I saw him with her...

[Gwyneth]

You got it.. I am the Mother Theresa of married men..

 

 

:laugh:

 

Cute!

[Gwyneth]

I don't believe in the karma thing either. I use it as a joke--bad things happen to every one, and good things happen to every one. Doesn't matter what you have done.

 

What goes around comes around? Sometimes...but before you're even born, your whole life is planned out. That's my theory. So every thing you do was supposed to happen. I think I believe that.

[Lizzie60]

I don't believe in the karma thing either. I use it as a joke--bad things happen to every one, and good things happen to every one. Doesn't matter what you have done.

 

What goes around comes around? Sometimes...but before you're even born, your whole life is planned out. That's my theory. So every thing you do was supposed to happen. I think I believe that.

 

I believe my life is run by karma just as much as my life is run by astrology..

[RecordProducer]

Ya know I luvs ya anyway!

You are too old for Lizzie.

 

Beyond me getting bigger....ummm....better , you didn't deserve that. I'm ashamed of myself.

In which area are you getting bigger, Curm? I might be interested in operating that area.

 

 

Same here.. I never understood why a woman would put up with so much cheating.. He even slept with HER sister... so you can imagine how dependant on him she is... ewwwwww

I am not so shocked that he slept with her sister as much as I am shocked that her sister slept with him. Would you sleep with your sister's husband?

 

no he is a liar. He wants to come off as this poor nice young guy stuck in a relationship so he doesn't seem like a jerk

I actually believe this might be true.

 

That he is in love with a woman who is older than his mom?

Why wouldn't he be in love with Lizzie? It's her who can't fall in love with an immature hot body. He could very well be in love with the self-confident woman she is. Why would he continuously have sex with her if there is no chance for him to fall in love with her? Some men like older women, just like some women like older men (I am one of them). Are you listening, Curm?

 

Good as long as you know about it...

 

ps I thought you were a female..

Owl was female, but he changed gender.

 

.

Unless you have never bought a cotton white t-shirt or a pair of faded jeans, or shopped at Walmart then you are 100% responsible for the labour abuse of children in Burkina Fasso or Puebla or Bangladesh. Children that go home with bleeding eyes and coughing up blood due to the fumes injested in the non-ventilated quarters they work in 15 hr days for $5 a month.

This is so upsetting. The horrible thing is if we stop buying the products, they will starve to death. You can't raise their salaries and by removing the kids from work, you will only starve them. It's a horrible, horrible world out there. We living in the first-world countries and even in the second-world countries, like my former, are really blessed. I would gladly pay more for my products if that would make those kids eat better, but I know that many people don't care as long as they can save money. Every time I trash food I think about 1/3 of the world who don't eat every day. I've cried about it, but what can I really do? In the meanwhile I am trying not to hurt the ones whose lives I CAN affect. What I am saying is I really like the idealistic attitudes you're cherishing Tomcat, but we can't forget the world we live in. I don't blame the OW, I do blame the MM and the poor children won't make me lower down my moral criteria. In any case, cuddos to you for caring about the third-world countries. I care, too. But, that's all I can do, because human nature is greedy and evil. You can cut a few branches, but you can't cut the root unless you change people.

 

So it's the old "Madonna/Whore" rearing it's head again?

Except in the male version...?

It's not "except in the male version." He sees the wife as a saint and the mistress as a whore.

 

Whatever MM invests in Lizzie...money, time...ESPECIALLY emotions...he's now NOT investing in his wife, or his family.

Many marriages do better during an affair, actually! Anyway, this woman is not a wife and she knows about his cheating. Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for a young woman who is not married, has no kids with the guy, knows he is cheating and is staying with him. Why the hell feel sorry for her? Can't she leave him? Is she entitled to him by birth? I know what he is doing with her - loving her insecure dependency, but why is she with him?

 

If I were to find myself in that same situation, I can't imagine how I could possibly see that I didn't CAUSE damage to the marriage. How do you really avoid responsibility for that?

You're talking about MARRIAGE as if it's something very important. It's just a stupid marriage. After having two failed marriages, I feel the ridiculosuness of this community very strongly.

 

The wife is innocent and the OW is a whore and a bitch. I've never been an OW and I've been a wife, but if the OW doesn't stalk the MM, how is she hurting the wife? Did SHE make vows to the wife or did HE make them? I think Bill Gates is rich enough so he doesn't have to SELL me programs, he can just donate them to me. Is it his responsibility that I am not rich? The MM hurt his wife the moment he decided to cheat even if there was no OW around. He is responsible for bringing the risk of STD's and making his own partner miserable. Marriages fail and people stop loving each other. The STD's a re a big problem, but other than that - frankly, I don't care that my husbands never cheated on me when they left me. It's the same as if they did. But they hurt me. So what? Am I entitled to their love forever? Should I burn them at a stake for breaking my heart? It's so pathetic to be so emotionally dependent on someone that you can't just say "OK, he is a cheater, F him, and move on."

 

Oh I see we should take care of our own community the rest of the world can eat sht and die.

That's a commedable attitude.

 

But heck as long as I keep my legs closed in my community then I am an outstanding citizen.

This gave me such a hard laugh!

[OpenBook]

The wife is innocent and the OW is a whore and a bitch. I've never been an OW and I've been a wife, but if the OW doesn't stalk the MM, how is she hurting the wife? Did SHE make vows to the wife or did HE make them? I think Bill Gates is rich enough so he doesn't have to SELL me programs, he can just donate them to me. Is it his responsibility that I am not rich? The MM hurt his wife the moment he decided to cheat even if there was no OW around. He is responsible for bringing the risk of STD's and making his own partner miserable. Marriages fail and people stop loving each other. The STD's a re a big problem, but other than that - frankly, I don't care that my husbands never cheated on me when they left me. It's the same as if they did. But they hurt me. So what? Am I entitled to their love forever? Should I burn them at a stake for breaking my heart? It's so pathetic to be so emotionally dependent on someone that you can't just say "OK, he is a cheater, F him, and move on."

 

RP I'd love to frame your words!! Thank you for this.

[mopar crazy]

If there was no OW willing to open her legs for a MM he wouldn't be screwing around now would he? The OW helps MM to be unfaithful to his W. She didn't make vows to be faithful to W, no but it's still wrong for her to sleep w/ a MM.

 

I want to honestly know who thinks there is NOTHING WRONG w/ sleeping w/ a MP? Don't give me the BS crap about "But I'm making their M better by sleeping w/ him/her." THAT does not make it right. If anyone seriously thinks there is nothing wrong w/ sleeping w/ a MP I just wonder how they would feel if their spouse did the same to them. If you wouldn't care then I really feel sorry for you.

[luvmy2ns]

In the meanwhile I am trying not to hurt the ones whose lives I CAN affect.

 

Thanks for succinctly summing up the point I was trying to make, RP, but I don't think it's going to get through some folks' heads unless you pound it in with a sledge hammer. They'll use whatever excuse they can to make their wrongs okay. I do believe, though, that f'ing a married person is wrong. You know you are involving yourself where you do NOT belong.

[White Flower]

If there was no OW willing to open her legs for a MM he wouldn't be screwing around now would he? The OW helps MM to be unfaithful to his W. She didn't make vows to be faithful to W, no but it's still wrong for her to sleep w/ a MM.

 

I want to honestly know who thinks there is NOTHING WRONG w/ sleeping w/ a MP? Don't give me the BS crap about "But I'm making their M better by sleeping w/ him/her." THAT does not make it right. If anyone seriously thinks there is nothing wrong w/ sleeping w/ a MP I just wonder how they would feel if their spouse did the same to them. If you wouldn't care then I really feel sorry for you.

Actually, I think he would find a way whether it be an addiction to internet porn, a donkey, or a ham sandwich as I said before. People find something to help them avoid their pain or what is lacking. We can blame the OW all we want, but if there were no such thing, we would be battling something else. That's just the way it is. But I won't say it's not wrong.

 

I found out that it was wrong for me. I love this man and would uproot my entire world for him, but under different circumstances. I would not allow him to leave her for me. He would have to do it after I left and he would have to find me sometime later and prove that he didn't end the marriage for me, but because he should have done it long ago. But that is just my story.

[White Flower]

So it's the old "Madonna/Whore" rearing it's head again?

Except in the male version...?

 

Hmmm.

<scratching head thoughtfully>

 

Thank you for this thought, WhiteFlower.

I'm going to have to ponder this one for awhile.

Seriously.

Hi Mustang Sally,

 

I wasn't sure if you were being sincere or not so I went and read some of your threads and I get the feeling you are not flaming me. It seems you are in a predicament that I was in pre A. I really hope you and your H have been able to work some things out. The whole Madonna/whore thing can take on many versions besides the obvious.

 

I am(was) both Madonna and whore at home. By that I mean I think I am (was) all that my H needed in a wife--"A lady out in public and a whore in the bedroom", yet he didn't really appreciate it.

 

Then I became both things for MM. He is always saying that I am such a lady and he hopes I never feel like he thinks I am anything less. Yet, I've been pretty whorish with him--and he appreciates it. Boy, is he going to miss me.

 

So, yeah, I think he has his W on the angel pedestal and me on the devil pedestal and in a compartmental way respects us both. But he doesn't ever cancel anything on her. And that is another thread...

[Lizzie60]

He could very well be in love with the self-confident woman she is. Why would he continuously have sex with her if there is no chance for him to fall in love with her? Some men like older women, just like some women like older men

 

You're right.. I know he loves older women.. He had an affair a few years ago with a 49 yr old.. he must have been 22. I think he really loves me... but he's not 'in love' with me.. I don't think.

 

I would gladly pay more for my products if that would make those kids eat better, but I know that many people don't care as long as they can save money. Every time I trash food I think about 1/3 of the world who don't eat every day. I've cried about it, but what can I really do?

 

I agree.. it is sad... but there is not much we can do except boycott those stores.. It's not balanced.. we live in abundance while they are dying from hunger.

 

Many marriages do better during an affair, actually!

 

I completely agree with that.

 

Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for a young woman who is not married, has no kids with the guy, knows he is cheating and is staying with him. Why the hell feel sorry for her? Can't she leave him? Is she entitled to him by birth? I know what he is doing with her - loving her insecure dependency, but why is she with him?

 

Exactly... how sad!... really.. I know he won't change and she probably knows it too.

 

Did SHE make vows to the wife or did HE make them? I think Bill Gates is rich enough so he doesn't have to SELL me programs, he can just donate them to me. Is it his responsibility that I am not rich?

 

Well said.

 

It's so pathetic to be so emotionally dependent on someone that you can't just say "OK, he is a cheater, F him, and move on."

 

I agree once more... well said!

[Mustang Sally]

Hi Mustang Sally,

 

I wasn't sure if you were being sincere or not so I went and read some of your threads and I get the feeling you are not flaming me. It seems you are in a predicament that I was in pre A. I really hope you and your H have been able to work some things out. The whole Madonna/whore thing can take on many versions besides the obvious.

 

I am(was) both Madonna and whore at home. By that I mean I think I am (was) all that my H needed in a wife--"A lady out in public and a whore in the bedroom", yet he didn't really appreciate it.

 

Then I became both things for MM. He is always saying that I am such a lady and he hopes I never feel like he thinks I am anything less. Yet, I've been pretty whorish with him--and he appreciates it. Boy, is he going to miss me.

 

So, yeah, I think he has his W on the angel pedestal and me on the devil pedestal and in a compartmental way respects us both. But he doesn't ever cancel anything on her. And that is another thread...

Hi WhiteFlower.

 

No. I wasn't flaming you at all.

I think sometimes, people aren't sure, in this medium, if I am flaming or not, so I can understand your concern, however. And thanks for sharing your story.

 

Actually, though, I was wondering if, in the post of yours I quoted originally, you meant that the GUY was the madonna/whore-thing...Does that make any sense at all? Like his W views him as a guy who doesn't masturbate (Please! ) and he can't talk to her about it. But with the OW he can be "as nasty as he wants to be" in the bedroom.

 

Or maybe it's not that a person, per se, is the "madonna/whore," in that scenario, but that the situation, itself, is either madonna-esque or whore-ish...

 

I don't know.

 

But you gave me a completely new angle to ponder (yeah - it probably seems obvious to most everyone else...sometimes I'm a bit slow...), so, again. Thank you.

[White Flower]

Hi WhiteFlower.

 

No. I wasn't flaming you at all.

I think sometimes, people aren't sure, in this medium, if I am flaming or not, so I can understand your concern, however. And thanks for sharing your story.

 

Actually, though, I was wondering if, in the post of yours I quoted originally, you meant that the GUY was the madonna/whore-thing...Does that make any sense at all? Like his W views him as a guy who doesn't masturbate (Please! ) and he can't talk to her about it. But with the OW he can be "as nasty as he wants to be" in the bedroom.

 

Or maybe it's not that a person, per se, is the "madonna/whore," in that scenario, but that the situation, itself, is either madonna-esque or whore-ish...

 

I don't know.

 

But you gave me a completely new angle to ponder (yeah - it probably seems obvious to most everyone else...sometimes I'm a bit slow...), so, again. Thank you.

Yeah, you got it. He's supposed to be a saint where she is concerned. Anytime he says something she feels overly sexy he is told, "You're sick!" and it really hurts him. He laughs it off, but he is a Don Juan at the very core. It is who he is and she makes him feel ashamed of it.

 

When we first began talking we were really open. And after we felt a connection we began to get open with our sexual talk. I think even though he was embarrassed at first, he could ask me anything and get an honest answer. The masterbation question sort of opened the floodgates and there was no looking back. He began telling me how many times a week, where he did it, how it improved his skill in bed (my speculation), and even the hookers he'd had in the military. His W would die if she knew her hero had done any of this. I think he was crazy happy to finally tell someone without him being judged or thought of as repugnant. And I felt privileged that he shared such intimate details with me.

 

So yes, he would have that stigma attached to him at home. He wouldn't want to lose the clean cut hero status.

 

I think if he could have his way, he would melt us into one woman. Not that I am not perfect alone for him, but he has so many years invested in her.

[Virgo1982]

Yeah, you got it. He's supposed to be a saint where she is concerned. Anytime he says something she feels overly sexy he is told, "You're sick!" and it really hurts him. He laughs it off, but he is a Don Juan at the very core. It is who he is and she makes him feel ashamed of it.

 

When we first began talking we were really open. And after we felt a connection we began to get open with our sexual talk. I think even though he was embarrassed at first, he could ask me anything and get an honest answer. The masterbation question sort of opened the floodgates and there was no looking back. He began telling me how many times a week, where he did it, how it improved his skill in bed (my speculation), and even the hookers he'd had in the military. His W would die if she knew her hero had done any of this. I think he was crazy happy to finally tell someone without him being judged or thought of as repugnant. And I felt privileged that he shared such intimate details with me.

 

So yes, he would have that stigma attached to him at home. He wouldn't want to lose the clean cut hero status.

 

I think if he could have his way, he would melt us into one woman. Not that I am not perfect alone for him, but he has so many years invested in her.

 

That sounds pretty accurate. I think men should be more honest about their sexuality and I think women should try to expand theirs. It must be hell to live with someone all of that time and feel like you can't be yourself without being shamed. Wow, imagine that. Ashamed of your sexuality in a marriage. I pity him. Then again, many of these guys seek women who are sexually inhibited so they feel safe loving them-knowing they're not wh0res who are just as sexual as they are:rolleyes:. As Matt said, some women are screwable and some women are I-doable. Why not be patient and find a woman who can give you the best of both worlds? Never mind, just settle down and find some "wh0res" later...

[luvmy2ns]

Exactly. People need to make certain all their needs will be met by their partner before they jump into a permanent situation with them. I enjoy being "the lady" my man can be proud to have on his arm in situations that call for it, but I also enjoy being his sex goddess in the bedroom.

[Owl]

Something to think about...

 

I'd heard this quote, and it struck me as amazing at how true it is.

 

"Women marry men, hoping they'll change...but they never do. Men marry women hoping that they'll never change...but they always do."

 

A common example of this is sex in a marriage. Most often at the beginning of a marriage or long term relationship, the sex is WONDERFUL. Both partners are very happy with what's going on, they're usually very good at meeting each other's needs, and be everything that the other person wants and desires.

 

Commonly, as the relationship goes on, the quote I stated earlier kicks in. The man wants the sexual portion of the relationship to stay that same way. He wants it to be at that same peak, with the same excitement and variety and willingness, etc... Often, the woman's feelings about that portion of the relationship will change. She'll become less willing to do the same things...develop and show less desire for it (and him), and often stop doing things that she was more than willing to at the beginning of the relationship.

 

Now...this isn't every person everywhere. But it does seem to be the most common theme.

 

I'd say that the odds are high that THIS is exactly what you're seeing when you're hearing him compare between what he has with the OW and what he has with his wife. With the OW, its NEW, and its a NEW relationship. It hasn't (normally) had the length of time to change. One thing to think about...is it possible that if your relationship with him stretched out over years, would that relationship change to become more like his marriage now?

 

My wife and I have discussed this a couple of times. In our marriage, in this regard, she HAS changed, and looking back can see it. But she never would have thought that she would have changed in this fashion. A large part of a long term relationship is learning to manage and cope with the changes it goes through over the years.

 

I'd agree...guys want both...heck...guys always want the best of everything. But at the end of the day, you learn that you don't always get what you want...or that what you want may not always be what's best for you either. A smart guy will learn to want what's best for him.

[Virgo1982]

Exactly. People need to make certain all their needs will be met by their partner before they jump into a permanent situation with them. I enjoy being "the lady" my man can be proud to have on his arm in situations that call for it, but I also enjoy being his sex goddess in the bedroom.

 

There ya go! Be proud and please him. He's lucky to have you. There are some MM on this site that wish they had a W like you.

[White Flower]

Originally posted by Luvmy2ns>

Exactly. People need to make certain all their needs will be met by their partner before they jump into a permanent situation with them. I enjoy being "the lady" my man can be proud to have on his arm in situations that call for it, but I also enjoy being his sex goddess in the bedroom.

 

This is so important. Funny, though, that even though I was this for my H we still never discussed the masterbation thing. It took MM to get me to open up and he with me. Some people just do it for us and make things safe for us. Different strokes for different folks...no pun intended.

[White Flower]

Something to think about...

 

I'd heard this quote, and it struck me as amazing at how true it is.

 

"Women marry men, hoping they'll change...but they never do. Men marry women hoping that they'll never change...but they always do."

 

 

My wife and I have discussed this a couple of times. In our marriage, in this regard, she HAS changed, and looking back can see it. But she never would have thought that she would have changed in this fashion. A large part of a long term relationship is learning to manage and cope with the changes it goes through over the years.

 

I'd agree...guys want both...heck...guys always want the best of everything. But at the end of the day, you learn that you don't always get what you want...or that what you want may not always be what's best for you either. A smart guy will learn to want what's best for him.

Love the quote; it is so true. You sound like a smart man and your wife is a lucky woman indeed. I also like your closing statement and wish I could have forced it down my H's throat, lol.

[Virgo1982]

Something to think about...

 

I'd heard this quote, and it struck me as amazing at how true it is.

 

"Women marry men, hoping they'll change...but they never do. Men marry women hoping that they'll never change...but they always do."

 

A common example of this is sex in a marriage. Most often at the beginning of a marriage or long term relationship, the sex is WONDERFUL. Both partners are very happy with what's going on, they're usually very good at meeting each other's needs, and be everything that the other person wants and desires.

 

Commonly, as the relationship goes on, the quote I stated earlier kicks in. The man wants the sexual portion of the relationship to stay that same way. He wants it to be at that same peak, with the same excitement and variety and willingness, etc... Often, the woman's feelings about that portion of the relationship will change. She'll become less willing to do the same things...develop and show less desire for it (and him), and often stop doing things that she was more than willing to at the beginning of the relationship.

 

Now...this isn't every person everywhere. But it does seem to be the most common theme.

 

I'd say that the odds are high that THIS is exactly what you're seeing when you're hearing him compare between what he has with the OW and what he has with his wife. With the OW, its NEW, and its a NEW relationship. It hasn't (normally) had the length of time to change. One thing to think about...is it possible that if your relationship with him stretched out over years, would that relationship change to become more like his marriage now?

 

My wife and I have discussed this a couple of times. In our marriage, in this regard, she HAS changed, and looking back can see it. But she never would have thought that she would have changed in this fashion. A large part of a long term relationship is learning to manage and cope with the changes it goes through over the years.

 

I'd agree...guys want both...heck...guys always want the best of everything. But at the end of the day, you learn that you don't always get what you want...or that what you want may not always be what's best for you either. A smart guy will learn to want what's best for him.

 

That's a good way to look at it, Owl. So, do you think the problem is patience and ability to get a handle on the libido?

[Owl]

Virgo-

 

I'd say patience and getting a hand on the libido is definitely part of dealing with the sexual issues that come up in marriage sometimes. Another part is clearly communicating to each other what you want/need, what you enjoy...what makes you uncomfortable and why. Communication and compromise is 90% of relationships. (don't ask me where I got the statistic...I made it up)

 

This isn't the only reason that WS's cheat...but its one of them, and probably one of the main reasons that MM cheat.

 

Sex, especially for men, is an emotional NEED. Its part of what tells them that their spouse loves them and desires them. And when they're not getting that need filled at home...they MIGHT go looking elsewhere. Or they'll try to find ways to be fulfilled with OTHER emotional needs. Or, if things are bad enough, it can lead to divorce. Women often feel the same way, but again, its something I KNOW is common for men.

 

The other thing is, its very hard for most people (men included) to seperate sex and emotion. Being physically intimate with someone makes it difficult to keep from being emotionally intimate with them as well. That's why so many "physical only" relationships lead into emotional ones as well.

 

Its also why even a "physical only" relationship outside of the marriage is devestating to the marriage. Because that emotional intimacy is now ALSO being shared with the OP...and that sharing reduces what's currently being shared with the BS. What intimacy the BS and WS did have is now diminished. And normally will continue to worsen until the affair or the marriage ends.

[Virgo1982]

Virgo-

 

I'd say patience and getting a hand on the libido is definitely part of dealing with the sexual issues that come up in marriage sometimes. Another part is clearly communicating to each other what you want/need, what you enjoy...what makes you uncomfortable and why. Communication and compromise is 90% of relationships. (don't ask me where I got the statistic...I made it up)

 

This isn't the only reason that WS's cheat...but its one of them, and probably one of the main reasons that MM cheat.

 

Sex, especially for men, is an emotional NEED. Its part of what tells them that their spouse loves them and desires them. And when they're not getting that need filled at home...they MIGHT go looking elsewhere. Or they'll try to find ways to be fulfilled with OTHER emotional needs. Or, if things are bad enough, it can lead to divorce. Women often feel the same way, but again, its something I KNOW is common for men.

 

The other thing is, its very hard for most people (men included) to seperate sex and emotion. Being physically intimate with someone makes it difficult to keep from being emotionally intimate with them as well. That's why so many "physical only" relationships lead into emotional ones as well.

 

Its also why even a "physical only" relationship outside of the marriage is devestating to the marriage. Because that emotional intimacy is now ALSO being shared with the OP...and that sharing reduces what's currently being shared with the BS. What intimacy the BS and WS did have is now diminished. And normally will continue to worsen until the affair or the marriage ends.

 

I wouldn't do that to you Owl. Then again...I don't think you should quote percentages unless you've conducted a global survey! C'mon now, chop chop.

 

Anyway, that sounds about right-Another reason I ended my affair. I used to lie to myself and say that I had no responsibility to their M. While I do believe they had much more responsibility than me, I did believe that my participation was preventing them from fixing the problem. If I was meeting his needs, there was no need for them to work on things at home. They were both seeing people outside of the M. But that's why infidelity is so damaging. Both of them were distracted by others and living day to day without a care for tomorrow.