Daphne Crane Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Why is it easier for the CS to be more open and honest with the OW/OM than with their spouse?
Trimmer Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 All bets are off, all rules are suspended, there are no limits, there are no boundaries. The affair partner is perceived as being everything the spouse is not, everything the spouse can never be, the anti-spouse. I guess it totally makes sense to me. The WS is breaking one of the biggest "rules" already; my question is: why would you think there would be any kind of boundary at all motivating him/her to hold back?
OpenBook Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 My guess is, he doesn't know her as well as he does his W... and doesn't have the history with her. And she doesn't know him either. So he doesn't have his guard up with her, like he does his W. Also, it's easier for him to tell the OW whatever he wants, and get away with it. He can "reinvent" himself in her eyes. Which is just as dishonest as his lies to his W. Whenever a man tells me he is being "open and honest" I take that with a HUGE grain of salt.
cj1988 Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 I agree, mostly with the "reinvent" themselves. It is like they can be a totally different, more than likely unreal person with them. They can tell them all their GOOD qualities and leave out all the BAD ones. They can tell them how loving and romantic they are (but do not act that way or try to be with their S) and complain that they are just not uderstood. They tell them how much they miss being romatic and loving, but do not try to be at all with the S.....so you see they are living a DOUBLE life that is almost full of lies of what they THINK they are or could be with the OM/OW....then after 2 years they are the same way with them as they were with the S, all bets are off and the lies come to the surface......
TMCM Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Why is it easier for the CS to be more open and honest with the OW/OM than with their spouse? Are they? Are they open and honest enough to come out and tell the OP that he/she is probably a temporary fling and that he/she will eventually be discarded? What do you think?
OWoman Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Why is it easier for the CS to be more open and honest with the OW/OM than with their spouse? Mostly, I suspect, because the stakes are not as high. (Though obviously that varies from case to case.)
whichwayisup Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Are they? Are they open and honest enough to come out and tell the OP that he/she is probably a temporary fling and that he/she will eventually be discarded? What do you think? I agree with this. But, I'm sure in the heat of the moment what was said at the time was meant, but the CS knows they can do whatever they want come D-Day as the ring on the finger is the trump card to get out of what they said during the heat of the moment...(you knew I was married from day one and I never promised you I'd leave...Or, I changed my mind etc..)
cj1988 Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 I agree with this. But, I'm sure in the heat of the moment what was said at the time was meant, but the CS knows they can do whatever they want come D-Day as the ring on the finger is the trump card to get out of what they said during the heat of the moment...(you knew I was married from day one and I never promised you I'd leave...Or, I changed my mind etc..) That is WHY A are such a gamble for everyone involved, except the BS. The M person going into the A and the person they are having it with know that more than likely it will not last. Even if they think they are in love they are fooling themself because if that were true, they would D and be together. So, any A that last longer than one night is a nightmare in the making and BOTH know that most of the time....for some reason they have the idea that they are so smart and they will not be caught for a long time and it will be FUN and no one will get hurt.....unfortunately EVERYONE especailly the innocent unaware BS gets the s--- end of the deal and loses everything in the end, mostly themself for a while.
Mr. Lucky Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Why is it easier for the CS to be more open and honest with the OW/OM than with their spouse? I think you're looking at it backwards. Your question should be "Why is it easier for the CS to deceive the OW/OM than their spouse?" Anyone who lives with you day in and out, through all life's ups and downs, knows the truth about you. Someone who spends 4 hours a month with you in various motel rooms is more easily fooled. I doubt that the vast majority of CS are ever open and honest with their OW/OM... Mr. Lucky
CraigAllen Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 I don't think all WS's are open and honest with the OM/OW, but in the cases where they are, I think the bottom line is that it ultimately doesn't matter if the relationship fails. Sometimes the WS has a huge desire to just be themselves. They can do that without consequence with an affair partner. Not so easy sometimes with expectations of the spouse.
OWoman Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Anyone who lives with you day in and out, through all life's ups and downs, knows the truth about you. You're claiming that all BS know their CS is having it off with someone else? No one ever gets blindsided? Not sure how many people will agree with you on that one!
Mr. Lucky Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 You're claiming that all BS know their CS is having it off with someone else? No one ever gets blindsided? Not sure how many people will agree with you on that one! Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the BS truthfully knows what type of person the CS is. It's much easier for the CS to deceive the OM/OW in this regard... Mr. Lucky
OWoman Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the BS truthfully knows what type of person the CS is. It's much easier for the CS to deceive the OM/OW in this regard... Mr. Lucky I can't agree with this either. I think this is an ideal case scenario, what SHOULD happen in a M. But that requires good communication sklls on both sides, and is thus unlikely to be present in those Ms where one of the partners is having an A. In such cases, because of the flawed communication between the spouses, it's quite possible DEPENDING ON THE NATURE OF THE A for the CS to be more honest with the OP than with their BS - if only because they could hardly be LESS honest! Of course, there's a huge range of possibility there, between the "true soulmate" type A and the "4 hours a month in a motel room" type A. In the latter there's not likely to be much communication of any sort, whereas the former relies entirely on communication.
BetrayedMM Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 I think they probably lie just as much, but about different things. Just theory though, but I'm basing it on the fact that it usually doesn't work out with the OM/OW in the long run, and folks who are dishonest at home are usually just as dishonest elsewhere(work, friends, whatever), so why would they be honest to the A partner? I'm gonna say a double life requires a whole lot of lying all around. I think.
Mr. Lucky Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 I can't agree with this either. I think this is an ideal case scenario, what SHOULD happen in a M. But that requires good communication sklls on both sides, and is thus unlikely to be present in those Ms where one of the partners is having an A. In such cases, because of the flawed communication between the spouses, it's quite possible DEPENDING ON THE NATURE OF THE A for the CS to be more honest with the OP than with their BS - if only because they could hardly be LESS honest! But my point was not about communication skills but about truthfullness and honesty. And I maintain that most CS are less honest with their OW/OM than they are with their BS - although it's relative as they're lying to everyone involved. The OW/OM is told "My spouse doesn't understand me" or "We haven't had sex in a year" when neither might be true and, based on the furtive nature of their interactions, neither can be verified. As a man, I might tell my OW that, when younger, I was a Green Beret or Big Wave Surfing Champion ! Since she hasn't spent the last 20 years washing the skid marks out of my underwear, she'd have no way of knowing what was true and what wasn't. If I'm having an A, I might lie to my wife about where I went after work. If I'm having an A, I might also lie to my OW about EVERYTHING past, present and future... Mr. Lucky
OWoman Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 The OW/OM is told "My spouse doesn't understand me" or "We haven't had sex in a year" when neither might be true and, based on the furtive nature of their interactions, neither can be verified. Again, this might apply to the "couple of hours a month in a motel" type of A, but not the "soulmate" type A. I've never had a MM tell me his W didn't understand him, or that they'd not had / were not having sex, even if that might have been true. I'm simply not interested in a MM's sex life with his W, so why the need ever to discuss it either way? Nor have the interactions been furtive - many OW are included in social, business and family circles, fully integrated into the MM's life in every way with only the W excluded. Information thus comes from multiple sources - friends, family, colleagues, rather than from MM. The only one being lied to in those type As is the W. Your statements may well hold true for some "couple of hours in a motel" type A, but to generalise from that to ALL As is like generalising that because some Ms are sexless, all Ms must necessarily be so.
Mr. Lucky Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Nor have the interactions been furtive - many OW are included in social, business and family circles, fully integrated into the MM's life in every way with only the W excluded. Information thus comes from multiple sources - friends, family, colleagues, rather than from MM. The only one being lied to in those type As is the W. Boy OWoman, have you drunk the Koolaid!!! The warm, fuzzy hues with which you portray the "OW experience" don't jibe with anything I've experienced personally, peripherally or anecdotally. "Fully integrated into the MM's life"? Does this happen before she f***s him in the back seat of his car or afterwards? The only one being lied to in these A's is the OW, lying to herself about what she's doing... Mr. Lucky
OWoman Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Boy OWoman, have you drunk the Koolaid!!! The warm, fuzzy hues with which you portray the "OW experience" don't jibe with anything I've experienced personally, peripherally or anecdotally. "Fully integrated into the MM's life"? Does this happen before she f***s him in the back seat of his car or afterwards? The only one being lied to in these A's is the OW, lying to herself about what she's doing... Mr. Lucky Well your experience is clearly a lot more limited than mine, it seems!
Mr. Lucky Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 I've never had a MM tell me his W didn't understand him, or that they'd not had / were not having sex, even if that might have been true. I'm simply not interested in a MM's sex life with his W, so why the need ever to discuss it either way? How big of a sampling pool are we taking about here? Since I've only been the BS once (and it was 20 years ago), perhaps your experience as the OW trumps mine in volume and recency ... Mr. Lucky
Trimmer Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) Again, this might apply to the "couple of hours a month in a motel" type of A, but not the "soulmate" type A. I've never had a MM tell me his W didn't understand him... Is there any irony in the idea that you are pointedly distinguishing "the soulmate type affair", and then in virtually the same breath, imply that you have experienced multiple of these affairs? Did I misread that, or do we just have very different understandings of the concept of "soulmate." (As disdainful of the concept as I am, that is quite possible...) ...many OW are included in social, business and family circles, fully integrated into the MM's life in every way with only the W excluded. Really.... ...integrated in every way... I am not one to start threads on the OM/OW board, but I would love to see a poll there asking for OM/OW's experiences of being "fully integrated in every way" into the MM/MW life. Do you really think there would be "many" agreeing with that? Your statements may well hold true for some "couple of hours in a motel" type A, but to generalise from that to ALL As is like generalising that because some Ms are sexless, all Ms must necessarily be so. Well, if we're disallowing generalizing in this thread, then that negates the whole original question, which was inherently general, if you go back and check. I maintain that it's not worth trying to stake claim as to whether the prototypical MM/MW "lies more" to the OW/OM or "lies more" to the spouse. One thing that is probably safe to generalize is that lies and deception are a big part of most affairs, wherever they are directed. I bet as often as not the CS ends up lying to both the spouse and the OP, and often significantly to him/herself as well... Edited January 20, 2008 by Trimmer
OWoman Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 Is there any irony in the idea that you are pointedly distinguishing "the soulmate type affair", and then in virtually the same breath, imply that you have experienced multiple of these affairs? Did I misread that, or do we just have very different understandings of the concept of "soulmate." (As disdainful of the concept as I am, that is quite possible...) The two statements were not related. For the record, I have had a number of As - on terms I set, which involved no strings, no promises, and no expectation of exclusivity. None of those MM ever lied about "their wives not understanding them" - like I could care less; if they wanted to talk about their marriages, find a MC - or not having sex with their wives (since sexual exclusivity was expressly excluded from the deal). Perhaps they lied in other ways - pretending they were not disappointed if I cancelled at short notice, or whatever - I had no investment so I never stopped to consider if that was "honest" or not. It simply didn't matter. I am currently involved in a different kind of A - one in which both of us recognised in the other something so resonant that we chose to give up our lives as we knew them so that we can be together. MM has left his W, and I've given up my multi-partner lifestyle - both voluntarily, spontaneously and unplanned. It just happened as the "next step" seeing as we wanted to be together. Has he been honest with me - yes, throughout this; his honesty was not self-serving in that it would more likely have backfired on him in terms of my track-record, but he simply had to be honest. Has he been honest with his W - clearly less so, at least initially. Dishonesty by omission rather than commission, but nonetheless it was only at the point of leaving her he told her there was "someone else" - something his W still chooses not to believe. Was he honest with himself? I think for a long time probably not. He's been in deep denial all these years that his M was abusive, despite MC telling him that. He chose to live co-dependently with an abuser because of denial of the consequences for himself, his W and especially his kids. It's only through the A that he's come to realise that Rs need not be abusive, they can be based on respect and indeed should be. He returned to counselling and is addressing his issues, and facing up to the realities he wasn't able to admit to before. Really.... ...integrated in every way... I am not one to start threads on the OM/OW board, but I would love to see a poll there asking for OM/OW's experiences of being "fully integrated in every way" into the MM/MW life. Do you really think there would be "many" agreeing with that? There would certainly be some - but it's a subjective matter and some people may FEEL integrated merely because their MM takes them out on the town and isn't embarrassed to be seen with them, while others would only feel integrated once the pastor has pronounced them man and wife. I feel integrated on the basis of being fully welcomed into his family circle, social circle and work circle, of being seen and treated as a couple by old friends / family and strangers alike, of being the one he shares his thoughts, hopes and dreams with, as well as his fears and concerns, and the stuff he does in his day. I feel integrated by the inclusion to family events, the joint addressing on christmas cards, the calls from his siblings to check on what gifts they should give him since I know his taste and what he already has. Perhaps other people have other measures or markers, but until evidence arises which suggests to me I'm NOT integrated, I'll just go by what I see.
Author Daphne Crane Posted January 20, 2008 Author Posted January 20, 2008 Are they? Are they open and honest enough to come out and tell the OP that he/she is probably a temporary fling and that he/she will eventually be discarded? What do you think? I think for the most part, when the OW/OM decides to have an A with a MM/MW, you naturally assume, it is a temporary fling...especially when its the 4 hours a month in various motel rooms. I guess with the "true soulmate"/the blast from the past=the one that got away type A, the playing field maybe different and you want that person in your life always. No matter what type of relationship we are in, eventually we all can be discarded.
Mr. Lucky Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 Has he been honest with me - yes, throughout this; his honesty was not self-serving in that it would more likely have backfired on him in terms of my track-record, but he simply had to be honest. Again, OWoman, how do you or any other OW know this to be true? At least until your MM left his wife, you weren't there when his head touched the pllow most nights and you weren't there when he started his day most days. You weren't there when his kids were born and raised and you weren't there as his marriage prospered or foundered. So you're getting whatever version of history, past and present, that he chooses to tell you. I do understand why it's important for you to think otherwise ... Mr. Lucky
OWoman Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 So you're getting whatever version of history, past and present, that he chooses to tell you. Not at all - he's not one to air dirty laundry. What I know of his M is what I've been told by others who've been present and have seen - his family, friends and colleagues. When I've asked him whether incidents they've recounted having witness were as described to me, he's reluctantly conceded that they did happen as such, but has always tried to rationalise his W's behaviour "she doesn't mean to be abusive, she had a bad childhood and doesn't know any better". Yeah whatever.
TMCM Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 I think for the most part, when the OW/OM decides to have an A with a MM/MW, you naturally assume, it is a temporary fling...especially when its the 4 hours a month in various motel rooms. I guess with the "true soulmate"/the blast from the past=the one that got away type A, the playing field maybe different and you want that person in your life always. No matter what type of relationship we are in, eventually we all can be discarded. While I don't discard the fact that there are spouses who are honest with their lovers, a great many are not simply because they are afraid that their lovers will end the affair before they are emotionally ready for it. As addicted as a cheating spouse is to his/her lover, the reality is that many of them do not want to end their marriages because they still love their spouses or because they have young children whose lives would be severly impacted by a divorce. These folks will be just as dishonest with their lovers as they are with their spouses. SB
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