Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Why is it, when one person in a relationship calls truce, the other can't believe it? If someone has hurt you numerous times, it leaves you wide open for more hurt or watching for signs of the same treatment and reacting in a knee-jerk fashion, when you see or think you see the same signs.
OWoman Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Everyone wants to feel appreciated and loved, even if the relationship is dysfunctional. You would be surprised how many times the wind is taken out of somebody's sails when you say, "you know, I really appreciated it when you did......" Exactly, Kasan - why should it work one way only, with Lanky doing all the giving, when all he's offered in return is a reduction in abuse? He should not have to negotiate his way out of abuse, with compliments or anything else. He should simply be able to demand that he be treated with respect in a relationship the same way he treats his W with respect. His W is ducking the responsibility for her behaviour here, and putting it all on him - if he treated her appropriately - "like a queen" - then she wouldn't have to abuse him. Hello?
Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Exactly, Kasan - why should it work one way only, with Lanky doing all the giving, when all he's offered in return is a reduction in abuse? He should not have to negotiate his way out of abuse, with compliments or anything else. He should simply be able to demand that he be treated with respect in a relationship the same way he treats his W with respect. His W is ducking the responsibility for her behaviour here, and putting it all on him - if he treated her appropriately - "like a queen" - then she wouldn't have to abuse him. Hello? Will you stop empowering him to believe that she's the only one guilty? She's not. What I see in the OP is that he's a passive guy, who pulls away and frustrates the hell out of her. She reacts poorly, as well.
Kasan Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 If someone has hurt you numerous times, it leaves you wide open for more hurt or watching for signs of the same treatment and reacting in a knee-jerk fashion, when you see or think you see the same signs. I usually agree with you but not in this case. I have been hurt numerous times in my marriage, so has my husband. We have been masters at wielding the sword that will cut the deepest and do the most hurt. Once a truce is called, then I don't watch for signs of the same treatment.
Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I usually agree with you but not in this case. I have been hurt numerous times in my marriage, so has my husband. We have been masters at wielding the sword that will cut the deepest and do the most hurt. Once a truce is called, then I don't watch for signs of the same treatment. Kasan, this is why your marriage works. Not everyone appears to be so willing to do this, hence the dysfunctional marriages and relationships in general. What's more important to people within the relationship, the win/self-protection or the relationship itself? Y'know?
Kasan Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 What's more important to people within the relationship, the win/self-protection or the relationship itself? Y'know? Okay, gotcha!
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 Have you discussed this issue with her? That this caused some serious resentment with you? Yes, I have. We've discussed it many times... Unfortunately it has now become one of those pivotal events that I look back upon. One that seems to give me some perspective on this relationship.
Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Yes, I have. We've discussed it many times... Unfortunately it has now become one of those pivotal events that I look back upon. One that seems to give me some perspective on this relationship. What was her perspective on this pivotal point? Discussing and resolving, are two different things. If there was resolution, you also need to let it go.
OWoman Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Will you stop empowering him to believe that she's the only one guilty? Only if I were to be convinced that she's not. On the evidence Lanky has provided - and that's all any of us have to go by, aside from our own speculation - she's abusive, and he's withdrawn from the R in order to protect himself from sustaining further hurt from that abuse. He's "guilty" in the sense that he's been enabling her abusive behaviour by not putting his foot down at the outset, and putting up with it so long, but that "guilt" to my mind does not equate with the guilt due someone who abuses someone they supposedly love in the first place.
Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Only if I were to be convinced that she's not. On the evidence Lanky has provided - and that's all any of us have to go by, aside from our own speculation - she's abusive, and he's withdrawn from the R in order to protect himself from sustaining further hurt from that abuse. He's "guilty" in the sense that he's been enabling her abusive behaviour by not putting his foot down at the outset, and putting up with it so long, but that "guilt" to my mind does not equate with the guilt due someone who abuses someone they supposedly love in the first place. Withdrawal is also a form of abuse and control.
Meaplus3 Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Withdrawal is also a form of abuse and control. This is sooo true! AP:)
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 I can't remember if there was a resolution or not, but I know I need to get it behind me...
Kasan Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I can't remember if there was a resolution or not, but I know I need to get it behind me... How could you not know, if this was a pivotal moment in your relationship?
Trialbyfire Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Here are two links that discuss passive-aggressive behaviour. The link from wikipedia describes it and the link from psychologytoday, makes four suggestions about how to address it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_aggressive http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20060307-000001.html
hidee79 Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Unless the compliment is sincere and not fished, it's meaningless. Right now, I feel that any compliment you give, your wife will throw back at you. It's a catch-22 situation: she wants you to compliment her, but now that she's told you, she'll be suspicious when you do. My suggestion: forget about your wife for a while. Focus on you. Make a list: 1. Traits and actions I have/have done to help me in a healthy, long-term relationship 2. Traits and action I have/have done that have been destructive for a healthy, long-term relationship. I'm not just talking about your marriage. Imagine your ideal marriage and woman. What sort of man would this ideal woman deserve? This exercise may take a couple of weeks of real soul searching. It takes a lot of courage to be extremely honest with oneself. Also, it may help to ask friends, family members, even ex-gf's, their honest opinion. If you hear the same stuff, you know you have a pattern. Point is - you need to improve your marriage for your own satisfaction. So far, it sounds like you're improving to please your wife. This will only build resentment. See this as an opportunity to become a better man.
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 Yes, I am most likely passive-aggressive. And it may have caused many of the problems in our marriage. Thanks for the links...I've always been curious about the actual implications of this behavior. Supposedly, being P-A is a trait of "Mr. Niceguys"...it's one of the many negative traits of our personalities. I suppose it's a way to manipulate without confrontation or aggression. Kasan, it felt pivotal because of the way it made me feel that week. It was very hurtful and made me question whether I should even be in the relationship. I can't remember if there was a resolution because we discussed it many times...if there was...it was to put it behind us and move ahead. My wife would not easily admit that name-calling and screaming is wrong...therefore, the resolution was sort of obtuse, if that makes sense. It took over 3 months for her to admit that it's hurtful to call me names and be demeaning. And it took that long for her to recognize that intimacy and sex is necessary for a romantic relationship. Oh, I do remember the resolution. It was for me to just start fulfilling her needs, with the hope that she'll start to feel it again. We recognized that we're both in a Mexican standoff and I've been trying to step up, making the first step. Unfortunately, when we did get into fights, the name calling and screaming would surface, then I felt like I was back to square one again. Now that she's making an effort not to scream, it's time for me to not be stubborn and continue on giving her what she needs. I want to make a full effort at this relationship before I make the decision that we're incompatible and that it will never work. I thanked her for painting the pool deck yesterday...hopefully she took that as a compliment.
Kasan Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Yes, I am most likely passive-aggressive. And it may have caused many of the problems in our marriage. Thanks for the links...I've always been curious about the actual implications of this behavior. Supposedly, being P-A is a trait of "Mr. Niceguys"...it's one of the many negative traits of our personalities. I suppose it's a way to manipulate without confrontation or aggression. I want to make a full effort at this relationship before I make the decision that we're incompatible and that it will never work. I thanked her for painting the pool deck yesterday...hopefully she took that as a compliment. Wow, you just had your light bulb moment huh? My husband in the early years of my marriage was a lot like you. He grew up in a house where screaming, and hitting was the norm due to the large amount of alcohol that was consumed on a daily basis. He was your text book case of PA--why I didn't see it in you is beyond me. I am ashamed to admit this, but I would crank my husband up just to see if I could get a rise out of him. One day he just snapped, and you could say that he lost his mind. I will never forget that day, and it changed our marriage forever. We learned how to argue, with no name calling ever, and when we argued, we resolved the issues then and never brought them up again. We also learned how to negotiate, both of us getting what we needed and wanted out of the marriage. I remember feeling great resentment with my husband, when I couldn't get him to give me a definitive answer or for that matter gave me that look. You know, that slightly superior look that says, I am above it all? Whatever, enough of that..... You can work on this you know, even if it doesn't help your marriage, you could certainly see some benefit down the road.
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) hidee79, thanks for the ideas. Yes, I do need to do some soul searching. I've been passive in the relationship. I've turned my back on the problems, who I am, what I want, etc because it's easier and it avoids confrontation. I like the ideas of the lists. I need to clear my head and think this all out. Yes, I have always focused on improving the marriage to make my wife happy...to make her stop being unhappy, complaining, crying, etc....another Mr. Niceguy trait. We just want those feelings to go away, so we'll give in. This is unhealthy, though... I need to deal with her being unhappy about certain things...those things that I need in order to be happy...those non-negotiable items. I'm reading Mr. Niceguy and honestly, I'm afraid of letting her know. She may take offense to it and worry that I'm going to leave her or change or whatever...so in order to avoid this, I'm "sneaking" it...in Mr. Niceguy fashion...it's ironic. Edited January 7, 2008 by LankyGuy
hidee79 Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I thanked her for painting the pool deck yesterday...hopefully she took that as a compliment. I think you did a great job. According to this article, positive re-inforcement is much more effective than pointing out bad behaviors.
hidee79 Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I'm reading Mr. Niceguy and honestly, I'm afraid of letting her know. She may take offense to it and worry that I'm going to leave her or change or whatever...so in order to avoid this, I'm "sneaking" it...in Mr. Niceguy fashion...it's ironic. First of all, STOP!!! Focus on yourself. You are the only person you can control. You can't control whether she takes offense, etc.. Sometimes, things resolve themselves without any effort on your part. In Western culture, we believe in always doing something. In Eastern Zen culture, doing nothing is pretty significant. Giving up control, and surrendering is pretty significant. Maybe, trying too hard has f*cked thing up. Maybe, it's time to just let it go. Accept that she will feel angry, resentful, or whatever. And she has every right. And accept that you feel confused, ambivalent. And you have every right. Right now, instead of external action...maybe internal action and self-reflection is the key. Have you tried therapy?
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) Stop? You mean stop worrying about how she's going to handle it? Yes, I understand that I need to do that... Yes, I've been to individual counseling for probably 2 months or more...back in 99 or so and last year. The first was focused on me as a person since we were having problems back then. It was helpful for me to get an idea of how my upbringing affected my self esteem, emotional intelligence, etc. The second was to get me to think in ways to make my wife feel special, etc. It was for the relationship itself. I didn't realize at the time that there were more problems than that. That was all that my wife needed, but I needed much more in order to feel "that way"...and that's where we are now. Edit...it was probably 2 months each time...perhaps longer. Edited January 7, 2008 by LankyGuy clarification
a4a Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Stop? You mean stop worrying about how she's going to handle it? Yes, I understand that I need to do that... Yes, I've been to individual counseling for probably 2 months or more...back in 99 or so and last year. The first was focused on me as a person since we were having problems back then. It was helpful for me to get an idea of how my upbringing affected my self esteem, emotional intelligence, etc. The second was to get me to think in ways to make my wife feel special, etc. It was for the relationship itself. I didn't realize at the time that there were more problems than that. That was all that my wife needed, but I needed much more in order to feel "that way"...and that's where we are now. Edit...it was probably 2 months each time...perhaps longer. can you explain this (above in bold) in more depth. TY
Author LankyGuy Posted January 7, 2008 Author Posted January 7, 2008 Sure. She's been asking me to do things to make her feel special, etc and it's felt so hard to do it....very unnatural. We've gone to counseling on 3 occasions in the last 7 years to come up with ways for me to do these things. I finally realized that I don't feel "that way". The reason is because we have no intimacy...sex is a need that I have. I have always felt self-conscious about it...possibly because of my wife's hang-ups about it. Plus, my wife was often combative when I brought it up, basically wishing that it was not a need of mine. I realized from reading, etc, that without sex we can't have the romantic relationship that is needed for someone to want to do those romantic and thoughtful things...things that I did in the early days of the relationship when we were intimate.
whichwayisup Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I think I mentioned this before, but start small. Bring her flowers on the way home from work, start complimenting her on a personal level.
a4a Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Sure. She's been asking me to do things to make her feel special, etc and it's felt so hard to do it....very unnatural. We've gone to counseling on 3 occasions in the last 7 years to come up with ways for me to do these things. I finally realized that I don't feel "that way". The reason is because we have no intimacy...sex is a need that I have. I have always felt self-conscious about it...possibly because of my wife's hang-ups about it. Plus, my wife was often combative when I brought it up, basically wishing that it was not a need of mine. I realized from reading, etc, that without sex we can't have the romantic relationship that is needed for someone to want to do those romantic and thoughtful things...things that I did in the early days of the relationship when we were intimate. Can you give an example of the bold above? Do you realize she needs/may need romance and her needs met to want sex? I have to say it would be a much harder task to allow someone who I felt was not meeting my needs to allow him to put his penis in me than it would be for me to cook him a romantic breakfast (example) or meet his emotional needs (outside of sex). It likely could feel like a physical violation to her. She may have her own hang ups from her past? But if you are PA - you are adding a great bit of your own issues to this M. You have no idea how difficult, frustrating, and hard it is to live with a PA person.
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