scratch Posted December 6, 2007 Posted December 6, 2007 However easygoing a woman might be, if she has any sense and self esteem at all, she won't let herself be bullied or ridiculed into trusting a guy she's not ready to trust. Getting angry, offended or mocking a woman because "you don't trust me" a short time into the acquaintance is unpleasant, manipulative and transparent behaviour. The belief is that a woman's trust is something you have automatic rights to, and that any woman who doesn't co-operate with that belief has some sort of problem, betrays an attitude that would put a lot of women on instant Rohypnol alert and encourage them to discreetly phone for a cab. You're off the mark here. In my experience, if a woman likes me, she trusts me. I'm somewhat sensitive to not placing them in situations where they feel the need to express their boundaries, but I think nothing of inviting a woman over on the second date for a dinner I prepare. I like to cook, and to hang out in my house, so it's the first thing that comes to mind. If she says no, it's disappointing, much more so than if she comes over and puts on the brakes during a makeout session. And, a big reason that it's disappointing is that I'm insulted she didn't trust me to respect her physical boundaries. Obviously, I'm not advocating attempts to twist her arm into changing her mind, but it still feels crappy to be told you're not trusted in that regard. It's not a matter of entitlement, but rather, receiving the benefit if the doubt from someone in whom you're interested.
MystifiedByMen Posted December 6, 2007 Posted December 6, 2007 Or you could say "I really wanted to see xyz movie" and that you've had a really long week working hard and would love to actually get out and do something. Then suggest that you go to the movie instead of staying in. He'll think its cool that you like to get out and do things. Plus you get out of the possible weird situation.
Author fray718 Posted December 7, 2007 Author Posted December 7, 2007 SG, how far did u go with him on the third date? My guy friend said that if u go over to a guy's place, and unless u go to at least third base with him, then u risk becoming fwb. I don't understand why though. Is what he said true?
Star Gazer Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 We got really frisky. No clothes were removed though. But it really doesn't matter how far we went and when. All that matters is I made my boundaries clear and he respected them. Frankly, if there's any "test" that's to be employed, it's this one: set up the boundaries, and if they continue to try to push past them or convince you to let go of them, they're not the right guy for you.
Krytie TV Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 The art of anticipation has been lost. People begin pawing in relationships so quickly that there's no "build up". Not that this has much relevance, but I didn't even kiss my last gf until the 4th date, and that's all that happened... The build up was awesome. So Fray, I support the idea of letting it build. We all know that if you were to go to his house for a "movie", it would be a grope fest. Nothing wrong with letting the anticipation build. So much better than the act... the anticipation.
lindya Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 You're off the mark here. In my experience, if a woman likes me, she trusts me. I'm somewhat sensitive to not placing them in situations where they feel the need to express their boundaries, but I think nothing of inviting a woman over on the second date for a dinner I prepare. I like to cook, and to hang out in my house, so it's the first thing that comes to mind. If she says no, it's disappointing, much more so than if she comes over and puts on the brakes during a makeout session. And, a big reason that it's disappointing is that I'm insulted she didn't trust me to respect her physical boundaries. Obviously, I'm not advocating attempts to twist her arm into changing her mind, but it still feels crappy to be told you're not trusted in that regard. It's not a matter of entitlement, but rather, receiving the benefit if the doubt from someone in whom you're interested. That's fair enough, but I reacted to the "one of those girls" phrase. Maybe over-reacted...but if a woman makes an error of judgement regarding who she should trust, the consequences can be pretty dire for her. In the same way, a man takes a risk every time he takes a woman he doesn't really know home. "What if I have sex with her, and she subsequently freaks out and accuses me of being a rapist? Can I trust this woman I don't really know to be stable and not do something like that?" Obviously in practice people do tend to take these risks and luckily in the vast majority of cases the other person won't abuse their trust or turn out to be nuts. On the other hand, sometimes it does go wrong. If it does, and if that results in a woman (or her friends) exercising increased caution in the future, it seems rather unfair that she should be dismissed as "one of those girls" (ie who doesn't think any man should be trusted). I agree that it's frustrating and disappointing when someone you like doesn't seem able to trust you. Sometimes there comes a point when you just have to give up on them. What I got from Sunblast's post was a very simplistic take which suggested that if a woman's trust is going to take more than a couple of dates to win, she's probably not worth bothering with. I don't think that attitude is either realistic or does anything to help people figure out how to create/win/give trust.
scratch Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 That's fair enough, but I reacted to the "one of those girls" phrase. Maybe over-reacted...but if a woman makes an error of judgement regarding who she should trust, the consequences can be pretty dire for her. In the same way, a man takes a risk every time he takes a woman he doesn't really know home. "What if I have sex with her, and she subsequently freaks out and accuses me of being a rapist? Can I trust this woman I don't really know to be stable and not do something like that?" I don't think you're looking at the situation from an accurate perspective. Is she afraid of being forced to be physical against her will, or does she fear a situation where he'll lose interest because she rejected his advances? If it's the former, you're right and I'm wrong. The analogy of a rape accusation is a straw man argument, as you alluded to in the following paragraph. In human history, no man (except celebrities) has decided to delay sex due to a fear of such an accusation. Obviously in practice people do tend to take these risks and luckily in the vast majority of cases the other person won't abuse their trust. On the other hand, sometimes it does go wrong. If it does, and if that results in a woman (or her friends) exercising increased caution in the future, it seems rather unfair that she should be dismissed as "one of those girls" (ie who doesn't think any man should be trusted). I agree, the "one of the girls" phrase thoroughly undermined his credibility. Caution isn't bad or wrong, but it will naturally have consequences in that those around whom you act with caution will likely be put off. A a theme on this site I speak against frequently involves people refusing to acknowledge that their decisions, even right decisions, should have consequences. I agree that it's frustrating and disappointing when someone you like doesn't seem able to trust you. Sometimes there comes a point when you just have to give up on them. What I got from Sunblast's post was a very simplistic take which amounts to "if a woman's trust is going to take more than a couple of dates to win, just ditch her." I don't think that attitude is either realistic, or anything to help people figure out how to create/win/give trust. A useful interpretation of his point would be "if a woman doesn't trust me to a degree I find reasonable or adequate from the beginning, it's likely to be an uphill battle, and I need to assess if she's worth it."
wizer Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 k i called n said stuff like i'd probably be more comfortable watching a movie in a theater for now but we can do the movie at his place another time Well done. I'm glad my advice worked for you and you kept it honest. It's a good basis to start a relationship.
Author fray718 Posted December 7, 2007 Author Posted December 7, 2007 Well done. I'm glad my advice worked for you and you kept it honest. It's a good basis to start a relationship. thanks for your advice. I was debating whether I should be honest with him and given the circumstances and my (small) history with him, I think (and hope) I made the right choice. SG, actually my thought was exactly like yours....I initially wanted to just make out and stop if he tries to go further. And I couldn't understand why my guy friend and all the guys on this board remained adamant that I not go over. I think guys and girls must think really differently. This time I took a risk and went against my own instincts and decided to follow what the guys said because after all I'm dating a guy. I hope I made the right decision. It's crazy how in dating little things like this can make or break the relationship because its so fragile in the beginning stages.
lindya Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Caution isn't bad or wrong, but it will naturally have consequences in that those around whom you act with caution will likely be put off. A a theme on this site I speak against frequently involves people refusing to acknowledge that their decisions, even right decisions, should have consequences. I wouldn't see it as "should" have consequences, because that almost suggests a punitive "I'll show you for not trusting me" approach. People don't tend to be cautious or slow to trust out of mischief or to make other people feel bad about themselves. I do agree, though, caution and trust issues do have troublesome consequences in all kinds of situations. The OP seemed to feel uncomfortable about going to the guy's house primarily because she didn't know what his expectations were and she was worried about causing disappointment, annoyance or frustration if he had certain expectations of the evening that she didn't meet. Failing to meet other people's expectations may be as crappy a feeling as not being trusted. So rather than going into an uncertain situation that might end up being awkward for both of them and maybe even resulting in some ill feeling, she avoids it by saying "I'm not comfortable." He might take that as an accusation from her along the lines of "you made me feel uncomfortable - or, at least, you didn't manage make me feel comfortable". Some sign of responsibility or failure on his part. If that's how he feels, then he's bound to get pissed off. He would probably feel less annoyed if he viewed it in terms of "not feeling comfortable around people she doesn't know that well is her issue. Maybe it's circumstantial, maybe it's temperamental, but it's her issue and not a reflection on me. I know I'm trustworthy. I'll try to help her feel comfortable, but I refuse to beat myself up about it or take things personally if that doesn't work." OP, I'm glad you managed to work things out.
wizer Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 For god's sake, listen to sunblaster. Geesh Huh? Listen to the person who had this nonsense to say? No WONDER why people on LS are mostly single -- they listen to other LS'ers' advice. This girl is gonna tell this guy about the movie, he will see she is "one of those girls" who looks at men like she can't have them over alone because men "can't be trusted" and he will get that. OP, you did great. A reasonable guy will understand your apprehension about going to his place without knowing him really well. There ARE guys out there who exploit women who put themselves in unsafe situations and you have every reason to be careful. If anything, if he's a secure guy with only good intentions, he will respect you more for your good judgement and he won't take it personally.
Krytie TV Posted December 8, 2007 Posted December 8, 2007 Huh? Listen to the person who had this nonsense to say? They're probably the same person.
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