Question about values

January 5, 2008

What wonderful replies, you all. Thank you so much. You've all given me a lot to consider.

To Sunshinegirl:

Quite honestly you haven't posted a single thing about him that makes me think he was anything special.

Okay. Can you please help me on this one. What, from what you've gleaned about him through what I've said about him, makes you feel he is nothing special? The two friends I have who know him keep saying the same thing. Even at the beginning of our relationship, they said they felt I had a lot more to offer him than he me. Everyone keeps telling me that he sounds like nothing special. And yet this makes me so confused, because I see him as very special. Like I said, I don't waste my time with people that don't really grab me, and there are few people that have ever really grabbed me. He really was the first person I could truly call a "best friend." I never felt bored by him. In his hometown milieu, everyone seemed to look up to him. He is the Golden Boy of his family. He doesn't lack for friends. What do you and others see that I don't? And I'm not asking this to be caustic in any way; I seriously don't see it and I want to understand what I'm missing. It would really help me to understand.

To michaelk:

There is nothing here for you to feel ashamed or silly about. Not the fact that you got more out of the relationship than him, not the fact you continue to feel for him, and certainly not the fact that he left you.

Thank you for your kind words. They nearly made me cry. Re: getting therapy, funny but I just ended my therapy that I started back in February. I agree that therapy is invaluable: from ages 21-24 I put myself through my own 4x/wk psychoanalysis and it changed my life. Since then, whenever I've had difficulty that wouldn't go away by my own efforts, I've gone to a therapist. This time around, I just felt I was putting out a lot of money and it wasn't getting me anywhere or opening my mind to a new perspective and so I decided, as part of my 2008 resolution to delineate a fresh path for myself, to stop for now. Part of it is that I question the value of my propensity for introspection. Why I do is because, in part, my ex was never particularly or openly introspective (has the ability but always resisted it and my "role"--which he at first really welcomed and which he eventually dumped me over (I'm sure that was the part of the reason)--was to 'hold his head to the heat,' so to speak. He hasn't done anywhere near the emotional work I've done, and yet his life seems to have always gone so much better than mine. It all leads me to think that maybe I question things too much. As you can see, though, I can't really help it...and I want to find a way to make it work for me, as a gift I have, and not have it be an incumberance that frightens me and makes me wish at times I could be someone else. That's not good and I want to develop a different attitude about this tendency of mine, while also developing an ability to just do things without thinking about them so much (trying online dating is one effort in that direction, even while a big part of me resists it as a ridiculous waste of time).

This probably was more info than you wanted but there it is. No therapy for me for the next little while. I have to muscle through this on my own, and dare to try doing things a little differently without outright rejecting the way I'm accustomed to doing things. If any of that makes sense.

January 5, 2008

I eventually got to a place where I totally understood that the Universe has someone else lined up, to guide me to my next level of becoming. BUT if I only looked back at "him and where I'd already been", I probably was not going to see my new "teacher". Be careful not to miss your NEXT teacher!!!

See, this is the kind of notion that inspired this thread. My ex didn't just serve the role of "teacher" to me. I think in our relationship there were ways in which he was my teacher, and ways in which I was his. I know he probably felt like I always had the reins, but I think that was his problematic perception based on his insecurities and not at all the truth: I was CONSTANTLY soliciting him to be a PARTNER in all the decisions made on behalf of this relationship; he perpetually avoided discussions about how to handle our relationship, leaving me to make decisions on my own and then resenting me when they didn't satisfy him. But I digress:

He wasn't just a role played at a certain stage of my life. While I was aware of the roles he did play, there was also the "him-ness" of him that I loved and that had nothing to do with how he served me or my life or my future hopes. I just enjoyed him for who he was. I relished his company. Not ONCE did I feel bored by him or things he had to say. Which brings me to this paragraph of yours: What do I do with the fact that I don't want transient relationships to carry me one by one forward in my life? I want ONE person, who will remain with me for the rest of my life, who will annoy the crap out of me even while he turns me on spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, physically, and who I learn from unendingly so that even when things are in a rut I can feel that staying in this crucible that marriage can be, that teaches its constituents how truly to love AS EQUALS, is far more enriching overall than any venture over to the "greener grass," the "something new and better" ever could be? At some point it's gotta be not "onto the next" but "this is IT"--and the "nexts" and "betters" and "news" are things you CREATE from your own internal resources operating in concert with opportunity. I didn't and don't NEED my ex to make my happiness and I don't think I ever, implicitly or explicitly, asked him to (though perhaps he might disagree; I can't know). I WANTED him. He was a BONUS. ANd so that's what I'm having such trouble reconciling: I know there will be "nexts"--new catalysts for growth--but I WANTED him. Paradoxically, even knowing that I don't NEED him makes it harder to get past my feelings for him than if I just recognized over this past year that he filled a need and nothing more.

I desperately want him to slip into the past in my mind, and I guess I just have to trust that time will take care of that...eventually...maybe not in the time frame I'd like. And the truth is, as I think about it here, maybe one reason I can't put him in the past is that even though a part of me has given up on ever getting back together with him let alone ever hearing from him, is because another part of me can't let go of the hope.

Why can't I let go of the hope? I guess because I feel this disbelief that he could just purge me from his life in the way he did. He told me last february, in the clearest communication he ever mustered in the entirety of the 5 years we were together, that he wanted absolutely nothing to do with me. He knew every cord of attachment he had to cut and he cut every.single.one in his e-mail to me. It was unbelieveable. It seemed like MORE than a breakup; it was like a Perfect Erasure; a clean, untraceable killing. Something absolutely unnatural. And because of that, I suppose I just cannot find a way to wrap my mind around it, nor can I ignore it; it just sits in the back of my mind as something Awful and without some kind of reconciliatory gesture from him, inspired BY HIM, I don't think I'll ever forget it even while I do eventually move past it. But the path feels very hard indeed.

And no, Mr. Lucky, absolutely no way do I want to spend 2008 in the quagmire of agony that I spent 2007. I am determinde to do whatever it takes and this evening one small step in that direction is cleaning my apartment which I allowed to become a wreck as it reflected my inner state of chaos. No more. I may have to do something drastic and I feel the impulse to: to move away as I feel like I need a complete break to shake my mind out of this.

But again, another epic post! I am sorry .

January 5, 2008

I agree with what people are *saying* but it's easy to *say* and a whole different game to *do*. I'm not talking about still trying; I'm not still trying: I'm not contacting him nor do I intend to. I'm also weaning myself away from expecting to hear from him any time soon if ever. And I'm not at all not going out and living my life. That's exactly what I mean: since when does going out on dozens of dates constitute really LIVING? There's a part of me that finds dating fun, sure, but another part that finds it a pretty frivolous pursuit. Why not spend my time building up my interests, developing friendships, etc.?

And therein is what I'm really asking about. When I feel truest to how I feel and what I want, I have to acknowledge that I am still very much in love with him. That is not me trying to get back with him; it is nothing less than a fact of ME. I am GreenCove, and I love ____. There were so many things I started with him that I want to continue: he introduced me to skiing and I loved it and I want to continue it and have been doing so, but doing so puts me in this strange kind of spiritual "dialogue" with him (with my memories of him). On a ski trip last week I rode lifts alone and thought about things and then as I skied I felt like I was skiing myself into the future, physically reconciling emotional things, if that makes sense. He introduced me to the concept of "following rules" and what that entails and he had certain interests that I was curious about and we planned one day to do a particular joint venture that brought our common and uncommon interests together. I loved the idea and I still want to do it, but have to do it without him. Pursuing these interests again puts me in this strange spiritual dialogue with him.

And strangely, in those moments of being in this dialogue, I feel most myself, most true to myself and how I truly feel deep down. Maybe because I have the feeling of completing what was started and thus completing the growing I was doing with his presence in my life as a catalyst. He really inspired me in a lot of ways and here's where it's painful: the inspiration turned me on to him and I'd feel these bursts of love that I'd express to him and now that he's gone, as I continue to be inspired by him and carry out certain plans and projects that I'd conceived with him or while with him, the acting on the inspiration ignites those turned on, love feelings and so even as I'm trying to move AWAY I feel myself moving TOWARD. Even while, paradoxically, time is doing its work to pull us AWAY: we are no longer in each other's lives. Time is doing the letting go for me since my jubilation at, say, getting ever better as a skier puts me in the PRESENT even as while I'm skiing I'm in this kind of deep soulful "communication" with the past, with my love, with memories.

So, assuming any of this made sense to anyone, this is the crux of what I mean. I'll not say more so as not to further garble what I've said.
Any thoughts? I appreciate everything people have said so far very much.

I'd say it would be a mistake to move to HIS home city, then. That internal dialogue with him will continue there, and you'll likely stay stuck in communicating with the past and your memories, don't you think? Particularly since he turned you on to that city? Acting on that inspiration is you moving toward him, to some degree, isn't it?

His family is there, won't you wonder if you'll run into them, or him when he's home from the holidays?

January 5, 2008

What do I do with the fact that I don't want transient relationships to carry me one by one forward in my life? I want ONE person, who will remain with me for the rest of my life, who will annoy the crap out of me even while he turns me on spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, physically, and who I learn from unendingly so that even when things are in a rut I can feel that staying in this crucible that marriage can be, that teaches its constituents how truly to love AS EQUALS, is far more enriching overall than any venture over to the "greener grass," the "something new and better" ever could be?

I don't really understand your first question - your desire just is. It's there. Nothing to be done about it.

And you're not the only person who wants ONE person for all the reasons you state (very eloquently, by the way - are you a writer?).

The thing is, people tend to move through a number of 'transient' relationships before they find the one that sticks. I wish I could remember the title right now, but I got some breakup book awhile back that talked about relationships as developmental learning processes, and that until various developmental needs of ours are met, we won't settle/find the right partner for us (the idea being that when a particular developmental need is met with a given partner, one or the other will end the relationship). I know, I know, in your relationship you would have gladly stayed...but now you need to make peace with the fact that that relationship has turned out to be transient.

Would it help to take a step back and reframe what you are going through as "what can greencove learn from this heart-wrenching situation, to make her even more ready for the next, and maybe right, relationship?"

Maybe it's too early to make that shift, I don't know. But something needs to shift here. I know you said you want to tough it out without a counselor/therapist in 2008... I am wondering whether you have ever seen a cognitive behavioral therapy type person? Where they could help you with specific coping mechanisms when you find yourself dwelling on him too much, or romanticizing him, or whatever thing you are doing that might be setting you back in your healing? I haven't done CBT myself but maybe it would be helpful if you've been doing that kind of therapy where you talk through your childhood to figure out where your issues really come from. While the latter approach helped me, sometimes it sends other people in circles.

Also, there's a phenomenon called "catastrophizing" that you may be doing - making this very real pain and disappointment even bigger than it should be: it has taken over your entire life for a much longer period than you want or may be healthy. I am not trying to minimize it at all, or suggest that you should be 'over him' by now... but if you don't sense any noticeable improvement over the last year, it may be some cause for concern. Even though it took me 1.5-2 years to get over each of my big heartbreaks, by the one year mark I had made significant strides, including having at least some interest in meeting someone new (even if I cried after each bad first date).

January 5, 2008

...there was also the "him-ness" of him that I loved and that had nothing to do with how he served me or my life or my future hopes.

Yes, exactly! That is part of this whole deal. As long as we feel we're "learning and becoming", we are wholeheartedly willing and able and desiring to put up with every one of their 'adorable' dysfunctions and 'perfectly understandable' bad behaviour. That is part of it, exactly.

...but I think that was his problematic perception... I was CONSTANTLY soliciting him to be a PARTNER

You are aware, are you not, how arrogant it sounds to judge ANYone else's perception as "problematic"? -- that is just your perception of their perception, and it very well could be that YOURS is the faulty one!

"Constantly soliciting" is synonymous with "nagging" in the real world of relationships. If you go deeper with your nagging, was it motivated by YOUR feeling that you were not "becoming" fast enough for YOUR schedule?

I know it's more comforting to say that the level and speed of both your "soul progression" (let's call it that for a moment) was a mutual goal -- but that is obviously a misguided perception on your part. Obvious, because he chose to get out of the relationship. Possibly you were nagging him to heights that he had no desire to achieve.

What do I do with the fact that ... I want ONE person, who will remain with me for the rest of my life, who will annoy the crap out of me even while he turns me on spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, physically, and who I learn from unendingly

What to do is really analyze the belief that has birthed this desire. I think the last ONE person who would fit that bill is Jesus Christ, himself. And I really don't intend to sound mean about that. It's just that what you are seeking from ONE person is a helluva cross (sorry - couldn't resist

) to be asking any ONE person to carry. It isn't realistic or reasonable to expect all of that from ONE human being...just so you can have a lifetime of what YOU WANT!

And no ONE person (or group) is responsible in any way, shape or form, for your "soul progression" -- that is ALL ON YOU, to do when and how and if.

Neither can you "solicit" that someone else undertake 'soul progression work', and then try to force it when they balk.

I didn't and don't NEED my ex to make my happiness and I don't think I ever, implicitly or explicitly, asked him to (though perhaps he might disagree; I can't know). He was a BONUS. I know there will be "nexts" ... but I WANTED him. Paradoxically, even knowing that I don't NEED him

Sorry, GC, but that you have created an on-going (fantasy) relationship to "stay in" does clearly indicate a NEED. It's just more a spiritual-emotional need than a physical one. The truth is, the former is far more difficult to deal with...and maintain a semblance of sanity while doing so

.

My take is that you derive a lot of your happiness through your process of becoming -- I am the same, when it comes to that. So, in a roundabout way, because you are putting so much stock in this physical being as related to your "becoming", you did develop a NEED (dependence) on him for a large chunk of your overall happiness.

I TOTALLY get that his physical being-ness, his "him-ness" as you say, was a pure and delightful bonus! I know the glow of just watching him in his brattiest behaviour and baddest moods. I totally get that.

The deal is, though: This delightful past experience has been withdrawn from your future experiences. Every emotional, physical, mental and spiritual guide would advise that it is seriously time to stop pining for what was.

It is about loss and grieving. This is a soul's dream that dies hard. It is about coming out from under your veil of illusion.

I'd really encourage you to take concrete steps rather than just leaving your healing up to time. If there are "holistic (spiritual) psychotherapists" practicing in your area, I'd suggest that -- they're trained to deal with the full spectrum of emotions plus explore and restore the non-physical (energetic) body.

...I feel this disbelief that he could just purge me from his life in the way he did. ... it just sits in the back of my mind as something Awful

(((hugs))) Yeah. It does that!!! The thing is, we do not know what was driving him, emotionally and spiritually -- the words he used to decord from you were not about you at all, they were all about his life journey and soul purpose. To make them all about you just ends up being narcissistic.

I know there's little comfort here, BUT it is all the comfort that seems likely you will ever get so...be comforted as best you can, and every day actively grow that comfort . That is what you owe to your Self and your Soul.

Even with a conciliatory gesture from him, you're not going to forget your experience with him. Don't make that (a "self-inspired" sign from him) the excuse you use to not take active healing steps.

Namaste!

January 5, 2008

I would like to retract my previous comments and extend a huge Bravo! to Ronni_W for the above. Wow, that was all very well said.

GC, I know you asked me what makes me think your BF was nothing special. I'm not sure it's important for anyone else to tell you what it was; you need to cultivate a more even-handed assessment of him for yourself. (Get him off that damn pedastal, girl!)

All that to say, the best thing someone told ME about one of my exes who I couldn't find anything wrong with was that he handled the bad times (ie the end) badly. And even if every other quality about that particular ex was wonderful, beautiful, inspiring, even perfect, his flaw was that he handled the end like a child and was extremely hurtful in his withdrawal and refusal to talk. If the real mark of a man is how he handles a crisis, my guy failed miserably on that front. That insight from my friend was remarkably helpful to my healing.

January 5, 2008

I would like to retract my previous comments and extend a huge Bravo! to Ronni_W for the above. Wow, that was all very well said.

Thanks Sunshinegirl. I'm just going on my own experience of being in what sounds like a similar situation of unending, obsessive, insanity-inducing, circular, idiotic, comforting, exciting, growth-inspiring thought patterns and imaginary conversations. Did I mention feeling obsessive and insane?

I was in that nightmare for the better part of 5 years! Good part is that I'm not dead...so it must have made me stronger(???)

The sad part is that it doesn't matter how dysfunctional, childish, immature, manipulative or otherwise flawed the "real" person is...conscious knowing of all of that doesn't do a whit to knock them off that pedestal. In fact, it kinda just makes them MORE special -- didn't I mention the insanity?

Of course, I'm only talking about MY OWN "insanity" -- I just felt all insane and out-of-control and like nothing would ever make sense again.

And double of course, that I hope GC won't have to endure 5 years of it -- I think that was just a really stupid choice that I made for myself, about that time-frame.

January 6, 2008

I'd say it would be a mistake to move to HIS home city, then. That internal dialogue with him will continue there, and you'll likely stay stuck in communicating with the past and your memories, don't you think? Particularly since he turned you on to that city? Acting on that inspiration is you moving toward him, to some degree, isn't it?

His family is there, won't you wonder if you'll run into them, or him when he's home from the holidays?

Hi NJ--

Yes to all. That's why I'm trying to proceed with caution. If I were to go through with it and all the effort that will involve, only to find myself all the way out there feeling desperately disappointed because my motivations circled all around HIM though I'd managed to convince myself otherwise, that would suck. It would throw me into a rut that I couldn't easily get out of: the rut I've been in now is all in my mind; the rut I'd be in were I to move there and realize my true motivations would be geographical, financial, "opportunistical," in addition to emotional.

Funny, last night I was out on a date (nothing there), and as we were in a cozy, quiet room with a fireplace (in a bar/restaurant), we ended up in conversation with two women on the couch next to us, who were visiting NYC from my ex's homecity. We talked about some places there that I know well, and how beautiful the city is, and when I mentioned that I was thinking of moving there, the women said that the job market is really hot there right now and they just love living there, etc. We exchanged contact info. The whole conversation, with the possibility of moving there out on the table, really felt RIGHT. LIke when you feel that whole series of internal "clicks" where everything is lining up beautifully.

The thing is, I know partly I'm drawn to the city because of all those years of long distance and me holding him and his location in my mind as part of my every day; it practically FELT like I was living there, without the benefits of living there, which created a lot of longing and frustration for me. I associate him with his homecity, certainly, and the thing is that he no longer lives there and I'd be surprised if he moved back any time soon. He's building his life elsewhere and I'm not a part of that. So I fear that the part of me that's motivated to move there (again, this is only part--the city is truly amazing and has a lot of the lifestyle things I really value) as a way of "resolving" the longings created by our long period of long distance, will make me feel very empty and even more "left behind" than I'm feeling now.

My "plan" is to book a visit there in the next month or two, to see if I can better resolve these questions by actually standing in the city's midst, visiting the familiar places I came to know with my ex and checking out new aspects of the city, and seeing how I feel--if that "click" feeling is there or if I just am overcome with longing (e.g. if everywhere I go I find myself fervently hoping that I'll see his parents or his sister). If there is too much of the latter, or if I get off at the airport and start to cry, overcome with nostalgia, then the move will be a definite no-go. It would then truly submerge me once and for all in a dead relationship and nothing good can come of that. Especially not at this time in my life--31, unattached, ready to build a life and family.

I just don't know.

January 6, 2008

You are aware, are you not, how arrogant it sounds to judge ANYone else's perception as "problematic"? -- that is just your perception of their perception, and it very well could be that YOURS is the faulty one!

I don't think it's arrogant in this case: it was one time I was actually trying to shift some of the responsibility for things that went wrong onto him rather than blame myself all the time. Yes, it is true that when a decision needed to be made about something that affected our relationship, the first thing I would do is ask him what his thoughts and feelings were about it. I would say, "here's the problem; what do you think?" And he would avoid the discussion. I dealt with this in part by holding off on making decisions so as not to rock the boat, but then I'd have to do something. I'd proceed, and then I'd feel his resentment. I'd say "what's wrong," and he'd accuse me of taking over and doing what I wanted. He felt he held no sway over me, and after years--and especially all of 2007--of blaming myself, I have finally allowed myself to conclude that that really was HIS problem. Hence "problematic perception."

"Constantly soliciting" is synonymous with "nagging" in the real world of relationships. If you go deeper with your nagging, was it motivated by YOUR feeling that you were not "becoming" fast enough for YOUR schedule?

I know it's more comforting to say that the level and speed of both your "soul progression" (let's call it that for a moment) was a mutual goal -- but that is obviously a misguided perception on your part. Obvious, because he chose to get out of the relationship. Possibly you were nagging him to heights that he had no desire to achieve.

Perhaps. But in my view--and what's so sad--is that all I ever asked is for him to talk with me in concrete terms about the future of the relationship. I blame myself for not being clear in communicating what I wanted and becoming, yes, a downright nag as a result of my frustration and hurt. I mishandled how to handle someone who shuts you out all the time. For me, it wasn't really about reaching some height of soul progression, but about communicating in such a way that we could actually make real plans together and in the absence of that, at least communicating about how we're not communicating well. He obviously had notions about the relationship and how he wanted it to be that he never shared with me. 2.5 weeks before he actually broke up with me, he broke up with me and we reconciled a few days later. I was too afraid at that point to rock the boat so I didn't bring it up, but in that 2.5 weeks he never once said anything about what led him to the brink and what changes he needed to see from me to make him feel good in the relationship.

How DO you handle someone who won't tell you what he's thinking? I hated that I had become a Nag. I really did.

What to do is really analyze the belief that has birthed this desire. I think the last ONE person who would fit that bill is Jesus Christ, himself. And I really don't intend to sound mean about that. It's just that what you are seeking from ONE person is a helluva cross (sorry - couldn't resist ) to be asking any ONE person to carry. It isn't realistic or reasonable to expect all of that from ONE human being...just so you can have a lifetime of what YOU WANT!
And no ONE person (or group) is responsible in any way, shape or form, for your "soul progression" -- that is ALL ON YOU, to do when and how and if.
Neither can you "solicit" that someone else undertake 'soul progression work', and then try to force it when they balk.

Again, this is the original reason I started this thread. Whether it's really about "values," I don't know. No way was I saying I think anyone but me is responsible for my "soul progression." I was talking about one of the facets of a life-long partnership. Isn't learning together one of the motivations for staying together? Surely it isn't unrealistic to hope to meet someone with whom I can build a relationship that will last a lifetime, no? If not learning and growning together, and being inspired by and excited about each other in ever new ways, why stay with one person ever? I'm not looking for Jesus Christ; I'm looking for messy, but fulfilling love with another mortal human being, that withstands the blindnesses and pettinesses of being human and fallible to last until the day one of us dies. People HAVE found it; I don't think I'm talking about some sort of fantasized "Perfect" relationship here. I'd not have ended my relationship with my ex, despite all the frustrations, because I KNOW that frustrations will exist in any relationship no matter what and if I love this person, I figured, I may as well learn to work with the frustrations. I just didn't get a chance to finish my learning so that, for example, I could deal more effectively with the fact that he doesn't like to talk about feelings.

As to the rest of what you said, I really appreciate it and I'm going to think more about all of it. But who's saying I'm not taking active steps? When I come to Loveshack, it's to give voice to that nucleus of grief and regret and confusion that still resides in me. But that nucleus doesn't comprise me entirely, or all my actions or thoughts. I've been very proactive about moving forward, but now comes the hardest part yet and I'm reaching out because I'm unsure how to proceed. Hardest part because: now that a year of total non-effort to reconcile on his part has passed, I HAVE to truly face the possibility that this is truly IT and there's no going back; we have no connection and quite possibly will never have it again. Also because: now I'm not just having to adjust to the loss in the short term (meeting new people, trying new pursuits, etc.), I have to make long-term decisions about how I'm going to live my life and those decisions no longer can take him into account, the way all my long-term notions and thoughts have for the past 5 years.

I have to find that capacity in me to force a true BREAK with him, INTERNALLY, and I know it's not as simple as flipping off a switch, or reaching into my brain and ripping out a bleeding, hardened node labeled "Attachment to ____." I'm no longer seeking anything from him--though as I said I still have that nagging wish that I will hear from him; it would mean a lot, now or years from now. I know myself too well to know that I can't ever just not care about anyone I've ever loved deeply. I just don't know how to do it.

January 6, 2008

Funny, last night I was out on a date (nothing there), and as we were in a cozy, quiet room with a fireplace (in a bar/restaurant), we ended up in conversation with two women on the couch next to us, who were visiting NYC from my ex's homecity. We talked about some places there that I know well, and how beautiful the city is, and when I mentioned that I was thinking of moving there, the women said that the job market is really hot there right now and they just love living there, etc. We exchanged contact info.

I feel sorry for your date!

January 6, 2008

I feel sorry for your date!

No, no--it wasn't like it sounds! My date, whom I know through a group I'm in and whose close friend set us up, has a penchant for striking up a conversation with absolutely everyone. Sure enough, he introduced himself, and me, to everyone in our area of couches. When these women mentioned where they were from, ALL of us started talking about that part of the country as my date had lived there himself for several years. All I said about my ex was, in response to one of the women questioning how I know the city so well: "I used to date someone from there."

Then my date and I talked among the two of us and we were talking about our New year's resolutions. I said that one of mine is to find a new job and possibly move from NYC. At this point the two women rejoined our conversation; I was giving the names of some cities I was considering and I gave the name of their (and my ex's) city. One of the women then said, we should exchange contact info. So we did.

All that was too much to explain earlier; I realized how it could sound but that's one of the problems with an anonymous internet message board!

January 6, 2008

GC, I know you asked me what makes me think your BF was nothing special. I'm not sure it's important for anyone else to tell you what it was; you need to cultivate a more even-handed assessment of him for yourself. (Get him off that damn pedastal, girl!)

Thanks, and true. But still: since several people have said to me that he doesn't sound like such a great guy, I think it would be helpful for me to know what fuels that perception in others. I guess it fits in with the notion of a "great guy." I mean, I think I'm a worthy catch but I'm sure were my ex to describe to others some of my tendencies, I wouldn't come off as anything special, either. So what does it take to be a "great person" and still be...a person and not, to borrow from Ronni_W's post, Jesus Christ? Since only he is capable of unending patience, forgiveness, and overall beneficence. So if you would, please do tell me what gives you that perception!

All that to say, the best thing someone told ME about one of my exes who I couldn't find anything wrong with was that he handled the bad times (ie the end) badly. And even if every other quality about that particular ex was wonderful, beautiful, inspiring, even perfect, his flaw was that he handled the end like a child and was extremely hurtful in his withdrawal and refusal to talk. If the real mark of a man is how he handles a crisis, my guy failed miserably on that front. That insight from my friend was remarkably helpful to my healing.

This is fantastic. Thank you.

January 6, 2008

GC, I have a new understanding of what you meant by "problematic perception" - thanks for taking the time, with that.

I'm getting that he defended HIS lack of ability to communicate and offer input by blaming you for whatever outcome he didn't like. I'd call it his dysfunctional 'coping' skills but, no matter how it's labeled, it definitely is a problem when people do that

Other parts of your earlier posts, I've obviously also misinterpreted -- please just ignore everything I've written that does not apply.

I'm especially glad that I got the part about you not taking active steps wrong! -- I'm glad you are doing that, and wish you much strength and Guidance through your recovery and healing.

How DO you handle someone who won't tell you what he's thinking? I hated that I had become a Nag. I really did.

These days, I just don't accept comments after the fact if someone wasn't sufficiently interested to provide their input before the fact. I respond something like, "Yeah, I could have gone that way...why didn't you say something?" or "Darn, I wish you'd have said something...that would have been so much easier/better!" -- My goal is to give the responsibility back to the person with whom it truly belongs (could be anyone...my mom, co-worker, b/f, etc.)

BEFORE I learned about setting healthy boundaries, I was the QUEEN of Nags

January 6, 2008

So what do you do when all the advice columns seemingly invalidate feeling a deep attachment and make you feel like the only attitude to have is "out with the old, in with the new," and feed you this idea that the next relationship will be better? I don't believe that things just get better and better in life; if that were true, then why stick with anyone or anything?

It sounds more like you are looking for reasons to widow yourself to an already dead relationship. So if “out with old, in with the new” doesn’t seem like practical advice ... than what’s the alternative?

It can get pretty darn lonely being a loyal, devoted partner to the ghost of a lover who’s already left you. Sure, the bigger the hurt the longer it takes to heal. But life CAN and DOES get better ... however, that is solely dependant on motivation and attitude.

January 6, 2008

I was in that nightmare for the better part of 5 years! Good part is that I'm not dead...so it must have made me stronger(???)

The sad part is that it doesn't matter how dysfunctional, childish, immature, manipulative or otherwise flawed the "real" person is...conscious knowing of all of that doesn't do a whit to knock them off that pedestal. In fact, it kinda just makes them MORE special -- didn't I mention the insanity?

Of course, I'm only talking about MY OWN "insanity" -- I just felt all insane and out-of-control and like nothing would ever make sense again.

And double of course, that I hope GC won't have to endure 5 years of it -- I think that was just a really stupid choice that I made for myself, about that time-frame.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ronni. It sounds like you really speak from experience! 5 years? What do you think kept you in that cycle for so long? I'm not sure how old you are, but 5 years is a long time! Didn't the flow of life do anything to pull you out of that bad place? I mean, I definitely don't think I'll still feel so low a year from now. By another year from then (2010), I expect that all this will be very much in the past. HOWEVER, as a fellow very psychologically minded person, you know how there are residual things from things that happen to us that affect us in ways we only realize years later. It's that that frightens me.

I mean, here I sit, and I can FEEL, like a shard of glass lodged in my heart, the horror that just like THAT someone can willfully end a relationship and exit your life. It makes me question what you can expect from other people, and how much you can trust them. I mean, yes, my ex was not communicative about things he felt were wrong with our relationship, but even so given how good-hearted he is and given he is well raised and has solid values, I trusted that if he was thinking of ending our relationship, before he carried it out he'd let me know he'd reached breaking point and would tell me what he wanted to see changed. Open up a dialogue, in other words.

By cutting out as he did, it was like so many other times, when he'd get angry with me on the phone during our long distance and hang up on me. It's plain as day that he ended it and it's over, and yet the lack of communication before, during, and after just leaves me reeling, and wondering, and so very confused. Why, after being with me for all that time, did he never come to trust me enough to communicate what he was feeling about our relationship and give us the chance, TOGETHER, to work out a better solution?

The lack of communication and cold, clean break leaves me with an inner chilliness that I just can't shake. It's that chilliness, that feeling of having witnessed a Horror, that I fear is going to linger long after I have truly built up a whole new life for myself, and affect my ability to trust again in a love relationship.

I'm curious to know your thoughts and I'd love to hear more about what you experienced, why you felt it stuck with you and what you think finally enabled you to move past it (and what makes you certain you have, indeed, moved past it).

January 6, 2008

5 years? What do you think kept you in that cycle for so long? I'm not sure how old you are, but 5 years is a long time! Didn't the flow of life do anything to pull you out of that bad place?

Hindsight is a great thing -- a big part of what kept me in the cycle is that I was addicted to all of it, pure and simple. Another part is what you're experiencing now -- making that internal break is just so goshdarned difficult. Another part was my deep desire for the growth and learning, but add to that my deeper fear that I'd lose future opportunities for growth and learning (and naturally my addiction didn't help none with any of it...unending cycle chasing another freakin' cycle, in my case.)

Like you, it didn't totally shut-down my ability to carry on. The worst of it was probably the first 2 years. I changed careers, got into the most *perfect* relationship, and generally did what I had to do be continue "becoming" . I kind of just look at the 5 years as something that was needed for some aspect of my being.

I was fortunate in that, 3.5 years later, I did receive that out-of-the-blue contact from him that you would dearly like to receive -- so, I do know what that would mean for you.

During all of it, hearing from him didn't feel necessary or even desirable. But I am grateful that it happened.

I was 37 when it started (in this lifetime.) I've given up on there being an nice and neat "ending" -- it's always just gonna be whatever it is at any given point in time (and space.)

January 6, 2008

I mean, here I sit, and I can FEEL, like a shard of glass lodged in my heart, the horror that just like THAT someone can willfully end a relationship and exit your life. It makes me question what you can expect from other people, and how much you can trust them. I mean, yes, my ex was not communicative about things he felt were wrong with our relationship, but even so given how good-hearted he is and given he is well raised and has solid values, I trusted that if he was thinking of ending our relationship, before he carried it out he'd let me know he'd reached breaking point and would tell me what he wanted to see changed. Open up a dialogue, in other words.

People can and do walk away just like all the time, without trying to work on things, without telling you they've reached a breaking point, without putting you and the well-being of the relationship first - they put themselves and what they want first. That's why I made a reference to the infidelity forum in one of your other threads - it happens all the time, not just to YOU, and not because YOU (or anyone else who has been dumped or cheated on) drove him to do it. It happens, that is exactly what people do - people who are not "in it to win it", so to speak, but who prefer to avoid conflict and who prefer avoiding the hard work it takes to maintain a solid, honest, loving relationship.

This was your first serious relationship, so it seems unthinkable to you. All you believed in about relationships and how they are supposed to be has been thrown into doubt, and your illusions were ripped away.

Now you have to recalibrate your beliefs and move on with the understanding that you need to pay attention to the red flags along the way - like your ex being non communicative. You thought you could overcome that, and you couldn't. People fundamentally are who they are, and if he's a doorknob when it comes to communicating, you can't work through things no matter how much YOU try to do enough communicating for the both of you. If he NEVER opened up a dialogue throughout your 5 years together, why did you continue expecting him to???

You can move on, and you can trust that a guy will talk to you about the relationship, but it has to be the kind of guy who is actually capable of communication in the first place. Find one of those guys and you'll be fine.

January 6, 2008

...just leaves me reeling, and wondering, and so very confused. Why, after being with me for all that time, did he never come to trust me enough

Thought a 2nd post might make things easier to read. Again, PLEASE IGNORE what doesn't apply.

I see his inability to communicate as maladaptive on HIS part. It's not that he didn't trust YOU...he would have treated any long-term partner exactly the same way (because) I also think such non-communication is about a lack of trust in the SELF who can't communicate their inner truths, needs and desires. (Thinking about my mom, when I say that.)

Don't know how to put this: Let's call him 'Bob' and see if I can do it...

Bob's inner world is all about Bob. The maladaptive voice says stuff like, "Bob can't trust. Bob lacks trust. Bob is distrusting of others. Bob is afraid to speak out on important issues. Bob won't speak out then Bob can't be blamed for negative outcomes."

See how it doesn't say "GC" in there? But you're trying to make sense of Bob's inner world by putting your name in a place where it simply does not belong. It really isn't that Bob said, "GC is untrustworthy" -- it's just that Bob didn't know how to deal with his own stuff in an effective, productive way that would have better served himself (and, as a secondary, the relationship.)

(I'd say that is one of the 'learnings' you had to offer him. Like my mom, though, there is huge fear about getting too close to their own inner stuff...they will run very fast even from positive experiences rather than get anywhere close to their 'shadows'.)

...why you felt it stuck with you and what you think finally enabled you to move past it (and what makes you certain you have, indeed, moved past it).

Well, it was and remains the most important experience of my 47 years! I really can't imagine anything that might top it...though I'm looking forward to that (and of course, never imagined anything like it, before it arrived.)

I am "past it" in the sense that I don't need the imaginary cons anymore, and I can go weeks and months without thinking about him. But I love and appreciate him every day -- that may make sense to you, and not many others. I've learned to accept, enjoy and appreciate the contradictions, too.

The final thing that turned it around was an energetic decording -- I think it was my 3rd attempt. I could write more about that, if you're interested.

But I'd done cognitive therapy, past life journeys, guided visualizations, Akashic Record readings, studied different spiritual traditions, and God probably can't even remember what else. It was just a seriously tough sled for me -- with many wonderful outcomes (I'm definitely not complaining.)

Edited January 6, 2008 by Ronni_W
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