Question about womens' sexuality and drive...aka another sexless marriage

January 2, 2008

LG, you don't have to worry about being a "better" person -- there is nothing in your posts to suggest that you are anything but caring and compassionate!

It absolutely seems that this is about something that is going on within your wife's thought patterns, that may or may not be coming from a traumatic earlier event that she experienced, that you have absolutely nothing negative to do with.

The other side of "if you loved me you'd do <this>", is of course "if I loved you, I'd accept <that> about you." -- Don't let such manipulative tactics cloud your own knowledge and assessment of yourself, or decrease your own self-esteem and confidence in your intentions and desires.

January 2, 2008

Ronni, yes it is adolescent of her. I've told her that the tantrums and screaming and crying make me feel like I'm married to a little girl. Not to mention the babying she needs and wants. It is a problem, but she does see other husbands dote on their wives. She says that she wants me to be like them.

Yes, I actually mentioned in an earlier post here that I don't THINK she's been abused. If she has, she's repressed it. My HS girlfriend was abused by her dad as a kid for many years. I was the first person she told and I helped her work through it with the state and her family...I know how devastating that can be for someone. If she's been abused, I'd think it's been repressed... But I don't think that she has.

Tomcat, it could be...Plus I'm not good at talking about how I feel...but yeah. We don't have much of a romantic relationship. We do take trips together and have fun together, but there is never sex of course. She does like to hug and kiss, though...that's it.

I've had a couple of friends who have mentioned that she treats me like a mom. And one time when I was drinking with friends I referred to her as "my mom" by accident. The guy replies..."Do you mean to say your wife?" Ooops...

Yes, the way she tells me that I'm cute, and the things she does for me, and how she yells and questions purchases, etc I do feel like I'm married to a mom. Her parents don't have a romantic R either...they NEVER touch, kiss, hug, or embrace. They are purely roommates...of course she cooks for him and scolds him.

January 2, 2008

So the more she demands from you, the more you pull away. The more she wants to communicate with you, the less you want to communicate with her. Perhaps she's gotten to the point where only tantrums will get your undivided attention.

Romance isn't always about getting laid.

Whether any of this is right or off-base, it takes two to tango, unless she's got some form of mental illness or disorder. I'm assuming she doesn't since it's not something you've ever brought up, even though the both of you have pursued therapy.

January 2, 2008

Her parents don't have a romantic R either...they NEVER touch, kiss, hug, or embrace. They are purely roommates...of course she cooks for him and scolds him.

Okay, then to her, this is how a relationship, a marriage is supposed to be. If she saw that in her parents while growing up, then chances are it's all she knows and what she is basing everything on.

January 2, 2008

Whichwayisup...well, thank you for your sympathy, but that worries me because I value your opinion and know that you have a lot of perspective. It means that there are some major issues here. Yes, everything was for her benefit. She says I don't make enough money and that I chose the wrong field (I'm a medical research scientist) so I went to extra schooling, did the real estate investing, etc. She gave me an ultimatum that if she's going to have kids, she's going to stay home....so I felt the pressure to do these things to have more money. Her rebuttal to that is that I'm getting the fruits of those labors too, so it's not for her.

She will NOT lower her level of expectation. She has a high level of expectation for ALL of her friends and my family. It's a huge source of strife for us when someone doesn't act or perform the way she would or the way she'd expect...hence the issues with my mom who is much more selfish than her mom.

Regarding self esteem, when I bring it up she always says "If you think I you think I have a self esteem problem then start giving me more compliments and giving me what i need so that I won't have the problem!" She doesn't get it...it MUST come from within...she's no longer a 5 year old.

RonniW, yes, I've told her that. I've told her that maybe she should just accept me for who I am. Her retort lately is that I'm an a-hole and that I should want to change.

January 2, 2008

If she's been abused, I'd think it's been repressed... But I don't think that she has.

Her parents ...NEVER touch, kiss, hug, or embrace. They are purely roommates...of course she cooks for him and scolds him.

<whew!> Well, in many ways it's easier to overcome family of origin patterns than deal with repressed memories of sexual abuse

Is your wife aware of how her marriage is mirroring that of her parents'? Would she like something different than they have? What positives does she see in theirs (what does she value?) and what negatives (what does she NOT want to have, in her romantic relationship)?

Taking it in a totally different direction...

How is this relationship similar to the one with your HS g/f? -- are there any patterns of which you're currently aware? Behaviours of yours that are similar but that did not serve the HS relationship as well as you'd hoped?

January 2, 2008

Okay, then to her, this is how a relationship, a marriage is supposed to be. If she saw that in her parents while growing up, then chances are it's all she knows and what she is basing everything on.

She says she doesn't want a R like theirs but since she treats me the way her mom treats her dad, that's what it became. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The difference is her Dad gives her Mom 1/10 the attention I give...he doesn't even know her mom's or her birthdays.

January 2, 2008

Her retort lately is that I'm an a-hole and that I should want to change.

That is totally from the perspective of someone who is scared to look at something deeper within themselves -- blame and accusation are the miracle cures to that level of fear.

And it doesn't matter that you KNOW you're not what she's saying, does it? Hearing that from the person you love just cuts to the core.

Does she know or care that she's hurting you at this level? Or, do you care? Does she know your limit of how much of this you are willing to subject yourself to? Do you know what that limit is?

Perhaps you do need to find that limit, and let her know. (I think someone said that in an earlier post, but in different words.)

January 2, 2008

<whew!> Well, in many ways it's easier to overcome family of origin patterns than deal with repressed memories of sexual abuse

Is your wife aware of how her marriage is mirroring that of her parents'? Would she like something different than they have? What positives does she see in theirs (what does she value?) and what negatives (what does she NOT want to have, in her romantic relationship)?

Taking it in a totally different direction...
How is this relationship similar to the one with your HS g/f? -- are there any patterns of which you're currently aware? Behaviours of yours that are similar but that did not serve the HS relationship as well as you'd hoped?

She's becoming aware of that. I've mentioned it. She sees VERY LITTLE in their intereactions that she wants. BUT she sees the domestic service that her mom gives and THAT is of utmost importance to her in our relationship. I can live without it...she didn't do that for me when we were dating and I still loved her. Food is not that interesting to me...

My HS LT girlfriend was completely different but she was needy in her own ways. She hung on me at all times and was very into me...obsessive almost. She was very sexual. She never shared her frustrations with me and never told me when I upset her which I didn't like, but we NEVER screamed and she NEVER scolded me...she was just a little bossy. The R did get cold after 1 year or so and I did disconnect from her...but I had started college locally, worked full time (actually 2 FT jobs in the summer), and was busy 100% of the time. She was still a senior in HS and we were really in different dimensions at that point. It was a maturing of the relationship and ourselves...I was ready to move on.

BUT I may have just gotten bored with her. And I may have gotten bored with my wife years ago....I really don't know. It could be a pattern with me, but with only two LTRs and at such a young age, it's hard to know for sure.

January 2, 2008

That is totally from the perspective of someone who is scared to look at something deeper within themselves -- blame and accusation are the miracle cures to that level of fear.

And it doesn't matter that you KNOW you're not what she's saying, does it? Hearing that from the person you love just cuts to the core.

Does she know or care that she's hurting you at this level? Or, do you care? Does she know your limit of how much of this you are willing to subject yourself to? Do you know what that limit is?

Perhaps you do need to find that limit, and let her know. (I think someone said that in an earlier post, but in different words.)

Yes, it cuts deeply. She says its the only way she knows to hurt me since she thinks I have no feelings. She says I hurt her by not treating her "nicely" and she wants to hurt back by calliing me terrible names. The MC told her that that is NOT the way to do it. I has created more distance between us...it DOES hurt. Honestly, I've gotten numb to it at this point.

I have told her that I will NOT tolerate the screaming, etc. That was 5-6 months ago, though. She continued to do it. Finally the other day I told her that I think this marriage may not work b/c I can't show love for someone who calls me an *******... I told her that I'm in an abusive relationship....ironic b/c she tells me that she's emotionally abused b/c I treat her "not nice" as she puts it. She says she thinks it's perfectly fine to scream and call me names if she doesn't like how I'm acting but for the sake of the M she said she's going to stop. But just today she again told me that if i'm an a-hole it's OK to call me one.... It's a mess....

To be honest, I'm almost at my limit. After my wife drove down to my grandparents and parents houses after a big fight a couple of months ago telling them that Im going to leave her, etc I decided to finally have a talk with my Mom yesterday. For the first time in 14 years I talked about my marriage with her and explained what was really going on with us. I told her that I have strongly considered leaving due to the emotional abuse, the fact that I can't make her happy, etc.

My mom loves my wife but knows that my wife had problems with her and she can see some of the issues that my W has. Of course, my mom understands and is supportive.

January 2, 2008

BUT she sees the domestic service that her mom gives and THAT is of utmost importance to her in our relationship.

My HS LT girlfriend was ...needy in her own ways. She hung on me at all times and was very into me...obsessive almost.

So...[1] your wife is over-identifying with her Dad -- wants to be "serviced" the same way he is, and [2] you are attracted to needy women who obsess over whatever they need from you (regardless that their neediness manifests in entirely different ways.)

And maybe we can stretch it and add [3] You get bored with them after you've successfully done whatever it is you do, that gets them over-dependent on you in the first place (???)

Honestly, I don't know what, if anything, any of that means for you. But I do think that sometimes if we get really "out there" with the patterns and open to re-interpreting them, something can reveal itself.

You do have my empathy, as I've mentioned earlier. It's awful when one cannot see anything good or remotely hopeful...all's we can do is keep plugging away, thinking and doing the best we know in the moment.

January 2, 2008

To be honest, I'm almost at my limit.

There it is then.

Your wife will blame you, without realizing that it is her lack of adult self-awareness and self-control that led to this.

Her fear of whatever are her inner demons caused this. I dare say there was never anything you could have done on your own...without your wife's adult involvement, that is.

I'm glad that you have your Mom's support -- I suspect that most if not all those who love you both will by now have recognized that you are in a no-win situation.

Sending hugs and good wishes.

January 2, 2008

Actually my point was that my wife wants to serve me domestically. But, I guess you're right. She wants that from me too.

You may be right in your assessment of my patterns...but to be perfectly honest. What attracted me to my HS GF was that she was hot, had a nice butt, big boobs and loved to fool around. I did love her after a period of time, but our relationship was built mostly on lust. I just dealt with the clinginess till I got too busy. We were 16 and 17...

Thanks for your help...I really appreciate it.

January 2, 2008

Please read The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis. You'll think it was written with the two of you in mind. There are plenty of people on LS who know how lonely a sexless marriage can be.

January 2, 2008

Sending hugs and good wishes.

Thanks Ronni...you're sweet. Yes, her mom has HUGE self esteem problems. My wife knows that, but somehow being raised in an environment of self-hatred has caused her a lot of damage. I think it's getting worse the older she gets...

Man, I need a break from typing...my wife is gonna wonder what I'm up to ;-) Time for a beer... Happy New Year everyone!

January 2, 2008

Look Lanky it doesn't look like you are the problem here, sex if vital to a marriage it is the glue that keeps it together and the intimacy that is shared in order for that sex to happen is the KEY.

Your woman sounds like she has a very low self esteem and it puts a LOT of pressure on your to fix her. I sense that even if you did start doing things for her on the 8th and the 21st of the month above and beyond the 11th and if you did things randomly, she would shift her bottomless pit of neediness to have it so that you are doing something special for her on the 12th, 14th , 3rd and 28th of every month because NOTHING will ever be enough. That is what neediness is it only quites the inner child but it gives nothing in return, children do that they cry and cry and take when it feels bad and stop when it feels better. Then they start to take again, but children are supposed to do that it is the only way that they learn to trust. This woman has never learned to trust the world around her.

You can't get if you don't give, showing you appreciation for the small things you ALREADY do would do wonders for motivating you to give more. She obviously doesn't get this. Do you tell her this? Have you told her just how her ungreatfulness for what you DO give, is a bit of a slap in the face to you too? The thing is you mention you are not good at communication but in order to have your needs met you must be wiling to talk about them openly, maturely and in a loving way.

your therapist is right she is SUPER high maintenance, and not in a Paris Hilton sort of way, she is emotionally high maintenance and there isn't a man on earth that can fulfill that quota of need in another human being. It absolutely has to come from within.

Is she going to individual therapy then? PLUS she sounds manipulative to withold sex until you can give at her level of approval, that makes me so sad to know that women do that. I suppose men tend to do that too but typically I see that a lot of women use sex as a tool to get something else and not as an expression of love. How sad!

I've had a couple of friends who have mentioned that she treats me like a mom. And one time when I was drinking with friends I referred to her as "my mom" by accident. The guy replies..."Do you mean to say your wife?" Ooops...

Well that's because you are living like roomates with someone who is nothing more than a good homekeeper/ maid and companion and this is just like living with a parent, you know you love them but not in a sexual way

Yes, the way she tells me that I'm cute, and the things she does for me, and how she yells and questions purchases, etc I do feel like I'm married to a mom. Her parents don't have a romantic R either...they NEVER touch, kiss, hug, or embrace. They are purely roommates...of course she cooks for him and scolds him.

At least your W is still affectionate right?

January 2, 2008

Actually my point was that my wife wants to serve me domestically.

You may be right in your assessment of my patterns...

Thanks for your help...I really appreciate it.

Sorry -- I really didn't mean to come on that *I* am assessing your patterns...that would be extremely arrogant of me . Rather, I was putting stuff out there for you to consider (and not necessarily in this forum...privately, if you choose.)

I didn't get that your wife was interested in "serving you domestically" -- what is the politically correct term for that, anyway ? Because "docile wives" just have sex without complaint, and do NOT call their husband's names, and certainly do not voice concerns over not being treated "nice".

I honestly don't feel that I "helped" at all -- but I do appreciate your saying that. Just another tangible demonstration of your 'big heartedness', if you had asked me .

January 2, 2008

She has very rigid, defined expectations of how she imagines a marriage is, and how the two of you should interact. She can't let go of those presuppositions and just let your relationship evolve into its own natural mode of back and forth.

From everything you've said, it does sound as though withholding sex might be a control thing for her. This is a theory of another poster here, Cobra, but he applies it to all sexless marriages. I don't agree with him that it applies in every case, but I think it might apply here.

As for her critiques of you, I agree with other posters who said they are a way of deflecting blame and negativity from herself. I think she would find something to pick at no matter what, just to keep herself from looking within. This is something I have been guilty of in the past, so I can recognize it. However, in a way it is a good sign because it shows she still feels emotionally connected and attached to you. If she felt removed and distant, she wouldn't care what you did. She still shouldn't pick at you. I wonder what would happen if she agreed to stop for a period of time, or had to put money in a jar or something each time she slammed you. I wonder what kind of light that would shed on your relationship and where her negative energy would go if she couldn't do that anymore.

January 2, 2008

Lanky - why are you still with this frigid, controlling, abusive, immature drama queen? What (aside from meals - but you can get those from Mr Delivery) are you getting out of this?

Your situation sounds eerily like my MM's, before he finally got it together to leave. His W also dropped out of MC when the counsellor told her she'd have to stop her abusive behaviour - she'd wanted all the fingers to point at her H. My MM's W just got worse and worse over the years, abusing him in public, attacking him physically on occasion even in front of the kids, and started taking her issues out on them too. This is likely to happen with your toxic W too, unless something breaks the patterns.

Unless she is prepared to change - and "new year's resolutions" aren't it; REAL change, like going for therapy and dealing with her issues instead of expecting everyone else to do it for her - you're on a hiding to nothing.

I'd spend some time reflecting on what's actually in this for you - compared to all the pain and suffering - and then decide if you're even willing to invest in making it better ASSUMING she'd be willing to try. My gut says she's not - even if she makes a token gesture like new year's resolutions - she's had plenty of chances but being right is more important to her than being decent.

I'd urge you to walk away, while you still have your sanity, and find a real woman who's not screwed up - there are plenty out there - and have an adult relationship rather than an abusive, co-dependant one that leaves you frustrated and hurt.

January 3, 2008

Here is a link we're discussing in our house, actually right now, about this very topic.

http://www.asexuality.org/home/

My MIL and I are very close, and she has never liked sex. She was pregnant once, had my H, and could care less for it ever again. She just ended a 9 year relationship with her boyfriend, and part of their problems (Among a lot of things) she finally decided to put down the "No sex in the champagne room" fight.

This is more common than I ever thought. Could your wife be considered this? Does this article sound like her?

Does she still have passion in her life, passionate about things, still live with love and vigor, just not in the bedroom?

There are hormone deficiencies in certain people, certain ages, etc. and it could be something simple as adjusting hormones to kick that into gear. If she didn't want sex on your wedding night, or honeymoon, I'd have to point to this article, or look into her not being attracted to you at all.

I'm 33, H is 32, and we have sex twice a day, sometimes three times on Sundays. We've been married 5 years, together for 7. And all he has to do is wink at me, make his creases around his eyes a little more deep, (and they get deeper the older he gets) and that's it, I'm half stripped and on my way to the bedroom. One glance is all it takes from this man, and he has control of my body, I wish I could serve that to your wife, seriously I do. And I am not bragging, I want you to know that our ages are the same, and the marriage length about right, to show you that sexless marriages aren't always the case.

I don't know if its because I'm Italian? Hormonal? Or just lucky to find the man I can't wait to spend the rest of my life with. We're open to new ideas and positions, and even porn, of which I only can take under certain conditions, otherwise I don't like it. My first marriage was basically a friendship with a ring. We were roommates by our second year with separate beds, and I only kissed him on the cheek. And was drunk on our wedding night, yeah I had no idea what I was doing. I was also 19 and very confused about everything.

So either she's Asexual in nature, needs hormones, or just not the right person for you. I see some posts about manipulative means to her withholding sex, I'll have to read what you guys said to figure it out.

Marriage counseling is a great start. It will help open up a lot of issues, and then you can see if there a path you both can agree upon to keep your marriage. GOOD LUCK to you!!!! I hope you find what you're looking for, and you both are very happy and blessed.

KKthx

January 3, 2008

Lanky, I feel for you on this, I mean from what I've read it seems you are not an a-hole, your wife just has her own issues, mentally and physically (the arthritis which probably makes her feel depressed, limited to what she can and can't do) that affects the marriage, let alone how she relates to you.

You say you post schooling first, work first, well - ALL that was for her benefit, to provide for her, to build a life with her. It's just she cannot see that.

One other thing is, SHE needs to work on her self esteem issues. You can tell her 100x that you find her sexy, beautiful, hot ... But she needs to feel that within so she can believe it when you said it.

See, she has to lower her expectation level and see that in actions that you've done in the past (working, school etc), plus other little things you do DO SHOW that you love and care for her. She just is'nt getting that yet..

This was beautifully said! For the one time I didn't ready each post before opening my big unwanted mouth, it bites me back. Sorry!! This is such great insight, wow, thanks! I needed to read these things myself! thxthx!!

ps, it wont let me delete my posts, I apologize for submitting my responses before reading the entire thread. I'M A NOOB i'm soo sorry LS!!!! And I apologize to the H whose thread this is....

Edited January 3, 2008 by kkthxbye
DOH

January 3, 2008

For a few years, I had a lower libido. However, this is now not the case. My libido is in overdrive and I cannot get enough sex. My point is that things can change around. It's whether you are willing to wait it out.

January 3, 2008

. She gave me an ultimatum that if she's going to have kids, she's going to stay home....so I felt the pressure to do these things to have more money. Her rebuttal to that is that I'm getting the fruits of those labors too, so it's not for her.

She does realize that you 2 have to have sex in order to have kids right??

There was a period of time where my sex drive was much lower a few months ago. I was also stressed, irratible, and overwhelmed with life also. I found talking with my OB/GYN and family doctor helped tremendously. I couldn't understand why I felt the way I did. My husband thought it was his fault and I couldn't pinpoint the problem. Needless to say I went on a lower dose BCP and an antidepressant. I can see 110% improvement in just the way I feel!

But besides the fact that she does not have a sex drive I think there is more to your situation. Sex was the only lacking part in mine and my husband's case. You and your wife have communication issues. She totally disregards your need for anything, not just sex. Your feeling/needs need to be justified as well. You can't go on being the so called "a-hole" forever. Maybe you should give her a list of things you would like her to do for you emotionally and physically and then see if she considers them achievable.

January 3, 2008

This was beautifully said! For the one time I didn't ready each post before opening my big unwanted mouth, it bites me back. Sorry!! This is such great insight, wow, thanks! I needed to read these things myself! thxthx!!

Thank you for the compliment.

For a few years, I had a lower libido. However, this is now not the case. My libido is in overdrive and I cannot get enough sex. My point is that things can change around. It's whether you are willing to wait it out.

Yup. This is true!

January 5, 2008

Hi everyone. Thanks for your responses. I've put a lot of thought into this. My W and I had a big talk the other night and I asked her some hard questions. I asked her if she was ever even attracted to me or just 'put up' with sex that first year or two until she had the guts to reject me every time later on in the marriage.

I asked her if she was ever really attracted to me or just married me because I'm a nice safe guy and would be a good husband and father...and because I was there at the time and she was ready to get married. Her mother did this EXACT thing...and she's miserable 35 years later. She can't stand her husband, but needs him for his security.

My W has mentioned many times that she would have married her childhood friend if she couldn't find anyone else...this scares me because she has zero attraction to him...he's like a brother to her. The fact that she could see herself being married to someone for whom she feels no attraction is not good.

We talked for hours and I cried and she cried. I told her that she's expecting "romantic" things from me but not providing me anymore than a maternal or roommate type of relationship. I told her that I feel ripped off if she was never actually "into me" that way. I asked her if she just married me because I was nice, had potential, was "marriage material", etc. It was strange...she just listened to me with a scared look on her face. She didn't argue, scream, or bawl. She just said, "I never thought of that...."

She wants to see if she can "get" an attraction to me. She won't acknowledge self esteem issues that should be addressed but she did do reading on screaming and name calling and apologized for it...for the first time ever.

So we'll see what happens...she really wants to hold onto the relationship...for the sake of the relationship...but I don't know if she really loves me the way she should. I often feel like I'm just the object of her "care". Like her son...

It's a shame, because I've always been sexually attracted to her...despite the name calling, etc...I guess that's how we guys work...

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Question about womens' sexuality and drive...aka another sexless marriage

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