burningman Posted December 15, 2007 Posted December 15, 2007 I posted the first part on 11/26 I think: So W has finally admitted to everything, and taken full responsiblity for her part. This came down on her like a ton of bricks. To recap, OM is in her office, sits next to her, and is in her chain of command. Hr (head of east coast for the co.) was at the party. He took the reoprt and buried it, and advised no one is to discuss it again, and W and OM are not to speak to each other about that night. She's written a letter to the co and our attorney has it now. I feel she needs to stay on the attorney and get the letter out to protect her job. She's in IC and I go to IC today. MC will follow. So this is progress. She has also reviewed her HR policy and one or both of them can be terminated for this, although I don't believe the co. can risk terminating her, considering the actions of mgr and HR during the night in question. She does not want to lose everything she has worked for. But she knows that I am not going to get through R knowing she works for him and they work in the same office, albeit just 2-3 days a week. I'm not going to therapy to accept this. I don't want to accept it and I don't deserve or need to. She's arguing it's already NC except for absolutely nec. work-related discussions. Sorry, this is not NC. ***************** Due to past sexual abuse, wife has been pretty much PTSD since the ONS. She has nightmares that rapist turns into Boss. She's violently shaking every day when she goes to work. She revised the letter and sent it to the attorney last week. I'm not sure if she is going to send it or not. I think she honestly is still in the A fog, even though it wasn't really an EA turned ONS by her account. Makes one wonder, huh? I honestly think she doesn't think the guy deserves to lose his job (her own guilt here). OM finally "called her into his office" this past Wed. and advised that he was scared I was going to do something (I used to work for him too) and wanted her to know he was VERY willing participant that night, but made a bad decision. She states she told him that he should be scared and walked out. Proud of her in a way, but it's not NC and she hasn't volunteered to do that either. So basically, not much has happened in terms of any progress as she is PTSD/fog. I haven't forced her do anything or given any ultimatums. I'm in wait and see mode. It's quite painful too. I've been watching the inaction for weeks now. If I wanted to, I could make one quick phone call, and get corporate HR involved and get this thing moving to improve her work environment. But I'm not going to do it. She's been to IC once, we've been to MC twice. I've been to IC twice and was told I'm solid (this helped). She avoided IC because she was afraid to disappoint her therapist. The MC said to me, in front of WS, "I know how difficult it is sit there on the sidelines and think you're watching someone you love self-destruct." By her account, she's made huge strides by going to IC and revising the letter. By my account, it's been 6 weeks since d-day and nothing has changed. She's so f'd up right now.... And I'm feeling the ambivalence starting to creep in on me. This might be a good thing.
Ronni_W Posted December 15, 2007 Posted December 15, 2007 I'm not going to therapy to accept this. I don't want to accept it and I don't deserve or need to. May I ask what it is you ARE going to therapy for? Am I reading too much into your post, or would you prefer to just be the one who, from now on, gets to tell your wife what to do (or what you would like her to do) so that you can feel...what? Kind of like you want to be seen as acting noble (empathizing her PTSD/fog), but there's also a vindictive, sort of self-righteous undercurrent, isn't there? You definitely do deserve to feel happy and trusting in your relationship...I'm just wondering on the best attitude you could have, to regain that -- if that is indeed your goal(?)
whichwayisup Posted December 15, 2007 Posted December 15, 2007 Due to past sexual abuse, wife has been pretty much PTSD since the ONS. She has nightmares that rapist turns into Boss. She's violently shaking every day when she goes to work. This is a BIG reason why she needs to leave and start over somewhere else. She'll NEVER fully recover, neither will you, if she stays at that job. I hope with counselling she can see that the only real choice is for her to leave and find another job.
Author burningman Posted December 15, 2007 Author Posted December 15, 2007 Ronni: sorry for the confusion. What I meant was I'm not going to go pay $ to have someone convince me that "it's ok for your wife to keep working there with him, they can still be friends, you're overreacting." that's all. I had a long thread a few weeks ago that brought up much debate about any BS forcing any WS to do anything at all. Like NC, quit job, check in at 2pm etc, etc. This was back in the heat of disclosure period. I've since decided she has to make her own decisions. There's no self righteousness here on my part. My comment on making one phone call is my protectiveness and my own need to turn crisis into control. I see what going in there every day is doing to her. It's killing her. But again, it's not my job. It's hard though to let someone do this to themselves. I think she's starting to get it in some ways, but she's a totally passive non-conflict person and she's got a mess on her hands. She can go to corporate and see if HR will help clean it up (and they probably will) or she can leave, or both, or she can end up in a breakdown. I don't see many other scenarios playing out. WWayisup nailed it.
Mr. Lucky Posted December 16, 2007 Posted December 16, 2007 I think she's starting to get it in some ways, but she's a totally passive non-conflict person and she's got a mess on her hands. She can go to corporate and see if HR will help clean it up (and they probably will) or she can leave, or both, or she can end up in a breakdown. I don't see many other scenarios playing out. Having followed your other thread, why on earth are YOU allowing this mess to continue to be the dominant factor in your lives? It's not that hard - she slept with her boss. If she really wants to work on her relationship with you, she'd quit her job tomorrow and put all this "file a grievance, write a letter, talk to HR" smokescreen behind her. If she doesn't want to do that, your sh*t should be packed up and in the trunck of your car. You're getting screwed twice in this deal - once when she cheated on you and every day thereafter when you have your face rubbed in this dirt. How much longer are you going to let this go on ? The choices seem easily defined, but maybe that's just me... Mr. Lucky
Author burningman Posted December 16, 2007 Author Posted December 16, 2007 Mr Lucky... I've never been raped or abused. Have you? Your opinion on that issue doesn't doesn't make the issue easier... just more relevant.
Mr. Lucky Posted December 16, 2007 Posted December 16, 2007 Mr Lucky... I've never been raped or abused. Have you? No burningman, I've never been raped or abused. What does that have to do with your wife's affair? Mr. Lucky
Author burningman Posted December 16, 2007 Author Posted December 16, 2007 Mr lucky, unfortunately it has EVERYTHING to do w/ my WS ONS. Think about it, her ONS had two key components: "abuse of power" by her boss and "sexual nature." While she wasn't technically sexually abused in this case, "her perception" is from the angle of a victim because of the power issue. It also has everything to do with why she is having problems taking any action w/ HR. We can probably all agree that a large percentage of WS betrayal is driven by self esteem issues. This is why I am trying to have patience and let her sort it out. Of course it's painful for me, but this issue is WAY F'ING BIGGER than the ONS. It's about her history. It's about why it happened. I found this in another thread. It summarizes what happens to people after rape/abuse if it goes untreated, unresolved. I've talked to rape counselors who have confirmed every bit of it. The abused person can compartmentalize (and don't forget denial) their abuse forever if they can get away with it. I would alos add to this that they do not have the skills that non-abused people have to recognize danger, or threatening situations. You might even be able to throw in the old abused housewife thing where people re-create their scenario thinking they can control it this time around. Some common vulnerablities of sex abuse victims: 1) Low self esteem/sense of worthlessness. For those who were repeatedly abused they perceive their only value in having sex or being used for sex. They have a hard time seeing themselves beyond this. Often they cannot accept compliments, cannot accept loving relationship is because they don't feel worthy of being loved. 2) Disassociate. Victims learn both in the beginning of being abused then later as a coping mechanism to disassociate themselves from the abuse from their attacker. During the abuse the victim will learn to pick a spot on the ceiling or wall and focus on it until the abuse was over. After the abuse is over they learn to disassociate the every day person from the person abused. It allows them to seperate the pain of abuse from the everyday life. 3) Minimizing. Abuse victims learn to minimize the abuse. After all if they convince themselves its not abuse then they are not victims...who wants to be a victim. Or if they convince themselves the abuse wasn't all that bad then don't feel the urgency to face it to deal with it. 4) Compartmentalize. Abuse victims learn to compartmentalize things. If they store painful memories in the far reaches of their mind then don't have to live with it constantly. The memories are still there unlike suppressing or repressing memories. 5) Secrecy. Abuse victims learn real early you don't tell. Often a skilled (word used loosely) predator can tell which children will or won't tell. And of course they go after the child they think won't tell. In closer relationships where the abuser is a someone known to the victim they rely on pressure and manipulating the victim into silence. They may say things like be quiet you don't want to people to know you did this or that. They may imply some type of harm will come to the victim and in some cases outright threaten the victim should they tell. 6) Self blaming. This comes in many forms. The abuser themselves while try and convince their victim they "wanted it" or they "enjoyed it". The victim might have a physical reaction to the abuse. They will say well if I felt something if I responded then I must have wanted it in someway. Finally society will project blame....good girls don't do that. For boys straight boys don't do that and so on. 7) Lack of empathy. Not surprising that if you learn to ignore your own abuse then you won't be very aware of other persons pains. 8) Distorted sexuality. Sex becomes something that is based on control not on love and pleasure. The victim sees sex a way to get "secondary gains". If I submit to this then I will be liked, loved or even just left alone. They see sex as unpleasant, as hurtful as being less of significance. In short they take those skills of minimizing, disassociation and apply it to their sexuality. Sex is less about pleasure and more about who is the boss. Those are just some of the many ways sex abuse impacts its victim. How does that relate to adultery? Well first and foremost we know many WSs had low self esteem. They felt unloved, they felt worthless. We also know that WSs compartmentalize, minimize, disassociate themselves from the fantasy of their affair and their every day life.
Author burningman Posted December 16, 2007 Author Posted December 16, 2007 Mr Lucky, I would also add that she was raped by her boyfriend at 14, and she never told anyone, immediately went down the denial road because her parents were divorcing at the same time. As a result, it reinforced the abandonment issue. Makes for a lethal cocktail. So in the back of her head, she's always had these thoughts that she didn't deserve me and I'd probably leave her anyway. I've sidetabled the ONS for now. It's symptomatic. If she can get this sorted out, I may find I've got a better woman than I knew to begin with. If she can't get it sorted out, well then she'll probably live a sad, miserable life by herself. I guess this is what got me back her to loveshack. The frustration is killing me. Time feels like my friend and my enemy. I have to actually put my pain aside for now and deal with it my own. She doesn't have the capacity to help me right now. But she has to re-learn the tools that were taken away from her.
Mr. Lucky Posted December 16, 2007 Posted December 16, 2007 Burningman, I would guess that every WS has their own history, pathology and reasons. Still doesn't make it right or, in my book, forgivable. Having said that, you seem like an incredibly kind and empathetic person. I wish you well and hope things work out for you. Just be careful that your nature doesn't enable your wife to act out futher. Would you be understanding of another "episode" ??? Mr. Lucky
Author burningman Posted December 16, 2007 Author Posted December 16, 2007 Mr Lucky, I definitely know where you are coming from. I'm willing to let her try to get this history resolved. However, I'm still holding her accountable for her actions. If she can even climb out of this hole, she'll get a second and last chance. I know my options here. ** If you're a mechanic and someone steals all of your tools, well, you've got find a way to get more tools, or you'll be a broke down mechanic, or you'll be something else you don't want to be. Right now she's a broke down mechanic and someone she doesn't want to be.
Cobra_X30 Posted December 17, 2007 Posted December 17, 2007 Mr Lucky, I definitely know where you are coming from. I'm willing to let her try to get this history resolved. However, I'm still holding her accountable for her actions. If she can even climb out of this hole, she'll get a second and last chance. I know my options here. ** If you're a mechanic and someone steals all of your tools, well, you've got find a way to get more tools, or you'll be a broke down mechanic, or you'll be something else you don't want to be. Right now she's a broke down mechanic and someone she doesn't want to be. Hey BM, I just want to say I think you are going about this the right way.
Author burningman Posted December 17, 2007 Author Posted December 17, 2007 Cobra, I was looking for your response. During the disclosure phase I didn't have all of the info and I relied on this forum to help me get there. Now I have insight as to why this has occured. It's changed everything. I needed you all to keep pushing me at that time. Now I think I have info that might help others, so I'm back. Posters on this site all "feel" the same way about being betrayed, but if we are unable to understand "why" it happens, we've not acomplished much. We see the obvious, such as low self esteem, low self worth, boredom etc. These are typically symptoms of a bigger/deeper issue. Understanding this for BS is crutial in building our own self awareness. * Thank you.
Cobra_X30 Posted December 17, 2007 Posted December 17, 2007 Cobra, I was looking for your response. During the disclosure phase I didn't have all of the info and I relied on this forum to help me get there. Now I have insight as to why this has occured. It's changed everything. I needed you all to keep pushing me at that time. Now I think I have info that might help others, so I'm back. Posters on this site all "feel" the same way about being betrayed, but if we are unable to understand "why" it happens, we've not acomplished much. We see the obvious, such as low self esteem, low self worth, boredom etc. These are typically symptoms of a bigger/deeper issue. Understanding this for BS is crutial in building our own self awareness. Thank you. Well, I think your wife is different from most others. See, with your wife I'd say the "why" means alot more, than for example someone whose wife had an ongoing affair. The why is most important to provide closure... or something to grab onto. At least the why provides you a start at which to begin working on things. Besides, I dont really see any large indications that your wife wanted to leave you. However, I can say that men in positions of power can be highly attractive to women. Point is... I think she will eventually pull herself together. She may need some kind of external motivation, and hopefully your MC can do this.
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