marlena Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Well then they are wrong. Life is hard enough, without all these circular arguments, and finger pointing. Does it really matter who is to blame? Five children are without their mother. __________________ Amen to that!! Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 It does and there is no revenge sweeter than living well. I hope you all understand that I was not serious when I wrote that comment... I read it as ironic, but it seems not everone did. I suppose that's what the emoticons are for, since not everyone can read tone - and not everyone reads the full thread to get the context of a poster's stance on a matter! Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 That is merely ONE POSSIBLE EXPLANATION. The OP said: On this evidence: they "seemed to have a great relationship" BW "was not even aware of his plans to leave" BW was "confused and hurt" after his leaving 3 months ago, and "not knowing what she had done to incur his wrath" Plus: BW "pulled her car behind his" outside OW's apartment... I reckon a more plausible explanation is that BW didn't KNOW about the A, was shocked at the abrupt end to the M and the "unexplained" nastiness of her xH, and went to where he'd find her to commit suicide. IOW, it was the LEAVING rather than the A that triggered the suicide. Had he left, and then started a R with the woman, the response would likely have been the same - she'd have simply drawn up behind his car outside the GF's apartment. Of course we'll never know. But in speculating, I think it's more honest to frame our opinions as OPINIONS and not to claim they're FACT. I agree.. that was exactly my point... Your second point is right on! Link to post Share on other sites
marlena Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I read it as ironic, but it seems not everone did. I suppose that's what the emoticons are for, since not everyone can read tone - and not everyone reads the full thread to get the context of a poster's stance on a matter! Sorry, if I misread, I apologize. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I reckon a more plausible explanation is that BW didn't KNOW about the A, was shocked at the abrupt end to the M and the "unexplained" nastiness of her xH, and went to where he'd find her to commit suicide. IOW, it was the LEAVING rather than the A that triggered the suicide. Had he left, and then started a R with the woman, the response would likely have been the same - she'd have simply drawn up behind his car outside the GF's apartment. Of course we'll never know. But in speculating, I think it's more honest to frame our opinions as OPINIONS and not to claim they're FACT. Based on my reading of this tragedy, I would say that it was the rejection of her that was the final blow. If the affair had happened and he had asked for forgiveness, then it is possible that she would have felt hope. If he had left with no affair but simply felt that he was "out of love," then she could have had hope for reconciliation. She had lived her life under the assumption that the marriage was good. Being that this rejection came at the same time she was losing her mother, she must have fallen apart. His lack of timing and compassion says volumes about him and his commitment to his family. Even if he had the affair and no longer loved his wife, his timing was atrocious. He not only devastated the life (and then death) of his wife, he destroyed the future of his children. They now have many issues that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Well then they are wrong. Life is hard enough, without all these circular arguments, and finger pointing. Does it really matter who is to blame? Five children are without their mother. I agree with this post. However, is is clear that the wife intended to lay blame, just based on the facts as reported. One of the forces driving her was a desire to leave a message for her husband, since she took pains that he be the one to find her. The message becomes even more clear when you ask, why did she attach the hose to his tailpipe rather than to that of her own car? Because she wanted him to feel responsible for her death. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with this post. However, is is clear that the wife intended to lay blame, just based on the facts as reported. One of the forces driving her was a desire to leave a message for her husband, since she took pains that he be the one to find her. The message becomes even more clear when you ask, why did she attach the hose to his tailpipe rather than to that of her own car? Because she wanted him to feel responsible for her death. Perhaps the hose was not long enough to reach all the way back to her exhaust? Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with this post. However, is is clear that the wife intended to lay blame, just based on the facts as reported. One of the forces driving her was a desire to leave a message for her husband, since she took pains that he be the one to find her. The message becomes even more clear when you ask, why did she attach the hose to his tailpipe rather than to that of her own car? Because she wanted him to feel responsible for her death. Ha-hem... I read HER tailpipe... if she would have attached it to HIS tailpipe...she would still be alive... Link to post Share on other sites
jj2007 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 This morning she drove to the OW's apartment where her husband was, pulled her car behind his, attached a flex hose to her tailpipe with a pipeclamp. She pulled the hose through the back window of her van and placed a clear garbage bag over her head with the hose inside and started the car. They found her when he went out to head to work. She attached the hose to her tailpipe. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Perhaps the hose was not long enough to reach all the way back to her exhaust? Ah. Perhaps. That would be the simplest explanation. I wouldn't have made a good police detective. But, still, she herself couldn't have failed to notice the symbolism and/or irony while attaching the hose. It would have been palpable. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 She attached the hose to her tailpipe. Oops. Sorry. Carry on. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Ah. Perhaps. That would be the simplest explanation. I wouldn't have made a good police detective. But, still, she herself couldn't have failed to notice the symbolism and/or irony while attaching the hose. It would have been palpable. Well that was not the case ...... but she was smart enough to get a long enough hose and likely was sure to fill her tank. Better for the H to find her than the kids. I cannot imagine this OW playing step mommy to the kids after this ordeal. Link to post Share on other sites
JackJack Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I simply do not know what to say. I'm pretty speechless. Its an awful tradgedy in deed. Those poor kids. And whats even sadder, it wont stop alot MM or MW from cheating either. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Ha-hem... I read HER tailpipe... if she would have attached it to HIS tailpipe...she would still be alive... Well, clearly my misreading says more about me than about the wife. But I did assume she started his car first, in my completely fictional scenario. I may be a nut but I'm not that mechanically dense. Sorry again. Link to post Share on other sites
jj2007 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 One of the forces driving her was a desire to leave a message for her husband, since she took pains that he be the one to find her. she wanted him to feel responsible for her death. I do agree with this. I also think that she was more concerned about the pain she was going through than the pain of her own children. I feel so sorry for those kids. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I do agree with this. I also think that she was more concerned about the pain she was going through than the pain of her own children. I feel so sorry for those kids. Thing is... when you're in such a suicidal state, you don't think of anything... or anyone... the pain is just overwhelming. You have no more conscience.. no more moral... When I was 'sick' I knew my children would be devastated... but I had 'no feelings' per se... plus I thought they'd be much better without me being such a 'weak wreck'... When you're in such pain... nothing matters anymore... Link to post Share on other sites
TogetherForever Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I haven't been around/posting for a while & coming back & reading this thread - well - it's just really sad all the way around. My prayers go out to every single person involved!!! TF Link to post Share on other sites
JackJack Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Thing is... when you're in such a suicidal state, you don't think of anything... or anyone... the pain is just overwhelming. You have no more conscience.. no more moral... When I was 'sick' I knew my children would be devastated... but I had 'no feelings' per se... plus I thought they'd be much better without me being such a 'weak wreck'... When you're in such pain... nothing matters anymore... I agree with this. A close friend of mine committed suicide when we were in high school. I had a hard time with it and could not figure out WHY he would do that or what he was thinking. I had a counselor help me deal with things then. He told me when someone is in a suicidal state they are not thinking clearly about anything at all. He said most people like that, are not in the right frame of mind at that moment. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with this. A close friend of mine committed suicide when we were in high school. I had a hard time with it and could not figure out WHY he would do that or what he was thinking. I had a counselor help me deal with things then. He told me when someone is in a suicidal state they are not thinking clearly about anything at all. He said most people like that, are not in the right frame of mind at that moment. Exactly... I know exactly how they feel, cause I've been there.. It's a really painful period of my life... it's no party... In fact, my daughter's best friend committed suicide when he was in high school.. (many years ago) and she was saying how 'blank' he was..no feelings.. nothing.. life was over for him.. he could not see how he could get out of this deep depression... I know 6 people who committed suicide... One missed 3 times... (the first time he shot himself in the face).. he now looks like a monster... Link to post Share on other sites
JackJack Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Sorry you went through a period like that Lizzie. I can only imagine how it must have felt for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Sorry you went through a period like that Lizzie. I can only imagine how it must have felt for you. Thanks... JJ.. I am now a much stronger person... Link to post Share on other sites
michelangelo Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 How sad. I can relate to your poor friend though. I was utterly devastated when I found out my wife was cheating and had even cheated when we were engaged. I spiralled into a deep depression that was so crushing, I could barely function. This went on for a year. I decided i was either going to jump off a cliff or find a way out of it. I eventually drove to the mountains and was literally flipping a mental coin in my head whether to step off or not. The only thing that stopped me was thoughts of my children and what this would do to them. I also finally realized that the message of pain i wanted to send to my cheating wife would not be received, she'd already found it ok with her that I hurt from her activities. As i stepped farther away from that ledge in time and space, I got angry and realized I'd invested too much in reacting to the crap she did to us. I didn't want her to have the satisfaction of thinking she was justified for doing what she did because I was suicidally depressed. I snapped out of it. But I know a lot of people do not and this poor friend of yours did not cope well with her world being shattered. I was one coin flip away from her fate. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 His lack of timing and compassion says volumes about him and his commitment to his family. Even if he had the affair and no longer loved his wife, his timing was atrocious. James I'm sure you've read enough posts here on these boards alone to know there's NEVER a good time to leave - MMs use that all the time to their OW... "just until the kids finish school... college... their grandchildren finish college..." Her mother's impending loss may have been long in coming, or a chronic thing with still years to drag on - this we don't know. It may itself have contributed to the W's withdrawal from the M which led the MM to seek solace in the arms of the OW - this we don't know. His timing may have been because HE was at the end of his fuse, and had to leave then or lose it totally - this we don't know. Your ASSUMPTIONS about his timing and alleged lack of compassion say volumes about your reading of the situation. Others, from other perspectives, read it differently. He not only devastated the life (and then death) of his wife, he destroyed the future of his children. They now have many issues that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. You're equating his choosing to end a marriage that was not working for him with him causing the death of his wife and destroying the future of his children? That's a pretty big leap to make! When I left my husband he also threatened, and attempted, to commit suicide - as he'd done before I left. I refused to be manipulated into staying because a marriage based on fear and pity, underscored by manipulation and threats, was not something I wanted any part of and was not something I could justify bringing up children within. Leaving was the best thing I could have done, and had he killed himself I would have placed the responsibility where it belonged - with his inability to deal with his issues and to face up to his responsibilities. The H in this post, like everyone else who knew the BW - INCLUDING HER CHILDREN when they learn what happened - is going to be beating himself up about this, imagining what he could have done differently to prevent it. Maybe something, maybe nothing, we'll never know - but even if there was something, my question would be - would the price not have been too high? If remaining trapped in an unhappy marriage with a mentally unstable woman dangling suicide over his head as a constant threat is what it would take, then I'd question whether he AND THE CHILDREN are perhaps not better off with the worst already having happened, and not a constant threat consuming their lives and inhibiting their behaviour. OK, flame away... Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 OWoman: No flames here...I agree with everything that you said... Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 OW... I enjoy reading your posts so much... This is well said... I agree with everything you said here... Link to post Share on other sites
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