happy little domesticated Stepford wives, who were not allowed to show the resentment they often harbored towards their spouses.

 

If you were to talk to some of these women today, you might be in for a shock. I hear many 8o year old women today admit that they were afraid to speak up for their rights.

 

Things started to change when women were fianlly afforded a better education which in turn enabled them to join the job market. This paved the way for a life based on equal opportunities as men. Women now had an option whether to stay or leave in a marriage. To me, this is agood thing. No one should feel obligated to remain married. Rather, they should want to remain married.

 

I used to watch Leave it to Beaver and the Harriet Family or whatever. Everything was made out to be so PERFECT about marriage and family life. It was a all a part of the "American Dream" and we all know what happened to that.

 

My grandparents perpetuated that false image. Yes they stayed married because of vows. The kids are gone and my grandmother stays anyway. Not because she loves him, and not because he is too diabetes weakened to throw the punches he thinks of throwing, but because she cannot afford to go without his Social Security and pension money. He is crazy, deaf, and more and more confused by the day. His children loathing him and resenting her for making them live through it too. I see none of them pushing for her to live with them so the S.S. and pension can go to his care. How did the "good old days" serve anyone well here? Sometimes, divorce is equal to a pardon on death row.

[lindya]

Lest we forget, let's snog outside the confines of a committed relationship, so we can show that we're open to the world, at large!!

 

I'll take a trip down to the dog pound tomorrow to see what I can pick up for this committed relationship....then by taking the dog out with us, I can demonstrate enlightened non-possessiveness as it humps other female club-goers legs. Lindya Lovelace's open marriage to an Alsation would raise the bar for ageing but still daring ladette style.

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

As for women staying at home and being happy just raising the kids and being homemakers, some are and some aren't, I suppose.

 

Well, I do support women pursuing their interests though.

 

Say, if they want to help in the orphanage, have some hobbies, or whatever it is.. as time provides for that.

 

But to expect women to be in an office for 8 to 10 hours a day to be liberated is another story.

 

That doesn't seem like liberation to me.

 

Still, I like your romantic ideas and hope you do find Mr. Right for you!

 

I doubt it. But thanks

[marlena]

Yes, these vows that some people hold to adamantly, even in the midst of violence and abuse, have done great harm to children who later become adults with serious pyschological problems.

 

Here's a subversive idea!

 

Perhaps the state should step in and force people in dysfunctional marriages to divorce? The way they take children into custody when they are being abused at home.

[Kasan]

I think people come to LS come to ask questions and clarify their thoughts about maybe wanting out, and are given things to think about, different perspectives, and yes, suggestions to try before walking out. Walking away is permanent and can be done at any time, so why not explore options before taking that final step? The whole concept behind a marriage commitment is to do your best to work through things rather than giving up right away during a hard time in the marriage.

 

I believe in marriage counseling because in some cases it does work.

 

It is very easy when you are "stuck" in the same circular arguments and situations to say, I'm done. I have found that a fresh perspective is all that is needed to salvage a relationship, assuming that there is a glimmer of love left.

 

Sometimes all we need is a fresh way to look at a marriage, to see it through different eyes.

 

I am like Curmudgeon, I want to live my life without regrets, so I would leave no stone unturned to resolve an issue in my marriage, because when I made the decision to leave, there would be no turning back.

[Storyrider]

at the age of 20, I had no idea what I would be like or what I would want at age 30, 40, etc. I don't think anyone does.

 

And if I had, I probably would have married him anyway, because even though I was having doubts (due to the sexual frequency issue) I still loved him fiercely (and thought the sexual problems would go away after the stress of the wedding) and didn't care at age 20 what I would want at age 30, 40, ect. If we lived our lives now, for how we *might* feel in the future, then we would never do anything based how we feel now.

 

Sounds familiar. There really are times when someone makes a decision in good faith, perhaps a little naivete, and out of love. It is then easy for an outsider to say, "This is a no brainer, just do A or B." I am sure that is the ideal, but it isn't always so easy.

 

Imagine your parents put you through law school. Then you get out and start work and after five years get the sinking feeling that practicing law makes you unhappy and stressed and unfulfilled. Would it be easy to pack up your desk and quit? No, you would probably keep plugging along at first, hoping it would get better. Or change to a different firm, or try working in a different area of law. But you heart might not be in it.

 

Finally you get up the guts to tell your parents you're quitting and you go back to school on your own dollar, maybe to be a teacher.

 

Would some people call you dishonest and wishy-washy for the years that you tried to make it work? Are you waffling? Are you wasting time? You didn't choose law school as just a casual fling. You knew it was serious. You worked your *ss off. You fully believed you would practice law. You were acting on good faith. But to continue practicing law if it makes you miserable doesn't solve the problem, even if it will hurt your parents who dreamed of you being a lawyer and spent 50 thousand dollars to send you to school. Once you know in your soul it won't work continuing with it only magnifies the mistake. But it might honestly take a while to figure that out.

 

Women "are" happy at home taking care of the children and the house.

 

This is a completely individual thing that varies from person to person. Doesn't it make more sense to have a choice?

 

 

Conservative values have been conservative values for the past 5,000 years no less. The feminist movement is only 50 years old.

 

Exactly. We've had thousands of years with subservient women, and only about fifty years with women being able to choose their paths. The problems will hopefully be worked out in time.

[Ariadne]

They were thinking they wanted equality.

 

Ok, there's things called children and house work.

 

The husband is at the office all day...

 

Who is going to take care of the children and house work if the mom is at the office all day being "equal" to a man?

 

Oh yeah, there's a thing called daycare, that's what is going to take care of the chidren.

 

Who is going to take care of the house and cook? Hmmm... the jury is out for that. But you can always go through the drive thru in the mean time and live in a mess of a place.

[nittygritty]

I'm not voting for Hiliary Clinton because I disagree with her proposed solution to the problems in America but among the many reasons why I wouldn't vote for her is because she did not divorce her husband for cheating on her throughout their marriage. She tolerated the public humiliation as the first lady of the United States. What message does that send to women?

 

And while I realize that her staying married to Bill Clinton was probably nothing more than a political manuever to be considered a "serious candidate" and non threatening female candidate which might be necessary for acquiring the votes of people who might have issues about having a woman president simply because of her gender.

 

Does Hiliary Clinton's marriage to a serial cheater represent the kind of marriage that women want?

[nittygritty]

Ok, there's things called children and house work.

 

The husband is at the office all day...

 

Who is going to take care of the children and house work if the mom is at the office all day being "equal" to a man?

 

Oh yeah, there's a thing called daycare, that's what is going to take care of the chidren.

 

Who is going to take care of the house and cook? Hmmm... the jury is out for that. But you can always go through the drive thru in the mean time and live in a mess of a place.

 

 

The legal expectation should be equal contribution. It doesn't matter who does what, it just has to equally benefit all involved.

[lindya]

Unfortunately, this is the exaggerated truth of whats trying to be expected of young women these days.

 

Whats the expectation of women in there 30's, 40's and 50's?

 

There is confusion for men and women but the confusion is benefitting men mostly. In the sense that there are women willing to tolerate disrespectful and unequal treatment in order "to have a man".

 

I'm not sure what the general cultural expectation of women my age is - other than to be married, in employment and with kids. I'm not married and I don't have kids, but the people I know pretty much like and accept me as I am....and the men I know are generally too gentlemanly to seriously get into that ironically smirking masculinist culture I've joked about.

 

I think, though, that once a woman starts pandering to that masculinist thing by trying to be some sort of desensitised, self-objectifying thug with breasts (which is how I perceive the ladette thing) she'll eventually become genuinely desensitised. That's not, to me, what being a woman is about.

[Curmudgeon]

Divorce carried a stigma that was anathema to many women. Women were expected to be submissive,compliant and docile, happy little domesticated Stepford wives, who were not allowed to show the resentment they often harbored towards their spouses.

 

If you were to talk to some of these women today, you might be in for a shock. I hear many 8o year old women today admit that they were afraid to speak up for their rights.

 

My mother, who's been dead for almost 20 years, was decidedly an upper-crust, New York WASP snob and I remember her scathing tone whenever she referred to a divorced woman. It was as if it was all the woman's fault and lowered her "value" to society making her a lesser person and not worthy of notice. However, they merited notice enough for me to be warned about them. After all, as a teen male, they were likely to come prowling after me and lead me into debauchery!

 

My parents stayed married for 46 years until my mother's death from pancreatic cancer. They shouldn't have. All they did was fight and put one another down and I know my father grew physically abusive. But they couldn't live without one another or their lives would have had no stimulation or meaning. My father willed himself to death about a year after my mother's.

 

Go figure. Dysfunction at its worst!

[Curmudgeon]

I think that is a very valid think to ask oneself before marrying. My ex is 11 years older than me - I was 20, he was 31 when we married - so I did ask myself what I thought it would be like when I was 30 and he was 41, and when I was 40 and he was 51, etc.

 

And you know what? I couldn't answer that. Because at the age of 20, I had no idea what I would be like or what I would want at age 30, 40, etc. I don't think anyone does.

 

Good reason for why I decidedly wanted to marry someone at or near my own age the second time around. I really did want someone who could converse from the same perspective -- someone who had lived through and experienced the same historic events and societal upheavals I had, listened to the same music, rememberes the same movies and the people in them.

[Curmudgeon]

Who is going to take care of the house and cook? Hmmm... the jury is out for that. But you can always go through the drive thru in the mean time and live in a mess of a place.

 

You can both cook and you can both do housework. That's how my wife and I handles it before she retired. Now she pretty much takes care of the home as I'm still working but we both still cook. I don't "have to" but I enjoy it and my wife likes the dishes I prepare. I probably cook three nights a week and don't mind it a bit.

[nittygritty]

I'm not sure what the general cultural expectation of women my age is - other than to be married, in employment and with kids. I'm not married and I don't have kids, but the people I know pretty much like and accept me as I am....and the men I know are generally too gentlemanly to seriously get into that ironically smirking masculinist culture I've joked about.

 

I think, though, that once a woman starts pandering to that masculinist thing by trying to be some sort of desensitised, self-objectifying thug with breasts (which is how I perceive the ladette thing) she'll eventually become genuinely desensitised. That's not, to me, what being a woman is about.

 

 

I'm not sure either but I do know that marriage or even just a committed relationship has to be beneficial to both the man and woman in order for it to successfully survive.

[marlena]

After all, as a teen male, they were likely to come prowling after me and lead me into debauchery!

 

 

So, pray tell! Did any gay divorcee lead you into debauchery?

[Curmudgeon]

So, pray tell! Did any gay divorcee lead you into debauchery?

 

Not a one. I heeded my mother's warnings. Then, at 50 I rebelled and married someone who'd been divorced not once but twice before and let her have her way with me!

[OWoman]

Women "are" happy at home taking care of the children and the house.

 

I for one would never be. I admire those who can - I think it's a thankless task that is very demanding and completely unrewarded materially and socially, and any woman who makes that choice has my utmost respect. But it's a choice I could never make for myself.

 

It is not a plot. It is the ideal.

 

In which case, a very recent and very middle class "Western" ideal. In hunter gatherer societies, women are active workers, as they are in agrarian societies. Even today, in traditional African societies, it is the women who tend the fields while the men sit at home and guard the homestead (when they are not out making war). I'm not sure any of those women would agree on your "ideal", and would certainly not agree to someone who doesn't know them, that they didn't elect, deciding what was best for them. Too much of history has been like that.

 

Actually, the goal of feminism was neither to force women into the home nor out of it. The goal of feminism was to validate women's right to choose.

[Ariadne]

You can both cook and you can both do housework. That's how my wife and I handles it before she retired. Now she pretty much takes care of the home as I'm still working but we both still cook. I don't "have to" but I enjoy it and my wife likes the dishes I prepare. I probably cook three nights a week and don't mind it a bit.

 

Yes, I remember this discussion you had:

 

If I want dinner, 4-5 nights our of 7 I have to make it. Thankfully, I'm a very good cook and, yes, if I cook for myself I cook for her as well. If I need clean laundry I'd best get about doing it myself or chances are it won't get done. Same with grocery and household shopping.

[OWoman]

Ok, there's things called children and house work.

 

The husband is at the office all day...

 

Who is going to take care of the children and house work if the mom is at the office all day being "equal" to a man?

 

Oh yeah, there's a thing called daycare, that's what is going to take care of the chidren.

 

Who is going to take care of the house and cook? Hmmm... the jury is out for that. But you can always go through the drive thru in the mean time and live in a mess of a place.

 

Then again, some husbands are at home taking care of the kids while the wife is at the office. No, not necessarily househusbands - many men run their own businesses from home and can change nappies same as any woman. It's a learned skill, not an instinct.

 

Anyone can cook. Anyone can clean. Ideally, it should be shared by both partners until the kids are old enough to do chores, and then they should help out too.

[OWoman]

Good reason for why I decidedly wanted to marry someone at or near my own age the second time around. I really did want someone who could converse from the same perspective -- someone who had lived through and experienced the same historic events and societal upheavals I had, listened to the same music, rememberes the same movies and the people in them.

 

I've always gone for older men and never found that to be a problem. My music taste is eclectic, I read voraciously and have always preferred older company in terms of a more mature perspective, so core values have always been closer than to men of my own age.

 

I guess it's a matter of where you prefer similarity, and where complementarity.

[OWoman]

Not a one. I heeded my mother's warnings. Then, at 50 I rebelled and married someone who'd been divorced not once but twice before and let her have her way with me!

 

Delayed adolescence, then?

[marlena]

Not a one. I heeded my mother's warnings. Then, at 50 I rebelled and married someone who'd been divorced not once but twice before and let her have her way with me!

 

Well, like they say, better late than never!

[Ariadne]

African societies, it is the women who tend the fields while the men sit at home and guard the homestead (when they are not out making war).

 

And the argument is... well, there is this tribe in the middle of Africa where the women are the bread winners.

 

Ok...

 

(..those black men...)

[marianne62]

No it isn't.. if the divorce rate was 100% then it would be unrealistic.. but half of the marriages that people take their vows last...

 

My grandparents were married 68 years before death parted them..

It was realistic for them.. so why not for me or anyone else ?

 

Just because people stayed married means nothing. It's the quality of the marriage not the number of years they are in it. My parents were married for 43 years until my father died and it was a miserable marriage from the time I came on to the picture.

 

My mother, unfortunately, was Catholic and believed that divorce was not an option. I feel sad for her. I remember being a teenager and wishing that she'd get the nerve to leave him, but she never did. In number of years it would look successful, but in reality it was a disaster.