hotgurl Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 Ok my daughter who is 12 in 7th grade got into a fight with another girl. Not a physical fight but a verbal one. They have been snitting back and forth at each other. and she threatened this girl today in school. My daughter would never actually do anything but when she gets mad and to a point she threatens. At home we had talks about how that is innappropriate and better ways to express herself. Up until this point the threatening has been at home ie. When she talks to us about an event that made her really angry she say I was so mad I could slap her. OR if she does that againn etc... And we have every time she does this tell her how is not ok to threaten people and suggested other ways to express herself. Well she finally threanted someone in school. So I am punishing her. My thoughts were. !. no internet for 2 weeks. No phone or friends over the weekend (shedoesn't have friends over afterschool) miss her basketball game tonight. Plus she has to write me a 1 page paper stating why she is in trouble, why what she did was wrong and other ways she could have handled the situation Is this too harsh or just right. What do you thinK?
curiousnycgirl Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 I'm not a parent, so I probably have no right to speak, but here I go. Actually the only thing I question is her not going to her basketball game tonight. If she is on a team, then the team is depending on her. Not sure you want to give her the message the she can shirk that responsibility. But of course up to you.
Author hotgurl Posted January 24, 2008 Author Posted January 24, 2008 I'm not a parent, so I probably have no right to speak, but here I go. Actually the only thing I question is her not going to her basketball game tonight. If she is on a team, then the team is depending on her. Not sure you want to give her the message the she can shirk that responsibility. But of course up to you. I was questioning that as well. But I also feel after school activites are a privilage. Plus the girl she threatened is on the team.
lovelorcet Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 (I am not a parent) I think the team stuff is important as well and I even think it is good that this other girl is on the team. I also think having her write something a really good idea.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) OK, about the team thing... I have never allowed my children to miss practice or games unless they were sick, it's teaching them a commitment and responsibility. BUT this past season I looked at my 10 year old and said straighten up now or we go home. Coach was right beside me. My son says, you can't take me home, I have to be here for the team. I looked at the coach and said, we hope to see you at the next practice if DS can learn respect and self-control by then, he smiled and nodded his approval. The child was speachless for hours, and it made quite an impression. I would worry though about giving the other child the feeling that she has the upperhand and could some how control your daughter through you, or entice her. I HATE MIDDLE SCHOOL!!! Especially with girls! Personally, I would get with the mother, tell her that they are both being snits and brainstorm on getting them together til they can somehow agree to be friendly or ignore each other, lock them up or give them an enourmous project that they have to work together to complete. As for punishing for this, I would choose ONE big thing. Too many and they loose site of what they are being punished for. I completely agree with writing the paper though, its something we use with our son Edited January 24, 2008 by IfWishesWereHorses
Tripper Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 I agree with the other posters about the basketball game. It does build team thinking. But the punishment needs to fit the crime. I would think making her give an face to face apology to the girl she threatened would make her think twice about doing it again and would be appropriate.
dropdeadlegs Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 Since you have spoken to your daughter about better ways of handling the situation, I love the idea of writing a paper explaining what she did wrong and how to be more appropriate next time. I feel this will be good for both of you because we don't always hear what is being said, and if she isn't hearing your message now is the time to know that. I agree that extracurricular activities are a privilege. Even college athletes are suspended from games when their off the court behavior is deemed less than desirable. I can also see the point of those who feel that team obligations should be met. So, I'm torn on this one. Apologies are humbling and certainly modified my behavior. Unfortunately it will only be beneficial if the other girls parents are on the same page concerning the behavior that has been exhibited from both sides. I see bad behavior on the part of parents so often these days that it's hard to say how an apology would play out in your situation. It takes a big person to admit they were wrong and apologize, and there is a lesson to be learned in understanding that not every person is "big." Even parents. For my kids I don't think withholding internet privileges would be beneficial in making my point, but mine are younger and don't have much internet privileges anyway. It may be a big deal to your daughter. And for what it's worth, I hate middle school, too! But I know you will handle this effectively. You're a good mom, hotgurl. Was there any consequence at school? Just curious.
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 lol wow, I had hoped we were over the whole punishment thing as a society, guess not. If your daughter being afraid of what you will do to her if she does something is the only thing stopping her from doing it again then it serves no purpose. Threats and "punishment" don't solve problems, look at all the repeat offenders in America that end back up in jail, punishment does not work. The single and only thing that ever made me change my opinion on something or decided to stop doing something, was when I took a close look at the other sides point of view, not from threats or punishment. But depending on who started what, it may not even be your daughters fault. My parents always told me to take the stance, if someone ****s with you, you **** with them just as hard.
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Wow. You cannot raise a good kid without punishing them and rewarding them. How else will they learn consequences to their actions unless they're punished. I agree about not withholding basketball. The rest sounded reasonable. And yes, you sound like a great mother. Nice to see there are still old-fashioned parents around who care enough to teach their kids right from wrong.
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Wow. You cannot raise a good kid without punishing them and rewarding them. How else will they learn consequences to their actions unless they're punished. I agree about not withholding basketball. The rest sounded reasonable. And yes, you sound like a great mother. Nice to see there are still old-fashioned parents around who care enough to teach their kids right from wrong. lol I was never punished, and I think I am a rather good person, try not to make generalized statements that may have applied to you, but may not apply to everyone else. Right and Wrong are not things you can teach people because there is no real definition of either. People must evaluate it for themselves and make a decision.
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 lol I was never punished, and I think I am a rather good person, try not to make generalized statements that may have applied to you, but may not apply to everyone else. What do you call what YOU'RE doing? Right and Wrong are not things you can teach people because there is no real definition of either. People must evaluate it for themselves and make a decision. Sorry, but we're not talking about teaching right and wrong to "people"...we're talking about teaching our CHILDREN. The definition of right and wrong is up to the parents to define. And we do. As any good parent does. Children can't "evaluate it for themselves and make a decision." No, they can't. That's my job as a parent. Children don't raise themselves. Wow...no wonder teachers who have been teaching for many, many years say that this generation is the worst ever. You're not a parent are you?
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 lol wow, I had hoped we were over the whole punishment thing as a society, guess not. You don't call the above a generalized statement? So because you weren't punished ALL of society shouldn't be raised with punishment? Give me a break. If your daughter being afraid of what you will do to her if she does something is the only thing stopping her from doing it again then it serves no purpose. Yes, it most certainly DOES serve a purpose. It keeps her from making the same mistake again...who cares what the motivation is. The result is the desired behavior. See how that works? Threats and "punishment" don't solve problems, look at all the repeat offenders in America that end back up in jail, punishment does not work. Yes, because it's too late by the time they're past 12 or so. Had they learned consequences for their behavior as children, they wouldn't be in and out of jail. The single and only thing that ever made me change my opinion on something or decided to stop doing something, was when I took a close look at the other sides point of view, not from threats or punishment. Well, aren't you special? I don't buy it for a minute. Sorry. But depending on who started what, it may not even be your daughters fault. Doesn't matter who started it. She didn't handle it the right way and her mother is trying to teach her the right way to handle such things. I applaud her. My parents always told me to take the stance, if someone ****s with you, you **** with them just as hard. Nice. Wow. Kids raised the way your parents raised you generally have a very tough time in life. They don't fit in and can be anti-social. They can't keep jobs. They don't respect authority. They have feelings of self-entitlement. They're usually a mess. I can't speak for you of course but without question, across the board, people who I've met who were raised like you, just have real problems fitting in to society - and yes, many end up in jail, homeless, outcasts, etc. So yeah, I'll keep showing our son right from wrong and using punishment and rewards to teach him. It's my job as a good parent.
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Nice. Wow. Kids raised the way your parents raised you generally have a very tough time in life. They don't fit in and can be anti-social. They can't keep jobs. They don't respect authority. They have feelings of self-entitlement. They're usually a mess. I can't speak for you of course but without question, across the board, people who I've met who were raised like you, just have real problems fitting in to society - and yes, many end up in jail, homeless, outcasts, etc. So yeah, I'll keep showing our son right from wrong and using punishment and rewards to teach him. It's my job as a good parent. lol, ignorance is bliss, I cant force you to see whats wrong in your viewpoint, I only give you a idea different from yours. Apparently when your opinions feel threatened you resort to implied personal attacks. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink, I feel sad for you if the only thing stopping you from killing someone is the fear of going to jail, not the feeling of regret and remorse caused by others suffering. I personally think you need to look deeper into yourself, from what you posted you sound very defensive as if I was directly attacking you, I don't cause problems I simply point them out. Don't rationalize to me why you treat your child the way you do.
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 lol, ignorance is bliss, I cant force you to see whats wrong in your viewpoint, I only give you a idea different from yours. Apparently when your opinions feel threatened you resort to implied personal attacks. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink, I feel sad for you if the only thing stopping you from killing someone is the fear of going to jail, not the feeling of regret and remorse caused by others suffering. I personally think you need to look deeper into yourself, from what you posted you sound very defensive as if I was directly attacking you, I don't cause problems I simply point them out. Don't rationalize to me why you treat your child the way you do. Personal attack? Are you kidding me? When did I do that? Show me. I did no such thing. We were debating a point of view. Yeah, the only reason I don't go around killing people I don't like is that I'm afraid of jail...come on! Is that the best you can come up with. How do you think one develops a conscience? I was taught that you don't hurt people. And if ever I did, I'd get punished. Eventually I learned that it's just nice to hurt people. So I didn't. Because I knew it was wrong. I was taught that it was wrong. Defensive? Uhm, no. Just debating a point of view like I said. Where are you getting that I'm defensive? Interesting. What and why would you think I'm "rationalizing" the way I raise my child. And why would I do that to a complete stranger on the internet who's views (no offense) I don't even respect. I'm proud, yes proud of the way I raise my child. My H and I are both proud of the way we raise him. And I'm proud of other parents like hotgurl who don't cave to the child pop psychology idea of the moment and raise their child with real values. She's not a lazy parent who lets her kids raise themselves. Again, I applaud her.
Mustang Sally Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Right and Wrong are not things you can teach people because there is no real definition of either. People must evaluate it for themselves and make a decision. Wow. Yikes. Two questions: 1) Do you have children? 2) Are you serious about the "no real definition of" right and wrong?
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Personal attack? Are you kidding me? When did I do that? Show me. I did no such thing. We were debating a point of view. Yeah, the only reason I don't go around killing people I don't like is that I'm afraid of jail...come on! Is that the best you can come up with. How do you think one develops a conscience? I was taught that you don't hurt people. And if ever I did, I'd get punished. Eventually I learned that it's just nice to hurt people. So I didn't. Because I knew it was wrong. I was taught that it was wrong. Defensive? Uhm, no. Just debating a point of view like I said. Where are you getting that I'm defensive? Interesting. What and why would you think I'm "rationalizing" the way I raise my child. And why would I do that to a complete stranger on the internet who's views (no offense) I don't even respect. I'm proud, yes proud of the way I raise my child. My H and I are both proud of the way we raise him. And I'm proud of other parents like hotgurl who don't cave to the child pop psychology idea of the moment and raise their child with real values. She's not a lazy parent who lets her kids raise themselves. Again, I applaud her. Morals don't come from fear of being punished, thats a fact. That is a good question though, why would you rationalize how you were treating your child to a complete stranger, perhaps you need reassurance that what you are doing is actually correct, me pointing out another viewpoint made you question your own views. You felt insecure in them so you then needed to rationalize them to me. I don't know if that is correct or not, it is simply my perception of what occurred. I always could do what ever I wanted, my parents were always supportive, they encouraged me to sway in certain directions, they provided me with information to make decisions but I was never forced, I personally think using me as example of someone who was not "punished" demonstrates that this philosophy does indeed work. Ironically the kids who were abused by overly controlling parents who use your "punishment" methodology are usually the immoral ones, the ones who torture animals and go on shooting sprees. The only way they knew how to deal with things is threw fear, just like they had been taught. To each his own, I just suggest everyone spend more time thinking about the things they do and the actions they take.
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Wow. Yikes. Two questions: 1) Do you have children? 2) Are you serious about the "no real definition of" right and wrong? I asked the same thing. But got no answer (to number 1) which was my answer. Of course Arch has no kids, duh! Right? No brainer there. Who would raise their kids that way? Oh wait...uhm, never mind. As to number two. I know. That was my reaction too. Jeeezzz. Anyway, I'm bowing out of this one. It's going off-topic and probably not helping hotgurl. It would make a good thread though.
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Wow. Yikes. Two questions: 1) Do you have children? 2) Are you serious about the "no real definition of" right and wrong? 1 - No I do not, 2 - Yes, there is no factual definition of right and wrong, I have my own personal beliefs and I think they are correct, other people have there own standards. I personally believe in giving everyone and everything equal respect, but my definition of right and wrong can not be validated, neither can yours. The best I can do is treat others like I wish to be treated. Catholics believed in burning witches at the stake, and torturing people to death for not confessing there sins, do you view that as right? I certainly don't but they truly thought what they were doing was to "save the peoples souls" and it was gods work. Over time societies definition of right and wrong changes, it is not constant.
Touche Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Morals don't come from fear of being punished, thats a fact. You completely missed the point. Go back and try reading it again. That is a good question though, why would you rationalize how you were treating your child to a complete stranger, perhaps you need reassurance that what you are doing is actually correct, me pointing out another viewpoint made you question your own views. You felt insecure in them so you then needed to rationalize them to me. Question my views on this? You've GOT to be kidding. Nope. I'm absolutely 100% sure of my views on this. I've seen the result of the kind of parenting you're talking about as I've stated. Why would I want that for my own kid. No thanks. I'm quite secure in my views. But it's fine if you think I'm not. You're entitled to think as you please. I don't know if that is correct or not, it is simply my perception of what occurred. Not sure what you meant by the above. I always could do what ever I wanted, my parents were always supportive, they encouraged me to sway in certain directions, they provided me with information to make decisions but I was never forced, I personally think using me as example of someone who was not "punished" demonstrates that this philosophy does indeed work. Sure. If you say so. Ironically the kids who were abused by overly controlling parents who use your "punishment" methodology are usually the immoral ones, the ones who torture animals and go on shooting sprees. The only way they knew how to deal with things is threw fear, just like they had been taught. You're talking about an extreme here. I'm not. There's a happy medium between the extreme discipline you speak of above and none at all you know. What a concept, eh? To each his own, I just suggest everyone spend more time thinking about the things they do and the actions they take. I agree. You're just not on board with the DISCIPLINE thing are you? Or are you? Have a great evening.
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 I agree. You're just not on board with the DISCIPLINE thing are you? Or are you? Have a great evening. Hmmm, as you stated in a previous post, there is no point in continuing this discussion, I give you a different viewpoint which you don't like. It is understandable though, once someone was raised to hold a certain view it is very difficult for them see outside of that. Have a nice evening,
Trialbyfire Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Hmmm, as you stated in a previous post, there is no point in continuing this discussion, I give you a different viewpoint which you don't like. It is understandable though, once someone was raised to hold a certain view it is very difficult for them see outside of that. Have a nice evening, Do you believe in actions to consequences or do you believe that a 2 year old toddler intuitively knows that it's not okay to put their little fingers in the electrical socket? Maybe you believe that they should try it and learn from that?
Mustang Sally Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 1 - No I do not, 2 - Yes, there is no factual definition of right and wrong, I have my own personal beliefs and I think they are correct, other people have there own standards. I personally believe in giving everyone and everything equal respect, but my definition of right and wrong can not be validated, neither can yours. The best I can do is treat others like I wish to be treated. Catholics believed in burning witches at the stake, and torturing people to death for not confessing there sins, do you view that as right? I certainly don't but they truly thought what they were doing was to "save the peoples souls" and it was gods work. Over time societies definition of right and wrong changes, it is not constant. Yeah....blah blah blah...there are trillions of examples of people throughout the course of time that have done dumb stuff in the name of religion or morality or ...whatever. However, there are irrefutable truths that do exist that are necessary for societies to exist (people to be able to cohabitate). Such as "Murder is wrong." etc. You get the idea. At least, that is what I learned in Philosophy 101 waaaay back in the dark ages when I was in college....call me crazy, but it makes beautiful sense to me....
Arch Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 Yeah....blah blah blah...there are trillions of examples of people throughout the course of time that have done dumb stuff in the name of religion or morality or ...whatever. However, there are irrefutable truths that do exist that are necessary for societies to exist (people to be able to cohabitate). Such as "Murder is wrong." etc. You get the idea. At least, that is what I learned in Philosophy 101 waaaay back in the dark ages when I was in college....call me crazy, but it makes beautiful sense to me.... I am not denying that everyone holding a certain set of morals is needed for a society to exist, I am simply pointing out that no matter how you cut it, there is no factual bases for right and wrong in the context of morality, not in the context of a functional society.
Trialbyfire Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 I am not denying that everyone holding a certain set of morals is needed for a society to exist, I am simply pointing out that no matter how you cut it, there is no factual bases for right and wrong in the context of morality, not in the context of a functional society. Have you ever debated morality or functional societies with a 3 year-old? They usually don't get it. I can't understand why...
Ronni_W Posted January 25, 2008 Posted January 25, 2008 I really wish there were more parents like you on the planet -- responsible, caring and willing to make the effort to help guide our kids to behaviour that will better serve themselves and their community . Have you considered starting a local "appropriate parenting" workshop in your area??? I'm reading five (if my math is right) consequences for her inappropriate behaviour. In Life there are consequences for doing what does not work. That is a good lesson. You have labeled it "punishment" but I don't see that you are looking to do that...I really see it as you trying to teach and guide. It is about your daughter learning how to treat others and how to act in ways that are acceptable to her family and society at large. I *love* the idea of the 1-page paper PLUS one other thing from your list. For the basketball game, it would have taken a lot more effort but another option would have been to allow the other girl to decide if your daughter would participate in the game. (I realize it is past game time, but throwing it in for consideration should there be a "next time" -- hoping NOT, though.) God bless.
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