Does this constitute abuse?

[Memories&Dust]

Hi there,

 

On Friday night I managed to upset my gf because I was being a bit grumpy about her not kissing me. We were both a bit drunk and our relationship has recently been turbulent, and she completely flipped out on me. It's a little bit of a blur, but basically she grabbed hold of my wrists to restrain me whilst she screamed at me, telling me I need to grow up and I was a stupid b*tch.

 

It really shocked me, I've seen her lose it with the furniture, but never with me. I kept telling her to let me go, and eventually I think she realised she had gone way too far and although I wanted to leave she wouldn't let me, saying she was just frustrated with the distance between us. She also accused me of setting the whole thing up, and seeing someone else (neither of which are true), and then she sort of switched into telling me how much she loved me.

 

I eventually got her to let me go to sleep in the spare room, and she stayed up all night fearing I would leave. She left a note under the door asking for my forgiveness and saying she has never loved anyone the way she loves me. And in the morning she looked so broken I felt like I couldn't leave her, so I stayed the weekend and just kept an eye on her mood and the situation, and left on good terms on the monday (which was my birthday).

 

I feel very confused by the situation, I know she is having an incredible hard time with life, her career, her sexuality, but I feel like a line has been crossed, I know that I have an acrimonious tongue, but I would never ever turn my frustrations onto someone like that. I'm frightened that if I stay with her, it may esculate, but if I leave her I will have abandoned her just like everyone else in her life.

 

Is this behaviour acceptable? Any thoughts/advice would be much appreciated...

[serial muse]

It's hard to tell, without knowing more of your history together...it could be that she's abusive, but the source of abuse is something that can be difficult to pinpoint, because in many cases the person who "flips" out is actually reacting to emotional abuse. See what I mean?

 

I just don't know...has she threatened to harm herself if you leave? That would be manipulative and abusive, too. Do you guys have a history of you saying "acrimonious" things that are clearly hurtful to her, and she has, over time, become more emotional about it? That would be her responding to another kind of abuse.

 

It sounds like maybe you guys need to have a talk about why she got so upset and what her fears are about you. If she's taking out her frustrations about life, her career, her sexuality (??) on you, then that is just not acceptable, and she needs to know that although you want to be supportive, you don't have to put up with that, and she'll have to figure out how to modify her behavior.

 

If her emotional flipping out is usually in direct response to actions/words from you, however, that's a different story, and you'll both need to think about the true source of this turbulence, and what you're contributing as much as what she is. I just don't have enough information to know which it is.

 

The sense I get is that she's taking things out on you in an unacceptable way, but I don't want to say that as a certainty, for fear there's something else going on...but either way, it sounds like it's time for a serious talk with her about what she's so afraid of.

Edited January 16, 2008 by serial muse

[Memories&Dust]

Thanks for your reply, it means a lot.

 

Our history is that we've been together over a year, it's always been rocky because there is a 10 yr age difference (I am the younger), and we are both women accepting that we're both Bi. All our previous relationships have been with men - mine have been decent ones, her have been a continuous stream of men who have cheated & lied.

 

I fell in love with her quite quick, and I'm the kind of person who expresses their emotions, I guess I wear my heart on my sleeve, something she doesn't deal with well at all. She's broken up with me twice in the past 8 months, only to beg me to come back, and she has an awful tendency to go hot/cold... Sometimes she is very loving, sometimes she can go a week without calling me (although she'll always text).

 

It's all been rather painful, I feel that the more I give her, the more she pulls away from me. She cannot accept her feelings for the same sex, and cannot bring herself to tell anyone about me, so our relationship has been a secret for it's duration. On the other hand, I have told pretty much everyone, and my friends have welcomed her with open arms.

 

She's been through a hell of a lot in the last year, and I've tried to support her through it all... I have made my mistakes, I'm not very good at communicating with her, and i'm very sensitive, meaning that she can unintentionally hurt me and I can respond quite rapidly and abrasively instead of being able to communicate... However, previous attempts to be an adult about things usually just end up with her yelling at me, telling me that I'm impossible to have an argument with, that she can't take it all.

 

The night before the incident she had accused me of having someone else in the background, and this was hugely hurtful to me because I'm been through so much to be with her, I would never cheat on her. I told her that I wasn't sure I wanted to spend the weekend with her because we seemed to have a trust issue, but she got so upset that I promised to come see her, and give her a hug, I just had some reservations.

 

Immediately prior to the incident, she had refused to kiss me, and well, I was fooling around a bit and told her she had 5 seconds to kiss me or she'll lose her chance. Obviously she didn't really respond and I got quite grumpy about the fact I'd traveled 3 hours to see her, and she wouldn't even kiss me... Childish I admit, stupid me. Anyway, she asked if something was wrong, so I said what had made me grumpy, and that's when she flipped...

 

As well as the grabbing hold of me, and name calling, she accused me of setting the whole thing up, of making her fall in love with me so I could punish her, of lying about seeing someone who has a crush on me.

 

She also threatened to cut her wrists if I left.

 

I know she was drunk, so that didn't help. I'm hoping to speak with her tomorrow night, she seemed to think that everything would be fine and we wouldn't speak of it again, and then told me over text that if i was calling to end things I should just do it now. I love this girl, but I don't understand her at the minute, and I'm afraid that despite all her declarations of love (that only really materialise after a fight), she just knows that I love her so much that I will keep on forgiving her, and therefore these kind of incidents will esculate.

 

Thanks again for your input.

[serial muse]

She also threatened to cut her wrists if I left.

 

I know she was drunk, so that didn't help. I'm hoping to speak with her tomorrow night, she seemed to think that everything would be fine and we wouldn't speak of it again, and then told me over text that if i was calling to end things I should just do it now. I love this girl, but I don't understand her at the minute, and I'm afraid that despite all her declarations of love (that only really materialise after a fight), she just knows that I love her so much that I will keep on forgiving her, and therefore these kind of incidents will esculate.

 

Wow. You've put up with a lot! It's greatly to your credit that you've been so understanding and patient, but I hope you're also thinking about whether this relationship is good for you!

 

Even though she's had terrible relationships in the past, that does not mean that you need to make up for all of it. It sounds like this relationship has been a lot of pain for you, and you really need to think about what it's bringing you - you can love someone, and yet end the relationship because you also need to take care of yourself.

 

She does sound abusive. I have to say it. This is emotional abuse. And it's incredibly manipulative to tell someone that you'll cut your wrists if they leave you. She knows how sensitive you are, and she's using that. I know she's in turmoil, but it really doesn't sound like this is good for you. It's not uncommon for someone who's been the victim of emotional abuse - as it sounds like she has, in previous relationships - to turn around and pay that forward to their next partner. And she's doing that, in spades - you're getting the full brunt of her pain and anger at others. And no matter how hurt she is, she doesn't have license to treat another person that way.

 

I think that you're right that she'll continue to behave this way, believing that you won't leave her. So I'm glad you're going to talk tomorrow; what are you planning to say?

[Ronni_W]

Escalating violence is never a good sign.

 

What you're describing is not a healthy, mutually agreed-to sub/dom relationship, so that you need her permission to "let you" do this and "let you" do that is another BIG red flag.

 

Whether it is "acceptable behaviour" is totally your call. Do you like being treated this way? Do you want to be treated this way? Are you going to be happy for the rest of your life being treated this way?

[Memories&Dust]

 

I think that you're right that she'll continue to behave this way, believing that you won't leave her. So I'm glad you're going to talk tomorrow; what are you planning to say?

 

I'm trying quite hard to work out what to say. Unfortunately she has currently gone AWOL, not answering her texts, not appearing on the websites I know she frequents. I get the impression she may be trying to make me worry that she's done something stupid, either that or she's just retreating into herself once again.

 

I want to say to her that she stepped over a line, and I've lost a lot of trust in her and the relationship because I've seen her be aggressive whilst driving/at members of the public who walk in her way/inanimate objects, but I never thought that would turn on to me. I want to say that after the incident her declarations of love seem hollow, and instead of bringing us closer together (as she believes) it completely tore me apart... Not just the physical side, but the accusations, the threats.

 

I want to say that she seems to have too much going on in her life to give this relationship/me the time, and thought it needs, and perhaps needs time to consider the mess that is her life. I want her to know that despite the fact she was drunk, it was her choice to be like that with me, and it didn't come from too much alcohol, it came from something inside, a build up of stress/depression, and because of that I very much fear it escalating, because inevitably I am going to p*ss her off at times...

 

I want her to know that I don't want to destroy the connection we share, and on this path it is certainly heading for destruction, so perhaps it's wise to not be a couple for a while whilst she sorts her head out, and I will be there for her as a friend as long as she needs me... I feel like I want to tell her she might need some help, that I have concerns about her mental health and the way she deals with the world, but i'm not sure that will go down very well...

 

All I know is I don't deserve to be treated this way, but I do love her.

[Keara]

I think what you want to say to her was clearly written, concise, and very well said. However...

 

Don't go into this naively, okay. She's going to go balistic. She fears you're going to leave her and so far she's guilted you into staying past when you've wanted to leave. She probably realizes this at some level. Her only self-worth comes from you, and she'll do anything to keep that intact. If that means hurting you into staying then she'll do that.

 

Couple of tips (my ex pulled the same guilt trips on me when I finally got sick of the bs). Everytime she has an outburst, tell her you won't continue the conversation unless she can handle this like an adult. If she doesn't, then walk away. Staying only rewards her behavior. All she wants is for you to stay... she gets that when she threatens to harm herself, or makes you feel bad for asking for respect from her.

 

If she mentions harming herself, then call her mother, or a friend of hers, or someone she knows, to come over and stay with her. If you have to, call the cops. My ex threatened to kill himself and I made his friend go over and stay with him. I don't know if the ex really would've gone through with it (I think it was a bluff), but I didn't want it on my concience.

 

Anyway... point is, if you don't let her know that her treatment of you is unacceptable then it'll continue. When she croses the line (and she will because she'll test whether you're serious or not) remove yourself from the situation completely. She has a choice still in keeping the relationship or losing you. Let her know exactly what is acceptable, and what isn't. Stick to your guns on this, or things will just get worse.

 

I don't know if she's healthy enough mentally for any of this to work. It might not. But she doesn't seem to be trying to help herself. And if she won't help herself, there is absolutely nothing you can do to help her. Remember that, okay?

[serial muse]

I want to say to her that she stepped over a line, and I've lost a lot of trust in her and the relationship because I've seen her be aggressive whilst driving/at members of the public who walk in her way/inanimate objects, but I never thought that would turn on to me. I want to say that after the incident her declarations of love seem hollow, and instead of bringing us closer together (as she believes) it completely tore me apart... Not just the physical side, but the accusations, the threats.

 

I want to say that she seems to have too much going on in her life to give this relationship/me the time, and thought it needs, and perhaps needs time to consider the mess that is her life. I want her to know that despite the fact she was drunk, it was her choice to be like that with me, and it didn't come from too much alcohol, it came from something inside, a build up of stress/depression, and because of that I very much fear it escalating, because inevitably I am going to p*ss her off at times...

 

I want her to know that I don't want to destroy the connection we share, and on this path it is certainly heading for destruction, so perhaps it's wise to not be a couple for a while whilst she sorts her head out, and I will be there for her as a friend as long as she needs me... I feel like I want to tell her she might need some help, that I have concerns about her mental health and the way she deals with the world, but i'm not sure that will go down very well...

 

All I know is I don't deserve to be treated this way, but I do love her.

 

You definitely don't deserve this! That she's aggressive with people who mean her no harm, that she can't properly control those impulses, is very worrisome, and yes, I'd say she does need help. I don't want to do an armchair diagnosis, but she needs to learn to manage her anger, at the very least.

 

I bolded something you said that I wanted to address - I think it's usually a mistake to think that if a person behaves a certain way in general, it'll be fundamentally different with a partner. Perhaps initially, during the "I want to impress you" phase, but ultimately, this is who she is right now. I've had that "I knew this about him, but I didn't think he'd be that way to me" feeling many times in the past...each time I was wrong. Like I said, this is who she is, at least at this time in her life, and the decision you'll have to make is whether this is a person you want in your life. I know it's hard, because you want to help her, but it sounds like she may need help beyond what you can or should give - professional help - to deal with the pain that's eating away at her.

 

Good luck with your talk today - I also thought your thoughts were clear and well-expressed. Let us know how it goes!

 

And BTW, I think Keara has a great idea in getting someone else close to her to sit with her, if she threatens to harm herself again.

[Memories&Dust]

We spoke last night, and she sounded so sad I just didn't know what to do.. she kept saying she was sorry but I was treating her like she hit me... I kept saying that it's the same moral line for me and she had destroyed all my safety... We agreed to make a go of it, but I can't feel good or safe, so I swallowed my fear and broke up with her this eve, which may have been the hardest thing i've ever had to do... and she yelled at me calling me a liar, saying that I was lying that I love her, and never to contact her again... I guess it's all I deserve, I feel so ****.. I feel so very **** for hurting her... I feel like a terrible person.

[StartingOver07]

We spoke last night, and she sounded so sad I just didn't know what to do.. she kept saying she was sorry but I was treating her like she hit me... I kept saying that it's the same moral line for me and she had destroyed all my safety... We agreed to make a go of it, but I can't feel good or safe, so I swallowed my fear and broke up with her this eve, which may have been the hardest thing i've ever had to do... and she yelled at me calling me a liar, saying that I was lying that I love her, and never to contact her again... I guess it's all I deserve, I feel so ****.. I feel so very **** for hurting her... I feel like a terrible person.

 

Her reaction is very much that of an abusive partner. Abusers are adept at somehow making the one they've abused feel sadness and guilt, while they experience none.

 

I am quite certain you will continue to hear from her.

[fishtaco]

Nah, don't feel bad. She's crazy. Anytime you see someone flip back and forth to this extreme, either they're crazy, or manipulative, sometimes both.

 

The thing is, had you given in to her actions, she'll then use it every time to get what she wants. It's good that you made a stand. And even better that you recognized that as a red flag and broke it off.

 

Oh and that crazy crap she said when you broke it off, it's a guilt trip to get you back. I'm glad you didn't budge, but looks like the guilt trip did it's damage anyway. Don't fall for it.

 

I bet she'll find the next boyfriend before you'll find your next girlfriend. So much for all that love she has for you.

[peace_pipe]

She also threatened to cut her wrists if I left.

 

Darwinism..... have to weed out the weakest. Most people who are serious about suicide don't talk about it. They just DO IT.

 

I had a best friend who committed suicide.

 

You know what I think? Good. One less weak person to pass on inferior genetics. I may seem crude, but I have no respect for people who take the coward's way out. You kill yourself - your pain ends but then you cause pain to all who surround you. Very selfish if you ask me.

[peace_pipe]

I bet she'll find the next boyfriend before you'll find your next girlfriend. So much for all that love she has for you.

 

The odds are pretty good.

 

It's pretty damn crazy how quick a woman will get UNDER another man to GET over you!

 

Each gender has their own faults... but the ladies take gold in this category.

[serial muse]

The odds are pretty good.

 

It's pretty damn crazy how quick a woman will get UNDER another man to GET over you!

 

Each gender has their own faults... but the ladies take gold in this category.

 

Dudes, stop bringing your personal agendas into it. And anyway, it doesn't even apply in this case.

 

M&D, it's true that she's still trying to manipulate you. Breaking up with her doesn't mean you don't love her, or that you don't care for her, or that you lied, or anything else she said in the heat of the moment. She was not being a good partner to you, and you were honest with her about it. It may be that she'll learn a lesson from this about boundaries. Maybe a wakeup call.

 

Hang in there.

[Lee725]

We spoke last night, and she sounded so sad I just didn't know what to do.. she kept saying she was sorry but I was treating her like she hit me... I kept saying that it's the same moral line for me and she had destroyed all my safety... We agreed to make a go of it, but I can't feel good or safe, so I swallowed my fear and broke up with her this eve, which may have been the hardest thing i've ever had to do... and she yelled at me calling me a liar, saying that I was lying that I love her, and never to contact her again... I guess it's all I deserve, I feel so ****.. I feel so very **** for hurting her... I feel like a terrible person.

 

You have done the right thing in my view.

Whilst you are there even on the phone with her she has no real reason to seek the professional help she needs. She looks to you as her outlet.

She may meet someone else but in fact unless she gets the assistance she needs she will in fact continue this process again & again with other people.

I can only hope that she does realize that she needs this help or perhaps someone else in her life (family?) will see it & will push her in the right direction.

 

Sometimes we need to be cruel to be kind.

 

This must be very difficult for you as it is quite clear you love her, otherwise you would not have been there this long.

Good luck with this & i hope that you are seeking emotional support from other people in your life as well as this is a very hard/sad position for you to be in.

[peace_pipe]

Is she HOT?

 

If so,

 

Just keep banging her until the next one comes along.

 

If not, find yourself a HOT girl immediately, and repeat step one.

[Memories&Dust]

If only it was that simple... It's not about hot or not, she was someone I love hugely, someone who I let into my heart. I suspect banging someone else will leave me empty. I've already been accused of being heartless tonight.

 

I guess I have an old head... Ultimately life to me isn't about sex, it's about connections...

 

Oh and I'm not sure if you noticed, but I'm also a girl...

 

Thanks to everyone for your support, right now I wonder if a) she's going to turn up at my door, or b) if she's safe.. God I hope she's safe, she's been through so much in her life... I doubt i'll ever forgive myself for this. I'm trying to save her pain. I just want to call her and make sure she's safe, but I know I have to step away now. I can't mess her up further.

[Lee725]

I've already been accused of being heartless tonight.

Her subjecting you to the emotional manipulation which she continues with is heartless in itself.

She may have had a hard life before you, however there are plenty of people who have suffered terribly their entire lives who do not behave in this manner.

This is a psychological problem she is facing, although i am only replying based on the information provided, i am fairly certain in saying that this goes beyond a behavioral issues. It is deeper than that.

 

I guess I have an old head... Ultimately life to me isn't about sex, it's about connections...

I am with you on that one, personally if i am going to have sex without a connection, i might as well sell it on the street.

It is meaningless.

 

a) she's going to turn up at my door,

I doubt it right now, although people have been known to travel distance when angry/upset in search of a resolution to their anguish.

 

She may turn up if you apply no contact to the situation which is the best course of action at this time in my view.

Breaking it off with her & then maintaining say phone or email contact with her will confuse her more, although it will be hard on you to maintain it.

 

b) if she's safe.. God I hope she's safe, she's been through so much in her life...

She will be OK.

As previous posters have noted, generally it is the people do don't talk about suicide who hurt themselves.

Does she have a family/other friends support network around her?

 

I doubt i'll ever forgive myself for this. I'm trying to save her pain. I just want to call her and make sure she's safe, but I know I have to step away now. I can't mess her up further.

As i said before sometimes we have to be cruel to be kind.

You are saving her not only from pain but from herself. She wont get help while she believes she does not have a problem.

Whether you call or not is your choice, but ultimately it will cause her more pain to maintain contact with you without the comfort of a relationship.

 

Believe in yourself right now, you know her better than anyone else on this forum, so if your instincts are saying that it is better that you don't be with her, trust yourself.

Good luck.

[Memories&Dust]

This is getting very messy, she texted me this morning to call me a liar, to tell me I had used her, that I did not love her, that I am a fraud. That I have broken her heart, and she has never hurt this bad. She is basically blaming me for everything, for not supporting her, for not giving us a chance... She said she is going to send back all my gifts.

 

I'm utterly torn apart, I have made her hate me, I don't think i've ever felt this bad. I understand she's hurting, but why is everything suddenly my fault? She knows I will take the blame if she gives it to me... I never meant to hurt her, I just lot so much trust and faith in the relationship. I had hoped she would go away and assess the situation, get some help and there would be a chance in the future, but that seems hopeless now. She hates me now... Do I deserve this?? I thought she was one of my soul mates, but she didn't like me telling her I loved her very much, she rejected me so much in the beginning, always so elusive... She broke up with me twice and it broke my heart each time... I never pretended to love her, I do love her... I just can't be in this relationship...

 

She texted again to say she bets I'm glad friday happened because it gave me an excuse to get out, and that she can't take my lies anymore so to leave her alone.

 

Please someone tell me how to deal with this? My last break up was so very amicable... This is a nightmare...

[Keara]

Memories, your gf is responsibile for her OWN actions. Before you ever mentioned breaking up, SHE was the one who treated you like crap, disrespected you, physically attempted to force you to do things her way. This is solely your GF's fault. She's not accepting she had any part in any of this, she places all the blame totally on your shoulders, and then whines because her life sucks????? wtf?

 

Please, don't accept what she says as truth. You sound like a really wonderful, big hearted person, who deserves so much better than this. Don't beat yourself up over this. Your ex-gf has no right to lay this at your feet and scream unfair.

 

I've been through something similiar. A lot of people have.. But you know in your heart what happened was wrong. Its not that you don't love the girl, but you aren't doing her any favors by letting guilt influence your decisions. If you choose to be with her, do so because she makes your life better, brighter and more enjoyable. Not because she makes you feel like shyt. Your ex can't even own up to her own actions, how could she possibly be a contributing partner to a real relationship?

 

 

She..

Called you a liar

told you that you had used her

told you that you did not love her

told you that you are a fraud.

Blamed you for not supporting her.

(blames you for the problems. No give and take, or acknowledgement of her part in this.)

 

You made her hate you. (How? By wanting someone who could handle problems in a healthy way?)

 

She knows you will take the blame (Intentionally says what she knows will cut you the most.)

 

Do I deserve this?? (NO!!!)

 

She broke up with me twice and it broke my heart each time (Its okay for her to do to you, but she's the victim? She treated you like shyt.)

 

she can't take my lies anymore so to leave her alone. (Manipulation. Reject you so that you'll chase her. Isn't that how the relationship began?)

Edited January 19, 2008 by Keara

[jcster]

I'm utterly torn apart, I have made her hate me, I don't think i've ever felt this bad. I understand she's hurting, but why is everything suddenly my fault? She knows I will take the blame if she gives it to me...

 

Which is why she is doing this.