What happened to love?

[Kamille]

this is a reflection prompted by another thread of mine about the fact that my bf smokes and I can't handle the smoke.

 

I got chastised for not making an informed decision earlier on and not walking out on the relationship earlier since I was supposed to be fully conscious and aware that the smoking thing was going to be an issue.

 

my question is: to what extend do we control who we fall in love with?

 

I feel like, in the last few years, dating and love have become a business. People are selling books tellling us to make lists of non-negotiables, telling us what constitues someone being into us, or how to be individuals that will attract other indivuals.

 

whatever happened to romantic love?

[amaysngrace]

my question is: to what extend do we control who we fall in love with?

 

 

whatever happened to romantic love?

 

 

It's all about the choice. We choose who we let into our hearts and we decide how much we will love them.

 

But everyone knows our judgment can be clouded when we love first without using our thought process at all or barely at all. We tend to overlook things even if we know we ought to be paying attention.

 

And if the other person has certain character flaws and we decide to get emotionally involved anyway then we have no one to blame but ourselves. It's part of acceptance. And you just can't love someone completely if you don't accept that person completely. But if you do accept someone completely for who they are then there is really nothing more romantic than that IMO.

 

But it's not a business IMO. It's more of being personally responsible. And making a good choice for yourself. But if there is something about a person that you could never ever accept then you owe it to yourself to not get involved in hopes that they'll change. People very rarely change.

 

I also think that some people don't want an everlasting relationship. Which is why they become involved with dead-ends to begin with. And there is nothing romantic about that at all.

[Nemo]

whatever happened to romantic love?

They took it out behind the Shack and beat the crap out of it. But it will be back, don't you worry about that.

But everyone knows our judgment can be clouded when we love first without using our thought process at all or barely at all.

Amaysn post, as always. Well, not this bit. More, the rest of it. I just like to quote people out of context.

 

For example, we might think, "OMG, that guy is on FIRE!" Lots of hot sex follows, to back up our previous observations. It's way too late to back out when we discover that where there's fire, there's smoke.

 

Love is an addiction. Love is also a decision. Just like amaysngrace says, it's a choice. Because one won't be feeling it all the time, but one has to trust enough to give it all the time.

[Leoni]

my question is: to what extend do we control who we fall in love with?

Attraction can be instantaneous, a snap decision the first moment of meeting someone. At this point, you can control your attraction by doing nothing about it or not allowing your body to dominate your far more practical mind. This is the best time to stand back and evaluate someone for partner qualities.

 

Beyond that, we allow ourselves to fall in love, many times unwisely.

whatever happened to romantic love?

Romantic love is never enough. If you have core incompatibilities, you'll end up fighting your way to divorce court or a life of unhappiness. You can fall in love but you can also fall out of love.

 

Best to define your own crop of non-negotiables, ensure your partner meets these qualifications, before allowing yourself to fall in love. It's unfair to change the rules midstream, without full consent from both partners. It will only cause resentment which builds.

[Ariadne]

...books tellling us to make lists of non-negotiables, telling us what constitues someone being into us, or how to be individuals that will attract other indivuals. whatever happened to romantic love?

 

Here is a talk by Osho about teachings of love:

 

[amaysngrace]

 

For example, we might think, "OMG, that guy is on FIRE!" Lots of hot sex follows, to back up our previous observations. It's way too late to back out when we discover that where there's fire, there's smoke.

 

 

Love is an addiction. Love is also a decision. Because one won't be feeling it all the time, but one has to trust enough to give it all the time.

 

Exactly. Complete love is just, well, complete. And it is based on many things. If one component or more is missing then it won't ever happen.

 

When it does though it is utterly romantic.

[Lizzie60]

this is a reflection prompted by another thread of mine about the fact that my bf smokes and I can't handle the smoke.

 

I got chastised for not making an informed decision earlier on and not walking out on the relationship earlier since I was supposed to be fully conscious and aware that the smoking thing was going to be an issue.

 

my question is: to what extend do we control who we fall in love with?

 

I feel like, in the last few years, dating and love have become a business. People are selling books tellling us to make lists of non-negotiables, telling us what constitues someone being into us, or how to be individuals that will attract other indivuals.

 

whatever happened to romantic love?

 

This is sooo true... and sooo ridiculous... why do we need books to tell us how to think, how to react, how to love, how to make love, how to dress, what to say, what not to say, what to accept from him/her... what not to... etc... etc... It's insane... It's like people feel they can't think by themselves unless they read a book... totally ridiculous...

 

and who's making all the bucks.. the authors... I feel like anyone can write a book about personal stuff and will become rich overnight...

 

To what extent do we control... well I say we have total control of who we want in our life and who we don't want...

 

You don't need a book or anyone to tell you that YOU don't like cigarette smoking.. so therefore if the guy smoke... then you have the choice, from the very beginning to let him go or not..

 

If you don't.. well you are putting yourself at risk to be miserable in that relationship.

 

I do not date smokers... period... if he smokes. it's an instant turn-off... simple...

 

Wy wait until it becomes a problem? That's the part I don't understand.

[Storyrider]

There are always going to be problem areas in a relationship, no matter how many points of connection you find. The trick is knowing yourself well enough to figure out whether the connection points will hold you together as the problems push you apart. It is all about self knowledge. Which connection points must be the strongest for you? Which problems will be fatal?

[Kamille]

It's all about the choice. We choose who we let into our hearts and we decide how much we will love them.

 

But everyone knows our judgment can be clouded when we love first without using our thought process at all or barely at all. We tend to overlook things even if we know we ought to be paying attention.

 

And if the other person has certain character flaws and we decide to get emotionally involved anyway then we have no one to blame but ourselves. It's part of acceptance. And you just can't love someone completely if you don't accept that person completely. But if you do accept someone completely for who they are then there is really nothing more romantic than that IMO.

 

But it's not a business IMO. It's more of being personally responsible. And making a good choice for yourself. But if there is something about a person that you could never ever accept then you owe it to yourself to not get involved in hopes that they'll change. People very rarely change.

 

I also think that some people don't want an everlasting relationship. Which is why they become involved with dead-ends to begin with. And there is nothing romantic about that at all.

 

 

Who doesn't have character flaws?

 

I for one don't believe we entirely choose who surrounds us in our life, from family, to friends, to neighbours to lovers - nor do I think it is healthy to try and exercise so much control over it. How else do you grow then to be confronted to people who are different from you.

 

I agree that people rarely change and that one shouldn't go into a relationship expecting change. I am not asking my bf to stop smoking, not even asking him to stop smoking inside. I am looking for a solution that would make it more bearable for me. I believe that relationships are above all about compromise. I also don't believe it is reasonnable to expect that both partners will stay exactly the same as they were at the onset of the relationship. While you can't expect people to change - people DO change and a good relationship, in my book, is one where both partners are open to the other's needs and committed to putting the work in making he relationship work.

 

I think what you are describing scares me a little because to me it sounds incredibly individualistic. And like we have control over all the paremeters in our lives.

[Leoni]

I think what you are describing scares me a little because to me it sounds incredibly individualistic. And like we have control over all the paremeters in our lives.

We do have control over every parameter of our lives.

 

Doesn't it make more sense to learn which aspects are negotiable or non-negotiable to you?

 

You must admit that wanting your partner to do something different than what he's done all along, is controlling behaviour.

[norajane]

Who doesn't have character flaws?

 

I for one don't believe we entirely choose who surrounds us in our life, from family, to friends, to neighbours to lovers - nor do I think it is healthy to try and exercise so much control over it. How else do you grow then to be confronted to people who are different from you.

 

I agree that people rarely change and that one shouldn't go into a relationship expecting change. I am not asking my bf to stop smoking, not even asking him to stop smoking inside. I am looking for a solution that would make it more bearable for me. I believe that relationships are above all about compromise. I also don't believe it is reasonnable to expect that both partners will stay exactly the same as they were at the onset of the relationship. While you can't expect people to change - people DO change and a good relationship, in my book, is one where both partners are open to the other's needs and committed to putting the work in making he relationship work.

 

I think what you are describing scares me a little because to me it sounds incredibly individualistic. And like we have control over all the paremeters in our lives.

 

Smoking isn't a character flaw. It's a bad habit and an addiction, and it can be modified, moderated, or ended.

 

Character flaws are things like choosing lying to save your ass over honesty, yelling abusive things and calling you a bitch during arguments, choosing to cheat on your partner instead of confronting the issues within yourself and your relationship that are causing problems, valuing money or status over kindness, being totally self-centered and self-serving...

 

A smoker can one day quit, while someone with a major character flaw will always be a creep. You can love someone with a bad habit, but you're better off not acting on any love interest in people who are creeps.

[Kamille]

We do have control over every parameter of our lives.

 

Doesn't it make more sense to learn which aspects are negotiable or non-negotiable to you?

 

You must admit that wanting your partner to do something different than what he's done all along, is controlling behaviour.

 

I'm not saying falling in love is a completely random thing. I mean, there are qualities my bf has, ways he treats me, the way he communicates that I think make him an ideal partner.

 

And I'm not sure I consider trying to find a compromise about a situation as controlling behaviour. I think what you guys don't measure is that we are both trying to figure it out. Again, as I stated, I am not asking him to stop smoking or stop smoking inside. We're trying to find a compromise.

 

And I disagree with the notion that we control ALL the parameters of our lives - or that we should even want to. Life happens. I learn more when I walk into environments I don't know then when I try to control everything around me.

 

Basically, trying to figure out the smoking thing is actually teaching both bf and I a lot about each other, about how we communicate etc. He is a beautiful human being that I am thankful to have in my life. He helped me through a really difficult time two months ago just like I am also helping him right now with stuff he is dealing with. I'm glad I didn't rule him out because of some notion of love as mathematics.

[amaysngrace]

Who doesn't have character flaws?

 

I think what you are describing scares me a little because to me it sounds incredibly individualistic. And like we have control over all the paremeters in our lives.

 

 

Nobody is perfect. Right. That's where acceptance comes in.

 

I wasn't saying that we have control of everything in our lives, but love is a choice.

 

You chose to love a smoker. You didn't have to. You could have said good bye to him long before you let him into your heart but you didn't. You went there fully knowing he had this thing that you don't like. He knew you didn't like smoke. You guys stayed together anyway. He probably thinks you accepted it about him. So for you to complain about it now is unfair. You led him to believe something about you that was untrue. You changed for him. You weren't who you are. You kept quiet in order to be liked or whatever.

 

And now you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

It's kind of like the single woman who becomes involved with a married man knowing full well that he's married and then all of a sudden has a problem when he won't leave his family for her. She thought she could handle it in the beginning but once she loved him it wasn't enough. She could no longer accept him.

 

She based her decision to get involved without thinking of how her emotions for the guy would come into play. Which was a choice she made way back when yet it seems as though it was personally irresponsible. She didn't think it through.

 

It's best to find someone whose flaws you can live with because they have such strong character traits to make up for where they lack. No nobody is perfect. But you can find someone who is perfect for you.

 

This guy doesn't sound like he is. And you bitching at him for something you accepted before makes it seem like you aren't perfect for him either.

[Ariadne]

I am looking for a solution that would make it more bearable for me.

 

You can't stand that guy already.

 

Yeah, it's nice to have someone to care for you etc etc.

 

That's your dilemma.

[Lizzie60]

Nobody is perfect. Right. That's where acceptance comes in.

 

I wasn't saying that we have control of everything in our lives, but love is a choice.

 

You chose to love a smoker. You didn't have to. You could have said good bye to him long before you let him into your heart but you didn't. You went there fully knowing he had this thing that you don't like. He knew you didn't like smoke. You guys stayed together anyway. He probably thinks you accepted it about him. So for you to complain about it now is unfair. You led him to believe something about you that was untrue. You changed for him. You weren't who you are. You kept quiet in order to be liked or whatever.

 

And now you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

It's kind of like the single woman who becomes involved with a married man knowing full well that he's married and then all of a sudden has a problem when he won't leave his family for her. She thought she could handle it in the beginning but once she loved him it wasn't enough. She could no longer accept him.

 

She based her decision to get involved without thinking of how her emotions for the guy would come into play. Which was a choice she made way back when yet it seems as though it was personally irresponsible. She didn't think it through.

 

It's best to find someone whose flaws you can live with because they have such strong character traits to make up for where they lack. No nobody is perfect. But you can find someone who is perfect for you.

 

This guy doesn't sound like he is. And you bitching at him for something you accepted before makes it seem like you aren't perfect for him either.

 

I agree...

 

We DO not choose our family.. but we sure can choose our friends and our lovers... if the 'flaw' is a deal breaker... then don't get involved...

 

I just can't understand why this is even an issue..

 

If someone can't stand a drug addict, a gambler, or any other type of addiction.. then don't get involved... geeezzzz

 

Kamille... just get over the smoking.. you like the guy.. well deal with it.. ...

[amaysngrace]

Kamille... just get over the smoking.. you like the guy.. well deal with it.. ...

 

Exactly. Accept him or don't. It's your choice.

[Leoni]

I'm not saying falling in love is a completely random thing. I mean, there are qualities my bf has, ways he treats me, the way he communicates that I think make him an ideal partner.

 

And I'm not sure I consider trying to find a compromise about a situation as controlling behaviour. I think what you guys don't measure is that we are both trying to figure it out. Again, as I stated, I am not asking him to stop smoking or stop smoking inside. We're trying to find a compromise.

Then stay at your place, where smoking isn't allowed indoors. Of course this begs the question of, why isn't he willing to smoke outdoors at his place, then? If this is an issue now and you find some form of compromise, what's to stop you from making an issue of the smell of smoke on him, later on?

 

And I disagree with the notion that we control ALL the parameters of our lives - or that we should even want to. Life happens. I learn more when I walk into environments I don't know then when I try to control everything around me.

We do control all the parameters of our lives. We decide what influences we want in our lives and what we don't want. This includes everything from what clothes we wear to the type of people we surround ourselves with.

 

Basically, trying to figure out the smoking thing is actually teaching both bf and I a lot about each other, about how we communicate etc. He is a beautiful human being that I am thankful to have in my life. He helped me through a really difficult time two months ago just like I am also helping him right now with stuff he is dealing with. I'm glad I didn't rule him out because of some notion of love as mathematics.

Love isn't a mathematic. Life is a mathematic. Probability makes far more sense than going for it, then pulling back.

 

Are you certain you're not continually trying to sabotage your relationship?

[lindya]

And I disagree with the notion that we control ALL the parameters of our lives - or that we should even want to. Life happens. I learn more when I walk into environments I don't know then when I try to control everything around me.

 

I very much agree with this. I think some people learn by the experiences and mistakes of others...and they, perhaps, are the people who seek to have a strong degree of control over various areas of their life.

 

Giving up control now and again and just seeing what happens is a risky undertaking, but some people are driven to do that. They need to learn from their own experiences, rather than simply following a set of rules on how to lead a successful life.

 

It's not necessarily the most logical, sensible or easy way to live a life...but then again, letting logic dictate over emotion 100% of the time may make Jack a somewhat dull boy and life a very dull thing.

Edited January 12, 2008 by lindya

[Leoni]

There's risk and there's calculated risk.

 

It's like taking the known bad boy into your life and then getting upset because he's bad and won't change. While the bad boy example is extreme, taking a smoker into your life and hoping he eventually wants to quit for you, is a little unrealistic.

 

Sometimes each of us has to learn the hard way, how this rarely, if never, works. Yes, I've been there, but not with a smoker...

[konfuzd]

Love is about comprimise. There may be a small (very, very small) fraction of people who find that "perfect" match, someone who fits 100% of their wish lists in a partner, but for the most of us, we need to be realistic.

 

There is probably something about you that drives him bonkers too, but he sees all the good you have to offer, and the negative things seem so much smaller.

 

I have to disagree with people that love is entirely a choice. When you meet someone who makes your heart beat a little faster, invades your thoughts at the most inconvenient of times, and gives you a sense of inner warmth, that is beyond your control. If you've found that, I think you're pretty lucky, and you need to decide if this one skeleton in his closet is gonna make you close the door on him.

 

To me, love isn't about finding that 'perfect' person, but someone who you love enough to put up with their crap, and hold on to hope that they'll do the same for you.

[lindya]

It's like taking the known bad boy into your life and then getting upset because he's bad and won't change. While the bad boy example is extreme, taking a smoker into your life and hoping he eventually wants to quit for you, is a little unrealistic.

 

Possibly. On the other hand, I know people who gave up smoking after their partners did. Partly because they wanted to help their partners quit by not smoking around them...but also because they were influenced by the healthy example someone close to them was setting. Someone else mentioned that although smoking's a bad habit, it's not the same as a deep rooted personality flaw that's never going to be removed. Lots of people do manage to quit cigarettes and stay off them.

 

Say a woman's 40 pounds overweight, and she meets a man who she really connects with - but who isn't physically attracted to overweight women. Would she lose weight for him? Maybe. It would probably depend on who she wanted to be deep down inside. If being plump was such an important, familiar and defining aspect of her self image that she didn't want to let it go, then she'd hold out for a guy who liked her as she was.

 

If, on the other hand, she secretly longed to be slim but just couldn't find the motivation to lose weight, the guy might provide her with some of that motivation she's looking for.

 

Should we expect a lover to make positive changes to their lifestyle for us? I don't think we can ever bank on it, but there's nothing wrong with being optimistic that a fulfilling relationship will encourage them to be the best they can be. Humans aren't supposed to stagnate - and often positive changes are triggered by relationships. While no lover should be perceived as the rescuer who will make our life perfect, it does seem to me that a lot of people out there do start to make better, healthier choices once they've met someone who's important to them.

 

I suspect Kamille is hoping that's what will happen with this guy, and I hope it does too. Maybe I just can't fathom why anyone who smoked wouldn't be looking for some kind of motivation to help them quit.

Edited January 12, 2008 by lindya

[Leoni]

Should we expect a lover to make positive changes to their lifestyle for us? I don't think we can ever bank on it, but there's nothing wrong with being optimistic that a fulfilling relationship will encourage them to be the best they can be. Humans aren't supposed to stagnate - and often positive changes are triggered by relationships. While no lover should be perceived as the rescuer who will make our life perfect, it does seem to me that a lot of people out there do start to make better, healthier choices once they've met someone who's important to them.

 

I suspect Kamille is hoping that's what will happen with this guy, and I hope it does too. Maybe I just can't fathom why anyone who smoked wouldn't be looking for some kind of motivation to help them quit.

I'm not suggesting that people never change, but experience tells me they need to change for themselves, not for a moving bar of expectations. As long as it's optimism and not divisionary expectations or tactics, it might work. Where it will fall down, is if it becomes a consistent point of contention creating a non-negotiable for both parties, from an original negotiable.