Had a visitor today...

[noforgiveness]

The only thing I can add to serial muse's excellent post is that, I know you think you do, I know you believe you do, but YOU DON'T KNOW what she's saying to him.

 

I find it terribly hard to believe he stays in such a situation without being offered some kind of hope.

He's offered lots of hope. THEY as a couple are hosting a christmas party. They s a couple are doing an appetizer progressive dinner thing. Sorry she is not telling you the truth. She would not be doing these things with her husband if she was telling him the truth. Her actions and carrying on the happy entertaining couple speak very loudly.

[Owl]

OK...you're probably not going to like my view on things.

 

He's with her because he loves her. PERIOD. Very simple to understand. He loves her 'as much as you do'...only with the added years of LIVING that love with her that you don't have.

 

You're sitting her in pain, letting yourself go through he!! due to a week's worth of NC. After what? A three year, part time, well-hidden, limited relationship with her. What do you think HE'S willing to do, trying to defend and save a much longer, full-blown, in the light of day marriage to her????? One that's got all the history, the kids, and everything else going with it? Why in the heck would you be surprised that he's still fighting for it, when you're sitting here fighting just as hard to save your relationship here without all that history and base behind it??? You say you're willing to do whatever it takes for her...how can you doubt her husband would do any less?

 

And here's the thing. The odds are, he's getting professional counseling that's teaching him all about how affairs work. Just like the advice you're getting here. He's learned how affairs nearly always work out. He's learned about her addiction to the affair, he's learned what steps he should be taking to get the affair to end, and to reconcile his marriage. In short, he's getting the "BS side" of the same advice I and others have been giving you.

 

He knows he's got to push for this NC. He knows that he's got to help her get out of the "fog" created by her relationship with you so that she'll begin seeing her marriage in a normal light, instead of the clouded vision she's had of it since she started her affair with you.

 

He knows that his marriage and his family IS saveable...if he takes the right steps, and if he works the right plan, and if he can get the chance for his wife to get her head out of "affair-land" and back into reality.

 

None of this should surprise you, given all the advice you've been given on this site...mostly by a number of BS's, just like myself.

 

I'm going to give you a really harsh reality here...I don't mean it to hurt, but there's no way to sugar-coat this.

 

The sooner that you get out of the picture here, the sooner she'll be able to begin recovering her family and her marriage. As long as you remain an "option" for her, the pain for her and her family is going to go on and on and on.

 

The purpose of NC from the BS's side is to help their WS to 'get over' the affair, the addiction to the OP, and to help them to see that the BS has been there the whole time for them. Bluntly, the goal is to get you out of the picture so that she can start thinking clearly again, for the first time in 3 1/2 years.

 

I'm speaking from personal experience. These are exactly the steps and reasons for all the SAME actions I took during my wife's affair.

 

Don't be surprised that he's fighting for his marriage. There's nothing surprising about it. He knows that his marriage stands a good chance of recovering from this. The reality is, it stands a much better chance of recovering from her affair than her marriage to you would have had.

 

I told my wife the same thing. It wasn't that she was trying to 'run away from me'. She was unhappy...but the reality was, it was herself and her actions that she was unhappy with. Had she left me for him, those same 'problems' would have gone with her. And after the newness of the affair wore off, she would have been right back to being just as unhappy.

 

So instead of leaving, she stayed...and fixed the issues that made her unhappy. Like I've said, we're three years into a much better marriage than before.

 

Sorry if this hurts, and don't take it as a personal attack. Honestly, its the brutal reality of these things. Use it as a reality check, so that you can start working on your own recovery, friend.

[stampdaddy]

No need to apologize, Owl.. I do have an issue with this whole "addiction thing".. Her counselor has been trying to get her to see that she is "just addicted" to me, the affair, whatever.. People here are trying to say that I am "addicted".. (I can't say that everybody is wrong, cause I'd sound like an addict)

BUT what the hell, I mean we have been together, day after day for a very long time. We have had our very own doses of reality. (of course not as much as them, but...) But, it all hasnt been about shackin' up, Lunch dates in a cozy booth, etc I just don't understand why in the world people can refer to an addiction in our case. I am probably not giving enough value to the possibility, but I just don't buy it. Sure, I am addicted to her, I am addicted to loving her and I hope to always be: IN THE RIGHT WAYS..

There is no arguement regarding the NC, because MY answer will come from this and I will either have her OR I won't. And I am trying to find away to hold on to that....

[stampdaddy]

Oh, and OWL, your W was chasing after a guy that she had NEVER met... I feel that I have proven to be a lot more that an email account to my beautiful girl.. No offense, please don't take any as I REALLY appreciate everything you have said to me....

[reboot]

They use the word "addiction" because of the chemicals your brain releases when you're together. Dopamine, adrenalin, etc. It is very much like a drug addiction, it's not just some cutesy way of putting down your feelings.

[norajane]

We have had our very own doses of reality. (of course not as much as them, but...) But, it all hasnt been about shackin' up, Lunch dates in a cozy booth, etc

 

You do not, however, manage a household together, pay bills together, host events together, see family and friends together, get involved in each other's work lives, or raise children together - you've never even seen her with her children, have you? That's a huge part of her life and reality that you never see and do not take part in.

 

The 'addiction' is to the private time you have together, outside of the 'real world' that she inhabits the rest of the time. That ability to escape the pressure and responsibilities of their daily lives is very much why people become addicted to drugs and alcohol - and affairs.

[stampdaddy]

You do not, however, manage a household together, pay bills together, host events together, see family and friends together, get involved in each other's work lives, or raise children together - you've never even seen her with her children, have you? That's a huge part of her life and reality that you never see and do not take part in.

 

The 'addiction' is to the private time you have together, outside of the 'real world' that she inhabits the rest of the time. That ability to escape the pressure and responsibilities of their daily lives is very much why people become addicted to drugs and alcohol - and affairs.

Well, to be honest, we have "managed" to buy this house for ME, but she was part of the process.. I pay the bills, yes, but she helped me with that.. She was VERY involved with my work life, in fact, even worked with me for a year... I have heard a lot of her involvement with her children over the phone, helped her keep her calendar straight (who's supposed to be when/where etc...) AND NJ, I have been very "involved" in their lives, but I dont expect anyone to understand and NO I am NOT saying it's anywhere close, would never do that, BUT, it was alot more REAL, even on a dday to day basis than anyone might be able to imagine...

[reboot]

You've been married, with children. Who are you trying to convince? You know it's not the same thing just like we do.

[whichwayisup]

BUT, it was alot more REAL,

 

Yes, to you, but to her it was a double life to an extent. She got ALL of you, and you only got snippets from her. You created MORE, she still went on to live her double life.

 

The children thing, well, you were involved, but it was completely one sided. Good intentions on your behalf, but still quite inappropriate due to the cirumstances.

[stampdaddy]

You've been married, with children. Who are you trying to convince? You know it's not the same thing just like we do.

Yes sir... That's why "I" know what everybody is trying to get across to me.. While not close to the same, not too awfully far from it either...

 

What happens when a MW doesnt want to even hear anything about this "addiction", and fights it off? When this person crawls up in her bed and reads a letter, or a poem from OM? What happens when just about any room in her house has reminders of OM right there, front and center, including her Christmas tree... What happens when those 30/60/90 days goes by?

 

just need help here.

 

Thanks

[Owl]

I get what you're saying, SD.

 

BUT...the dynamics don't change between your situation and mine. I've read tons of books, and I've been posting advice on two boards for about three years. I've seen TONS of situations...and contrary to what most people want to hear, they're rarely different.

 

But here's the thing...there's no PRESSURE between the two of you, even when you attempt to do the day to day things.

 

She helped you pay the bills...but was she stressed out over how the bills got paid because she wanted to make sure that there was enough left over to cover getting her car fixed, or the kids new school clothes? Nope...because that decision didn't affect HER life.

 

She helped you get the house...but did the two of you have a major disagreemant over the cost, or location? Was she worried about what the school district was like for when she brought the kids over? Maybe...but even then, it wasn't a 'stress right now' thing...because the kids coming over was still hypothetical.

 

The thing is...she never RELIED on you to do these things...to support her AT THAT TIME. Have you had to help nurse her through a cold/fever through the night? Have you had to wash her dirty clothes? Has she had to live with you, and pick up your dirty clothes, and keep reminding you to put your shoes in the closet?

 

There is a LOT more to that day to day interaction than most people think about. Unless you've lived with her for an extended time...you don't have that 'day to day basis'. Your relationship has been a FANTASY...because its had very little true reality injected into it. Other than the stress of maintaining the fictions for her husband.

 

On the addiction...it IS an addiction. Make no mistake. You might not like it being phrased like that...but that's what it is. Go pick up some books and verify what I'm talking about. Try chapter 3 of "The Five Love Languages". Or "Surviving an Affair"...or "His Needs/Her Needs".

 

You've heard it from counselors, and you've heard it here. It doesn't sound pretty...but the reality is...its not.

[reboot]

What happens when those 30/60/90 days goes by?

 

just need help here.

 

Thanks

What happens when the next thing you hear from her is a brief note signed by her and her husband asking you not to ever contact her again?

 

 

 

*ouch*

 

Sorry. But hold on to that feeling you just got in the pit of your stomach. Stop romanticizing so much and get your head straight. Look out for yourself. You are not in control of this. She is. All you can do is wait or move on. I'm not sure what else we can tell you.

[Owl]

OK...here's what will happen.

 

Her husband is going to insist at first that she get rid of all those reminders.

 

She'll get rid of most of them, but keep some hidden that her husband won't know about. She'll pull them out when she can, and think of you.

 

For a while.

 

Then, as her addiction to you fades, her perception of her relationship to you will change. As her love for her husband resumes its place in the front of her mind, she'll start asking herself..."What was I thinking? I love this man!". She'll also start feeling guilty about those reminders.

 

Eventually, she'll wean herself off of looking at them, because doing so will remind her of her AFFAIR...and she'll feel guilty about it. It won't give her pleasant memories...instead, she'll think about that BETRAYAL of her husband.

 

She'll end up getting rid of them herself, in time.

 

She'll end up viewing her relationship with you as a major mistake, instead of a missed opportunity.

 

She'll find herself amazed at how her relationship with her husband has changed after the affair. She'll be astounded at how much love she'll feel for him again. She might think about you whistfully once in a while...but her focus won't be on you any longer. It'll be on her family and her husband...where it should be.

 

I know you doubt me...let me ask you this...

 

How often do you stop and reminisce about your first true love? When was the last time you really 'missed' that person? How often do you do that...when MW is right there in front of you??? Odds are, not often. Its a good bet that this is where your relationship with her will end up too.

 

I've seen it happen several times. My wife's feelings for OM changed in this way. I've known several people involved in affairs...and they experienced the same thing. And you see it happen all the time on boards where people come to for advice...like this one.

[stampdaddy]

What happens when the next thing you hear from her is a brief note signed by her and her husband asking you not to ever contact her again?

 

 

 

*ouch*

 

Sorry. But hold on to that feeling you just got in the pit of your stomach. Stop romanticizing so much and get your head straight. Look out for yourself. You are not in control of this. She is. All you can do is wait or move on. I'm not sure what else we can tell you.

 

Touche my good man...

[stampdaddy]

OK...here's what will happen.

 

Her husband is going to insist at first that she get rid of all those reminders.

 

She'll get rid of most of them, but keep some hidden that her husband won't know about. She'll pull them out when she can, and think of you.

 

For a while.

 

Then, as her addiction to you fades, her perception of her relationship to you will change. As her love for her husband resumes its place in the front of her mind, she'll start asking herself..."What was I thinking? I love this man!". She'll also start feeling guilty about those reminders.

 

Eventually, she'll wean herself off of looking at them, because doing so will remind her of her AFFAIR...and she'll feel guilty about it. It won't give her pleasant memories...instead, she'll think about that BETRAYAL of her husband.

 

She'll end up getting rid of them herself, in time.

 

She'll end up viewing her relationship with you as a major mistake, instead of a missed opportunity.

 

She'll find herself amazed at how her relationship with her husband has changed after the affair. She'll be astounded at how much love she'll feel for him again. She might think about you whistfully once in a while...but her focus won't be on you any longer. It'll be on her family and her husband...where it should be.

 

I know you doubt me...let me ask you this...

 

How often do you stop and reminisce about your first true love? When was the last time you really 'missed' that person? How often do you do that...when MW is right there in front of you??? Odds are, not often. Its a good bet that this is where your relationship with her will end up too.

 

I've seen it happen several times. My wife's feelings for OM changed in this way. I've known several people involved in affairs...and they experienced the same thing. And you see it happen all the time on boards where people come to for advice...like this one.

 

Yeah, But it's ME!! Stampdaddy!!

[Owl]

Yeah, But it's ME!! Stampdaddy!!

 

LOL!!!

 

I get you.

 

And I know this all sucks to hear. But you're asking, so we're telling. And I'm really not making all of this up, friend.

 

This is all 'standard script'.

 

So what's your plan for dealing with the next time that she breaks NC? We've talked about the "why's", but right now, you should be focusing on the "how's" as much as you can.

[stampdaddy]

LOL!!!

 

I get you.

 

And I know this all sucks to hear. But you're asking, so we're telling. And I'm really not making all of this up, friend.

 

This is all 'standard script'.

 

So what's your plan for dealing with the next time that she breaks NC? We've talked about the "why's", but right now, you should be focusing on the "how's" as much as you can.

 

Well, I'll take into my arms and make sweet, sweet.. WAIT! NO! Can't do that.. j/k

 

I will ask tp see her packed bags, and if they are not there, tell her to leave...

[stampdaddy]

I am sure it is all "standard script" as you call it.. But I will have a VERY hard time believing that we are standard, and for now, that's OK with me.. I am feeling better, not bitter.. Again, if she comes to me and tells me that she is going to stay with her FAMILY, then I will have to respect that, KNOWING what she is giving up with me, and come to grips with all of these "Standard patterns" of relationships, and THAT my friend will suck the most, thinking that WE were standard...

[reboot]

I will ask tp see her packed bags, and if they are not there, tell her to leave...

Why don't I believe that.....

[stampdaddy]

Why don't I believe that.....

 

Because I don't either.. BUT, I WILL TRY MY HARDEST

[Tomcat33]

I get what you're saying, SD.

She helped you pay the bills...but was she stressed out over how the bills got paid because she wanted to make sure that there was enough left over to cover getting her car fixed, or the kids new school clothes? Nope...because that decision didn't affect HER life.

 

She helped you get the house...but did the two of you have a major disagreemant over the cost, or location? Was she worried about what the school district was like for when she brought the kids over? Maybe...but even then, it wasn't a 'stress right now' thing...because the kids coming over was still hypothetical.

 

The thing is...she never RELIED on you to do these things...to support her AT THAT TIME. Have you had to help nurse her through a cold/fever through the night? Have you had to wash her dirty clothes? Has she had to live with you, and pick up your dirty clothes, and keep reminding you to put your shoes in the closet?

 

There is a LOT more to that day to day interaction than most people think about. Unless you've lived with her for an extended time...you don't have that 'day to day basis'. Your relationship has been a FANTASY...because its had very little true reality injected into it. Other than the stress of maintaining the fictions for her husband.

 

On the addiction...it IS an addiction. Make no mistake. You might not like it being phrased like that...but that's what it is. Go pick up some books and verify what I'm talking about. Try chapter 3 of "The Five Love Languages". Or "Surviving an Affair"...or "His Needs/Her Needs".

 

You've heard it from counselors, and you've heard it here. It doesn't sound pretty...but the reality is...its not.

 

I have grown to really respect your style in a short amount of time OWL your posts are super insightful!

 

I have to pipe in though that though in an affair you may not take care of your honey while they have the flu or fight over who pays the bill or who should pick up the children after school, having lived with two different men in my life in two long term relationships I can totally appreciate what you are saying about the day to day grind. HOWEVER the day to day grind to me was peanuts in regards to having to deal with the trauma, stress fighting and push and pull of the "where is this relationship going and what are we doing here?" that an affair creates. I know because that is what destroyed me in my relationship with my ex guy, we were living out our relationship like a normal one out in the open and dating as two single people bUT he was still married and his W did not know about us, it was SUPER stressful to say the least. SO while no I did not fight with him over who gets to pay the bills like I might have in a past relationship I had my share of stressful moments that we had to deal with in a very similar manner.

 

Honestly it is not all that different. Plus in Stamp's place it's three plus years you know a lot about a person in three years, my goodness some religions don't even let people meet before they marry and they make it work anyway once together. Some people date for 4 yrs and never live together or spend significant amounts of times in each other's spaces...some people in this day in age in our Western world still dont live together before they marry, yet they marry and have a fair go at it anyway. Would we say to them, well you haven't REALLY taken care of each other and seen the nitty gritty of what a couple goes through day in day out so you cannot marry? no! we wish them the best and away they go.

 

Re addiction....when we fall in love it is also compared to temporary insanity and it is, according to the brain waves...yet we do it anyway and it is the best feeling in the world. The addiction one feels in an A is no different than any addiction we feel when we have something that feels good. Three years is hardly an addiction it is a full on relationship.

 

It's like saying to any BS well you are just addicted to your cheating spouse let them go...it's no different.

[reboot]

I have grown to really respect your style in a short amount of time OWL your posts are super insightful!

I agree. He's good ain't he?

 

It's like saying to any BS well you are just addicted to your cheating spouse let them go...it's no different.

And that may very well be a fair statement.

[Tomcat33]

I agree. He's good ain't he?

 

 

Yup he's awsome! I've learned so much just from reading what he has shared in this thread alone...very interesting to read a male prespective and one in the BS shoes, some of the stuff here has really touched me and made me think...

Don't know if it's because of the time of year or what but have been touched with a lot of stories on here lately...maybe it's because we are all actually talking and not attacking over nonsense..

[Owl]

It's like saying to any BS well you are just addicted to your cheating spouse let them go...it's no different.

 

I would agree...except...you're gonna love this...

 

The BS isn't addicted to their WS!!!!

 

 

See...I told you that you'd love it.

 

Please...seriously...make a run to the nearest Borders (or Christian bookstores have them too), and grab a copy of "The Five Languages of Love". Get a cup of coffee and sit and read Chapter #3. It talks about the "in love" vs. the "long term love".

 

Somewhere around here I did a long post on the 'stages of love' in a relationship...but I'm too lazy and tired to retype it right now.

 

There is a HUGE difference between the feelings felt for an OP in an affair...or the feelings for anyone in the BEGINNING of a relationship (normally 2-3 years), and the feelings felt for that same person in a later phase of the same relationship.

 

And its those "in love" feelings that are the source of the chemical addiction.

 

Do an internet search, and you'll probably find what I'm talking about.

[Owl]

And thanks for the compliments...I'm not that 'good'. But I've been in a situation where I've had to give this stuff a LOT of thought.