Author Daphne Crane Posted January 16, 2008 Author Posted January 16, 2008 At least if you go to a spouse and say "I'm not happy, here's what I feel might happen if we don't make a change somehow...", or simply "I'm not feeling it any more, I want to leave," then you are showing some respect for the other person, and giving them a chance to look at all the information and make a choice for themselves. But what about when you do go to your spouse and say we have a problem and your spouse tell you everything is fine. She/he doesn't have a problem with the way things are and that's the end of the discuss. If you continue to try to talk, your spouse gets so upset and wants to fight. By cheating, you keep that information from them. And I just think that's, well, "cheating" them. I don't see any "good reason" to hide that truth from the person to whom you've sworn an oath of loyalty, of your own free will. Again, it may be no less painful, but it would show more loyalty and honor to let them go first before moving on with one's own life, than to deceive and lie to them, keeping them in the dark. I agree with you but when you add children into the picture, it's a different ballgame. Do you take the risk of telling the truth and lose your children? Because you know, as a way to punish is to keep the children away.
OWoman Posted January 16, 2008 Posted January 16, 2008 Seldom are cheaters magnanimous enough to allow their betrayed spouses the same opportunity to engage in an affair. In fact, most of them are vehemently opposed to their spouses cheating on them. Don't believe me? then I would suggest that the next time you encounter an acquaintance/friend who is having an affair, ask him/her how he/she would like it if they found out that his/her spouse had/was having an affairl. Don't be surprised if his/her answer is one of 'he'd/she'd better not'. When it comes to infidelity, cheaters are the epitomy of selfishness for they believe that affairs are their exclusive right and nobody else's. My experience on this has been the exact opposite - most of the CSs I've asked that question to have responded that they'd LOVE their BS to get physical with someone else - either to appease / balance out their own guilt for the A (because then the BS would lose the moral high ground) or because they're hoping the BS would then move on and end the M, which they themselves are reluctant to do for whatever reason. (Those that didn't respond that way shrugged and said they couldn't care either way - they'd already mentally checked out of their M and could care less what their BS got up to so long as it didn't involve them.)
TMCM Posted January 16, 2008 Posted January 16, 2008 (edited) My experience on this has been the exact opposite - most of the CSs I've asked that question to have responded that they'd LOVE their BS to get physical with someone else - either to appease / balance out their own guilt for the A (because then the BS would lose the moral high ground) or because they're hoping the BS would then move on and end the M, which they themselves are reluctant to do for whatever reason. (Those that didn't respond that way shrugged and said they couldn't care either way - they'd already mentally checked out of their M and could care less what their BS got up to so long as it didn't involve them.) I don't doubt you for one minute that the latter group that didn't respond to your question, have truly 'checked out of their marriage' for the simple reason that their indifference/apathy is a sign that they have lost all love for their spouses. BUT I would question that the former group would truly want to have their spouses become physically intimate with another man/woman for the reason I gave on a previous post regarding the viability of an open marriage. This group is still emotionally invested in their spouses that if they ever discovered that their betrayed spouses ever had or were having an affair, they would be deeply hurt. With the exclusion of the 'exit affair' cheaters, most cheaters would definitely not like their BS to have an affair. Bottomline, the motto for cheaters regarding their spouses is 'Do as I say Not as I do'. Edited January 16, 2008 by TMCM
OpenBook Posted January 16, 2008 Posted January 16, 2008 My experience on this has been the exact opposite - most of the CSs I've asked that question to have responded that they'd LOVE their BS to get physical with someone else - either to appease / balance out their own guilt for the A (because then the BS would lose the moral high ground) or because they're hoping the BS would then move on and end the M, which they themselves are reluctant to do for whatever reason. (Those that didn't respond that way shrugged and said they couldn't care either way - they'd already mentally checked out of their M and could care less what their BS got up to so long as it didn't involve them.) This group is still emotionally invested in their spouses that if they ever discovered that their betrayed spouses ever had or were having an affair, they would be deeply hurt. With the exclusion of the 'exit affair' cheaters, most cheaters would definitely not like their BS to have an affair. Bottomline, the motto for cheaters regarding their spouses is 'Do as I say Not as I do'. I agree with TMCM - but from a female perspective, looking at men. You're wasting your time asking them to see what they say - it's what they DO that makes all the difference. Men will say one thing and do another - and not think a thing of it. All men do this, whether they're cheating or not.
malaclypse Posted January 16, 2008 Posted January 16, 2008 Men will say one thing and do another - and not think a thing of it. All men do this, whether they're cheating or not. Oh this is crap. Some men and some women do this, others don't...it's not a question of gender.
Trimmer Posted January 16, 2008 Posted January 16, 2008 (edited) I agree with you but when you add children into the picture, it's a different ballgame. Do you take the risk of telling the truth and lose your children? Because you know, as a way to punish is to keep the children away. For someone who is that thoughtful about it, considering all the angles and advantages and disadvantages, then why does it seem like the only two options are: (a) do it and tell the truth later; or (b) do it and keep it hidden ? In this thoughtful process, why are these options not on the table: © don't do it, and work on the marriage until there is no possibility of repair, followed possibly by... (d) if you have exhausted all reasonable possibilities in ©, leave the marriage, which provides you the best possibility of a life of your choosing without "losing the children", and the opportunity to... (e) start a new life with a new partner in a healthy way, with a clear conscience, and at least modelling some kind of reasonable behavior for the kids (at least in comparison to (a) or (b) above.) The the original question was literally "Is there ever a really good reason to cheat", which I take to imply a thought process that would occur before deciding to cheat. Thus, I am separating my comments from those majority of cases where an affair "just happens" and the WS disingenuously claims to have had no control or not made a conscious choice. In the current discussion, I maintain that even when kids are part of the equation, the existence of the ©, (d), (e) sequence still provides a much lower risk path for all concerned, and therefore, I still don't see how there would be any "really good reasons" to go down the (a) or (b) path. The reasons that may seem "really good" to someone considering an affair come down to selfishness and laziness. I want to get my rocks off, but I don't feel like giving up the convenient life I have now. I want to have some action, to be more emotionally fulfilled, but I don't want to risk losing my kids... I won't claim that keeping an affair hidden is absolutely impossible, but it is fairly unlikely in the long run, so the idea of minimizing risk by hiding it is really just a huge risk exposure that affair partners fool themselves about and ignore until it blows up in their faces, to the ultimate detriment of "the kids" and everyone else anyway. Trying to find "really good reasons" to have an affair and hide it "to protect the kids" really doesn't survive the light of scrutiny, when you consider the ©, (d), and (e) options, does it? Edited January 16, 2008 by Trimmer
TMCM Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 I agree with TMCM - but from a female perspective, looking at men. You're wasting your time asking them to see what they say - it's what they DO that makes all the difference. Men will say one thing and do another - and not think a thing of it. All men do this, whether they're cheating or not. I understand your perspective but I would encourage you to read the posts from women who had or are having an affair while at the same stating that they love their husbands as proof that when it comes to actions not matching words, you will find that women are as just as equally adept as men.
Ariadne Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 I think there's a difference between asking: are there reasons that people do cheat (yes, of course), and are there good reasons (i.e. valid excuses) for people to decide to cheat. Obviously for the people who cheated, whatever their reasons, they were good enough. Doesn't mean that those reasons have to be valid according to Trimmer.
Trimmer Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) Obviously for the people who cheated, whatever their reasons, they were good enough. Again, I'm not talking about a post-action review of "why it happened." I accept there are almost always, if you are able to dig sufficiently deep after the fact, reasons that an affair happened. (In spite of my own experience where I never got back anything more than "I don't know" and "I wasn't thinking...") I am specifically taking the OP's post to be in the context of wondering about reasons to consider and deciding - beforehand - to enter into a hidden affair. I guess I can't help but read the OP's question as "are there justifications for making a decision to enter an affair before you've started one..." If I've misread that, then I'll stand down... Doesn't mean that those reasons have to be valid according to Trimmer. And I'm not even saying they aren't valid. If you feel it truthfully, we might as well consider it "valid." If one of the reasons my wife strayed was that she didn't believe it possible that I would ever be able to pay enough of the right kind of attention to her, and she believed that it wasn't possible for that to change, then regardless of the inaccuracy of her perception, I accept the validity of her feeling, in the sense that I believe it existed within her and motivated her behavior. But it's existence and validity alone didn't provide her with a "really good reason," to choose to enter an affair. I tend to believe that any "really good reason" one could come up with to justify entering an affair is actually much better applied as a "really good reason" to leave the marriage. And if you then try to mitigate that option with some factor like "but, what about children?" I will maintain that the probability of major family trauma when an affair is uncovered and the resulting and lingering negative effects on the family, on the balance, represent a greater risk of damage than a thoughtful attempt to do all one reasonably can to save a marriage, followed by as graceful an exit as possible, without an affair clouding the scene. Edited January 17, 2008 by Trimmer proofreading, then added last paragraphs
Ariadne Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 But it's existence and validity alone didn't provide her with a "really good reason," to choose to enter an affair. Again, really good reasons are according to you. For those people they obviously were really good reasons.
Trimmer Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Again, really good reasons are according to you. For those people they obviously were really good reasons. Of course, it's only my opinion. I don't think we will ever reach some universally objective truth on here, much as some posters (myself included!) sound like they are preaching it sometimes... So I understand what you are saying, but I'm still drawing a distinction between the reasoning considered before entering an affair, and the exploration of reasons realized after an affair has occurred. Maybe I need to go back and read over the thread again, but I would be interested to hear from WS's who have been in affairs, as to whether they felt - before they entered the affair - that they had "really good reasons" to justify a decision to move forward, or whether they feel like they just got swept up, swept in, carried along, and found themselves somewhere they didn't expect to be. I ask with an open heart, and I will listen without hostility: can anyone who has been a WS answer whether you thought you had really good reasons that motivated you to choose to enter an affair (say, as opposed to believing that you just found youself there, swept along, etc.)? Did you still think those original justifications were good reasons after the affair was going? After it was over?
JustBreathe Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Ariadne You've yet to answer the original question. "And there you go, affair is over and they are still together and happy as usual. There's plenty of cases like that, if you don't believe they happen you are being blind. Not always people divorce because of that, most don't." "I know a lot of happily or relatively happily married couples where one of the partners has cheated on some occasion, and life goes on and they stay together... Nobody is perfect. These things happen all the time. Many of the people that have been married for a long time, someone had an affair at some point." All of these comments are assumptions and weak justifications overly used by cheaters and do not answer the original post. Having said that... To paraphrase: You assume that people who live with the knowledge that their marital partner had an affair go on are happy as usual. Because two people stay together doesn't mean that they're happy and all is forgotten and in the past. Infidelity destroys what a marriage is supposed to be about: Loyalty, trust, love and faith to name a few. Oftentimes, once broken, these things can't be rebuilt. Sure, they can stay together, but their marriage is never the same. They are never truly happy with each other again even though they might appear to other people that they are. "Not all people divorce," true, but the marriage is never the same once adultery has entered the picture. "Nobody is perfect. Thse things happen all the time." So? Does that make it right? That's a good reason to cheat? "Again, really good reasons are according to you... For those people they obviously were really good reasons." Anyone can manufacture good reasons if they are inclined to cheat. People can justify anything they do. Stealing, child or spousal abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse... even murder to name a few. Because they are able to compartmentalize their irrational self-centered behavior does that mean they have good reasons for what they did? The poster wasn't asking whether people cheat or not, whether they stay together or not after infidelity has entered their marriage, whether infidelity occurs in most marriages, whether they are happy afterwards, or whether people are perfect. The poster asked whether there was ever a GOOD REASON to cheat. So far, all you've offered are common worn out justifications over-used by cheaters to rationalize their behavior.
cj1988 Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Ariadne You've yet to answer the original question. "And there you go, affair is over and they are still together and happy as usual. There's plenty of cases like that, if you don't believe they happen you are being blind. Not always people divorce because of that, most don't." "I know a lot of happily or relatively happily married couples where one of the partners has cheated on some occasion, and life goes on and they stay together... Nobody is perfect. These things happen all the time. Many of the people that have been married for a long time, someone had an affair at some point." All of these comments are assumptions and weak justifications overly used by cheaters and do not answer the original post. Having said that... To paraphrase: You assume that people who live with the knowledge that their marital partner had an affair go on are happy as usual. Because two people stay together doesn't mean that they're happy and all is forgotten and in the past. Infidelity destroys what a marriage is supposed to be about: Loyalty, trust, love and faith to name a few. Oftentimes, once broken, these things can't be rebuilt. Sure, they can stay together, but their marriage is never the same. They are never truly happy with each other again even though they might appear to other people that they are. "Not all people divorce," true, but the marriage is never the same once adultery has entered the picture. "Nobody is perfect. Thse things happen all the time." So? Does that make it right? That's a good reason to cheat? "Again, really good reasons are according to you... For those people they obviously were really good reasons." Anyone can manufacture good reasons if they are inclined to cheat. People can justify anything they do. Stealing, child or spousal abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse... even murder to name a few. Because they are able to compartmentalize their irrational self-centered behavior does that mean they have good reasons for what they did? The poster wasn't asking whether people cheat or not, whether they stay together or not after infidelity has entered their marriage, whether infidelity occurs in most marriages, whether they are happy afterwards, or whether people are perfect. The poster asked whether there was ever a GOOD REASON to cheat. So far, all you've offered are common worn out justifications over-used by cheaters to rationalize their behavior. You are correct the question is there ever a GOOD reason to cheat, NO will always be the answer to that question. All people that cheat do it for whatever reason at the time and justify some how while it is happening. AFTER the A is over, they still may try and justify it to themselves, but NO ONE will agree with them except them !
cj1988 Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 You are correct the question is there ever a GOOD reason to cheat, NO will always be the answer to that question. All people that cheat do it for whatever reason at the time and justify some how while it is happening. AFTER the A is over, they still may try and justify it to themselves, but NO ONE will agree with them except them ! I have never told anyone that had an A, I totally uderstand why and how your d--- fell in her vagina or I totally understand how his dick fell in your vagina.....I agree with you on WHY you cheated.....never will say that in a million years no matter what the reason, none are valid and all are wrong....I can say this because in my life I have been the WS and the BS......both are horrible places to be !
Trecherized Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 Infidelity is worse than death. Death is not a choice. You die. That is it. You choose to cheat and hurt the ones you love. I think that is why it hurts so bad. No one EVER deserves the pain it causes. My brain is permanently changed as a result. To me it is a form of psychological trauma that is caused. Nothing can justify that! Yes! My brain is toast!
Ariadne Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 Hi, All of these comments are assumptions and weak justifications overly used by cheaters and do not answer the original post. The poster asked whether there was ever a GOOD REASON to cheat. Ok, I give you a good reason. The husband is on a business trip and the waitress wants to have sex with him and he wants too. Why? Go figure but he does. So he has sex with her and the wife never finds out. The good reason? He felt like it. So he cheated. Infidelity destroys what a marriage is supposed to be about: Loyalty, trust, love and faith to name a few. Not always. I've known women that knew for certain that their husbands cheated leaft and right and they couldn't care less.
Trimmer Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 The good reason? He felt like it. So he cheated. So you're saying that would be a really good reason for your partner to cheat on you? That would be a really good reason for you to cheat on your partner? There you go, then...
Sal Paradise Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 Perhaps a better way to word the question would be.... Do you personally feel cheating is ever justified under any circumstances? The problem with Ariadne's argument is that she is putting sole judgment of whether an action is justified or not on the the person who commits it. If you applied the same logic to any action it could lead to ridiculous arguments such as... The rapist felt like raping that woman so he had a good reason. Before someone argues that cheating involves two consenting adults and rape involves one consenting adult and one victim, I would argue that infidelity involves two consenting adults and one victim (or possibly two victims). The person being cheated on is being victimized. That's not to compare the severity of pain that each victim endures but to merely point out that infidelity is not a victimless act. I don't think the original poster was asking specifically whether or not the person who committed the offense felt it was justified. They were asking whether or not those who read this thread felt so. Under that assumption whether or not a hypothetical cheater feels justified or not is irrelevant. Many people who wrong others whether violently, sexually or by a more benign means feel justified. That doesn't however mean that they were justified. If we accept "I felt like it" as a justifiable excuse then we're opening up a can of worms that as I have already pointed out can take the discussion into ridiculous directions.
Ariadne Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 So you're saying that would be a really good reason for your partner to cheat on you? That would be a really good reason for you to cheat on your partner? There you go, then... Yes, I'm saying that would be a good reason for someone to cheat. What you are saying is, cheating should never happen.
Owl Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 Yes, I'm saying that would be a good reason for someone to cheat. But is it a good reason to hurt your spouse, if THEY didn't agree that its a good reason? I think your views on marriage likely differ greatly with those of most people as well.
Ariadne Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 But is it a good reason to hurt your spouse, if THEY didn't agree that its a good reason? I think your views on marriage likely differ greatly with those of most people as well. The person who is cheating is cheating. You don't ask for someone else's opinion to cheat. That is like asking the teacher to cheat on the test.
JustBreathe Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 "The person who is cheating is cheating. You don't ask for someone else's opinion to cheat. That is like asking the teacher to cheat on the test." Huh??? You lost me on this one. BTW: What grade are you in?
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