Let's be honest

[OpenBook]

How do you know how OW have have treated commited relationships in the past? There are a lot of OW who have had long marriages. I think you're making assumptions here.

 

In fact I'm not sure I see the point of the whole thread (well the bits of it that aren't about stampdaddy's situation), which seems to be about armchair analysis of people in the OW/OM situation. Fair enough, but does it get anyone anywhere? JMHO, not intended to step on any toes.

 

(Woggle: Correct me if I'm wrong!!) Just like a lot of people here, Woggle has a lot of questions... and doubts... about relationships. I think he is throwing out "blanket" statements to see how people respond. I do exactly the same thing... almost HOPING someone will change my mind. It has been an interesting ride for me. There is much I have learned from other people's reactions to my "hypotheses"...

[Woggle]

I know I am making somewhat of a blanket statement and there are exceptions to every rule but after reading many of these posts from OW a pattern does begin to emerge. Somebody made a comparison to guys with long hair being stereotyped but you can't compare hairstyles and appearance to behavior. There is a pyschological reason that people chase a type of relationship that 9 times out of 10 ends in hurt and heartbreak and has a very small success rate.

[addicted2love]

I know I am making somewhat of a blanket statement and there are exceptions to every rule but after reading many of these posts from OW a pattern does begin to emerge. Somebody made a comparison to guys with long hair being stereotyped but you can't compare hairstyles and appearance to behavior. There is a pyschological reason that people chase a type of relationship that 9 times out of 10 ends in hurt and heartbreak and has a very small success rate.

 

Woggle: I was the one that made the stereotype comparison. My point was you can not judge all OW as people who seek out and habitually find themselves in bad relationships. Sure there are PEOPLE out there that do that consistantly but to say the "most" OW (and I believe you haven't grouped the OM in this catagory) seek out these toxic relationships that end badly is untrue.

 

A lot of the bad marriages are way more toxic than the A relationship itself. Some OP/MP find themselves in an A relationship because for the first time a relationship feels "right" and "normal". Most of the people I've talked to that are in an A or have ever been in one would never have dreamed they would have an A.

 

While most of us aren't disagreeing with you completely we don't believe that it's as general as you think. Most OW didn't chase their MM. And most MM do not chase OW. Sure there are people out there that do, serial cheaters and serial OW...but I believe they are the exception, not the majority.

 

A2L

[OpenBook]

Woggle: I was the one that made the stereotype comparison. My point was you can not judge all OW as people who seek out and habitually find themselves in bad relationships. Sure there are PEOPLE out there that do that consistantly but to say the "most" OW (and I believe you haven't grouped the OM in this catagory) seek out these toxic relationships that end badly is untrue.

 

I agree. The heart wants what it wants... regardless of whether it's the rational, sane thing to do or not.

 

A lot of the bad marriages are way more toxic than the A relationship itself.

 

You got that right!! It's horrifying.

 

While most of us aren't disagreeing with you completely we don't believe that it's as general as you think. Most OW didn't chase their MM. And most MM do not chase OW. Sure there are people out there that do, serial cheaters and serial OW...but I believe they are the exception, not the majority.

 

I agree with everything you said except for the bolded part. I've seen too many MM acting like SG's when their W's aren't present. It's bizarre. They act like completely different people when they're with their W's. It reminds me of badly-behaving kids (the wily rascal types) in elementary school with a strict teacher. They sit up and pay attention when she's in the room... but the minute she leaves it's like a switch is flipped, and they start their usual shenanigans.

[Lizzie60]

This is not a thread to bash the OW or any of that but if many of you actually got what you wanted from these men you would get bored within a year and would be looking for greener grass. You date MM because a real relationship scares you and a MM is safe. That being said you are still human and you do have a heart so you fall in love which is why you tear yourself apart emotionally.

 

I'm always amazed when I read posts like this one... Why do you think that it's always the OW who gets heartbroken? I would think that, in my case, more MMs have been hurt than me. I do not expect anything from my MMs so when I get bored... I 'flushed' them, it's that simple. I do not tear myself apart for a man... never did (oh well, when I was young maybe).. but not anymore.. and never will.

 

I have sex with them because I choose to have a man who will not cling to me, who will be satisfied to see me when I FEEL like it... not the other way around. If he's not happy with my conditions, he can go find someone else.

 

Not all OW fall in love with the MM and are torn apart... some do, but a lot don't... some MW do have sex on the side, because it is boring at home, but they don't want to leave their H and kids.. this is easy to understand IMO, they do it for the same reasons MMs have sex on the side.

 

It works for some people..

[addicted2love]

I agree with everything you said except for the bolded part. I've seen too many MM acting like SG's when their W's aren't present. It's bizarre. They act like completely different people when they're with their W's. It reminds me of badly-behaving kids (the wily rascal types) in elementary school with a strict teacher. They sit up and pay attention when she's in the room... but the minute she leaves it's like a switch is flipped, and they start their usual shenanigans.

 

You are right OB...I've seen these "shenanigan" type behaviors. But those that I have witnessed that behave this way are for the most part serial cheaters. Not MM in bad marriages.

[reboot]

You are right OB...I've seen these "shenanigan" type behaviors. But those that I have witnessed that behave this way are for the most part serial cheaters. Not MM in bad marriages.

I'm just curious. How can you tell the difference?

[RecordProducer]

This is not a thread to bash the OW or any of that but if many of you actually got what you wanted from these men you would get bored within a year and would be looking for greener grass. You date MM because a real relationship scares you and a MM is safe. That being said you are still human and you do have a heart so you fall in love which is why you tear yourself apart emotionally.

I think it's rather a typical male trait to get bored within a year (not to bash the male species, but it's a sad true, from my own observation).

 

I am not sure that women date MM because they are safe. On the contrary, they fall in love with them, which makes them high-risk targets for the faint hearts. I think the danger of stealing someone from somebody (winning) excites them as well as the danger of getting caught (forbidden fruit).

 

I believe the psychological profile of the OW is a person who wants to rebel, fight, and win. Probably a person who didn't get enough attention as a child and is used to fight for attention (often with her siblings). A person who accepts that she will never be 100% loved so augmenting the amount of attention from 0% to 50% means a lot to her, as long as there is competition. Very often, these women admit that their fathers have had mistresses or even left the household for one. And sometimes, the OW is a child of a second wife who was a mistress or is even a product of an affair.

 

I myself grew up as a very unhappy (abused) step-child and believe that THAT is the reason why I married a guy with a child the first time - just to realize that it not only didn't cure my issues, but it manufactured more problems. I think our whole beings are built while we are children and later in life we just try to straighten the injustice (if any). That's why I am trying to give and show my kids as much love as possible. Anything can be postponed for tomorrow, but not cuddling and laughing with your children. Loving them is the best way to ensure that they won't get involved in unhealthy relationships such as OW-MM.

[addicted2love]

I'm just curious. How can you tell the difference?

 

I think there are men and women out there that will sleep around no matter what. They will flirt, cheat and seek out attention no matter what the cost. Even if they have a good SO at home who loves them and tries to fulfill their needs. These people I believe have addictive personalities. They always crave "more" attention, anywhere they can get it.

 

Then there are the people who try to make a bad relationship/marriage better for years on end. Have stayed out of responsibility, obligation, for the children etc. They meet a person that they would be better suited with and an A begins. These are the kind of people that may have said "I would never do that." It's not something that they are proud of or that they looked for. These types of people will fight the draw of OP in the beginning. These types of people will feel guilt over what they are doing but also believe they deserve happiness.

[reboot]

I think there are men and women out there that will sleep around no matter what. They will flirt, cheat and seek out attention no matter what the cost. Even if they have a good SO at home who loves them and tries to fulfill their needs. These people I believe have addictive personalities. They always crave "more" attention, anywhere they can get it.

 

Then there are the people who try to make a bad relationship/marriage better for years on end. Have stayed out of responsibility, obligation, for the children etc. They meet a person that they would be better suited with and an A begins. These are the kind of people that may have said "I would never do that." It's not something that they are proud of or that they looked for. These types of people will fight the draw of OP in the beginning. These types of people will feel guilt over what they are doing but also believe they deserve happiness.

I agree with all that 100%. But it didn't answer my question.

[addicted2love]

the only way for me to answer your question Reboot is to give you my own personal experience...I was trying to avoid that as I don't feel completely comfortable giving details here as I've been flamed before.

 

I'm married to a serial cheater. I tried hard to give him everything he needed. For years I gave and gave and worked on the relationship to make the marriage what I thought it had the potential to be. Nothing I ever did was good enough. I wasn't capeable of giving him what he needed, I now understand that no one can...that is up to him.

 

I'm one of the ones that said "I'd never do that". When I got married I vowed it was for life, I believed in my marriage vows whole heartedly. But after years of trying to make things better, giving everything I had and being the best wife I knew how to be I gave up. My view of my marriage was tarnished by my H. I no longer believe it can ever be the way I want it to be.

 

I'm sure you would tell me to get a D and move on. I think about doing that very thing every day. However, I look at my child and can not bare to turn my childs life upside down because I am unhappy. My H may not be a good H but he is a fabulous father. Parenting our child has been the one good solid thing that H and I do together consistantly.

 

As for MM....we have very similar M's. He has also tried for years to "do the right thing". Sometimes when the "right thing" isn't working you do what makes you happy. That's what we are doing. It doesn't make us bad people. We are not "serial cheaters" we wouldn't go looking for OP to fill a void.

[stampdaddy]

the only way for me to answer your question Reboot is to give you my own personal experience...I was trying to avoid that as I don't feel completely comfortable giving details here as I've been flamed before.

 

I'm married to a serial cheater. I tried hard to give him everything he needed. For years I gave and gave and worked on the relationship to make the marriage what I thought it had the potential to be. Nothing I ever did was good enough. I wasn't capeable of giving him what he needed, I now understand that no one can...that is up to him.

 

I'm one of the ones that said "I'd never do that". When I got married I vowed it was for life, I believed in my marriage vows whole heartedly. But after years of trying to make things better, giving everything I had and being the best wife I knew how to be I gave up. My view of my marriage was tarnished by my H. I no longer believe it can ever be the way I want it to be.

 

I'm sure you would tell me to get a D and move on. I think about doing that very thing every day. However, I look at my child and can not bare to turn my childs life upside down because I am unhappy. My H may not be a good H but he is a fabulous father. Parenting our child has been the one good solid thing that H and I do together consistantly.

 

As for MM....we have very similar M's. He has also tried for years to "do the right thing". Sometimes when the "right thing" isn't working you do what makes you happy. That's what we are doing. It doesn't make us bad people. We are not "serial cheaters" we wouldn't go looking for OP to fill a void.

 

Let me ask you this: IF your MM was single, and available for you what would you do then?? Be honest..

[reboot]

addicted2love,

 

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to defend yourself to me. I'm just having a polite conversation with another human being. My question was not intended to put you on the defensive. I've just heard comments like yours before, and I was genuinly curious how one knows the difference between a serial cheater and a MP in a bad marriage considering most serial cheaters will claim a bad M.

[addicted2love]

Let me ask you this: IF your MM was single, and available for you what would you do then?? Be honest..

 

I'd be with him...no doubt about it.

My situation is a little different, I've been in love w/ my MM for more than a decade. He's the one that got away. We have both agreed that if we had discovered that we still loved each other years ago before there were children involved we would have D'd then and would be together now.

[addicted2love]

addicted2love,

 

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to defend yourself to me. I'm just having a polite conversation with another human being. My question was not intended to put you on the defensive. I've just heard comments like yours before, and I was genuinly curious how one knows the difference between a serial cheater and a MP in a bad marriage considering most serial cheaters will claim a bad M.

 

I don't feel defensive, honestly. I'm trying to answer your question the only way I know how which is by telling you what I have personally experienced.

 

I am aware that a lot of MM tell thier OW that they are in bad M's.

My H told one of his OW terrible things about me. Things that couldn't be further from the truth. She was very surprised to find out that I wasn't the B-ich my H portrayed me to be.

[stampdaddy]

I'd be with him...no doubt about it.

My situation is a little different, I've been in love w/ my MM for more than a decade. He's the one that got away. We have both agreed that if we had discovered that we still loved each other years ago before there were children involved we would have D'd then and would be together now.

 

So, I am confused. In an earlier post you said that you can't imagine turning your son's life upside down, and that you and your H are good at parenting, but NOW you say that IF your MM was a SM, then you WOULD take that chance of turning things upside down for your happiness.. AND you and your exH would STILL be good at parenting, YOU would be happy, your exH may find what he is looking for and your son would be OK.. mine is! He is great. Of course there are residual effects that have to be dealt with, before, now and in the future, BUT wouldnt there be when children grow up in unhappy, unloving environments, hell, ANY environment these days??

[addicted2love]

So, I am confused. In an earlier post you said that you can't imagine turning your son's life upside down, and that you and your H are good at parenting, but NOW you say that IF your MM was a SM, then you WOULD take that chance of turning things upside down for your happiness.. AND you and your exH would STILL be good at parenting, YOU would be happy, your exH may find what he is looking for and your son would be OK.. mine is! He is great. Of course there are residual effects that have to be dealt with, before, now and in the future, BUT wouldnt there be when children grow up in unhappy, unloving environments, hell, ANY environment these days??

 

 

I confuse myself sometimes stamp.

Honestly...getting a D right now would be a selfish thing for me to do as far as my child is concerned. There's no fighting in my house. My child knows nothing but a happy home and is completely unaware of anything other than "family time". We are a great team when it comes to parenting and I realize we could be that way still in seperate house holds. But why?

 

I'm a product of D parents. I know with out a doubt that my parents both found happiness in thier second marriages and everyone was better for it including myself.

 

I know and have always known there there is one person in this world that has my heart. My MM. If he were single I'd take that chance. But he's not so I stay put and focus on my child. Why put my child through all that for nothing? I honestly don't see myself being with anyone but my MM. So for me to break up my family to go it alone is not enough reason for me to D. At least not yet...I might reach a breaking point one of these days but I'm not there yet.

[stampdaddy]

I confuse myself sometimes stamp.

Honestly...getting a D right now would be a selfish thing for me to do as far as my child is concerned. There's no fighting in my house. My child knows nothing but a happy home and is completely unaware of anything other than "family time". We are a great team when it comes to parenting and I realize we could be that way still in seperate house holds. But why?

 

I'm a product of D parents. I know with out a doubt that my parents both found happiness in thier second marriages and everyone was better for it including myself.

 

I know and have always known there there is one person in this world that has my heart. My MM. If he were single I'd take that chance. But he's not so I stay put and focus on my child. Why put my child through all that for nothing? I honestly don't see myself being with anyone but my MM. So for me to break up my family to go it alone is not enough reason for me to D. At least not yet...I might reach a breaking point one of these days but I'm not there yet.

 

THANK YOU AGAIN! for your honesty.. I can't imagine what my MW is going through, knowing that I have HER heart, her dreams, her goals, her spirit, her love and much more, but she has her M to her H.. It is SO strange to listen to her talk about them (c'mon, don't do it..). They are not friends, they have no goals other than the children, they dont "dream" about things, they never talk about things, they don't share things, again, other than the children, she doesnt even "know who he is".. He IS a good enough dad, and is not a jerk.. But my goodness, to hear her talk about them amazes me...

[White Flower]

I think it's rather a typical male trait to get bored within a year (not to bash the male species, but it's a sad true, from my own observation).

 

I am not sure that women date MM because they are safe. On the contrary, they fall in love with them, which makes them high-risk targets for the faint hearts. I think the danger of stealing someone from somebody (winning) excites them as well as the danger of getting caught (forbidden fruit).

 

I believe the psychological profile of the OW is a person who wants to rebel, fight, and win. Probably a person who didn't get enough attention as a child and is used to fight for attention (often with her siblings). A person who accepts that she will never be 100% loved so augmenting the amount of attention from 0% to 50% means a lot to her, as long as there is competition. Very often, these women admit that their fathers have had mistresses or even left the household for one. And sometimes, the OW is a child of a second wife who was a mistress or is even a product of an affair.

 

I myself grew up as a very unhappy (abused) step-child and believe that THAT is the reason why I married a guy with a child the first time - just to realize that it not only didn't cure my issues, but it manufactured more problems. I think our whole beings are built while we are children and later in life we just try to straighten the injustice (if any). That's why I am trying to give and show my kids as much love as possible. Anything can be postponed for tomorrow, but not cuddling and laughing with your children. Loving them is the best way to ensure that they won't get involved in unhealthy relationships such as OW-MM.

Wow, RC, you just described me...

[addicted2love]

THANK YOU AGAIN! for your honesty.. I can't imagine what my MW is going through, knowing that I have HER heart, her dreams, her goals, her spirit, her love and much more, but she has her M to her H.. It is SO strange to listen to her talk about them (c'mon, don't do it..). They are not friends, they have no goals other than the children, they dont "dream" about things, they never talk about things, they don't share things, again, other than the children, she doesnt even "know who he is".. He IS a good enough dad, and is not a jerk.. But my goodness, to hear her talk about them amazes me...

 

You've described me in a nut shell...I have all of these things w/ my MM as well. We laugh, dream, hope, share feelings etc. We've finally gotten comfortable talking about our children to each other. It was weird at first but now it's normal.

Like your MW...my H and I do not share the bond that I share w/ my MM.

We have mostly our child in common and not much else. My H isn't a "jerk" either. Which is why we don't fight. It has become a very easy laid back room mate situation. With the exeption of his multiple A's which I've come to understand are not my fault nor did they have anything at all to do with me. He is a good guy that suffers from very low self esteem and other "childhood" issues that he's never dealt with. Again not something I have any control over.

 

So I go through the motions of every day life and dream of a day where I can have a fulfilling full time relationship with my MM. As it stands now I'd rather have him in my life even if it's only on a part time basis than not at all. My MM and I don't even live near each other so all of our A is emotional. So for those who say it's all about the sex, they couldn't be more wrong at least in my case.

[stampdaddy]

You've described me in a nut shell...I have all of these things w/ my MM as well. We laugh, dream, hope, share feelings etc. We've finally gotten comfortable talking about our children to each other. It was weird at first but now it's normal.

Like your MW...my H and I do not share the bond that I share w/ my MM.

We have mostly our child in common and not much else. My H isn't a "jerk" either. Which is why we don't fight. It has become a very easy laid back room mate situation. With the exeption of his multiple A's which I've come to understand are not my fault nor did they have anything at all to do with me. He is a good guy that suffers from very low self esteem and other "childhood" issues that he's never dealt with. Again not something I have any control over.

 

So I go through the motions of every day life and dream of a day where I can have a fulfilling full time relationship with my MM. As it stands now I'd rather have him in my life even if it's only on a part time basis than not at all. My MM and I don't even live near each other so all of our A is emotional. So for those who say it's all about the sex, they couldn't be more wrong at least in my case.

 

Mine too, although...

 

Yeah, you at least have the R in tact, where mine is, well, I hope in a "holding pattern". I DO NOT want it back the way it was, we've gone down that road already. I have come to grips with the NC, and everyyday it gets a "little" easier. I'll be honest, the last 4 days I thought that at anytime she could have pulled into my driveway.. But this morning, Saturday, with all of the kids and H home, and all of the kids activities, I know it wont happen this weekend.. And I know on Monday/Tuesday etc.. for a few more days, I wouldnt be suprised either way, BUT, I know I dont want it until she can come to tell me she's done with M..

 

The thing that worries me are A) my emotions at Christmas and B) that I know this can end up taling a VERY long time.. OR, it could be tomorrow.. But I doubt it.. She WILL miss me and she hasnt even come close to saying "goodbye".. I am ALL AROUND her house as little, sweet reminders...

[White Flower]

Thanks for the "goodluck", I'll be OK, I think..

She really never gave a sob story, other than just no joy.. She wouldnt beat him up.. They just grew apart and really didnt have much in common as they got older, except the kids.. She had a lot of resentment built up from raising the kids basically alone.. Heck, just up until recently has he really spent any quality "one on one" with any of them.. Not saying he's a bad father at all, by the way.. When she was about 38 is when she started to realize, "what am I doing? am I happy?", which is common.. And I'll say this, there are NO pictures of them in the house, no "US" things, in 18 years of M, they have bought 2 pieces of furniture (he makes decent/good money), NO GROWTH as a couple (her words). It's like when the kids were born, the marriage stopped... Typical "I'm the man, I work at my job, EVERYTHING else is up to you..." I'm venting I guess..

Wow. You could be describing us, except for the # of married years. I would loooove to talk to your OW! PM me when you get the chance, OK?

 

BTW, that was a beautiful message you wrote to her this morning, Stamp. Does she know you post here? It wouldn't take me long to pack it up if I got a letter like that!

[stampdaddy]

Wow. You could be describing us, except for the # of married years. I would loooove to talk to your OW! PM me when you get the chance, OK?

 

BTW, that was a beautiful message you wrote to her this morning, Stamp. Does she know you post here? It wouldn't take me long to pack it up if I got a letter like that!

 

I can't PM yet.. Thanks re: the letter... THAT is how I have felt about her EVERYDAY, and will forever.. I hope I get the chance to show her everyday. For now, I hope I am showing her by giving her space....

[reboot]

It wouldn't take me long to pack it up if I got a letter like that!

pfffttt.... women are so easy....

 

:D:D