I took the OW challenge!... now a few Q's

[head.heart& hand]

After several failed attempts previously, I have gone NC with my mm ( I’m several weeks in). Despite all of the familiar reasons for this, my primary reasons are that I don’t trust him anymore and have begun to lose respect. That alone should close the door permanently, yet like so many others here, I would consider a “new “ relationship should he take legal steps and D (he’s been separated and living apart for two years, yet has an arrangement of coming and going to his family home as he pleases- ps… He doesn’t have an attorney).

 

So I am moving forward without him, yet if circumstances change, I would consider beginning anew under a new set of circumstances. Given this, I’ve been turning a few questions over that I thought I would throw out to the forum.

 

1) Given years of deception, I keep asking myself if I could EVER trust him? I know that he is capable of manipulating people to get what he wants—and worse, he’s good at it! So, will this change with a D –or is this pattern likely to continue? Does anyone else have this issue?

 

2) He agreed so readily to moving forward with his marital situation (one way or another) outside of our R. Now, I understand why I want that, which I do! Yet for him to agree to NC was so far outside of his normal behavior, it raising questions. Perhaps he knew I wasn’t going to give him a choice here, yet do mm going through (or seriously pursuing) the process of D want to be away from the OW? Again, I believe it’s the right thing to do ( and we've talked about it on LS) but he hasn’t’ been doing the right thing for years—and now, a sudden change?

 

I realize my defenses are up, yet any thoughts?

[OpenBook]

After several failed attempts previously, I have gone NC with my mm ( I’m several weeks in)... He agreed so readily to moving forward with his marital situation (one way or another) outside of our R... do mm going through (or seriously pursuing) the process of D want to be away from the OW?

 

I think it's more likely that he simply doesn't believe that you will keep NC with him. If I were you I'd be extremely careful with any future interaction you may have with him. I've dealt with manipulative types like that before. They wait and let you make a complete fool of yourself... and then they calmly twist the knife into your gut. "That'll teach HER to treat me like that." This is especially true of control freaks who have always enjoyed the power edge in the relationship, until you finally stand up for yourself. They are extremely vicious in their retaliation. I hope your MM isn't like that.

[White Flower]

1) He will always be good at deception and manipulation. But, he also knows what you know about him which is more than any other. He'll be on his toes with you.

 

2) Going outside his normal behavior could mean that is he now serious about getting his D to show you he's ready OR it could mean that he'd like to try a hand at someone else while you're out of sight and out of mind. It is a tough call.

 

You have invested years into this R and need some answers. I've read a lot about you and think your A is quite unique in that he has moved out and has a lot of freedom yet won't D. I haven't done this myself, but have you considered having him followed for a day or installing a key logger on his computer? Maybe that is too extreme, but I don't understand why he's moved out yet puts off the D all the while knowing that you're waiting.

 

Good luck and welcome to the club:)

[head.heart& hand]

[quote=I think it's more likely that he simply doesn't believe that you will keep NC with him. If I were you I'd be extremely careful with any future interaction you may have with him. ---------- "That'll teach HER to treat me like that." This is especially true of control freaks who have always enjoyed the power edge in the relationship, until you finally stand up for yourself.

 

Thank you for the relpy OB. Yes, he has had the power edge and controls the conditions of the relationship, so I agree that I have to be very careful.

I've been vulnerable before and he knows this.

[head.heart& hand]

Hi WF, I always enjoy reading your posts! I think you're right on in your response. This time could be different OR if he simply wont move forward with a D, then sooner or later he will find another ow (and play this out all over again). If he has one in mind right now, that would kill me, but I suppose thats a possibility.

 

I dont think he is willing to give up the security his w who appears to accept whatever conditions he sets. Why she accepts this is something I don't understand, she has to know that shes being manipulated?

 

A week or so ago you had also written a comment suggesting that my mm might be unwilling to commit to me. Given the stress that his double life has created (for me), I believe this could be true. Afterall, why would he want to commit to a realtionship that has quite a bit of tension. We really never had a chance to be an exclusive and committed couple, yet wouldn't see it that way.

 

Thansk again WF!

[frannie]

1) Given years of deception, I keep asking myself if I could EVER trust him? I know that he is capable of manipulating people to get what he wants—and worse, he’s good at it! So, will this change with a D –or is this pattern likely to continue? Does anyone else have this issue?

 

Are you worried about cheating again per se or manipulation or both? Is he good at manipulating you? Does he tend to lie to you now, as far as you know? I think that just getting a D is unlikely to change these behaviours... hmm perhaps unless he's not been doing it to you too. I mean, it might be mainly situational. For example, if someone is incredibly hard to deal with and you're stuck with them (family, for example) an awful lot of people would decide just to lie and avoid confrontation. On the other hand, if he does that kind of thing routinely with everyone, then I'd say the problem was far more his character, and that's another matter.

 

But, if someone is a confrontation-avoider, its important to get them to feel they CAN deal with confrontations with you. By being reasonable yourself, for example. I think most couples can create an atmosphere of safety to share difficult issues IF both are honest, open, and want things to work.

 

2) He agreed so readily to moving forward with his marital situation (one way or another) outside of our R. Now, I understand why I want that, which I do! Yet for him to agree to NC was so far outside of his normal behavior, it raising questions. Perhaps he knew I wasn’t going to give him a choice here, yet do mm going through (or seriously pursuing) the process of D want to be away from the OW? Again, I believe it’s the right thing to do ( and we've talked about it on LS) but he hasn’t’ been doing the right thing for years—and now, a sudden change?

 

Maybe as you say he knew it was the last chance saloon. Perhaps as someone else said, he thinks you won't stick to it anyway and IF you break it he'll have the upper hand. I think that's fairly likely. If you go NC with certain conditions on his making contact and then YOU make contact... you've effectively lost your position. I should know because I've done it myself

[GreenEyedLady]

yet do mm going through (or seriously pursuing) the process of D want to be away from the OW? I realize my defenses are up, yet any thoughts?

 

I am in that situation now...And he is my partner and we are supporting each other through it...

 

Why is that the right thing, anyway? Would you go no contact with a friend when they needed you most?

 

Sorry, I know all the arguments out there but basically it boils down to people not wanting people in EMR to have a successful R...

[nadiaj2727]

Congratulations HH&H, I am so proud of you. I knew you could do it.

 

I went through the same stage you seem to be in. At first I thought I was breaking up with xMM until he got divorced, for a myriad of reasons: 1) I felt guilty being with a married man 2) I doubted whether he was really ever going to get divorced 3) I hated not being able to trust him so I thought it would be best to wait until we were in a place [post-divorce] to start over with trust 4) I thought it was the best way to protect my heart in case he wasn't really getting divorced 5) I hated all the secrecy, double life, lies, and was just downright unhappy being an OW.

 

But once I was in NC, the "fog" started to lift, so to speak, and I began to realize he had been lying/ stringing me along the whole time! I saw him in a different light than when I was all "goo goo ga ga" in love with him. When I started thinking about protecting my own interests/ heart, I realized that HE had not been doing that all along, or he never would have subjected me to being an OW. I personally don't think that any man who truly loves a woman would allow her to be his OW. He would tell he loves her and then SHOW her that by getting divorced before being with her. Anything else is just disrespect and selfishness, in my own opinion of course.

 

So that made it hard to "wait around" on him to get divorced, when I realized that if he truely loved me, none of that would have ever happened. It also helped to realize that he was STILL not getting divorced, and in fact I think my breaking up with him pushed him back to his wife. It was like he was waiting for one of the two women in his life to take action (me to break up with him or tell his wife, his wife to divorce him, etc.), because he was two much of a wimp to take action himself. I just saw all of these character traits (wimpy, selfish, insecure, self-centered, manipulative, has NO problem lying to the whole word to get what he wants, can't honor his marriage vows, etc.) and realized that this was NOT a man I wanted to be with, divorce or no divorce.

 

There is also the problem that people going through a divorce experience all kinds of different emotions and are pretty unstable. There's no telling if he'll even want to be with you (or any other woman) once he's divorced, as that could remind him of his "failure" (I think many men see divorce as failure... hence the MM with the OW). I don't mean to be harsh, but it's something to think about in protecting your heart. You are very wise to not be with him until he's divorced, and I would also recommend waiting a little while after that to see if he's still in the same place with you as he was when you were OW.

 

How is he reacting to NC? (It helped me cement my decision that xMM was NOT the one for me when he continually ignored my request for NC and tried to talk to me anyway and threw babyish tantrums, etc.)

 

Best wishes HH&H, thanks for updating us. I am so glad you took the OW challenge and that it's working out for you!

[writeon]

I am in that situation now...And he is my partner and we are supporting each other through it...

 

Why is that the right thing, anyway? Would you go no contact with a friend when they needed you most?

 

Sorry, I know all the arguments out there but basically it boils down to people not wanting people in EMR to have a successful R...

 

 

GreenEyed Lady, I've read your posts which all say the exact same thing over and over (& you refuse to give details about your situation and instead tell Other Women theirs will work out okay if they have faith... hmmm interesting.). It seems you try to offer hope to Other Women, even those like OP who come here looking for support/ strength during their very hard decision to get out of the affair and cut off contact with Married Men. I don't understand why you do this except that you don't see the reality of most affairs, or you want affairs to turn out the way you feel yours is, happily ever after. I'm not saying I think your relationship won't work out, but I'm saying that once your Married Man has finalized his divorce and wants to be with you as a committed, exclusive couple, you will be able to say "we are a special exception, we worked out", but you still won't be able to say "most relationships that start out as affairs turn out great like ours"... because just by reading all of these other OW/ OM posts, we can all see that it usually doesn't work out like that, & that is only giving them false hope... therefore giving OW advice like the advice in your post, in my opinion, is no better than the married man who lies and strings along his OW.

 

I think there are so few "happy endings" I've read on this forum that it seems downright blind (as in, disregarding reality) to offer "hope" to those who are trying to be strong and walk away from a situation that is obviously bad for them. You may be okay with your situation, but why try to encourage people to be OW, which in most cases only brings heartache and misery? (These are rhetorical questions as I know you never answer people who ask you questions you don't like.)

 

Also, I don't see how Head Heart & Hand's Married Man "needs her most" right now. Where do you see that? He has not taken any steps to get divorced, he has just said he wants to get divorced. I don't think you should make her feel guilty for doing the best thing for her for once, instead of this obviously selfish & cake-eating married man. I understand that you feel your situation is working out for the best but that is not the case for most OWs, therefore, deluding them with fantasy instead of applauding them for seeing reality (like OP is doing right now) is not going to help.

 

And, I don't agree that most people don't want people in Extramarital Relationships to have a successful Relationship. I want you and all OWs (and everyone in general ) to be in happy, fulfilling, successful relationships. The fact is, in reality, most EMRs don't turn into successful relationships, because they are built on lies and deceit and they come at a time when married cheating men are all over the place emotionally, very selfish, & don't really know what they want. I know you've heard this before & don't believe it, so I'll hush up now, because I don't think I can convince you of this any better than the wiser-than-I-am people on here have been able to do. And I am not trying to convince you as much as tell Head Heart & Hand (& others in her situation) that she is doing the right thing, realistically, although of course in our fantasy worlds we would always like something different to happen.

 

Head Heart & Hand, I applaud you for recognizing the problems in your relationship with MM & deciding to wait until the two of you can have the right kind of relationship. As to your questions... I bet this is an eye-opening time for you, and that without contact with Married Man you will discover a lot about yourself, him, and the relationship. If it is meant to be, it will survive until he is divorced and ready to give you everything you deserve. And if it is not meant to be, well, it is great of you to cut your losses and get out while you're ahead. Great job hon, I know this must have been hard for you to do!!!! Keep us updated, & stay strong. (HUGS!)

[writeon]

PS I realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm not trying to knock anyone, I am just trying to say that maybe those of us who are not Other Women are better able to provide a realistic perspective of the situation. I know Head Heart & Hand by browsing your past posts that you have a very realistic hold on things, & that's why you're doing what you're doing. Good for you!! Sorry that my rant took up space on your thread -- I just don't understand how people can encourage you to stay in a bad situation. But I do think everyone is here to help you. I did not mean to be counter-productive. Best wishes.

[White Flower]

Hi WF, I always enjoy reading your posts! I think you're right on in your response. This time could be different OR if he simply wont move forward with a D, then sooner or later he will find another ow (and play this out all over again). If he has one in mind right now, that would kill me, but I suppose thats a possibility.

 

I dont think he is willing to give up the security his w who appears to accept whatever conditions he sets. Why she accepts this is something I don't understand, she has to know that shes being manipulated?

 

A week or so ago you had also written a comment suggesting that my mm might be unwilling to commit to me. Given the stress that his double life has created (for me), I believe this could be true. Afterall, why would he want to commit to a realtionship that has quite a bit of tension. We really never had a chance to be an exclusive and committed couple, yet wouldn't see it that way.

 

Thansk again WF!

You are welcome. I wish you the very best.