The woman's guide to getting and keeping a man

[lindya]

I don't understand. OP said that women want men who show interest in them. But isn't that easy, and therefore not interesting? Isn't a challenge sexier? This looks like a discrepancy, which suggests that one of the premises here is wrong.

 

Showing interest and providing some level of challenge aren't incompatible behaviours. The man who doesn't show interest isn't a challenge; he just isn't interesting. I'm sure that in the same way, if a man approaches a woman and she's completely unresponsive, he'll lose interest and move on quickly.

[Trialbyfire]

Showing interest and providing some level of challenge aren't incompatible behaviours. The man who doesn't show interest isn't a challenge; he just isn't interesting. I'm sure that in the same way, if a man approaches a woman and she's completely unresponsive, he'll lose interest and move on quickly.

Sadly, not always. A pet peeve of mine.

 

"No Sir, you aren't irresistible. I'm not playing hard to get. I think you're an arsehole."

[Stockalone]

This is a small snippet of something I've been writing for a while now, support for an idea that a woman can act in a specific way that will either help her get a guy, or at the very least, do nothing to harm her chances with him. It's in something of a how-to format, and has a fairly straightforward application here. Agree, disagree, criticize, whatever:

 

I am not sure if a male perspective is wanted or if you are primarily looking for a female take on things. So I try to keep it short.

 

The basic prerequisite for your guide is that all confident men will value the advocated female behavior patterns in the same, positive way. I don't think that assumption is valid.

[scratch]

I don't understand. OP said that women want men who show interest in them. But isn't that easy, and therefore not interesting? Isn't a challenge sexier? This looks like a discrepancy, which suggests that one of the premises here is wrong.

 

Whether a woman wants a man who shows interest in her or not is fairly irrelevant. She can't have a man who doesn't show enough interest in her to approach her. Thus, those that don't show interest in her aren't even in the potential pool.

 

Both genders are limited in what they can have by who wants them. That's not a discrepancy with concept of "challenge," just a fact of the options one has when dating.

 

The basic prerequisite for your guide is that all confident men will value the advocated female behavior patterns in the same, positive way. I don't think that assumption is valid.

 

Stockalone, kindly elaborate. Provide an example where my strategy will be less effective than an alternate one.

[Trialbyfire]

scratch, I have to express this because I keep seeing the title of your thread and it makes me cranky.

 

Guide to getting and keeping a man, bothers me. Men are not feral animals, needing to be coerced into being hand fed by kindly treatment. You gentlemen are not porch cats or raccoons. Women don't need to trap and keep you.

 

If this is the way men feel, I'd honestly rather be alone.

[KarmaSutra]

Did I misunderstand your interpretation of what I wrote, or do you feel that "the emotional and psychological effect his personality and, most importantly, the absolute confidence in his own masculinity and the respect of his boundaries" is the key to a woman winning over a man?

 

Two things:

 

1. Yes, you've obviously misinterpreted my retort.

 

2. The key to a woman winning over a man is this: A woman must have matured in the four primary areas of her life (what I've termed the Four Karmic Pillars of Personal Ascendancy) Management, Respect, Initiative and Responsibility. Once these have been mastered she then can accept and appreciate what a man ,who has also blossomed and groomed these areas to his satisfaction, can contribute to her life. This will then culminate in a flourishing relationship of which both can reach the next paradigm.

 

Let's talk . . .

[Lovegod]

b. To sum up, the women reading this need to ask themselves an honest question

 

Oooh, lemme guess... "Am I a creature unlike any other?"

 

All credit for this post should go to Ellen Fein (divorced) & Sherrie Schneider who wrote the book "The Rules: Time-tested Secrets for Capturing the Heart of Mr. Right".

 

All men should go to amazon and buy this piece of trash. It's only ten bucks.

[scratch]

2. The key to a woman winning over a man is this: A woman must have matured in the four primary areas of her life (what I've termed the Four Karmic Pillars of Personal Ascendancy) Management, Respect, Initiative and Responsibility. Once these have been mastered she then can accept and appreciate what a man ,who has also blossomed and groomed these areas to his satisfaction, can contribute to her life. This will then culminate in a flourishing relationship of which both can reach the next paradigm.

 

I believe your point, stripped away of some of the superfluousness, is that the best way for a woman to attract a man is to be the best woman and person she can be. That's another aspect of attraction, but perhaps more relevant to the level of man she can attract rather than how to become and remain attractive to a given man.

 

All credit for this post should go to Ellen Fein (divorced) & Sherrie Schneider who wrote the book "The Rules: Time-tested Secrets for Capturing the Heart of Mr. Right".

 

Are you suggesting my idea is a "Rules" ripoff? I've heard that before, as well as a ripoff of "He's Just Not Into You." I've read neither, but to the extent they both preach a degree of patience, I obviously agree with that component. Do you not?

[Lovegod]

I've read "The Rules" and it's a desperate attempt to control the man and make him marry you.

 

I've read neither, but to the extent they both preach a degree of patience, I obviously agree with that component. Do you not?

 

Patience when it comes to dating will get you nowhere. Some ugly chick who was dropped on her face at birth will wait until she's dead for a man to approach her.

 

If a woman's going to attract a man, she's got to work on her best features. She also has to look good. If her face looks like she tried to put out a house fire with a tambourine, she's going to need to focus on her better features. Next in line, she can make her body look absolutely stunning. If she's fat, she needs to lose weight. If she's got big tits, she needs to show them off. If she's got an incredibly grababble ass and killer legs, she needs to wear tight clothes and short skirts.

 

Then finally, we get to the personality. If she's a b1tch and has 5hit self-esteem, she needs to fix all that. Therapy maybe? An ugly woman with a stunning body and an attractive personality will be able to attract a man.

 

Oh yeah, and she needs to take on the responsibility of approaching men and let them know she's interested. If she doesn't, she'll end up being the tag-along while her hot best friend gets all the guys.

[KarmaSutra]

I believe your point, stripped away of some of the superfluousness, is that the best way for a woman to attract a man is to be the best woman and person she can be. That's another aspect of attraction, but perhaps more relevant to the level of man she can attract rather than how to become and remain attractive to a given man.

 

There is nothing "superfluous" about my retort. It's bare bones and absolutely factual. So factual it can be proven in a laboratory. Nonetheless, A woman having her entire package together is not an aspect of what makes her attactive to a man, it's what makes her attractive to ALL men.

 

Are you suggesting my idea is a "Rules" ripoff? I've heard that before, as well as a ripoff of "He's Just Not Into You." I've read neither, but to the extent they both preach a degree of patience, I obviously agree with that component. Do you not?

 

Though I wouldn't say rip off I would absolutely throw the word clone in the mix. As an obvious devotee of The Rules you cannot expect us to believe you don't have that book and the myriad of Mars and Venus tomes strewn about your coffee table. It's a nice try but remember what I learned in film school many years ago: "Talent borrows but genius steals." Nothing wrong with stealing if you improve on what you've stolen.

 

Lovegod put the finger in the hole on this one.

[scratch]

I've read "The Rules" and it's a desperate attempt to control the man and make him marry you.

 

That's what I heard. My suggestion to use an attitude that will make the man feel that you're behaving in the exact opposite fashion.

 

Patience when it comes to dating will get you nowhere. Some ugly chick who was dropped on her face at birth will wait until she's dead for a man to approach her.

 

Again, this speaks to the caliber of man she can attract, not the way she can best attract a given man. Will ugly girls get less desirable men than hot ones? Almost certainly. However, no woman can get a man who isn't attracted to her in the first place, so patience can't hurt you at all.

 

If a woman's going to attract a man, she's got to work on her best features. She also has to look good. If her face looks like she tried to put out a house fire with a tambourine, she's going to need to focus on her better features. Next in line, she can make her body look absolutely stunning. If she's fat, she needs to lose weight. If she's got big tits, she needs to show them off. If she's got an incredibly grababble ass and killer legs, she needs to wear tight clothes and short skirts.

 

This is a great point (and an ever better simile). I'm going to add a chapter on physical appearance, and will credit you if you like.

 

Then finally, we get to the personality. If she's a bitch and has 5hit self-esteem, she needs to fix all that. Therapy maybe?

 

Sure. This is another iteration of "being the best woman/person you can be," discussed at some length by some of the other posters on this thread.

 

Oh yeah, and she needs to take on the responsibility of approaching men and let them know she's interested.

 

Here, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly. Are you saying that you've been approached by a woman you wouldn't have bothered approaching, but based on her approaching you, you gave her a chance at the kind of relationship she wanted with you? If you say yes to that, I hesitate to say I don't believe you, but I'd be very surprised.

 

She should make them feel very welcome if they approach and therefore communicate interest, but an actual approach is self-defeating.

 

If she doesn't, she'll end up being the tag-along while her hot best friend gets all the guys

 

Perhaps in a future edition, I'll write about the strategy of attracting and winning a guy who you meet because he's taking one for the team.

[lindya]

I read the Rules several years ago, and there are three things about it that stuck in my mind:

 

1. Never accept the offer of a weekend date if that offer is extended any later than Wednesday.

2. Only call him once for every four calls he makes to you (or something like that. Can't remember exactly).

3. Regard yourself as a "creature unlike any other".

 

I can't really see how anyone could behave like that and not be a fairly annoying, tedious person - despite (I've suddenly remembered another rule) being hard to get, easy to be around.

 

I don't think scratch has dealt with the issue of sex in this thread....ie when the "acceptable" time for it to happen might be. Maybe it would be interesting to hear about that and see how his theories compare with the Rules. As I recall, "Rules Girls" had very set ideas about when they should slip between the scented sheets and make the two backed creature unlike any other.

[johan]

Here's my guide to keeping a man:

 

1) Look hot.

2) Keep quiet.

[lindya]

Here's my guide to keeping a man:

 

1) Look hot.

2) Keep quiet.

 

You're an example to all of us, Johan.

[scratch]

I read the Rules several years ago.

 

Do you feel that my work is a re-hash of the rules?

 

I don't think scratch has dealt with the issue of sex in this thread....ie when the "acceptable" time for it to happen might be. Maybe it would be interesting to hear about that and see how his theories compare with the Rules. As I recall, "Rules Girls" had very set ideas about when they should slip between the scented sheets and make the two backed creature unlike any other.

 

Your wish is my command. See below:

 

vi. With respect to sexual advances, it’s really a matter of what makes any given individual comfortable. There is little truth to the idea that guys don’t respect women who kiss or sleep with them too soon. A man may not want anything from you beyond casual sex, but his determination will have nothing to do with the length of time you wait before sleeping together. If a guy is seeing you solely for the conquest, he is easily capable of dating you for two months, securing the notch on his bedpost, and disappearing. Conversely, many long term relationships result from first-night sex. The point is, it’s okay to say “no” when it comes to sex (or any sexual act) as long as it’s a matter of your own comfort and not a matter of making the guy wait or making him “earn it.”

1. There is a counterpoint to this, however. There are some men who have been indoctrinated with the idea that a woman who sleeps with them too soon isn’t relationship material, and therefore will lose respect for her. When faced with such a problem, women should keep a few things in perspective.

a. Men who cling to this antiquated notion do so based not on their own insight or experience, but rather, a blind adherence to the unsupported ideas of others. These are the same types of people that join cults.

b. Most of the time men say that they lost interest in a woman for sleeping with him too soon, it is a smoke screen – the truth is that he wasn’t really interested in a serious relationship with her in the first place.

c. It’s possibly as common for a man to develop stronger feelings after sex as to lose those feelings. Most women have had an experience when, after having sex with a man, he presumptively decided that they were now embroiled in a serious committed relationship. This is not to say that you should have sex to make him more interested in a commitment, simply that such a turn of events is just as likely as a man losing interest due to early sex.

d. Madonna/whore & incompatibilty

2. In summation, I repeat – have sex when you’re ready, and comfortable. Do NOT make your decision of when to have sex as a matter of relationship strategy. It’s not worth it.

[Lovegod]

Lovegod put the finger in the hole on this one.

 

And you all know how I love the hole

 

Will ugly girls get less desirable men than hot ones? Almost certainly.

 

Yes and no. They will get the boring nice guys.

 

However, no woman can get a man who isn't attracted to her in the first place, so patience can't hurt you at all.

 

I beg to differ. Attraction isn't something that either exists or doesn't exist at all. Attraction can be created. I've done it before with women who were previously not attracted to me. Instead of taking inaction and depending on patience to follow through, why not make the effort to create attraction?

 

I'm going to add a chapter on physical appearance, and will credit you if you like.

 

Thanks Ellen.

 

Sure. This is another iteration of "being the best woman/person you can be," discussed at some length by some of the other posters on this thread.

 

That's cool. The only post I really read was the first one. I have yet to pick it apart and analyze it. Stay tuned.

 

Are you saying that you've been approached by a woman you wouldn't have bothered approaching, but based on her approaching you, you gave her a chance at the kind of relationship she wanted with you?

 

Yes. But I got rid of her shortly after. I gave her a second chance after she became a single mother, but I got rid of her shortly afterward again.

 

Since then, I've been extremely picky with the women I date. Most of the ones who have approached me have been completely undesirable. I've turned down many cougars and single mothers (except for one who was smokin' hot). However, I know there's plenty of really nice guys who are afraid of approaching that would LOVE to have a divorced woman, or even a child they didn't create.

 

Man, this piece of junk website is being flakey again.

[LoveLace]

Well I'm good at hearing advice and not at following it, but I swear Mars and Venus On a Date is one of the best books I've read. It explains that we go through phases of attraction: physical, mental, emotional and sew on. Both men and women go through each phase, but in a different order. It was interesting, so just a tip.

 

I wouldn't call it "stringing the guy along" because this and "playing hard to get" is 2 different things. If your stringing someone along, it's because your not as into them as they are into you. Playing hard to get is just another way of basically grabbing attention from someone you DO like. It's a fact that it works in many cases, for both sexes actually. So if someone I like isn't calling...there's only one way to distinguish weather or not I'm being strung along or if he wants my attention. That way is NC at all....because if your being strung along, they will probably never call you; but if they want your attention, they will eventually call after attempting hard-to-get. But THEN we still don't know WHY exactly they want attention, because wanting attention doesn't mean they really like you, it could mean their ego is just hungry.

[Lovegod]

...and now my dear, we dance

 

ii. All women want confident men.

Ah, now here's where we encounter problems. I'm going to generously say that at least 50% of all men out there are NOT confident (in reality it's probably more). Now what's the solution there? Either attract a confident man (who knows he can get a GREAT woman) or settle for a man who is willing to hand his balls over to you on a silver platter.

 

it’s rather hard to imagine that a man confident enough to win a woman’s heart isn’t confident enough to attempt to initiate a meeting or conversation. Again, this strategy encourages women to focus their attentions on men who make the first move.

 

A woman who is physically attractive will have confident men initiating contact with her.

 

b. To sum up, the women reading this need to ask themselves an honest question – if a man isn’t both a) interested enough and b) confident enough to approach me, especially if I make it relatively easy (see below) for him, is he really a man with whom I want to pursue a relationship?

 

And how is this different from the way things are working today? When you boil everything down, all that matters is how the woman LOOKS.

 

i. Men DO need clear signals.

 

Confident men do not need clear signals. They go for it regardless of what signals you give them. Unconfident men are the ones who need the big, bright, blinky green lighted sign screaming at him "YES YOU IDIOT! SHE WANTS TO DATE YOU!!!"

 

Any man with significant dating experience knows that mixed signals equate to the woman not having enough interest to want us to pursue her.

 

Any man with significant dating experience learned not to give a damn about "mixed signals" and just go for it. He knows that when she makes excuses to avoid him, she's not interested.

 

 

 

 

Not only did she get a date with Mike, she got it on her terms. However, she has also planted the seed in Mike’s mind that the main reason she wants to spend time with him is not because she enjoys his company, but because he takes her to activities she enjoys. Again, men have experienced enough interactions with women to develop antennae for these qualified acceptances of dates. Mike will continue to date Lisa until he finds someone who doesn’t make him question her motives.

 

You really lost me on this one.

 

ii. Men DON’T need women to do their jobs for them. It’s important for both of you that he does the approaching and the asking out.

 

Again, if she's not smoking hot, she'll have to approach him if she wants him to realize she exists, she's not too bad looking, and she's a fun and interesting lady.

 

 

 

If a beautiful woman walks up to a man, buys him a drink and asks him out, he’ll be thrilled. However, he’ll also feel a little empty, like he didn’t do something he was supposed to.

 

???

 

When a woman buys a drink for me, I consider that the ultimate green light, and that she is highly interested in me. My current woman bought me a drink when we first met, and I didn't feel the slightest bit guilty about it.

 

2. As much as we hate to admit it, men do want a bit of a challenge.

 

Finding a good woman is enough of a challenge. If I want a challenge, I'll seduce a married or engaged woman. Oh wait, that wasn't much of a challenge either :S

 

While mixed signals are highly off-putting, there is no substitute for the thrill of the chase.

 

I think it's only women who truly enjoy that thrill. If a woman shows low interest, I ditch her and move on.

 

Don’t feel that if you let a guy make all the plans, you’re being lazy and unappreciative. Chances are he enjoys making them as much as you enjoy letting him.

 

This doesn't stray far from reality, but we've got another problem here. Again, confident men (and dare I say 50% of them) will make all the plans. Most men want to let the woman pick an activity she enjoys, and the man will take her to that destination. But instead, we have conversations like this:

 

Him: What do you want to do?

Her: I dunno, what do you want to do?

Him: I dunno, what do you want to do?

Her: I dunno, what do you want to do?

Him: I dunno, what do you want to do?

 

i. Do not approach a man.

 

I must add to this... Do not approach a man if you're smoking hot. If you're not smoking hot, you need all the help you can get.

 

ii. When he does approach, provide positive feedback.

 

I agree with that.

 

iii. As long as he continues to make (non-sexual) advances, say “yes.”

 

Unless she doesn't like the offer. If that's the case, she should counter-offer. If she isn't drinking, she should say "Sorry, I'm not drinking tonight, but perhaps another night"

 

iv. By not initiating much, but happily accepting his advances, you create a situation where he is able to go through the pursuit and conquest ritual.

 

When a woman initiates next to nothing, I consider her boring and keep looking for someone who's more interesting.

[LoveLace]

I do agree that women should approach men, if they see one they are interested in. If he isn't approaching you, giving signals could work but they could also be flying right over his head. Fact is if you really want him to notice you, throw it right it there. If your not as good-looking as another chick in the room, your obviously more confident for being the initiator. This alone will make you more attractive. You can give the guy opportunity to initiate things after that point, and if he doesn't, he probably isn't interested. But his lack of interest probably has nothing to do with you approaching him, it's other reasons weather it be the way you look or the way you laugh. Either way I think any guy appreciates not always having to make the 1st move. Nowadays, I think most guys, even confident ones, like a little variety of both; I'd say this goes for confident women as well.

[lindya]

Do you feel that my work is a re-hash of the rules?

 

No I don't. The Rules encourage women to focus on a persona they're attempting to develop in a bid to seem unique, fascinating and desirable. To believe that they've got to lie and deceive in order to be interesting. "Soooo sorry, but I'm busy on Saturday (I've made no plans yet, but by waiting until Thursday to call me, you didn't make me feel like a princess - and the Rules say I should feel like a princess. So I'm going to punish you for that by depriving you of my unique company this weekend). It's childish and seems a bit unhealthy.

 

What you're saying here seems more geared towards demonstrating appreciation and encouraging the guy to feel confident and positive about the way he's handling the courtship process. The more confident and positive he's feeling, the better it's going to go, and the happier both people will be.

 

Also, this

 

vi. With respect to sexual advances, it’s really a matter of what makes any given individual comfortable. There is little truth to the idea that guys don’t respect women who kiss or sleep with them too soon.... There is a counterpoint to this, however. There are some men who have been indoctrinated with the idea that a woman who sleeps with them too soon isn’t relationship material, and therefore will lose respect for her. When faced with such a problem, women should keep a few things in perspective.

a. Men who cling to this antiquated notion do so based not on their own insight or experience, but rather, a blind adherence to the unsupported ideas of others. These are the same types of people that join cults.

b. Most of the time men say that they lost interest in a woman for sleeping with him too soon, it is a smoke screen – the truth is that he wasn’t really interested in a serious relationship with her in the first place.

c. It’s possibly as common for a man to develop stronger feelings after sex as to lose those feelings. Most women have had an experience when, after having sex with a man, he presumptively decided that they were now embroiled in a serious committed relationship. This is not to say that you should have sex to make him more interested in a commitment, simply that such a turn of events is just as likely as a man losing interest due to early sex.

d. Madonna/whore & incompatibilty

 

 

...is entirely different from what I recall of the "a Rules Girl never sleeps with a man before they've had X dates because she knows that if she does, he'll lose interest" approach . The Rules assumes all men fall into category a or d...and that approach probably is effective with those men.

 

Ah, now here's where we encounter problems. I'm going to generously say that at least 50% of all men out there are NOT confident (in reality it's probably more). Now what's the solution there? Either attract a confident man (who knows he can get a GREAT woman) or settle for a man who is willing to hand his balls over to you on a silver platter.

 

 

The majority of men aren't alphamales, and the majority of women aren't superhot. A lot of men will, however, become more confident and alphamale-like during the course of a good relationship, in the same way that love can make a woman look significantly better.

 

I think when people are looking for a partner they often have a blueprint in mind which is based on an attractive opposite sex acquaintance who's already in a good relationship. They want the finished, eye-catching product in a way...and overlook potential in less noticeable people.

 

In that sense, I agree with you that sometimes a woman approaching a man does work. My mother approached my father who, at the time, was very shy, whereas she was always a confident, social creature. When I hear their story, it makes me shake my head in disbelief because I absolutely can't imagine my noisy, vibrant and even a tad domineering father as having ever been a shy, reticent person. But he was. He was approached by a bold woman who he'd been casting furtive glances at on a train. At a time when nice women certainly weren't expected to make the first move. It worked out pretty well for both of them, so I can definitely see both sides of this.

[maynicholas]

I'm in the 'if your a confident woman you go after what you want' camp. I know what I want and if I see a man I want I will approach him. If he loses intrest because I made the first move, then he wouldn't be the right fit for me in the long run.

I believe that in the beginning of a relationship we have nothing to lose, so why not behave exactly as you are? Why pretend to be coy and passive if your not? He would be in for a big shock when that smoke screen came down and he may not like the real you. So why bother to invest play money in the beginning and only show your real bills when you get further along- seems to me you would have more to lose at that point. I put it all on the table from the start. If he likes it, great. If he doesn't well, that's fine too.

If your looking for a long-term partner might as well be honest in who you are from the beginning. But if you are looking for a quick conquest- then I say act away!

[LoveLace]

I don't think maynicholas could have said it better...

 

Nothing is wrong with the concept that men should make 1st moves, but for women to follow "rules" in regards to this, is almost like being fake...so if you'd rather be the one to approach, then just do it....nike...ha ha

[Lovegod]

A lot of men will, however, become more confident and alphamale-like during the course of a good relationship,

 

I've found the opposite to be true; The man will get more submissive and sacrificial in order to keep her around. He cannot say "No' to her because he doesn't want to upset her and have her walk out on him.

[Woggle]

Women should just be themselves and be an all around decent person and they should eventually find what they are looking for, Games will never get you what you want unless you crave drama.

[lindya]

I've found the opposite to be true; The man will get more submissive and sacrificial in order to keep her around. He cannot say "No' to her because he doesn't want to upset her and have her walk out on him.

 

Emphasis on good relationship. If one person's continually compromising healthy aspects of their identity (eg confidence, assertiveness...) to prevent their partner from walking, I don't call that a good relationship.