reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Reboot - while this makes sense to a degree, how do you square this with all the stories you hear about "deadbeat dads", who abandon their kids and wives and don't support them? Maintenance courts can't keep up! One seldom hears of mothers abandoning their kids - certainly there are some, but nowhere near as many fathers that do that. Are these guys genetically programmed differently, or how can there be such very different responses with equal vehemence?Note I did say "for the most part". I don't have any statistics (nor would I want to start THAT argument here anyway ), but I would wager that "deadbeat dads" are a pretty small minority. And anyway, I have no scientific proof to back up my statement, it was just a personal observation on my part based on the people I've known in my life. It could as easily be geographical or cultural as genetic.
OWoman Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Note I did say "for the most part". I don't have any statistics (nor would I want to start THAT argument here anyway ), but I would wager that "deadbeat dads" are a pretty small minority. And anyway, I have no scientific proof to back up my statement, it was just a personal observation on my part based on the people I've known in my life. It could as easily be geographical or cultural as genetic. I suppose it's just a touchy issue for me, having been married to one...
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I suppose it's just a touchy issue for me, having been married to one... Men that won't take care of the children they created should have their gonads cut off so they can't repeat that mistake. Just my opinion mind you.
LadyDi Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Maybe my opinion is different. I feel I can love my husband just as much as I always have, but I also love another man. The love I have for him is different than what I feel for my husband. Is it because we have so much history together? Children together? Who knows. But I do still love the man to pieces. We can love more than one person at a time!
Meaplus3 Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) I love my friends dearly, but when one phones late at night because her car has broken down and she can't get home, it's not duty that gets me out there, it's choice. OWoman I would feel the exact same way it would be my choice to help a friend in that situation not my duty! I am going to define love as a "Choice", backed up by an action. AP:) Edited January 11, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
scaredinlove Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I think love is the most important and morals are important too but they are just rules that change from one culture to another. In some cultures people can have more than one spouse and be married and have concubines or all kind of arrangements. So what is really right or wrong??? In this culture one is not alowed to have lovers outside marriage but I believe 55% of man and something like 46% of woman do. So I guess this rule is not very good since so many broke it. I just think if people were honest with themselves and accepted others to be free life would be a lot easier. Yeah 10 years ago you married this person and you thought you would be there forever, but things change...So why just pretend it is the same. I would never stay married to someone that loves someone else. It is just too much pain.But people look at life differently. Once I was in a very unhappy marriage and I stayed with him for the kids and I ended up leaving cause I could not lie to myself anymore. So everyday I wake up I feel very good cause I gave myself and my exH a second chance to be happy again. I am not saying that people should just walk away from their marriages , but if you are not happy, than you should. Kids will survive and thrive, my did. that is what i think.
Je Ne Regrette Rien Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Love for children is unconditional, immeasurable and all-consuming. They are a part of their parent, a part of the bond between two parents whether that bond has been tested by an affair or not - it will always remain. Love for another human can not be measured alongside the love for children. They are seperate entities yet are often inextricably entangled in the relationship between affair partners. In simple terms, a child is part of the married man. An other woman is an addition in his life. But when the relationship between a married man and an other woman is seen to affect the relationship between the parent and child, that addition must be lost for "the greater good". The greater good is where a married man believes that his own happiness is not a justification for his childs unhappiness. However, it is his moral compass which defines his childs unhappiness, IMO. When a married man perceives unhappiness of his child because of his relationship with another, it is the affair that will eventually end. However, if the married man can reconcile that his children are not negatively affected (or at least are temporarily affected and the greater good becomes something other than remaining in the same household i.e. to stop parents arguing in front of the children) then the affair can blossom into a full-time relationship and the marriage can end. I think its a terrifying position to be in for anyone. MM may be unhappy and not be able to justify leaving because he perceives the children will be in a worse position than him being there. However, remaining married "for the children" could actually detract from what could be a happier existence for the children - but finding out whether that is the case means burning bridges with children, wives, friends your life - its a pretty big risk to take. What if it all goes wrong? What does MM say? "I just wanted to find out whether it was better I left and found happiness but now my children are suffering and I want to go back but I've burnt too many bridges to do that" or how about "But I found love!" It just doesn't stack up. I know that many berate the married man who has children and leaves. But in my mind, I know that coming even close to the love my MM has for his children is amazing. I see how difficult it has been for him, and I see how he has now prioritised us and separated. It has been a long journey, but the justification finally came in the fact that the children were starting to be affected by the marriage instead of the affair. Had this not happened, I dont know if he would have found the strength to leave, and to be honest after all we have been through, I dont think I could have justified him leaving myself.
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I think love is the most important and morals are important too but they are just rules that change from one culture to another. In some cultures people can have more than one spouse and be married and have concubines or all kind of arrangements. So what is really right or wrong??? In this culture one is not alowed to have lovers outside marriage but I believe 55% of man and something like 46% of woman do. So I guess this rule is not very good since so many broke it. I just think if people were honest with themselves and accepted others to be free life would be a lot easier. Yeah 10 years ago you married this person and you thought you would be there forever, but things change...So why just pretend it is the same. I would never stay married to someone that loves someone else. It is just too much pain.But people look at life differently. Once I was in a very unhappy marriage and I stayed with him for the kids and I ended up leaving cause I could not lie to myself anymore. So everyday I wake up I feel very good cause I gave myself and my exH a second chance to be happy again. I am not saying that people should just walk away from their marriages , but if you are not happy, than you should. Kids will survive and thrive, my did. that is what i think. If I understand the original post, most people seem to be missing the point of the question and trying to turn this into the same old tired debate. It isn't about if it's ok to cheat or get divorced or stay with a cheater or have an affair with a married person or if the kids will be ok. The question is, what is love to you and is it ok to betray your own personal "morals/convictions/whatever" if they stand in the way of "love". There are already plenty of threads where we can debate what bitter fools BS are or what selfish wretches OP are..... (Right frannie? I'll shut up if it's me missing the point.)
whichwayisup Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 In some cultures people can have more than one spouse and be married and have concubines or all kind of arrangements. So what is really right or wrong??? Are you saying that if you and your MM got together, got married, you would be OK with him having a concubine(s), an OW on the side while you were his wife, having children with him?
bentnotbroken Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Are you saying that if you and your MM got together, got married, you would be OK with him having a concubine(s), an OW on the side while you were his wife, having children with him? Good question. I would like to hear the answer to that one myself.
bluebluesky Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world? Does the moral requirement NOT to have an affair trump the love/need you feel to be there for your children when you no longer love their mother? (personal point of course). Everybody has their own unique set of morals that they have developed based on their own personal experiences. And while people have a right to personally disagree with the morals of someone else, nobody's morals are superior to another's. I think if a lot of people will go back and read that last sentence, Love Shack would be a better place. Now, to answer your question, if a person chooses to become involved in an EMR and falls in love, that person has just established a heirarchy in their own set of morals; namely love trumps. And that is perfectly fine. Because it is a personal set of morals. I think where a lot of people struggle (and why the post on OW boards, or get professional therapy, or whatever self-help works for them) is that they become conflicted and confused by trying to overlay the morals of another on top of theirs. There is a very vocal group that believes that EMRs are wrong... end of story. Based on statistics (for divorce rates and number of people that have been involved in an EMR), there is a similarly sized group that believes that EMRs are acceptable. Whatever half you happen to be in, you should follow your own moral compass and ignore the interference on your signal coming from the other side.
whichwayisup Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Do 'morals' really out-value love? Do promises you made to someone ten years ago really mean more than your emotional needs today? And does a BS really want someone to stay for duty rather than because they are with the person they most love in the world? Reverse this and the same could be said for the cheater who stays in the marriage and cheats, doesn't leave his/her spouse. EVERYBODY has their own reasons why they want to stay married whether or not you (general you) agree with it or not, there are reasons. Some stay because they live up to their vows NO MATTER WHAT and that's their belief system. Some think that's settling, it all depends on your own personal views on living up to your own committments and how seriously one takes their vows. Seems vows these days are not what they used to mean as society as whole is much more ME ME ME, selfish, what's in it for ME, I need happiness and won't settle for ANYTHING less. NOONE is happy 24/7, and that goes in a marriage or in a relationship as well. Too many throw in the towel too quickly and either cheat or just give up on the marriage, the person too quickly.
Owl Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Something I posted on another thread...seems to fit here now tho: Well, a 'fact' would be that when someone's moral code causes them to decide that my marriage is meaningless therefore its perfectly fine to pursue and sleep with my wife causes ME pain as a direct result of THEIR action. We all seem to agree that no one should force 'their moral code' on us. But we refuse to accept responsibilty for their pain and suffering when we intentionally do it to them. My moral code isn't 'superior' to anyone else's. I can't force anyone to live within my moral code. By the same token, my life should not be damaged/destroyed by THEIR moral code and beliefs.
Je Ne Regrette Rien Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 If I understand the original post, most people seem to be missing the point of the question and trying to turn this into the same old tired debate. It isn't about if it's ok to cheat or get divorced or stay with a cheater or have an affair with a married person or if the kids will be ok. The question is, what is love to you and is it ok to betray your own personal "morals/convictions/whatever" if they stand in the way of "love". There are already plenty of threads where we can debate what bitter fools BS are or what selfish wretches OP are..... (Right frannie? I'll shut up if it's me missing the point.) Sorry, okay reboot, my mistake. It's probably where I am in my life at the moment seeking out the parts of Frannies question that I feel I can answer. It it okay to betray my own morals/convictions/whatevers because of my love for MM? Before MM no it wasn't. I would never betrayed my "morals", but that was mainly because everything was black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. But where did these morals come from? Did I awake one morning and think - this is how people should live? This is what is right and what is wrong? No, many of my morals were conditioning from outer sources such as parents, school, society, church. After meeting MM, I saw the grey areas. And I didn't betray my morals, I changed them to suit my altered understanding. I am a moral person. I am a loving person. Do the two walk hand in hand when in an affair? Sometimes, depending on whether it is love or it is a lust affair. Love doesn't provide me an excuse to be in an affair. Love provides me a reason.
NoIdeaAtAll Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Not sure of the time difference on this forum - so wondering if Reboot is around...... am just wondering if this original post is about LOVE and what that means in relationships and duties between married couples and their children.... and what people feel they ought/should do when they take their vows and making their marriage work.... or whether this post is about stepping outside of the marriage and just about morals duties whilst falling in love with someone else. Dependant upon what the original post is about - I have a question. (Does that make sense?) (Not in a good way right now - but got thoughts spinning in my head)
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 am just wondering if this original post is about LOVE and what that means in relationships and duties between married couples and their children.... and what people feel they ought/should do when they take their vows and making their marriage work.... or whether this post is about stepping outside of the marriage and just about morals duties whilst falling in love with someone else. Well, I assumed it was about either one.
GreenEyedLady Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I've read alot of the responses here and it seems like there are two groups... The duty group and the love group... I have never felt that parenting my children is a duty, it is a privlege... And there are those that fall into the duty group who would probably never leave their partner because they said vows and that's the way it is...Alot of BS's fall into this category... And there are those (myself included) that fall into the "love" group...I think love is a choice...You can choose to nurture or starve it...Doesn't take rocket science to figure out that if you starve it, it will die... And myself personally, I would never doom myself to a life of misery for the sake of duty...What a waste of life...You only get one and well, I plan to live mine well... As for morals and such, just because mine aren't the same as someone else's, doesn't mean I don't have any...And I guess I am at the point where I don't care if someone likes them or not... If there is no love, then what is there? Hate or indifference? Would you want to feel either of those from your mate?
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 After meeting MM, I saw the grey areas. And I didn't betray my morals, I changed them to suit my altered understanding. I am a moral person. I am a loving person. Do the two walk hand in hand when in an affair? Sometimes, depending on whether it is love or it is a lust affair. Love doesn't provide me an excuse to be in an affair. Love provides me a reason.Fair enough.
Owl Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 And there are those (myself included) that fall into the "love" group...I think love is a choice...You can choose to nurture or starve it...Doesn't take rocket science to figure out that if you starve it, it will die... I partially agree...I think that love is both a choice (a verb) and a feeling. And the choice to nurture or starve it is right on the money. And that's why I have an issue with the "just happened" theory of affairs. It's ALWAYS a choice to nurture your feelings for someone to grow into love. And...while you absolutely CAN starve it to death, its also very very possible to bring it back from the brink of death when you've learned what you need to do to feed it. Which is why I push for WS's to try recovering their marriage before they do anything else most of the time.
GreenEyedLady Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I partially agree...I think that love is both a choice (a verb) and a feeling. And the choice to nurture or starve it is right on the money. And that's why I have an issue with the "just happened" theory of affairs. It's ALWAYS a choice to nurture your feelings for someone to grow into love. Yeah but if they tell you that they're not married and they are, that kinda blows your whole theory about nurturing feelings for someone you shouldn't away...
Owl Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Yeah but if they tell you that they're not married and they are, that kinda blows your whole theory about nurturing feelings for someone you shouldn't away... ABSOLUTELY!! It should also blow away the idea that they will never lie to you either...
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 ABSOLUTELY!! It should also blow away the idea that they will never lie to you either...Well, if they "love" you they won't.
NoIdeaAtAll Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Morals? Yes, my "morals" are very important to me. They are who I am. Family, children, home... these are the important things in life. When "love" leads you to betray these things, you are just being selfish. How can something that makes you alone feel good and yet hurts all the other people in your life be love? Nothing any of you say can change the truth in that. Maybe I'm the odd one, but I don't understand how people can love someone one day and not the next. I can buy a new car every few years because I don't love cars. I can't do this with people. Hi Reboot et al Never had a debate online before.... don't know if I am now or just debating with myself here - as I said - spinning..... If you love someone - really do love them - he is your husband, the father of your children - when you married you married in your heart for life. You took your vows before God and you believed in them and him. Nothing really went horribly wrong with the marriage - it wasnt perfect and needed some work - but you still hold on to the duty and responsibility for your beautiful children. You love your children more than life itself and they are part of your husband. When you look at them, you see your husband - and even when you are feeling really peed off with all the cr*p t happens in your life - you still try because marriage meant commitment for the duration. Then - something happens - the love you have for your husband comes up against the love you have for your child. Something happens to your child and no matter how much your husband loves your child, wants to be a good father, wants to protect him, wants to do the right thing - his ability as a father to deal with his childs problems stands in the way of his duty and responsibility. And though you all try so hard to do the right thing and work through the difficulties - the child's problems are so extreme - that even with the greatest will in the world - something has to give. So - do you keep the marriage together as the "illusion" of what husband, father, duty, responsibility is all about - or do you end the marriage, still love your husband, but make a decision based on trying to bring the child and father back together. Is that love? When you love your child so much that you know the only way he will have a relationship with his father is if your marriage ends and the father is forced into MAKING his relationship with his child work. And meanwhile - everyone hurts. The children hurt because the marriage has broken up - the husband hurts, the families hurt, the little brother hurts but the end result is that finally - the elder child has some form of relationship with his Dad. And his Dad loves him so much - but he cannot accept all his difficulties. Do you see my predicament? I ended my marriage - not because of my child or for my child - there were a million and one other reasons why - but the crux of it was that no matter how much my husband and I loved one another - whilst we were living in the same house, in a marriage - the core of where my duty and responsibility lay for my child overrode my duty and responsibility to make my marriage work. I guess I am saying that LOVE betrayed what I valued in my marriage because LOVE for a child meant the marriage had to end. Doesnt make a lot of sense a? Family, children, home - all ended because if the marriage had stayed in situe - someone would have got seriously hurt!!! It could have been my husband, it was me - and my child is so very emotionally damaged that he does not live with either of us. Just so no-one gets the wrong idea - my son has extremely high functioning autism. He is a good kid. My husband is a good person who made mistakes. I am a good person who has made mistakes. My son and his little brother are innocents. We have all suffered and all tried to love in the best way possible. Family, home, morals, duty, responsibility ... in the name of LOVE or not. Who knows. (RB - have read your first thread - think you may have an honest opinion on this as and you seem forthright. You mentioned your lad in your post so may have some understanding of problems with kids. Unfortunately my child can't make the choices in his brain like other kids - but he is getting good help. Just thought you may be able to offer me some perspective or an opinion on what I have said. Don't mind if you'd rather not comment tho)
reboot Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 RB - have read your first thread - think you may have an honest opinion on this as and you seem forthright.Wow. I wish I could say something wise and knowing, but I have no idea what that would be except to offer you my sympathy. Your situation makes mine seem trite by comparison. My son's problems were mostly of his own doing (with a little help from his mother and me), not something related to a medical condition. Just plain old teenage stupidity. I hope you and your husband can find some way to put the pieces of your lives back together, one way or the other. I guess sometimes when life hands us lemons we just have to suck on them.
scaredinlove Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 If I understand the original post, most people seem to be missing the point of the question and trying to turn this into the same old tired debate. It isn't about if it's ok to cheat or get divorced or stay with a cheater or have an affair with a married person or if the kids will be ok. The question is, what is love to you and is it ok to betray your own personal "morals/convictions/whatever" if they stand in the way of "love". There are already plenty of threads where we can debate what bitter fools BS are or what selfish wretches OP are..... (Right frannie? I'll shut up if it's me missing the point.) I think you missed the point! What I said is honest to onself and happiness and love is more important than duty! I didn't say anything about cheating or called BS fool. Please don't twist what I said!
Recommended Posts