shadowofman Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 How much worse is the action compared to the intent? Wanting to cheat or actually cheating? I mean how would you react if your SO told you that they wanted to sleep with someone else. I know many of you Christians concider it adultery even when it's in the heart.
OpenBook Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 How much worse is the action compared to the intent? Wanting to cheat or actually cheating? I mean how would you react if your SO told you that they wanted to sleep with someone else. I know many of you Christians concider it adultery even when it's in the heart. I have never understood why Jesus said what He did about that subject -- that if it's happening in your heart, you've already committed the sin. Maybe He just wanted to keep us humble. But it just doesn't make any sense to me. EVERYBODY is tempted at times, and falls into the wrong intent in their hearts. It is WHETHER WE ACT UPON IT or not that indicates our character and separates us from the animals. I also firmly believe that even AFTER we make the wrong choices, it's how we deal with it afterwards and "clean up the mess" that also indicates our character. We are all evolving. We all make the wrong call sometimes. It's part of the human condition.
Author shadowofman Posted December 26, 2007 Author Posted December 26, 2007 I understand how you can justify the scripture, but what if your SO told you flat out and unapologetically, "I want to have sex with other people"? Is that just as bad as actually doing it?
OpenBook Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I understand how you can justify the scripture, but what if your SO told you flat out and unapologetically, "I want to have sex with other people"? Is that just as bad as actually doing it? No, not nearly as bad, IMO. But that's not what Jesus said.
Author shadowofman Posted December 26, 2007 Author Posted December 26, 2007 I guess a second part to my question would be, Why is it not so bad? What is it about actually having the sex that makes it so much worst? If having meaningless sex with another person is hurtful to you, wouldn't you be just as hurt if they simply admitted to the desire to do so?
OpenBook Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I guess a second part to my question would be, Why is it not so bad? What is it about actually having the sex that makes it so much worst? If having meaningless sex with another person is hurtful to you, wouldn't you be just as hurt if they simply admitted to the desire to do so? I wanted to kill my daughter many times when she was a teenager -- and admitted as much to her, almost every time. But I refrained. And she is still alive today -- and for that I am very grateful. I can't think of a clearer example than that.:D
Woggle Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 Everybody is tempted sometimes but you should the strength to not fall for it and ruin things over a few minutes of cheap thrills. Thinking about it and actually doing it are two different things. People don't go to prison for life because they think about killing somebody.
Geishawhelk Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 Well, as a Buddhist, one of our precepts is that we 'Vow to refrain from harmful or inappropriate sexual conduct'. But as you can tell, this covers a multitude of "sins".... basically, it's because the definition of what 'you' think is sexual misconduct, depends upon your personal view and intention. To give an example, I personally do not ascribe to a sado-masochistic tendency in my sex life. It does nothing for me, and I frankly can't see the joy, intimacy and pleasure in inflicting or receiving pain upon/from another person. But, having said this, if two consenting adults both feel happiness and fulfilment and are happy to behave in this way, then, who am I to judge, criticise or condemn? So Harmful or inappropriate sexual conduct' in my opinion, would be the type of sex that wilfully erodes the dignity, respect and esteem of a person, to the benefit of another. It is acting sexually, in a way to the detriment of another Being. Therefore, a wish or desire in the heart of my partner, to have sex with another person, would lead me to ask them, first of all, why? Then to ask how strong the temptation is (how likely do they feel it is that the Thought will become Action)? And how long have they been feeling like this? If I am not married to my partner, then to an extent, he is a 'free agent'. He hasn't made any official, public or legal testimony or commitment to being faithful to me, so in essence, in all honesty, I cannot exert any of my Will upon him to tell him what he can or can't do. Even if we were married though, ultimately, I would have to leave him to decide how to proceed. If the reason he is telling me this, is to try to gain some kind of permission, or 'approval', then I'm afraid he's out of luck. He's not getting off that easy! We are all faced with Choices, every day of our lives. The Decisions are ours. but we must face these choices and decisions with open eyes, and fully accept that every time we make any choice at all, there are both Positive - and Negative - consequences.
Geishawhelk Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 In addition to the above, I would also add that, whatever his decision, whatever his choice, the feelings and emotions I experience as a result of any thought or action of his, is consequently, MY Choice.... I can let it rile me, bother me, distress me, anger me, perplex me, hurt me - Or Not. That's MY choice.
Bryanp Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I think that the comment of your wife is extremely hurtful. I would also think that the fact that she told you this may also indicate that she has already done this. If not it also indicates that she is now just waiting for an opportunity to do this. I would suggest get into marriage counseling as fast as you can or your marriage will probably be doomed because of adultry on her part. I wish you luck.
Geishawhelk Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 (edited) Bryanp...nowhere does it actually say that someone's partner actually did say this.... The question has thus far, as far as I can tell, been posed hypothetically. It hasn't actually happened..... As a second point, if you're referring to, or answering 'shadowofman'...I think you'll find that it's a she, not a he.....so she doesn't have a wife.....I don't think..... Edited December 26, 2007 by Geishawhelk second point added....
Bryanp Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I think that Shawdowofman is stating something that has been said to her by her husband. I guess I got the gender mixes up but the advise remain the same what I stated.
JamesM Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 Actually, shadowman could be considering telling his wife. We don't know. I guess OpenBook's example is the best. What is better? Thinking of murder or committing murder? I think this is quite clear. While cheating in the mind is not good, it is not "cheating" in the complete sense of the word. It can be considered complete honesty if your wife or you are straightforward and open. "I want to have sex with someone else" is a starting point for a conversation that could be the beginning of a better marriage. It could also be the beginning of the end. Either way it is an honest resolution.
JamesM Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 As a second point, if you're referring to, or answering 'shadowofman'...I think you'll find that it's a she, not a he.....so she doesn't have a wife.....I don't think..... I think shadowofman is a he. Hopefully he.she will clear this up. Memory tells me that he has had posts regarding his bisexuality...if I have the right person.
Lizzie60 Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 How much worse is the action compared to the intent? Wanting to cheat or actually cheating? I mean how would you react if your SO told you that they wanted to sleep with someone else. I know many of you Christians concider it adultery even when it's in the heart. I think you meant the 'consensus'... Anyway... I think that unless you've actually done the deed... it could not be considered done... If I feel like killing someone... (we all thought about that at one time) if I'm only 'thinking' about it.. it's not 'done'... Same with cheating.. we all, at one moment, thought about it.. it's normal... but unless you become 'obsessed' with it.. it's no big deal... IMO.
LucreziaBorgia Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 How much worse is the action compared to the intent? Wanting to cheat or actually cheating? I mean how would you react if your SO told you that they wanted to sleep with someone else. What is it about actually having the sex that makes it so much worst? If having meaningless sex with another person is hurtful to you, wouldn't you be just as hurt if they simply admitted to the desire to do so? I'm going to go back to some ancient history: my marriage days some years ago. 1. For most people, I would have to say that intent and saying it is probably worse (if indeed it is a true intent to be with someone else and not just a curiosity or fantasy that is shared). It shows forethought and planning - a deliberate action that can't be explained away by "it was an accident" or "I didn't mean for it to happen". To throw in a tiny straw man - it would be like the difference between first degree murder and manslaughter. However... in my case it was somewhat different: 2. It did happen to me in my marriage. I wasn't surprised, actually. Without going into details, let's just say I saw it coming. I wasn't terribly upset, because by the time it happened our marriage had changed from H/W and lovers to family/best friends. We had all the closeness but not in a sexual way - I knew he needed some passion/romance/sexuality so I set him free to do so. I found my own thing as well, and in time we decided that the closeness we shared would not be affected by separation or divorce so we separated into separate houses. We are still close to this day. I think if he had outright lied and cheated instead of proposing an open marriage - we would not be close at all. I always found his honesty about how he was feeling to outweigh any feelings of sexual jealousy or hurt. Besides, I was a supporter of open marriage myself, so in a sense it worked well even if it was simply just a step toward divorce. 3. Now... the actual sex? In the context of our arrangement it wasn't so bad. He would tell me everything, just like he would tell any best friend I guess. I had my issues with it - but it was more issues about myself and my own self worth: ie: he was out having fun and being desired, and I wanted to have someone who found me that way too (rather than wanting him to find me that way). I guess we both reached the romantic breaking point at the same time and that is why I never had so much of a problem with the actual sex. It certainly didn't change how close we were are still are. 4. In my case, I was much better off having him tell me ahead of time. We were both ready to let go in increments by that time anyway. Simple 'behind the back' cheating would have just made our split ugly instead of amicable.
Sleeplesstoo Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I guess a second part to my question would be, Why is it not so bad? What is it about actually having the sex that makes it so much worst? If having meaningless sex with another person is hurtful to you, wouldn't you be just as hurt if they simply admitted to the desire to do so? Shadowman, you can talk about the scriptures until the cows come home, but here is what I think. We are not that far removed from the animal kingdom, and nature. Religion, society, and all of that are ways to keep us living in an organized society, and away from total chaos. I believe in God so that is not coming from an atheistic point of view. Of course we are attracted to others and lust after them for that reason. IMO some of that is strictly chemical and physical, and natures insurance that we will continue to procreate. All of those urges are not done selectively even if we make a choice not to act on them, we still feel them. It is simply to say that we are contuously fighting the urges of "nature" and of course that is not to say that we should not aspire to live on a higher level, but it is always a fight. As far as telling someone you love or are committed to you want to sleep with others, that is just plain hurtful and the motivation to do that is spiteful, and serves no purpose other than to hurt.
serial muse Posted December 26, 2007 Posted December 26, 2007 I'm not particularly interested in religious aspects of cheating or not; I'm interested in the human aspects - the choice of whether or not to choose to inflict feelings of hurt and betrayal on your partner (even if you consider those feelings to be wrong). It's ultimately the choice about what you value most (I'm talking about a situation where you still want that partner in addition to other sexual partners, not one where you've chosen to split). Granted, hurt over sexual promiscuity might be considered culturally relative, but given the way it's popped up in multiple cultures over thousands of years, I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that jealousy is every bit as naturally human as desire is. Anyway. While both wanting to do it and actually doing it are hurtful, I think there's a huge difference between a speculative action and a completed one. It's not fact yet; it's not history yet; it's not irrevocable yet. If the action doesn't yet exist, it can be diluted and altered and, ultimately, made bearable. Also, making the actual choice not to sleep with someone else, despite desires, could be considered a reinforcement of your commitment to your wife. But then, I think that obsessing about sleeping with other people is a also kind of choice, and one that does no favor to a marriage. (I think shadow is talking about something he's said to his wife, BTW.)
Author shadowofman Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 Wow, I butchered that one.......'consensus' I am a man, does my back look girly? People do always call me Mam on the phone. Anyway, this is a hypothetical to get an opinion about intent or action. Based on the scripture (I am an atheist, but can appreciate the concept behind the commandment) I believe the purpose of the scripture is to convince you that you shouldn't be thinking about these things. That you should immediately dismiss all desire at once. That you shouldn't have told or even thought about killing your daughter, Openbook. Besides all that, I have told my wife that I want to sleep with other people, men and women. Preferably not without her, but if she is not interested then so be it. I have made a moral decision not to cheat. Therefore, a wish or desire in the heart of my partner, to have sex with another person, would lead me to ask them, first of all, why? Promiscuousness and bisexuality are a part of my sexual orientation. Always have been, always will be. Then to ask how strong the temptation is (how likely do they feel it is that the Thought will become Action)? And how long have they been feeling like this? Specifically within this relationship......maybe not in the first few months, but soon thereafter and growing in intensity at a steady pace. If I am not married to my partner, then to an extent, he is a 'free agent'. He hasn't made any official, public or legal testimony or commitment to being faithful to me, so in essence, in all honesty, I cannot exert any of my Will upon him to tell him what he can or can't do. We are not officially married, but all of the committment of amarriage is there. I want to spend the rest of my life with her. 6 years into the relationship now. My fear is not that I will cheat, or even leave her, but that I will eventually openly break our monogamous contract. At which point she will leave me. I am curious as to why she hasn't left me already, knowing that I most likely will do one of the above.
Geishawhelk Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Shadowofman, thanks for clearing that up! I didn't realise your avatar was a self-portrait - I think the tatoo is amazing!! Secondly, my replies were also hypothetical, but would have been applicable to my partner, not you.... but yes, I take your points, and thanks for clarifying.... Thirdly, as a Buddhist, all this is part of our attitudes to Grasping, Clinging and Attachment... all illusory. so it's all chaff in the wind to me..... Thanks for your reply!
amaysngrace Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 How much worse is the action compared to the intent? Wanting to cheat or actually cheating? Temptation is a part of life. Acting on it is a whole other thing. So with that in mind it's much worse to actually do the deed.
Author shadowofman Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 Ah yes, but I assume from your perspective that the temptation is something to be suppressed and limited if possible. I revel in it. What if the temptation is expressed unapologetically? I have to say that I'm surprised by these answers. I thought most people's problem with open relationships is that they can't handle your partners wanting other people.
amaysngrace Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 Ah yes, but I assume from your perspective that the temptation is something to be suppressed and limited if possible. I revel in it. What if the temptation is expressed unapologetically? I have to say that I'm surprised by these answers. I thought most people's problem with open relationships is that they can't handle your partners wanting other people. I guess if it's consentual and it's a pleasure thing and if one person can't satisfy their SO and their SO needs to go somewhere else or even have multiple partners to experience new heights of pleasure but the partners okay with it then it's really no big deal. I think you'd have to be really humble to admit you alone cannot satisfy your partner's sexual urges.
Author shadowofman Posted December 27, 2007 Author Posted December 27, 2007 I would be very willing to accept that if I were in that position. Like if she was bisexual as well. I don't have a vagina or breasts so I am completely incapable of providing that need.
amaysngrace Posted December 27, 2007 Posted December 27, 2007 I would be very willing to accept that if I were in that position. Like if she was bisexual as well. I don't have a vagina or breasts so I am completely incapable of providing that need. So what you're really saying is you want to satisfy your homosexual urges? What's your wife say about it?
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