johan Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Well, here's something else to consider. Don't second-guess a decision you've already made. Don't waffle. Don't go to him with your tail between your legs, apologizing for something you felt strongly about. It's important to be more rational than you were tonight, but you weren't. That's not a crime. If your rational side concludes this isn't a big deal, then the first best solution is to let it drop. The next best, if he's upset, is to say you're sorry and be sweet to him. The worst solution is to indicate to him that you don't even respect your own emotions. Stand up for them. And try to control them better in the future. If you don't respect them, whether they are right or wrong, he isn't required to either.
Krytie TV Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 More importantly shadow, try to figure out how not to do it next time.
spookie Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Well, here's something else to consider. Don't second-guess a decision you've already made. Don't waffle. Don't go to him with your tail between your legs, apologizing for something you felt strongly about. It's important to be more rational than you were tonight, but you weren't. That's not a crime. If your rational side concludes this isn't a big deal, then the first best solution is to let it drop. The next best, if he's upset, is to say you're sorry and be sweet to him. The worst solution is to indicate to him that you don't even respect your own emotions. Stand up for them. And try to control them better in the future. If you don't respect them, whether they are right or wrong, he isn't required to either. Very insightful.
Author shadowplay Posted December 25, 2007 Author Posted December 25, 2007 (edited) Well, here's something else to consider. Don't second-guess a decision you've already made. Don't waffle. Don't go to him with your tail between your legs, apologizing for something you felt strongly about. It's important to be more rational than you were tonight, but you weren't. That's not a crime. If your rational side concludes this isn't a big deal, then the first best solution is to let it drop. The next best, if he's upset, is to say you're sorry and be sweet to him. The worst solution is to indicate to him that you don't even respect your own emotions. Stand up for them. And try to control them better in the future. If you don't respect them, whether they are right or wrong, he isn't required to either. That's a good point. But I'm not sure how I even feel because I don't know how much thought he actually put into my gift. The conversation left it ambiguous. What sense do you guys get? I suspect he may not have even gotten a gift for me yet and only decided to because I asked him about it. But then there's the possibility that he did get me the gift earlier, in which case it wouldn't be fair to be angry at him. So maybe it's just safer to assume I was wrong and he did plan a gift for me. I'm not sure why I'm so hung up on this gift thing, but I think it's because I put so much effort into planning one for him and it's obvious he barely bothered for me. I still feel that it was unfair of him not to explain to me at the time why he had to change our Christmas plans, but I think I handled that part of the conversation okay. It was a bad time to bring it up, though. I'm not sure how to address this tomorrow when I see him. Is it better to just apologize and let the whole thing go or explain why I was upset? I'm thinking it would be better to just let the whole thing drop, but it may be tricky to do that and maintain some dignity. Edited December 25, 2007 by shadowplay
Krytie TV Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 That's a good point. But I'm not sure how I even feel because I don't know how much thought he actually put into my gift. The conversation left it ambiguous. What sense do you guys get? I suspect he may not have even gotten a gift for me yet and only decided to because I asked him about it. But now you'll never know... you've already condemned him. He may have had it all planned out and you could be unfairly blaming him for something you made up in your head. You'll always wonder about this and you'll never know b/c you didn't even give him a chance. It's your first Xmas together and this will always be the memory.
Author shadowplay Posted December 25, 2007 Author Posted December 25, 2007 And what I mean with my previous post is that you really have to learn not to let societal standards get you down about your own relationship. I always need some objective measure of his feelings for me -- does he do the things society says a guy should do -- because I don't trust my own instincts.
spookie Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 (edited) I vote for apologize and let things go. You know, I think the issue here is not what you said but how you said it. Being upset about Christmas plans is fair. Being upset about the gift thing is fair too but you really should have given him the benefit of the doubt on this one as his gift wasn't even late. But when you brought up how your exes treated you.... that's when you crossed a line IMO. For some guys that's like the equivalent of your SO comparing you to their exes in bed negatively. No one wants to think about their SO with someone else... and for you to mention how they were better boyfriends... that's just incredibly hurtful. Something I'd probably have said... but nevertheless incredibly hurtful. Especially since I really think (and I think you know this) that your boyfriend loves you in one of the best ways possible and does try to make you happy. And when you were unsatisfied with his assurances that he loved you, that probably made him unhappy. Because what, exactly, more could he have said? And then when you flew off the handle toward the end of the convo... IMO in his eyes you lost what little legitimacy you originally had. Guys do not deal well with emotional females... that's just a fact of life. Especially when they feel like they've done all they could, and it wasn't enough. That just makes them feel inadequate. I know you wanted more reassurance... exactly what I would have wanted. I know you're pissed that he left like that, when all it would have taken was for him to tell you one more time he loved you, and not to worry. But sometimes you're not going to get what you want. Sometimes you'll have a stalemate. And you have to learn to let that go. That's the unimportant s!ht. Don't let it be the downfall of what you have. With this gift thing, I think he just didn't realize it'd be a big deal to you, that you'd start comparing. Cause just cause he put effort into hers doens't mean s!ht. He might have realized all the effort for something so consumeristic made for the type of relationship he did not want, actually. Edited December 25, 2007 by spookie
spookie Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 I always need some objective measure of his feelings for me -- does he do the things society says a guy should do -- because I don't trust my own instincts. Then you will never be satisfied. You really, really need to learn to have faith. It's pointless to get into a relationship if you're incapable of having faith. That's what the whole premise is based on.
johan Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 That's a good point. But I'm not sure how I even feel because I don't know how much thought he actually put into my gift. The conversation left it ambiguous. What sense do you guys get? I suspect he may not have even gotten a gift for me yet and only decided to because I asked him about it. But then there's the possibility that he did get me the gift earlier, in which case it wouldn't be fair to be angry at him. So maybe it's just safer to assume I was wrong and he did plan a gift for me. I think you'd be better off just letting it be whatever it is. You may never feel you know the truth about it, and that's no big deal. You should just think about how the rest of your relationship is and decide how this compares to the bigger picture. I'm not sure why I'm so hung up on this gift thing, but I think it's because I put so much effort into planning one for him and it's obvious he barely bothered for me. I still feel that it was unfair of him not to explain to me at the time why he had to change our Christmas plans, but I think I handled that part of the conversation okay. It was a bad time to bring it up, though. I'm not sure how to address this tomorrow when I see him. Is it better to just apologize and let the whole thing go or explain why I was upset? I'm thinking it would be better to just let the whole thing drop, but it may be tricky to do that and maintain some dignity. Tomorrow, just see how it goes. Maybe it will all be forgotten. Here's something to consider though: he's probably going to feel really guilty and self-conscious about what he got you. He may feel it's completely inadequate in your eyes. This is probably why he hates Christmas: because he feels required to "perform" with his gifts. Christmas shopping is not everyone's thing. I've grown to hate it. And I made the agreement with my family not to exchange gifts anymore. It was becoming a chore, and we don't really need any more stuff. At least not the random stuff that Christmas seems to bring. I'd rather just be together and feel relaxed.
D-Lish Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 were u drinking tonight shadow? Like the rest of us??? lol
Author shadowplay Posted December 25, 2007 Author Posted December 25, 2007 were u drinking tonight shadow? Like the rest of us??? lol Believe me, I wish I had that excuse. I'm not sure what came over me.
Legend Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Believe me, I wish I had that excuse. I'm not sure what came over me. Shadow. I command you to go to sleep now. And see what happens tomorrow.
D-Lish Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 haha. you're cute. Just take a deep breath and leave it until tomorrow.
Florida Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 (edited) Shadow-did you miss my post on page 1 about how to hint at the gift without bringing it up? I think your convo went fine about Xmas plans, he was appeasing, and open to hearing you. A solution was made. Then the gift- I can relate to going in full attack mode when you are feeling 2nd best, but I see no indication he had no gift for you. In other words, he may have already had the gift. Johan is right-don't waffle. At this point don't go and apologize for it all. But you can apologize for the accusatory tone, as you did not let him really have a chance to appease you when his back was against the wall. In an argument-you have to give room to let him correct it, but it was structured in a way that your assessment of him didn't give that option. Did you ever hear of the Dr. who observed the likelihood of couples/marriages that will last/fail to 95% prediction rates? I could post more info if you want. It's amazing, he found arguing and anger is not bad! Even yelling! What is bad is when he was receptive and open, then at a certain point-you can see he offers the olive branch. That is the part that makes the difference what you do, and if your relationship will last. Then you met him with disrespect (bringing up ex comparisons and accusing about not preparing without having the facts properly 1st). When one partner in the argument offers up the olive branch, it could be a joke when things are getting heated, or an unrelated complliment, or a placation of any kind- TAKE IT IN STRIDE AND RETURN IT EQUALLY! The difference in the fight outcome would have been different, and then his and your heart rate would go down, and the real issue could be discussed. Which was you felt slighted, and he could have fixed that by clarification. So...olive branch offer means -STOP- return in kind. The worst things to do then is: condescension/disrespect (sarcasm, belittling, accusing) because he stonewalled you after that (turned a deaf ear to get some distance to calm down) This isn't the end, and you had good points-but the delivery is everything, and being able to take his "please stop" cues are what will make the relationship thrive or die! Edited December 25, 2007 by Florida
Florida Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Oh-and I think he really loves you SP, you can tell from how he wanted to talk about what was bothering you and received your influence, by adjusting plans on the fly as you brought it up.
dunstable Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Shadow, what came over to me in the messenger conversation you quoted was what nice people you both are. I'm optimistic you will sort this out. I do have some advice that I hope may help in a practical way. I'm a really erratic present giver and I can tell you that the amount of effort I put into the gift bears NO relationship to the amount of love I feel for the recipient. It's difficult to explain briefly, but I struggle with life a lot of the time, and a lot of factors affect how much time I spend planning and shopping. This year, for various reasons, I've greatly neglected the woman who is the love of my life. In previous times, I've spent a lot more effort shopping for earlier girlfriends - did I love them more? Not at all, when I look back on it, I doubt I even loved them at all. I hope that she sees a bigger picture, where my love for her is defined by things other than Christmas gifts. I do think some of the respondents were a bit hard on you for your management of this situation - I think you have to be able to talk about your feelings, so you should not feel bad about bringing them up. You have a right to say how you feel. I hope he will acknowledge your feelings when you talk about it later in more detail. I think he will - based on the conversation you quoted, he seemed to me to have remarkable empathy. I think he was tired at the end of that conversation, and also I think he was not sure how to respond without making matters worse. Probably his breaking off the conversation to give you both time to think was a good idea. I think the test of your relationship will be whether you can discuss this issue in a civil manner, and whether you can both refrain from invalidating the feelings of the other during the discussion. But I beg you, please do not make the assumption that effort spent in choosing a present is proportional to the amount of love - if you think about it, such an equation would be ludicrous. Life cannot be encapsulated in such simple equations. Best wishes.
Kamille Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Oh my god poor guy! He can never win can he? He had just agreed to come see you so that you guys could celebrate 'your Christmas' together. I would assumed then and there that he had gotten me something. You need to recognize the moments when he is doing things for you. Ok, anyways, what's done is done. What I would suggest is that instead of texting or e-mailing you fork out the extra buck and give him a call. You will hear each other's voices, which will greatly contribute to making the conversation clearer. and ps: i'm not sure I understand how buying an i-pod is putting a lot of thought into a gift.
Ariadne Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Omg... What a difficult person: -------- ~ i'm kind of upset about something but maybe i should just bring it up to you ~ it's more just a few things that seemed kind of inconsiderate ~ i did feel kind of weird that you were hanging out with him since it seems like he had insulted me ~ the fact that you promised me you'd be with me on christmas, and then just decided suddenly to go with your family instead ~ the general feeling is a lack of consideration or something from you. ~ this whole thing is just really unfortunate ~ it feels sometimes like you don't try very hard to please me. ~ it's not the gift that's important to me at all...it's more the thought...like if you didn't get me a gift that would have really hurt me ~ i take it as a yes that you didn't plan out a gift for me and did for your ex... ~ ok, whatever ~ obvioiusly you don't want to talk, so goodnight ~ why are you angry at me? ~ you're really hurting me ------------- And I can't believe that guy is eating all this sht. Girls, take note, if you are 115 lbs and you look pretty, you can actually get a guy to eat all this sht for you. Ariadne
Jilly Bean Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 I have to agree 100% with Ariadne. Sorry, I know it is Christmas, and I am sorry for having to be so blunt, but I am honestly agog and aghast that anyone would write such things. There is so much pathology that goes into such actions, it's too long to even enumerate the issues. How any man would honestly put up with that is beyond me, though. Clearly this guy must love being crapped on, because he in NO way deserved any of that. I guess, Shadow, you should be happy that he if he consistently tolerates this kind of behavior from you, that he is pretty weak-willed, and will most likely continue to accept your mishigoss and mistreatment. Egads.
Star Gazer Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Shadow...*sigh* Reading your conversation was like reading a train wreck. It was almost painful to read. Ohhhh man shadow..... First the obvious major mis-steps on your part: comparing your relationship to anyone else's (especially to you and your exes). Trying to make YOURSELF feel better by talking to him when you KNOW he is tired, and online, and on xmas eve. There was NO WAY what you were saying could have been anything but hurtful, and on top of that it came off as really self-absorbed. And, as I've realized, people have a limited capacity for hurt before they realize you just aren't worth it. I agree with the above whole-heartedly. You must be careful with how you proceed at this point. Shadow, you slipped last night...you know that. From our perspective, your BF sounds very sweet in your conversation, but you sound whiny and passive-aggressive. In the future, I really think you should avoid having any conversations with your BF over IM...there's too much room for misunderstanding, particularly when you're as emotional as you are. If IM is necessary, wait until you're in a rational state. I agree with Kamille too, on two parts: Today, ya gotta suck it up and CALL him today. You need to hear each other's voices. And I'm also not sure how a used iPod from eBay is reflective of a "lot of effort." A few clicks, and you were done. I know you were hurting, Shadow. I'm hoping that you're with him right now and enjoying Christmas together.
Legend Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 I have to agree 100% with Ariadne. Sorry, I know it is Christmas, and I am sorry for having to be so blunt, but I am honestly agog and aghast that anyone would write such things. There is so much pathology that goes into such actions, it's too long to even enumerate the issues. How any man would honestly put up with that is beyond me, though. Clearly this guy must love being crapped on, because he in NO way deserved any of that. I guess, Shadow, you should be happy that he if he consistently tolerates this kind of behavior from you, that he is pretty weak-willed, and will most likely continue to accept your mishigoss and mistreatment. Egads. Agreed... i'm a scrooge too though so maybe we're just pessimistic today...
Ariadne Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Hi, it came off as really self-absorbed. Not only that... The guy is spending Christmas day with his family, and in order to appease her: ----------- guy: if it would please you to see me on Christmas I will make the voyage. (That is, drive all the way there, at least for 5 hours...) guy: well my coming all the way to [where you live] was proposed earlier... I would drive my parents to NY, then empty my room into my car and drive the rest of the way alone sp: where will your parents stay? guy: they are taking the bus to [where you live] tomorrow..and they will stay at home guy: or the day after, however you desire it. sp: tomorrow is fine --------------- Tomorrow is fine?! Wow... I would have told him, please, I'd make me much happier if you stay at your place with your folks and relax. Then you drive all together the next day. You'd be really tired. (Or whatever it is that is not completely exhausting for the guy to "please her") OMG Ariadne
Author shadowplay Posted December 25, 2007 Author Posted December 25, 2007 I feel like if I call him that may push him over the edge since I already sent him two emails last night. What do you guys think?
johan Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Forget all this trouble. Just decide: do you feel like talking to him? If you do then call him. If you don't then don't. Don't ask people to think for you. You can do this, shadowplay. There's no reason for your self-confidence to be so low. He loves you as much today as he did yesterday.
D-Lish Posted December 25, 2007 Posted December 25, 2007 Just keep all the drama at bay. The last 24 hours has been all about you and what you want and how you feel.... It's time to give him a break. Yes, you must apologize for your behavior, not your feelings. We can't control our feelings- but we can control our reactions... remember that. Let me get this straight- he is making his parents take a bus so he can come back to you a day earlier- just so he can make you feel better? I would never think to agree to that or ask him to do that. If you want cold hard truth here- and I assume that is why you post- you are acting spolied- and last night you were acting irrational. None of that makes you a bad person- it just means you handled things incorrectly. Okay- the reason I both give you crap and sympathize is because I have been like like that in relationships in the past. If a man lets me dictate and walk on him- I would. Being that way pushed many a good guy away from me. You probably left him angry and confused... those are the things you have to make right. DOn't beat yourself up- just recognize what sort of behaviors are destuctive and work on that. This is not a lecture... I don't want it to come off that way. Hope today is a better day.
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