luvmy2ns Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Your grandparents chose the traditional form of marriage. I don't see this happening with Lb but I could be wrong. If she wants a traditional role, why is she choosing a career path in school and why is she still with someone who doesn't want a traditional partner? that's why I said this earlier: I'm sorry, but her attitude of "the man pays" is BS unless she wants to take on the opposing role of barefoot and pregnant. She appears to want to have it both ways, all in her favor.
curiousnycgirl Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 My grandparents were married well over 60 years before one of them passed away.. My grandmother never worked a single day... ever.. but she cooked almost all the meals.. and they many other areas of balance in their marriage.. A far smaller percentage of couples living in 2008 are able to enjoy this lifestyle. The economy just no longer supports it, AND our "NEEDS" as a society are far greater than they were during earlier/simpler times. Having said that - in your grandparents' marriage I am sure they had their own equity. Being a stay at home mother/wife is NOT an easy job and it is 24X7, not 9-5 (or whatever).
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 that's why I said this earlier: She appears to want to have it both ways, all in her favor. Yeap, I also stated this in my previous post to L_b. Apparently we are of similar mind on this issue.
Saxis Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I'm the only guy posting.. damn.. it is a tough crowd in here... Yeah, good luck with that. About who's paying for the dates, for me it comes down to who's asking. If I invite someone out to dinner, I'll be paying. An offer to help pay is appreciated, but I'll decline. If I'm invited out to dinner, I'll offer that I at least pay my share, unless declined. Once a relationship is formed, things can be agreed on differently. When it comes right down to it.... If you're enjoying yourselves, is it really worth arguing about?
Nevermind Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Somehow I feel like I started this round. I am sorry if all this makes you feel bad, LB. Art-Critic: Just for the record , I am a woman, student, with very little income (5000 a year and rent paid with that money, too!) but I hardly ever except invitations to things that I couldn't pay for myself. And I make sure that if I am invited, the next bill is on me. Sure, there are many things that I can't do, but independence is so worth it. Don't think you know every woman, if you know some. We are legion, but each of us unique. (Same goes for men.)
sunshinegirl Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 About who's paying for the dates, for me it comes down to who's asking. If I invite someone out to dinner, I'll be paying. An offer to help pay is appreciated, but I'll decline. If I'm invited out to dinner, I'll offer that I at least pay my share, unless declined. Once a relationship is formed, things can be agreed on differently. I agree with this. But I will also say that I am not opposed to guys picking up the tab, especially early in a relationship. I get kinda tired of hearing guys bitch and moan about paying for dates. By my calculations, the women they want to date typically have to shell out a helluva a lot of money to become attractive enough to be taken out on a date in the first place! Think about it: women's clothes usually cost more. Dry cleaning women's clothes for sure costs more (why does a woman's 'blouse' cost more to clean than a guy's 'dress shirt'? pisses me off to no end). Haircuts cost more. Makeup, mani's, pedis, all of that stuff that attracts guys costs money. Men simply don't have to spend that kind of money to turn a woman's eye. So suck it up, boys, and think of it as paying the woman back for all the hard work she did to attract you. [by way of caveat: I have been happily dating my love for about a year now, and we contribute fairly evenly when we go out, and we have good ways of communicating about it when something feels off to one of us]
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 For the independent women in this thread, have you never done the sneak pay or arm wrestle for the bill? Sometimes it gets pretty bad. Guys have egos as well, in that they like to show they can afford to pay. It's quite a little dance to assert independence while not hurting male pride/ego.
Star Gazer Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 For the independent women in this thread, have you never done the sneak pay or arm wrestle for the bill? Sometimes it gets pretty bad. Guys have egos as well, in that they like to show they can afford to pay. It's quite a little dance to assert independence while not hurting male pride/ego. I have done the sneak pay (hunting down the server on the way to the "ladies room" to pay before the check even hits the table), as well as arm-wrestled for the bill. I've never had a guy graciously accept - it's always a fight.
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I have done the sneak pay (hunting down the server on the way to the "ladies room" to pay before the check even hits the table), as well as arm-wrestled for the bill. I've never had a guy graciously accept - it's always a fight. Add in the pre-date agreement. "I will not go out with you unless you allow me to pay".
StartingOver07 Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I once had a date finally acquiesce to my paying by saying, "Ok, you can pay. But please use my credit card!" :lmao:
Nevermind Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 TrialbyFire: Mh. Well, I am not the most experienced in dating...but I find that a bride smile and a "Please, let me have the pleasure." usually works fine. If it's really hard on them, I allow them to buy me something sugary the very next instant. [/sugar-addict]. It's all about being light and easy about it. Don't make it a conversation topic, just do it. StartingOver: Priceless. He would have gotten me that one. I would have been under the table laughing my ass off while he would have paid the bill. :lmao:
Saxis Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with this. But I will also say that I am not opposed to guys picking up the tab, especially early in a relationship. I would have no qualms about it, but if the woman doesn't at least offer every once in a while, I will feel like I'm being taken advantage of. Don't be expecting to go on any more expensive dates.... I get kinda tired of hearing guys bitch and moan about paying for dates. By my calculations, the women they want to date typically have to shell out a helluva a lot of money to become attractive enough to be taken out on a date in the first place! Think about it: women's clothes usually cost more. Dry cleaning women's clothes for sure costs more (why does a woman's 'blouse' cost more to clean than a guy's 'dress shirt'? pisses me off to no end). Haircuts cost more. Makeup, mani's, pedis, all of that stuff that attracts guys costs money. Men simply don't have to spend that kind of money to turn a woman's eye. So suck it up, boys, and think of it as paying the woman back for all the hard work she did to attract you. If truth be known, you really don't have to go through all that trouble to impress us. The less makeup, the better. Jeans and t-shirt are great. I'm not gonna be taking you to a 5 star restaurant until I know you're worth it! It's like a man saying to a woman, you will support me but I also expect that you will take care of all my domestic needs. I'll have to say I might be a little bitter because this situation was reversed onto me. I wasn't forced into it or anything, but someone had to pay the bills, clean the house and make dinner....
Art_Critic Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 It's quite a little dance to assert independence while not hurting male pride/ego. ahhh.. but are you trying to assert some independence or are you trying to retain/regain control over the courting process ? I think it can be seen as exerting dominance rather than independence if it isn't done right or done with the right intentions. Exerting dominance on a date isn't a good sign while asserting independence is a very positive trait.
Krytie TV Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 There isn't a woman posting on this thread that doesn't want a man to pick up the tab for dinners and lets him too.. There also isn't a woman here that doesn't want a man to support her.. You guys are just trying to beat the OP down because she is vocalizing what really happens in the dating and courting process and the same thing that happens in life.. The man has and most likely always will ( with a few exceptions ) pay the biggest brunt during the dating and courting process.. We accept it because it is just that way and we want to get laid.. Her BF isn't doing what most guys would do.. and that is court her.. Wow Art, the tone of this post isn't like you. Did someone poop in your wheaties today? I will agree that what Laurie is looking for would definitely build resentment in me, especially with my income. As a man, I like to do things for the women I'm with, whenever the opportunity is there. I want to do it to surprise her, make her feel special, to make her happy, and to make her feel like I pay attention. Despite my shortcomings, I do feel a small sense of obligation in this respect. UNTIL it becomes expected, then I shut down. Laurie, the fact that you bf is still doing these things is a testament to his patience and caring for you. Do you see that he is staying/going in debt because of your expectations. I don't blame you for that, but I think you should acknowledge it. But people, Art is absolutely correct here. Women will hee and haw about wanting to be equal and contribute equally... long enough for the guy to pull out the wallet and let her off the hook. Then comes the mental fist-pump. I recently had a first date and the woman said the words, "let me buy you a drink, what are you having." It freakin blew my mind. Thirty-three years old and I have never heard those words before on a date. THAT'S a reality. I agree that OP's expectations need to decrease if there is going to be any equilibrium here. But I think the women posting should be careful to put themselves too high on a pedestal when many of their behaviors are likely very similar, just more covert. It's nice to come on an impersonal dating site and talk about how you take your SO out to dinner and do nice things for them financially, but come on. Is that reality? Forums like this are often more about what people want to believe about themselves than what is actually true.
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 ahhh.. but are you trying to assert some independence or are you trying to retain/regain control over the courting process ? I think it can be seen as exerting dominance rather than independence if it isn't done right or done with the right intentions. Exerting dominance on a date isn't a good sign while asserting independence is a very positive trait. It can be perceived either way, depending on how the man involved, takes it. I can't control his perception but I do know why I do it. I see it as an assertion of independence and also as the opportunity to not take advantage of another's generosity.
allina Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I feel like you guys equate money with control and equality too much. For me, especially in my relationship money is just money. Why does everything have to be a power struggle?
Art_Critic Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Wow Art, the tone of this post isn't like you. Did someone poop in your wheaties today? thanks for taking notice Krytie.... nah.. nobody pooped in my wheaties.. it was just one of those things you write and after you write it you look back and think it was a bit too critical and by the time you edit it you can't..
Art_Critic Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I see it as an assertion of independence and also as the opportunity to not take advantage of another's generosity..........
Saxis Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I'm not gonna be taking you to a 5 star restaurant until I know you're worth it! Just to clarify, this doesn't mean putting out....
Nevermind Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Art: Having some control about the courting process isn't the same as dominating it. Krytie: I know you're having a hard time, but don't let your bad experiences guide your judgement of the female users here. You said you heard an invitation for the very first time in your dating life. Wow. That's really not a lot. But see it this way: a while ago you would have said that you never had it and that you doubt you ever will. Now you have to make allowance for the fact that there are some women out there who will invite men. Maybe there are more of them, than you think. After all, you have only dated a very percentage of the world's female population. And only a tiny portion of loveshack's users are posting here in this thread. Maybe the dating world speaks another language. Maybe there are many women who expect the men to pay. But telling the women who are not like that, that they are dishonest...is really out of line. Everyone is different. And everybody makes their own choices. Men as well as women. Some pay, some don't. Anyway, maybe we should move this discussion as we now truly hijacked lauriebell's thread.
Krytie TV Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I don't think they're dishonest, I just think their realities might be a bit departed from their assertions, that's all.
Nevermind Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Well, as I said before, English isn't my first language. For me this is just a different wording. If your reality is different from what you say it is, than you are a liar. Simple as that. But I am now getting my dictionary.
Trialbyfire Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 I don't think they're dishonest, I just think their realities might be a bit departed from their assertions, that's all. Assumption or projection?
Author Lauriebell82 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Posted January 4, 2008 Sheesh I just got home from work and I can't believe how many more posts my thread got! Clarification for all inquiring: What I said does NOT mean I want to stay home and cook while the man goes and earns the money. I didn't go to college for 7 years to be a housewife. HOWEVER I don't agree with just splitting the check all the time. In a relationship you treat each other..and maybe expect was the wrong word. I LIKE when my boyfreind treats me to things..and I like to treat him. However, sometimes he goes a little too "accountant" and starts treating dates like a freaking accounting transaction. It's all about who pays, blah blah blah. Sorry but I think that's annoying. Yeah, he has a lot more spending money and he treats me often..it's very sweet. I try to treat him when I can because I love him too. But like I said, the number crunching gets to be too much sometimes. And he does ask me to do things, then asks me if I can pay my share..there is just soemthing about that I don't like. It's not like polite or something. During our talk we worked it out and said that we wouldn't ask the other person to do something if we weren't going to pay. And I agreed that I would offer to pay for things that were less expensive then dinners. The reason we sometimes clash about this is NOT BECAUSE I EXPECT HIM TO PAY. It's more that he is hung up on things being fairly equated for..he thinks of dates as like accounting transactions like I said. I just think it's a little unromantic to ask your gf to "pay her share." To me dating shouldn't be like that. So that's the real issue, it's more his obsession with fairness that gets to me. Believe me, the only time I want to stay home is when I have children...something we have already talked about. But I do plan on working and having a career. I guess I just don't like the "pay your share" crap that he sometimes does. Treating each other is one thing, viewing it like a transaction is another.
Krytie TV Posted January 4, 2008 Posted January 4, 2008 Assumption or projection? I don't know... my eyes are glazing over trying to decide. The point is that I think that what is being said may be their genuine perception of things, when the reality may be very different.
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