trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Hi all, I've browsed the forum for a while, and kind of think about telling my whole story, but find it a little too difficult at the moment. I'll try to give the basics, just to preface my question. Maybe I'll post the whole thing later, as much for me as anything. My wife had an EA, I don't know if it went further. I would say I'm 60-70% sure it did not. Regardless, it has been about 2.5 months since I found out, 3 since it happened. I have no real good reason to think it's still going on now, we're in counseling, etc. Except that sometimes quiet/sometimes screaming voice in the corner of my mind that needs to know FOR SURE that it's really over. I've been checking phone records, and will continue to do so (forever??), but now I'm wondering if I should get into her email and check those records, too. I know, I'm a big privacy proponent, too... But I really really feel compelled to look to be sure. I always hear that those that are trying to reconcile should "trust, but verify"... I want to verify. I could go in right now and check, but I'm forcing myself not to. Actually I think the main reason I am not is because we have about 10 mutual friends coming in town tomorrow for NYE. I don't want to ruin the time for those folks. And I think I can hold back until after NYE... but what would you do after everyone's gone?? And a little tidbit that adds to the hurt- several of the friends coming are in a group we hung out in together- one of the friends in the group was the OM (though he's not coming obviously). Thanks for any advice..
Planofool Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 GO LOOK. It has been seven months since dday with my wife. The day I discovered her cell phone records. If I had it to do all over again I would have stayed quiet and watched to see where it went. But I blew up and confronted her. My wife is not computer savy. She has an e-mail address where she works and doesn't use it. I know this because I check it every week. I even set her up an account thinking she would use it and I would gleam some more info.......no luck. I still check her phone and phone records. I still go through her stuff and purse to this day. I know the OM will contact her again, but it will be how she handles it that will tell the true story. GO LOOK, but stay quiet and watch and listen
whichwayisup Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Definately look. This isn't an invasion of privacy seeing as she was the one who snuck around behind your back. Until you can see for yourself that he isn't in the picture at all anymore, no trust for her can come back. Sure, she can tell you till the cows come home at night that they aren't in contact, but you need to actually SEE that it's true. She broke your faith and trust, she needs to earn that back BY being an open book to you. She should be giving you her passwords and cell phone records, letting you check whenever you feel like it, I mean, if she has nothing to hide, then you looking won't be a problem. Have you talked to the OM about this? Told him to F-OFF and leave her alone? Not to contact her in any way whatsoever?
blind_otter Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I think that there should be total disclosure when there's an affair. Just be open about it and let her know the situation.
Author trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 Have you talked to the OM about this? Told him to F-OFF and leave her alone? Not to contact her in any way whatsoever? Thanks for the responses... I will look- after everyone leaves next week. I'm just a little scared for what I might find. Here's what I foresee- either 1)there will be no contact and I will feel a little better, but still won't be sure... or 2) there will be enough to get angry about, but nothing too damning. In other words, maybe he'll have emailed and she'll have responded and it will be civil, but "innocent" and I'm not sure if I want to end what we have over something like that. Or also bad, it will let her know that I'm still snooping, and I'll lose that "tool". Then later she'll be more careful, and if something really is going on later, I won't know.. But I need to know. And I think I know a way, if there is something mostly benign in there, that I can still keep my access to her email, and not cause her to "go darK"...
Planofool Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 My wife told me I should have been a detective. The thing is....when they are in that FOG of the affair they don't think to well. It makes it easier to track them. I am not trying to be terrible here but I'm betting you won't like what you find.
jj2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Check it out. It may not make you feel any better though. My H had a P/A about 9 months ago and I still check every now and then. I would rather know the worst than to know nothing at all. Good luck and hugs!
cj1988 Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 You need to go look for sure, if you do not it will kill you ! Has your W come clean with it all or do you think she as not telling the truth?
bestadvisor Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Guys, please don't confuse "privacy" and "the right to know." Privacy is when someone uses the bathroom and don't want to be monitored or watched. The right to know is the right that a married partner has in regards to the potential sexual activity that the other spouse has that could destroy the marriage, bring STDs into the marriage, etc.
michaelk Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I disagree with WWIU here. If you go look without her knowledge, it is an invasion of privacy. You may feel it's a justified one, but the fact remains that that's what it is. If your lack of trust in her is such that you have to look at her personal communications, then why haven't you set that as a ground rule? You should tell her that you don't trust her, won't again for who knows how long, and that in order to stay in the marriage you must have open access to her phone records, email accounts, snail mail, etc. If she's not willing to agree to this, then that gives you an indication of her level of commitment to fixing things with you. In the end, no matter how much time passes, trust is a choice. You chose to trust her when you married her, and you're going to have to choose to trust her again at some point if you want your marriage to continue. The only question is what you need before you're willing to make that choice.
blind_otter Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Like I said, you need to TELL HER that you're going to look at everything. She should accept that and allow you to look, because she betrayed your trust.
Author trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 I disagree with WWIU here. If you go look without her knowledge, it is an invasion of privacy. You may feel it's a justified one, but the fact remains that that's what it is. If your lack of trust in her is such that you have to look at her personal communications, then why haven't you set that as a ground rule? You should tell her that you don't trust her, won't again for who knows how long, and that in order to stay in the marriage you must have open access to her phone records, email accounts, snail mail, etc. If she's not willing to agree to this, then that gives you an indication of her level of commitment to fixing things with you. In the end, no matter how much time passes, trust is a choice. You chose to trust her when you married her, and you're going to have to choose to trust her again at some point if you want your marriage to continue. The only question is what you need before you're willing to make that choice. I guess it's so fresh that I need more than just to want to trust her. I think over time, I'll be able to without constant reassurance. SO I agree, I need to trust her again, in order for things to work. But I recently had my view of her turned upside down, and so I need to check and see if she's a far cry from who I thought she was, or if she slipped up and is actually making the effort. And I can't just trust her to answer that for me. I've read too many times of those who seem to really want to reconcile, but also can't let go of the other person/people..
Author trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 Like I said, you need to TELL HER that you're going to look at everything. She should accept that and allow you to look, because she betrayed your trust. Well, I agree that's the way it SHOULD be.. but I don't want her to possibly take things more covert. The other fear I didn't really mention is that right now, we're good and she really is practicing NC... but then eventually she forgets what this did to us...
michaelk Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I guess it's so fresh that I need more than just to want to trust her. I think over time, I'll be able to without constant reassurance. SO I agree, I need to trust her again, in order for things to work. But I recently had my view of her turned upside down, and so I need to check and see if she's a far cry from who I thought she was, or if she slipped up and is actually making the effort. And I can't just trust her to answer that for me. I've read too many times of those who seem to really want to reconcile, but also can't let go of the other person/people.. I totally understand your reasons for not trusting and your need to verify. I was simply pointing out that at some point, you will have to make that choice. And frankly, she will have to make a choice too - whether she wants to give up her right to privacy in order to regain your trust.
Owl Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Checking her email was a major point of contention with my wife at one point. But it was checking her email that ended her EA completely. She'd been NC with OM for a couple of weeks...he emailed her on one email account... I happened to be there when she was reading it, she showed it to me, and deleted it without responding. But...he emailed her OTHER email account the next day. She replied to it...and didn't tell me about it. I was 'snooping', saw what had happened, and was waiting for her to tell me. Three days later, when she still hadn't admitted it, I told her I knew, and we had a HUGE blow up...which ended up with her sending an NC letter and final contact happening two days later. This remained an issue...I continued to sporadically check her email for a while...she knew, and it really upset her. We were in counselling...and about a month later, it CLICKED to her. She got why I was still checking her email. It wasn't that I WANTED to find something. It was that I needed that reassurance that nothing was there!!! She realized that the only way she'd rebuild my trust in her was by SHOWING me that she was now trustworthy. That she had nothing to hide. Only by doing that over a period of time was she really able to prove to me that she was NOW being honest and open and that everything was on the level. It sounds to me like you're right at the point where your wife should be starting to get that same message.
whichwayisup Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I disagree with WWIU here. If you go look without her knowledge, it is an invasion of privacy. You may feel it's a justified one, but the fact remains that that's what it is. It isn't when an affair happens...Besides, if she has nothing to hide, then if he looks in her email, then it shouldn't be an issue. She put herself IN this situation, not him. She was one who cheated, and if she is still in contact and hiding that from her husband, well, he has a right to find that out on his own. She needs to PROVE to him that she can be trusted, not only because she tells him she can be trusted, but by her actions as well. And, that means he should be able to look in her email, without giving her a heads up so she doesn't go deleting messages IF there are any from the OM.
michaelk Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I agree that she needs to prove that she can be trusted. But if they don't have a prior agreement that says he has the right to look and that she's willing to allow it, it's an invasion of privacy. He doesn't have to tell her when he's going to look, but she does have to consent to that level of openness. Otherwise you're just heaping one betrayal on top of another, and two wrongs never make a right. I cannot agree with the idea that she automatically forfeits her rights as an individual as a result of having an affair. She is still her own person. He does not own her simply because they're married. The choice of whether or not to open herself up to him has to remain hers. But again, if your point is that she'd better do that if she wants to keep her marriage, then I wholeheartedly agree.
Owl Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 So he tells her he's going to check her email. She opens a new account and changes all of her 'affair' correspondence to that one. He checks the one he knows about, its clean as a whistle. He's convinced she's being trustworthy, she's carrying on the affair behind his back. Fat lot of good it did, huh? She can't regain trust that way either. This "invasion of privacy"...was destroyed and thrown out the window by her STARTING THE AFFAIR IN THE FIRST PLACE. That destroyed the trust he had in her. SHE DOESN'T DESERVE TRUST RIGHT NOW!!!!! Now...once she HAS rebuilt that trust over time? Sure, it should be a mutual agreed on thing. BUT SHE AIN'T THERE YET She's SHOWN him he can't trust her. He'd be a total IDIOT to trust her right now. If he tells her...if he 'gives her privacy'...he's setting the stage for the affair to resume if its not already back underway. Everything you say makes great sense...IF YOU TAKE HER AFFAIR OUT OF THE PICTURE. But you can't right now.
Owl Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 And I'll add...she didn't "automatically forfeits her rights as an individual as a result of having an affair". But she DID forfeit her rights to privacy and secrecy by having the affair.
michaelk Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 He will always run the risk that she will open another account and continue to sneak behind his back. Sneaking behind her back in return doesn't solve that problem. All it will do is make her feel betrayed when she finds out he's been snooping, and although he can come back with "you started it by cheating", that's not going to prevent new resentments from entering the relationship.
Author trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 And I'll add...she didn't "automatically forfeits her rights as an individual as a result of having an affair". But she DID forfeit her rights to privacy and secrecy by having the affair. You both make some good points. I do know one thing- if I hadn't snooped into one of her email accounts, I'd have never known in the first place. I had reason to suspect, and then confirmed it. I feel gross going back into her emails and doing this again, but I feel backed into a wall. And I don't plan to go trudging through irrelevant emails, but if HE is a sender or receiver of an email in the past 2 months, that betrays the agreement we had of NC. I guess I've kind of made the choice to go in. I can't afford (emotionally) to have her know I'm going in, and give her a chance to possibly clean up. And anyway, that wouldn't gain me anything, because I'd know I was only looking at filtered emails. So if she is being "good", I would get no feeling of confirmation from checking it, with her knowledge. I haven't been on her side of this kind of situation, but the way I look at it, I don't write emails that I wouldn't want her to see.
jj2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I haven't been on her side of this kind of situation, but the way I look at it, I don't write emails that I wouldn't want her to see. Exactly. If she isn't doing anything wrong, she should have nothing to hide right? I would check, and I wouldn't tell her. It takes time and verification to be able to trust again.
Author trampompoline Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 Exactly. If she isn't doing anything wrong, she should have nothing to hide right? I would check, and I wouldn't tell her. It takes time and verification to be able to trust again. I hope like hell that I find out that I have no reason to worry anymore. I'm scared of what I could find.
jj2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I hope like hell that I find out that I have no reason to worry anymore. I'm scared of what I could find. I know it's scary hun but sometimes our imaginations can be so much scarier. It's better to know the truth so you have the info you need to decide what is best FOR YOU. Good luck and many hugs! BTDT!
Trialbyfire Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Here's what I would do. I would put a keylogger on her/your computer and then harvest all the different email addresses she has. I would then crack into every single one of them, to see what's going on, printing off, in hardcopy, anything that I felt was pertinent. I would then discuss full disclosure again, with your spouse, and discuss email accounts but not specific ones. Get her to list all her accounts and any password and sign ons. You can then match up the accounts with the ones you've harvested. If she hides any, you've got her nailed.
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