Digging out of my own sh*thole

[eskimojoe]

It's been a month and a half since my wife told me she had decided to stop emotionally investing in the relationship and invoked "the agreement" that basically said I had to leave because of what I did.

 

We're married 8 years with two great little girls and I'll admit that I'm the main culprit, BIG TIME. I went to a hooker three times 6 years ago. I was a foolish do-gooder preacher's kid who thought he didn't want to miss out on something. It turned out to be very disappointing and I never went back. I did become obsessive about downloading p0rn and excessive m0nkey slapping. I tried some therapy around some parental/childhood anger issues and thought I had resolved it. Not really. One night I got caught and realized I couldn't control this at all. I got myself into a weekly program, found a new counselor on addictions and a few weeks later fessed up to the hookers. She was 7 months pregnant at the time with our second child when I told her about the hookers. She was shattered and almost suicidal, but still managed to pull it together for one meeting with my counselor.

 

During this crisis point, we had this one meeting with my counselor where my DW laid down "the agreement".

• No lying to each other.
  
• No p*rn in the house.
  
• No other s*x partners.
  
• No one else takes care of the girls without the other person knowing.
  
• I had to work my program and go to my counselor.

Any party (me or her) who breaks it had to take the initiative to leave. That's the only marriage counselling type meeting we had.

 

Since then, I've been almost clean. I managed to be there for the birth. And no w@nking except in Jan07 and Sep07. Yeah, cold turkey from Sep '05 to Jan '07 and then until Sep '07. And I kept away from p0rn except for reading racy back covers of naughty novels in 2006 and a 3 week period of occasional downloading just this past September. That was my downfall. I didn't get caught and she didn't ask me outright. But we had this bedtime chat about the risks of resuming sex again and I reluctantly brought out I had crashed in September. I suppose the way she had to tease the details out of me did nothing for her trust levels. She just flipped and waited two weeks until I had finished a massive work project and then invoked "the agreement".

 

I couldn't back out the agreement that I had to leave and I know if I go back on my word here, it's not a good thing. One of the guys from my program practically yelled at me 2 hours to bring me back down to earth on that point. But she started talking the details of the separation, living arrangements, custody, selling property, child support, finalising taxes and she was sounding very crisp and permanent about it. She says she's lost trust that I can ever change. She can't believe I would disrespect her and the family by bringing pr0n in again and we've tried everything and nothing we've tried has worked.

 

I'm a bloody mess and it took me weeks for the reality of it to sink in. We had a chat about separation details and it went well, probably because I was still numb and just wanted to make her happy hoping things would change. We had a meeting about details and hashed out semi-detailed solution about living arrangements and child custody. And there's a joint todo list on properties, taxes, research with the local social services. I've moved into the bedroom across the hall and I don't move out until 24 January 2008. I totally lost it and had to get time off work.

 

Now we're in limbo playing happy family until then. We take the girls to the amusement park, ice skating, shopping, swimming lessons together. Lots of photos and videos of happy family. We have occasional chats where she admits to the (small) things she could have done that might have made a difference. I have a hard time biting my tongue, but I try not to jump down her throat for that. But jeez, we have so much knowledge about what we could have done and she doesn't want to use any of it.

 

She doesn't want to do marriage counseling because she thinks all they want to do is to "get us back together". She would prefer to go to a mediator to discuss the details of the separation. I actually booked a meeting to see a counselor about the separation and she's reluctant to go because it's a counselor, not a mediator. I told her I was reluctant to go to a mediator about separation because I couldn't go and negotiate in good faith. I do not want to do this. I told her there were things she needed to know about what has happened since Sept that might make a difference. I had an undeniable spiritual experience and it took away the last massive rock of anger I had against my folks and my childhood. It was the main reason that creates all the insecurities in my head that make me run for the drug and it's gone. Poof. Gone. I didn't tell her and all she said was she'd be willing to listen, but would that change anything about January 24. I said no it wouldn't, but it was late, late in the evening and I didn't want to start anything if we both didn't have fresh brains.

 

Today, I went out and bought Love Must Be Tough as well as reading other posts here. I'm reading and thinking about what I want in my life, for the first time and wondering, why should I be the one booking the separation mediation sessions?

 

I really love my wife and want to make this work for us and for the kids. I'm in it bad, but I just don't know if it's salvageable or not.

 

I don't know what's left and right anymore. HELP!!!

 

eskimojoe

[Gunny376]

Its a trust issue ~ and you've lost her trust ~ something that is very hard to get back with anyone once lost.

 

But from what I'm reading? Your wife has issues about sex.

 

That and a lot of ignorance about sex and about what drives it.

 

Men have 10X's the testerone that women have. Testerone is what drives the sex drive. On a bell curve? Women (generally speaking) are about 3 before age 23, an 6 to 8 (on a scale of 1 to 10) at age of 23 and its all downhill from there.

 

Men are visual women aren't. Hugh Heifiner's attempt to publish "Playgirl" failed because women are sexually aroused by the visual images of naked men.

 

This all has to do with the wiring of men's and women's brains.

 

Now you take basic human behavior, pyschology, natural brain pathology and mix in cultural, societial, and religious conditioning and you've got yourself one hell of a mess?

 

The way I see it? Your wife has a low sex drive, and expects you to be the same? She's got her house, her furnishings for the house, her 2.4 children, and you on the hook to foot the bill? And from the sound of it? She's a religious zealot ~ and you know what that means? No sex for "Satan" ~ and guess who "Satan" is?

 

Women such as this slay me? They don't care about sex for themselves, get PO'd if their husbands go outside the marriage, PO'd if the husband has a porn collection, and PO'd if their husband takes "matters into their own hands?"

 

I don't know so much as you've got a porn addiction so much as your just frustrated from lack of sexual intimacy?

 

Time to leave the convent there Slick ~ and go find yourself a real woman that has a healthy and realistic attitude about sex!

[smokiejjj]

From what I have read your wife has to realize that you will not be able to stay away from porn. It is an unrealistic expectation. If she can't handle that then that is her decision. You can't keep making promises you can't keep. For some men ( like myself ) porn is a very, very strong addiction. I can stay away from it sometimes but other times I cannot. It does not consume my life and I can go for weeks without it but sometimes you are just a man and check it out ! Like if my wife goes away for a week, it is basically a zero chance I will stay away from porn. But if we go on vacation for a week and are together there is 100 percent chance I stay away from it.

[eskimojoe]

Its a trust issue ~ and you've lost her trust ~ something that is very hard to get back with anyone once lost.

 

I agree it's a trust issue and complicated. We were getting better for a while. Inside, I had been pretty much able to deal with the emotional issues driving my compulsive need for hours and hours and hours of visual stimulation. Externally, we had just bought a new house together and a new bed together back in June. We just never talked about exactly how I was travelling in my battle.

 

But from what I'm reading? Your wife has issues about sex.

One day, we were cuddling in bed when she turned to me in tears and said "How do you know you won't go back out there is we make love?" I didn't have an answer. I decided that being up front with having had a look for the first time in two years and she's decided to pull the plug on the whole thing. She's really angry that I hid it from her "just like all the times before"; she accuses me of lying. So now, it's like looking at porn gets her riled up as if I've slept with another woman. So that's why I think I gotta keep myself away from looking at this stuff.

 

That and a lot of ignorance about sex and about what drives it.

The strange thing is when I met her, she had her own little collection of erotica and even I'll say it was HOT. She was pretty switched on in bed. Not multi, but it was really good. When we were dating, she tried to get into the stuff I was bringing home, but it's hard to find stuff that both men and women like. Eventually, she ditched all her erotica and told me so. It's only now I can see that she was trying to tell me something.

 

 

Now you take basic human behavior, pyschology, natural brain pathology and mix in cultural, societial, and religious conditioning and you've got yourself one hell of a mess?

 

The way I see it? Your wife has a low sex drive, and expects you to be the same? She's got her house, her furnishings for the house, her 2.4 children, and you on the hook to foot the bill? And from the sound of it? She's a religious zealot ~ and you know what that means? No sex for "Satan" ~ and guess who "Satan" is?

Yeah, the religious part definitely confuses things. I'm trying to be more spiritual, but I don't think that precludes expressing a healthy sexuality. But now she's like deer caught in the headlights on anything sexual and I'm scared of talking to her about it because it just brings up too much of the past.

 

Now she wants to separate with no clear notion of whether it's a trial or not. She keeps telling me she's trying hard to not give mixed signals about the separation, but last night, she was hand decorating christmas tree balls with glitter and made a matching pair for me and her. One with my name. One with her name. Is this mind games? WTF? Does she really want to lead separate lives forever?

 

Time to leave the convent there Slick ~ and go find yourself a real woman that has a healthy and realistic attitude about sex!

It's definitely seems like a bloody convent around here. I'm just so afraid to challenge anything anymore. I've read some of the posts from ilmw's story, and the "man-up" theme helps me in this situation. But I'm scared on whether it's appropriate given the trust base is so low? ARGGGHHH!!! I'm going nuts on this one. There's gotta be a way?

 

What I want is to know is WHO I GOTTA BE be to pull this marriage back. What I was like before wasn't working. I need a new brain and a new heart. My counselor, a woman, seems to think that if I figure that out and just do it, she'll come running back.

[LakesideDream]

This is a very sad and at the same time disturbing thread. Obviously your wife has some serious sexual hangups. She also has heavy duty control "issues". You are literally deer in the headlights afraid of her reactions to the realitys of your life and the relationship you share. Over time, she may have changed into a completely different person than the one you married.

 

Agreements made far in advance. Withholding intamicy over long periods of time. All sounds very cold and calculating to me. I'm sure she believes that shes justified, and that logic and the man upstairs are on her side. I'm not so sure. Nothing is as fluid, and variable as a relationship between a man and a woman. Trying to compartmentalize life is bound to be fraught with failure.

 

I'm sure she has her reasons. I'm equally sure that she truely believes she right. This is just more sever than a person expects to hear about. `

 

The only advise I can offer is to do your best. At home, at work, with your kids... in your marriage. Think about what you are doing before you do it. You can't live everyday worrying whether a word, sentence, or even a look will cause a negative reaction in your wife. Try to stop acting like a rat running a maze and maybe you will find a way out.

 

Good Luck,

[Trimmer]

Since then, I've been almost clean. I managed to be there for the birth. And no w@nking except in Jan07 and Sep07. Yeah, cold turkey from Sep '05 to Jan '07 and then until Sep '07.

 

But we had this bedtime chat about the risks of resuming sex again and I reluctantly brought out I had crashed in September.

May I clarify? With the exception of Jan '07 and Sep '07, you didn't masturbate since Sept 2005? Over two years?

 

And from your comment about "risks of resuming sex again", does that mean that you were not having sex together in that period either?

 

Wow.

 

You say "Since then, I've been almost clean." Your issues seem to revolve primarily around sex, and you titled your thread "digging out of my own sh*thole." Is sex dirty?

 

Now I'll admit I don't know a lot about sex/porn addiction, but is it like alcohol, where once you decide you have the problem, you have to go cold turkey, and reject any participation at all (in sex, at least?)

 

I agree that your wife seems to be at least as tangled up in "issues" as you...

[eskimojoe]

Thanks lakeside, smokie, gunny and trimmer for actually reading what I wrote. It was very, VERY long.

 

May I clarify? With the exception of Jan '07 and Sep '07, you didn't masturbate since Sept 2005? Over two years?

 

And from your comment about "risks of resuming sex again", does that mean that you were not having sex together in that period either?

 

Wow.

 

Yes. Essentially, I've masturbated 6 times in two years, most of it in Sept this year. I had a bit of playing the edge while masturbating to test control, but if you count ejaculations, very few and no sex for about two years. It's been pretty hard , but I was amazed to discover my balls didn't explode. Cold turkey lets my mind focus on other deep emotional issues...and there are many. I know I don't learn things very well when I'm not "sober", ie. drugging myself on dopamine, the hormone the body produces during an orgasm or even an extended internet porn session.

 

You say "Since then, I've been almost clean." Your issues seem to revolve primarily around sex, and you titled your thread "digging out of my own sh*thole." Is sex dirty?

I'm not sure. I don't think so. I think sex is precious and not to be squandered. But I'll admit it might be simplistic. I don't have a sophisticated view on it. Not sure if I need to. I don't think my DW thinks so either. She wasn't shy when we first met. She most likely has become anti-porn because of the trust issues raised by my addiction.

 

Now I'll admit I don't know a lot about sex/porn addiction, but is it like alcohol, where once you decide you have the problem, you have to go cold turkey, and reject any participation at all (in sex, at least?)

Yes. That is one approach and it seems to have worked for me. It's a twelve-step base. Important clarification: My program defines sobriety as no sex with self or someone who isn't my spouse (ie. hetero marriage). I'm not here to debate other forms of marriage. I'm open-minded, but I'm going to be selfish about things and focus on my situation. I'm hetero and my partner is a woman (is she ever!). No sex for two years is probably due to bad communication on both sides.

 

I agree that your wife seems to be at least as tangled up in "issues" as you...

 

She does go to a support program for people affected by sex addiction. And I'm grateful for that. Her "issues" are different and I try to keep out of how she's dealing with it.

 

Like I said, I'm trying to figure out what I gotta be to pull this marriage out of the gurgler. It's a sh*thole because I'm willing to take responsibility for my past emotional crap that got me where I was. But I am who I am and we are where we are. She wants a separation.

 

Where to now?

[Gunny376]

Breath slowly! Take it slow, and one day at a time!

[eskimojoe]

Breath slowly! Take it slow, and one day at a time!

 

Gunny, I haven't been on this forum very long, but I'm not accustomed to seeing short replies from you. ;)

 

Yeah. One day at a time. Today, I forgot to tell her I had booked a session with my counselor tomorrow and it clashed with one she wanted to have with her counselor (different person). We had a fight about how I drive her crazy that I NEVER tell her things. It was a stupid fight. The receptionist called her to ask if she could move it back 30 minutes and that caused the booking clash because I would not be able to look after the kids. She had told the receptionist "shouldn't be a problem but I'll double check with my husband". After I told her about the clash, she didn't want to call the "dragon lady receptionist" again to change her mind. She's intimidated by her. WTF? The doctor is inconveniencing HER and she won't call back to say no? AARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!

 

Just venting. Part of me wants to tell her to pull things up. The other part of me says, just lay low. I already wrote a note saying I should have told her about my appt. I'm trying own my side of the fence, but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm owning TOO MUCH.

 

esky

[tommyr]

Yes. Essentially, I've masturbated 6 times in two years, most of it in Sept this year. I had a bit of playing the edge while masturbating to test control, but if you count ejaculations, very few and no sex for about two years.

 

This is so extremely bizarre I just have a hard time believing. So you signed a contract to give up sex, masturbation, and porn for an indefinite period of time (years?) until your wife decides you can resume having sex? Your counselor agrees this is a good solution? WTF?!!!

 

I would strongly advise you to get a new counselor - someone whose treatment advice has at least some basis in reality.

 

BTW, I have been sober 19+ years in a 12 step fellowship so I am no stranger to recovery, treatment, counseling.

[sedgwick]

i have never understood why women care about porn. i'm a woman and i love porn! the fact that there are women who freak out over it kind of baffles me.

 

hookers, another story altogether.

[eskimojoe]

i have never understood why women care about porn. i'm a woman and i love porn! the fact that there are women who freak out over it kind of baffles me.

 

hookers, another story altogether.

 

Yeah...I wonder if it would have been different if the hookers weren't involved. And maybe it would have been different if even after we'd had fantastic sex, I'd still want more but she couldn't. And then I spend hours and hours in front of a screen surfing for porn while she was sleeping. After a while she started wondering.

 

It's not what you look at, it's how you look at it.