Chrome Barracuda Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 Chrome, I am not negating his pain at all. Simply put. Pain or not, he cannot continue to take it out verbally on her. It is not conducive to his healing. Sometimes things have to be done for the betrayer too. It does not seem that she cares about his pain, but that's not the issue. They divorced. It is in his best interests to stop rehashing it every time he sees her. Its hampering his healing, if he even wants it. Not a child of divorce, but was definitely abandoned by dad for a minute. I hurt for years over it. But its over now. I am an adult. I don't have to let his poor choices define me. And that is what her ex seems to be doing. Letting her A color the rest of his life. There is nothing to be gained from that. Unless he is just trying to make himself look better. Without more info from the OP, we really have no idea as to the character of her ex. Sure, she comes across as callous, but maybe she is tired of the putdowns. Just because she cheated doesn't make her unrespectable (especially if she is good enough to be a co-parent). There may be other aspects of her character to do so, but I am just not willing to go there when she is asking about his actions that he is still doing - not hers that have presumably stopped. He is only hurting himself - and anyone that has to listen to him. I understand but it's probably hard for him to forget, the pain is still fresh in his mind. She should be trying to reduce the pain but she hasnt posted on that trying to help him heal. I aint saying he's right in berating her, not at all. But I think as a man it's probably harder for him to forgive because she's acting like she doesnt care. One ioata of remorse or care from her could ease his pain. That's what alot of people need to understand. I think a man could work through being cheated on but if you have no remorse about it, A man is gonna stay angry and use that anger to fuel him, it's the only thing to him that feels real. It's the only thing he got right now. Sooner or later he'll get through it, it's just today isnt that day. No man who wants to have a family wants to be a part time dad. that isnt right. She needs to understand the serverity of destroying his dreams and act accordingly. If I had an Exit affair I would take all the blame I would not act contrite about it and understand where my betrayed spouse is coming from because they invested everything in me and I failed them! I cant blame them for being angry with me. I just gotta take the pain and reassure them to understand it was never about hurting them, I have to live with that. Showing true remorse can guarantee you forgiveness. If alot of WW's and WH's knew that they wouldnt have their exes jumping down their throats all the damn time. But if you aint remorseful about the pain you inflict on other's why should anyone be about the way they treat you.
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 No...I was correct the first time...SHE isn't worth his time....time to move on it is for him..but she isn't worth his time because of what she is. you aren't 'correct' in what you said. it's your opinion. one person may have hurt you. it doesn't mean that everyone is the same or has the same circumstances. and it doesn't mean that you had no part in causing what happened to you. people make mistakes. yes, they can be bad mistakes, but that doesn't mean they are evil and can't ever learn from what they've done that hasn't (or has, in some cases) worked out in their favour.
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 She should be trying to reduce the pain but she hasnt posted on that trying to help him heal. why? they ended it. neither of them owes the other anything. if they were trying to work out their relationship, then yes, she should be trying to help him heal. but they're not together now, so it's all over.
Chrome Barracuda Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 why? they ended it. neither of them owes the other anything. if they were trying to work out their relationship, then yes, she should be trying to help him heal. but they're not together now, so it's all over. Of course, but a damn apology would be nice!
Trimmer Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 Either way' date=' he needs to accept that it happened and stop trying to hurt her by constantly bringing it up in the most derogatory of ways.[/quote']I'm going to reply to this using words from Kenzie, completely opposite to the context in which they were intended, but, well, it should apply both ways, shouldn't it?why? they ended it. neither of them owes the other anything. if they were trying to work out their relationship, then yes, [he] should be trying to [blank]. but they're not together now, so it's all over. And now, my own words, and I think here, you and I agree, NID: they do still both owe their child a willingness to work on being the best parents they can be. If it weren't for that, they could go to opposite corners of the country and never deal with each other again, but they do have a shared responsibility to the child, and therefore, some responsibilities to each other, to make their parental relationship work. In my own situation, I'm effectively in schweetpea's husband's position: we have kids together, wife started an outside relationship, then left the marriage, no real useful closure given, great anger on my part born significantly of fear of being a solo father, and as Chrome Barracuda has said, a dashing of the dream I had of providing my children with a "whole" family during their development towards adulthood. I felt like my anger was righteous - and I feel a resonance with much of Chrome's points about what the husband is likely feeling. But I found my way out of it by realizing that my "wife" was gone, but the "mother of my children" was still going to be an important person in my life, and it was important for me to continue making that relationship work. All we can hope is that he will find the strength to move towards "normalizing relations" with schweetpea. It's a fair argument, as has been applied here to both of them, that they don't "owe each other anything", but I'll say it again: that applies to them as spouses; they do both owe their child a willingness to try to work together as parents, even as they have to put away their spousal roles forever. I was lucky in several ways. First, in the one and only bit of clear thinking I did during that awful time, I committed to keeping a strong focus on doing what was right for my kids; that helped catalyze my actions in the immediate aftermath, start my healing as a separate individual, and keep me from moving into a cave, becoming a bitter guy for the rest of my life. Second, eventually my ex, the mother of my children, looked me in the eye and said, simply, "I f***ed up; I'm sorry", and although it was too late to change anything between us as spouses at that point (since we had both left that relationship behind), it helped to further ease any remaining tension between us as co-parents. In the end, we established a good, supportive parental relationship, with clear boundaries, but with flexibility, respect, a willingness to each give a little more than 50%, and a focus on the kids. So, schweetpea, I don't know what to tell you about how to "get him" to find his strength, release his fear and anger, and move into a more productive parental role with you. Indeed, that is his own road now, but at the same time, it is a road you left him on when you turned away. If it's a valid point that you don't owe him any consideration, in terms of "giving him closure" or apologizing or helping him heal, then I think it follows that it's also a fair point that he doesn't owe you any particular time table for his healing. As Chrome has described, and as I myself have experienced, anger and fear are a part of his road, and the more lost he feels, the more adrift he feels he has been cast, the more intense those will be, and likely the longer the healing process will be. One suggestion I can make is to try to swing your interactions with him around to being as completely "parental" as possible, and trying to avoid or redirect things when "spousal" issues and anger come up. I found it a powerful tool in my recovery to imagine my ex as different characters, "wife" and "parent", and realizing that my anger was directed at "wife" helped me to interact with "parent" on a much more even basis. If you can try to keep your interactions with him on a strictly parental level, that may help you in that role, and it may start to shape your future interactions with him. I'm not going to make any assumptions, as some have done above, that you are without remorse. Even in my 'role' of a betrayed spouse, I can accept your statement as a whole: "I cheated, I wanted too, I enjoyed it and I'm sorry for it at the same time." I know extremists will jump on you for saying it "I enjoyed it," but I don't see that as negating your remorse afterward. C'mon, guys... at least let her be honest; isn't that the first thing we ask for in infidelity situations? So I can accept those who believe you don't "owe him" (your ex-spouse) an apology, any expressions of remorse or any help with 'closure'. But you might consider whether a voluntary gesture of that sort (if you haven't already offered it) might lubricate the rails that lead into the future, towards your developing relationship as co-parents.
FearNoMore Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 Good for you...nobody should have to settle being with a cheater. Yes, you're right there! I tried but it didn't work for me so I left him. No doubt, he made me happy during the years we were together but the cheating... it wrecked the good image I had of him. Nobody should settle being with a cheater... trust me on that. I respect those who made it through the cheatings, they are strong in my eyes but I can't. The pain is unbearable.
bish Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 people make mistakes. yes, they can be bad mistakes cheating isn't a mistake...its a conscious decision to betray someone so the cheater can get their personal gratification. cheating is never a mistake. but that doesn't mean they are evil and can't ever learn from what they've done It doesn't mean they are decent people either. As far as learning from what they have done...sure, I can give you that...but I believe only a small percentage...VERY small....really ever change and learn anything from being a cheater.....learn anything positive towards changing that is. So am I going to take a chance with someone who is a known cheater in hopes that they are not in that minute percentage? No.
bish Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 Yes, you're right there! I tried but it didn't work for me so I left him. No doubt, he made me happy during the years we were together but the cheating... it wrecked the good image I had of him. Nobody should settle being with a cheater... trust me on that. I respect those who made it through the cheatings, they are strong in my eyes but I can't. The pain is unbearable. Absolutely right. But don't misunderstand.....I am not besting anyone that makes the decision to try to stay...I understand the need to try for whatever reason....for me, I just don't see the point in giving a cheater a 2nd chance.
bish Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 So am I going to take a chance with someone who is a known cheater in hopes that they are not in that minute percentage? No. Correction....that they are IN that minute percentage.
Trimmer Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 So am I going to take a chance with someone who is a known cheater in hopes that they are not in that minute percentage? No. bish, it may shock you to find that this thread is not about you taking a chance with a cheater... Absolutely right. But don't misunderstand.....I am not besting anyone that makes the decision to try to stay...I understand the need to try for whatever reason....for me, I just don't see the point in giving a cheater a 2nd chance. OK, you've made your opinion very clear, but it's off topic in this thread. This is neither about considering a second chance, nor about beating on the OP to convince her that she did something wrong (which she already stated in her opening post) but rather, it's about how they can still work together as parents in a civil way for the good of their child. Anyone who wouldn't find that a good enough reason for both of them to give a little bit is way too bitter for me.
Chrome Barracuda Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 bish, it may shock you to find that this thread is not about you taking a chance with a cheater... OK, you've made your opinion very clear, but it's off topic in this thread. This is neither about considering a second chance, nor about beating on the OP to convince her that she did something wrong (which she already stated in her opening post) but rather, it's about how they can still work together as parents in a civil way for the good of their child. Anyone who wouldn't find that a good enough reason for both of them to give a little bit is way too bitter for me. IT's not all about being bitter, if she's wrong she needs to apologize about that. Simple as that. An apology from the heart goes a long way. That's all it boils down to.
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 cheating isn't a mistake...its a conscious decision to betray someone so the cheater can get their personal gratification. cheating is never a mistake. It doesn't mean they are decent people either. As far as learning from what they have done...sure, I can give you that...but I believe only a small percentage...VERY small....really ever change and learn anything from being a cheater.....learn anything positive towards changing that is. So am I going to take a chance with someone who is a known cheater in hopes that they are not in that minute percentage? No. i meant 'mistake' as in doing something that maybe shouldn't have been done, but was done anyway. i suggest you read the definitions of words before you disagree with their meaning. cheating is a mistake--no one is saying it's an unintentional accident. in any case, you really need help, so why not start your own thread? whoever said this thread isn't about you is absolutely right. so, where is the original poster anyway?
bish Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 bish, it may shock you to find that this thread is not about you taking a chance with a cheater... It may also be equally as shocking that I was responding to someone elses notion that cheaters may change....that was also off topic...but I see you didn't feel the need to harp on that did ya? OK, you've made your opinion very clear, but it's off topic in this thread. Alot of the posts in this thread are off topic. Jump on them too while you are on the thread purity bandwagon.
bish Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 i meant 'mistake' as in doing something that maybe shouldn't have been done, but was done anyway. i suggest you read the definitions of words before you disagree with their meaning. cheating is a mistake--no one is saying it's an unintentional accident. in any case, you really need help, so why not start your own thread? whoever said this thread isn't about you is absolutely right. You'd do well to take your own advice. Whoever said this thread is off topic now is right...you are just as guilty.
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 You'd do well to take your own advice. Whoever said this thread is off topic now is right...you are just as guilty. not really, but you needed to see the error of your ways. i am sure the OP, wherever she is, won't mind, since your 'advice' is tailored to your personal thoughts only, which isn't helping her. so yeah, i'm not guilty of anything. and also, in keeping with the topic, not all cheaters need to make an actual 'change'. read the original post again--she doesn't feel guilty, she wanted to do it, she enjoyed it, she moved on. no one knows what her relationship was really like but her; he may have made some equally bad mistakes as well (whether or not they are equal is an opinion, and not just yours.) you cheat in some relationships and not in others, meaning it's something you do, or just don't do. it isn't always a conscious effort to change a continuous behavior, unless you have cheated repeatedly in one relationship and can't seem to stop yourself from doing it, or end that relationship. it's kind of like lying--everyone lies in some situations, but it doesn't make every person who told a lie some kind of 'damn dirty liar.' anyway, this is old, seeing the same things from you over and over again. good luck to you.
Chrome Barracuda Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 not really, but you needed to see the error of your ways. i am sure the OP, wherever she is, won't mind, since your 'advice' is tailored to your personal thoughts only, which isn't helping her. so yeah, i'm not guilty of anything. and also, in keeping with the topic, not all cheaters need to make an actual 'change'. read the original post again--she doesn't feel guilty, she wanted to do it, she enjoyed it, she moved on. no one knows what her relationship was really like but her; he may have made some equally bad mistakes as well (whether or not they are equal is an opinion, and not just yours.) you cheat in some relationships and not in others, meaning it's something you do, or just don't do. it isn't always a conscious effort to change a continuous behavior, unless you have cheated repeatedly in one relationship and can't seem to stop yourself from doing it, or end that relationship. it's kind of like lying--everyone lies in some situations, but it doesn't make every person who told a lie some kind of 'damn dirty liar.' anyway, this is old, seeing the same things from you over and over again. good luck to you. As always blame the guy because he could be doing just as worse, Why do people always do this. She hasnt said anything about him cheating or anything of that nature why do people always assume that about the betrayed one??? WTF? And you know what in the end, cheating is a choice!!!! It is never a mistake, you can spin it like a republican all you want but you know what happens when you get nakid with another man and sleep with him, it was a choice! As any woman will atest to, sleeping with a certain man is their choice! not a mistake!
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 5, 2007 Posted December 5, 2007 As always blame the guy because he could be doing just as worse, Why do people always do this. She hasnt said anything about him cheating or anything of that nature why do people always assume that about the betrayed one??? WTF? And you know what in the end, cheating is a choice!!!! It is never a mistake, you can spin it like a republican all you want but you know what happens when you get nakid with another man and sleep with him, it was a choice! As any woman will atest to, sleeping with a certain man is their choice! not a mistake! once again, see a dictionary, entry:mistake. it's not spinning anything at all. sometimes the choices we make are mistakes, in that we used judgment that could have been better, but didn't. (oh, and i'm not a republican.) also, while i do respect your opinion, chrome, i think you misunderstood my post. i didn't say the guy did anything wrong or that anyone should assume he did, i am saying we don't know anything about else their relationship, so you can't assume anything either way. it's only fair to look at it both ways because, unlike you said, people actually don't always assume the betrayed one has faults, it's the opposite--to the point that no matter what the other person did, the cheater is worse simply because it involved sex. i just don't see it that way, but i can see what your saying, and i can appreciate your response, for what it's worth. not trying to attack you at all, so i hope you're not taking it that way. i just try to explain things from another perspective because i know those who have been hurt will often only see it one way, every time, and it just isn't so.
Author schweetpea Posted December 7, 2007 Author Posted December 7, 2007 Wow. Thank you all for your posts. I didn't think I would get any replies here. A lot of great opinions came up many I agree with and many I don't. I guess I can give some background. Lets see, I have owned up to my cheating. I have apologized several times to my ex. We are not divorced as of yet. We have been separated for a year and a half. I initiated divorce proceedings a LONG time ago, however he will not grant me one. I have asked for absolutely nothing from him except $150.00 a week for child support which he is under court order to pay, however he rarely does. He makes around $80,000 a year and I am dumbfounded. I am currently unemployed because I recently graduated with my Master's. He has been verbally abusive and physically abusive since our separation and has behaved this way in front of our son. I know what I did was wrong in the eyes of God and society, but to me it wasn't. I cheated, I told him within a week of my behavior, I apologized many times, I am still seeing the other man and I am pregnant with his child, however we do not live together or have plans to do so. Still no divorce. I honestly do not know what the ex is thinking. He sends me daily txts about how he wants to be with me and when I tell him I don't want the same thing he becomes abusive.
Author schweetpea Posted December 7, 2007 Author Posted December 7, 2007 Wow. Thank you all for your posts. I didn't think I would get any replies here. A lot of great opinions came up many I agree with and many I don't. I guess I can give some background. Lets see, I have owned up to my cheating. I have apologized several times to my ex. We are not divorced as of yet. We have been separated for a year and a half. I initiated divorce proceedings a LONG time ago, however he will not grant me one. I have asked for absolutely nothing from him except $150.00 a week for child support which he is under court order to pay, however he rarely does. He makes around $80,000 a year and I am dumbfounded. I am currently unemployed because I recently graduated with my Master's. He has been verbally abusive and physically abusive since our separation and has behaved this way in front of our son. I know what I did was wrong in the eyes of God and society, but to me it wasn't. I cheated, I told him within a week of my behavior, I apologized many times, I am still seeing the other man and I am pregnant with his child, however we do not live together or have plans to do so. Still no divorce. I honestly do not know what the ex is thinking. He sends me daily txts about how he wants to be with me and when I tell him I don't want the same thing he becomes abusive.
KenzieAbsolutely Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Wow. Thank you all for your posts. I didn't think I would get any replies here. A lot of great opinions came up many I agree with and many I don't. I guess I can give some background. Lets see, I have owned up to my cheating. I have apologized several times to my ex. We are not divorced as of yet. We have been separated for a year and a half. I initiated divorce proceedings a LONG time ago, however he will not grant me one. I have asked for absolutely nothing from him except $150.00 a week for child support which he is under court order to pay, however he rarely does. He makes around $80,000 a year and I am dumbfounded. I am currently unemployed because I recently graduated with my Master's. He has been verbally abusive and physically abusive since our separation and has behaved this way in front of our son. I know what I did was wrong in the eyes of God and society, but to me it wasn't. I cheated, I told him within a week of my behavior, I apologized many times, I am still seeing the other man and I am pregnant with his child, however we do not live together or have plans to do so. Still no divorce. I honestly do not know what the ex is thinking. He sends me daily txts about how he wants to be with me and when I tell him I don't want the same thing he becomes abusive. and yet still, you're seen as the only bad one here by some because you cheated. how silly. i think what your almost-ex-husband is doing is just as bad if not worse. it sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do, and you're best staying apart from him. don't listen to the people here who condemn you for this. sure, cheating is not a great thing to do, but you had your reasons, you've figured yourself out, and it's a done deal. there isn't anything else you can do. the people here who treat you like you're nothing because you cheated are people who have been cheated on, and so they only see the situation as being your fault, and the problem is only you. they see it like this: it doesn't matter if you're husband was a jerk, you cheated. it doesn't matter if he has stalkerish behaviour and treats you badly, because you cheated; it doesn't matter if he starts leaving dead animals on your doorstep....you cheated! they can't help but see it that way because they don't know any better and don't know any other way because they have been hurt so badly that their judgment is clouded. they say things like 'you're not worth it' because it makes them feel better; it's a lot of misplaced anger and i hope it doesn't stop you from coming here. good luck to you and your baby and your new life. cheating isn't great, but in your case, i think it opened up a new door for you, and closed the door on what might have ended up a bad relationship anyway. see what you can do about getting him to sign the papers, no matter what. there has to be a way. keep records of everything he says and does, and get a good lawyer. i wish you the best.
NoIDidn't Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 I consider his actions abusive as well. I don't really want to know the reasons for cheating on him as what's done is done. Can't be changed or taken back. Considering that you are now pregnant by the OM may have something to do with his anger. Why hasn't the D been made final yet? It has to be more than him just not signing papers. Where I live, whether the other wants the D or not, after its filed and signed by the person requesting it, it is done in a year. Just go to the courthouse and pay for the remainder of the fees and you are officially divorced. Whether the other partner signed it or not. But his talking about it in front of your child has got to stop. It will only make your child with him resent the child with the OM. I know. My dad tried to do it with me and my Mom never cheated on him. Calling my mom names and saying negative things about the child she was carrying. All in front of me when I was just 2/3. I really think he needs to grow up. Its not about the cheating anymore. Its about his bad behavior that he doesn't have any excuse for other than that he is angry. If he really wanted you back, he should be the complete opposite of what he is being.
White Flower Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 I really think he needs to grow up. Its not about the cheating anymore. Its about his bad behavior that he doesn't have any excuse for other than that he is angry. If he really wanted you back, he should be the complete opposite of what he is being. Well said. This is the core of the issue. If he really took a hard look at himself he would understand the bigger picture. Perhaps he is also angry at himself.
atlasshrugged Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 why dont you talk to the guy you betrayed your husband with, obviously he was more important than your child and your husband right? I'm sure you need to vent and i know you have feelings too, but the hardship you're going throught is nothing compaired to what you put your family through. Sorry to say it but its what you deserve.
White Flower Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 why dont you talk to the guy you betrayed your husband with, obviously he was more important than your child and your husband right? I'm sure you need to vent and i know you have feelings too, but the hardship you're going throught is nothing compaired to what you put your family through. Sorry to say it but its what you deserve. It's not fair to compare one to the other when you were not there.
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