Communicating to a culture.

[Lights]

Is there a way of communicating "Get real. You'll need to seriously step it up to have a chance with me. If you can't handle that, then get lost." to an entire social culture?

 

So far the only action I know when faced with the disgusting joke I seem to be up against is to boycott the social life here, and simply cut off existing acquaintances. That tactic has proven effective for what it is, but it does not yield the overall improvement desired (having the entire culture step it up).

 

There exist urban legends that allege that people teach others how they are to be treated, whether through self-fulfilling prophecies or unconscious actions or other preferred psychobabble di giorno.

 

Does anyone know of how true they are, and if they are, how applicable they are?

[birdie]

I am not one hundred percent sure exactly what you are trying to say. You can communicate what you want to some but not to an entire culture, no. People are individuals and while it is true that their culture and background will bear heavily on how they behave, they won't behave like sheep and do exactly the same things.

 

If you have a problem with every single person then it is probably you, not them. An individual close to you possibly owes you something and should 'step things up'. Acquaintances do not. Maybe you should get off that pedestal you put yourself on.

[Lights]

I am not one hundred percent sure exactly what you are trying to say. You can communicate what you want to some but not to an entire culture, no. People are individuals and while it is true that their culture and background will bear heavily on how they behave, they won't behave like sheep and do exactly the same things.

 

If you have a problem with every single person then it is probably you, not them. An individual close to you possibly owes you something and should 'step things up'. Acquaintances do not. Maybe you should get off that pedestal you put yourself on.

 

This isn't about owing anyone anything. We are, of course, all free individuals.

 

Basically I'm sick of being lowballed socially, and I'd like to communicate that that's not cool. I've been chronically struck with an epidemic of disgusting tribalistic jokes masquerading as friend-making rituals, sickening and antiquated one-way dating attempts, and the like even when I perform all the necessary rituals, and I'd like people to know that I won't take it anymore.

 

Currently my only method of dealing with this is to boycott all socializing in this culture. It's certainly effective in getting rid of people who choose to seek bad terms on which to deal with me. But I'd like to learn something more enlightened, perhaps a body language technique that communicates "It'll take much more work to get a chance with this individual; feel free, but make sure to step up and polish your socializing skills first", or the like. Basically how to be perceived, preferably on sight, as the kind of person who is identifiable as someone who does his part in socializing and doesn't accept what I'm currently running into, and is casually used to far better interactions from people from all cultures.

 

I've done everything I know; as I've run out of ideas, I've come to ask advice on the matter.

[katiebour]

I guess I have a few questions for you. First of all- where are you? Second of all, in what situations/locales/businesses do you find yourself having this unwanted social byplay? And thirdly, how are you dressing?

 

If you're hanging out in places where people are making lowbrow, disgusting comments, then maybe it's time to try hanging out somewhere else.

 

If you dress more formally and expensively, it will give you an appearance of higher social status. If you combine that with a "don't approach me" social demeanor I don't see that it would continue to be a problem.

 

But of course there are some situations and cultures where you can't do much. When I lived in Japan people ALWAYS noticed me- I'm not Asian and I stuck out like a sore thumb being taller and whiter than most of the women. I had some people become extremely friendly and try to speak English with me- I think they wanted to practice.

 

I mostly stayed away from bars; if I went out it was with fellow foreign coworkers (which tends to discourage the locals... foreigners in large numbers are intimidating.)

 

My roommate had incredible problems with being approached by men. Of course she was also blond and curly-haired with green eyes- even more of a curiosity and turn-on for the locals. She also had the disturbing tendency of going out and getting drunk on a regular basis... she often gave out her cell number while drunk and had unwanted callers all the time. One guy in particular called and called, at all hours of the night, usually drunk-dialing her. She told him in her very Kiwi manner to "f*** off" and he called even more.

 

My roommate could do nothing about her physical appeal. However, her decision to go out and party, to get drunk, to give out her phone number and to wear tight and revealing clothing all contributed to her situation.

 

When I rode the train I listened to my CD player (this was back in the Stone Age before MP3 players came out...lol) and I carried at least one book everywhere with me. People are less likely to disturb someone who is listening to music or reading.

[Lights]

I guess I have a few questions for you. First of all- where are you? Second of all, in what situations/locales/businesses do you find yourself having this unwanted social byplay? And thirdly, how are you dressing?

Hi Katiebour,

 

It's not about unwanted social byplay, but rather about the level of what's offered to me as far as socializing goes. Been tired of trying to find new friends outside my work area and finding that people most anywhere I seem to be are tribalistic jokes and that most all interaction goes only one way. (Maybe it's just me, but it's been too often that I've found that many cases of finding "friends" really are cases of finding incidental human shapes in the background among whom one spends time as long as one of the shepherds says one is to be treated as in-crowd.) Been tired of trying to create an actual dating life and finding that it's a sickening waste of my time and it too only goes one way.

 

I'd like to come across as someone who's not used to one-way dealings, and who most likely routinely comes across people who offer more and are far more advanced.

 

I'm in the USA, and in these situations I'm wearing a t-shirt-and-jeans or the equivalent for the weather type.

 

If you dress more formally and expensively, it will give you an appearance of higher social status. If you combine that with a "don't approach me" social demeanor I don't see that it would continue to be a problem.

 

Well, I've found that save for a few exceptions that can be counted on one hand, people don't approach me at all unless they're ordered to by a superior in their clique. However, I can't count how many times I've reached out myself. I'd like to communicate to the culture somehow that that sort of asymmetry isn't something I'll tolerate long.

[Lights]

If anyone could help, it'd be very much appreciated.

[katiebour]

Hi Katiebour,

 

It's not about unwanted social byplay, but rather about the level of what's offered to me as far as socializing goes. Been tired of trying to find new friends outside my work area and finding that people most anywhere I seem to be are tribalistic jokes and that most all interaction goes only one way.

 

I'm a bit unclear as to what you mean by "tribalistic jokes" or that all of your interaction goes one way- do you talk to people and they just stare back at you? Are you saying that you, basically are carrying the conversation? If that's the case then either you are intimidating the people that you are trying to converse with or you simply have nothing in common.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it's been too often that I've found that many cases of finding "friends" really are cases of finding incidental human shapes in the background among whom one spends time as long as one of the shepherds says one is to be treated as in-crowd.

 

Welcome to my entire high-school existence...hehehe. I guess the one gem I took away from that was that being part of the "in-crowd" wasn't all that desirable and that the best sort of folks were my fellow oddballs and outcasts. I have a lot of problem making friends out of strangers myself- most of my close friends I met while living in the dorms in college.

 

Been tired of trying to create an actual dating life and finding that it's a sickening waste of my time and it too only goes one way.

 

You know, the last time I was single I couldn't even imagine just going out and trying to randomly meet someone. I've never done that and I can't imagine how meeting someone in a bar could lead to a meaningful connection. I actually met my first b/f through a friend; the second and third I met over the internet.

 

I'd like to come across as someone who's not used to one-way dealings, and who most likely routinely comes across people who offer more and are far more advanced.

 

Depending on where you are, that can be a really difficult thing. I had an almost impossible time trying to make friends in the Midwest when I was younger, and even though I live there now most of my socializing is done with friends of my boyfriend. Unfortunately most of the people who choose to remain in this part of the country are of a certain theological and political viewpoint, and even I dare say of a certain temperament that is incompatible and boring to me. I've met a few friends at work, and the kids are full of zest and excitement (I work in the cafeteria at a university here) but by and large most here are politically conservative, religiously zealous, and their most common topics of conversation are weather, sports, and tv shows. The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people.

 

I'm in the USA, and in these situations I'm wearing a t-shirt-and-jeans or the equivalent for the weather type.

 

Well I'm in the USA too, so I can vouch for the fact that we're not all mindless and boring Seriously though, many/most of my adult social contacts were made through:

 

http://www.myspace.com

http://www.craigslist.org

http://www.meetin.org

 

craiglist is good for free dating and booty calls I went on several dates through craigslist and it was a lot of fun, although none led to a permanent connection. I joined Meet-in when I lived in Portland, OR, and went on several really fun trips. We went and cleaned up garbage on the coast, ate at a seaside restaurant and then some of the folks rented a hotel room and we sat around playing cards/chatting/imbibing. It was fun. They have all sorts of events. I also went on a tour of the Shanghai Tunnels under Portland through Meet-in. I think the best thing about Meet-in is that meeting people revolves around the events that people set up- it's not just getting together and standing around awkwardly, you know?

 

Well, I've found that save for a few exceptions that can be counted on one hand, people don't approach me at all unless they're ordered to by a superior in their clique. However, I can't count how many times I've reached out myself.

 

It really sounds to me like the locals are intimidated by you. If you're from another country, and in a small-town part of the US, then that kind of reaction is par for the course. Again I would suggest either some networking sites on the web, or joining some college classes if they are available.

 

I'd like to communicate to the culture somehow that that sort of asymmetry isn't something I'll tolerate long.

 

You do realize that this sounds like a very demanding statement? You can't make people like you, anywhere. The people aren't going to change for you- either you change or you move. The people who live in your locale have likely been there for years before you came, and will be there for years after you leave. They're not going to change their behavior, beliefs, or habits to suit you.

 

In any case, I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble finding friends. It's difficult for me, too, and I'm from here! Best of luck to you.

[Trialbyfire]

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

[Lights]

I'm a bit unclear as to what you mean by "tribalistic jokes" or that all of your interaction goes one way- do you talk to people and they just stare back at you? Are you saying that you, basically are carrying the conversation? If that's the case then either you are intimidating the people that you are trying to converse with or you simply have nothing in common.

It goes one way, save for in specialized cases, from start to end.

I've attempted to meet countless people; I can count on one hand the number of men who've even walked up and said hi in my direction of their own accord with the intention of meeting a new person (me), and the number of such women who have attempted the same does not even require any active attempt at counting.

I'm finding it's me who's making any attempt at distant media contact; it's been some years since I've last found someone actually send me an email instead of it always starting from me. Even among established (now former) friends I find the same thing even on mundane stuff like phone calls or IMs. Very rarely is it ever so much as a "Yo, it's Frank. We're setting up a [activity] on [future day]. Hit me up if you want in."

 

Of course, one shouldn't dwell on such matters, but seeing this chronically happen certainly hasn't exactly led to good faith between me and the people. I'm not anyone's tag-along, and my patience in the process of meeting people is quite finite.

 

To answer your question regarding what I mean by tribalistic, it's that few dare deal with anyone outside their little cliques unless ordered to by one of their bellwethers. I'd consider this suitable were I a 9-year old, but I'm in the dark side of my 20s...

 

Depending on where you are, that can be a really difficult thing...The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people...Seriously though, many/most of my adult social contacts were made through:

 

http://www.myspace.com

http://www.craigslist.org

http://www.meetin.org

 

craiglist is good for free dating and booty calls I went on several dates through craigslist and it was a lot of fun, although none led to a permanent connection. I joined Meet-in when I lived in Portland, OR, and went on several really fun trips. We went and cleaned up garbage on the coast, ate at a seaside restaurant and then some of the folks rented a hotel room and we sat around playing cards/chatting/imbibing. It was fun. They have all sorts of events. I also went on a tour of the Shanghai Tunnels under Portland through Meet-in. I think the best thing about Meet-in is that meeting people revolves around the events that people set up- it's not just getting together and standing around awkwardly, you know?

Thank you for the information, Katiebour. I'll definitely look into these.

 

If you're from another country, and in a small-town part of the US, then that kind of reaction is par for the course.

I am from this country, and this goes on in all population density zones I've encountered (small-town, suburb, city).

 

...either you change or you move.

Amen. Once I find some good visa-sponsoring jobs in my field, I am out of here.

 

In any case, I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble finding friends. It's difficult for me, too, and I'm from here! Best of luck to you.

Thanks, and best of luck to you too.

 

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

 

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

 

True, members here have tried to help me. Are you asking me why I keep returning to online forums looking for advice? I think it may be more a matter of the degree of resistance I'm facing from the people I encounter rather than anything about the forum here or the advice itself--this isn't anything personal nor a denial or insult to the advice itself either. If it's coming across as the latter, I can only say I'm sorry.

 

As far as any possible matter of superiority goes, well, that's the issue itself. I've been feeling that what I've been getting for my efforts has rarely ever been up to the proverbial snuff (i.e. my efforts were very much superior to those that were proffered directly to me without intervention), and I'd like that to change to something more equitable. I can solve the problem by cutting off all social dealings (one way to render the situation more equitable), but I'd rather not have it be that way.

 

What difference are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

I don't know how I come across as on this board, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's frustrated and angry. (That is the actual situation.)

 

No one owes me acceptance, but nor do I owe anyone else that. All I can say on that is that it has to go both ways if acceptance is appropriate, and I haven't been seeing that happening.

 

I better stop. I'm not sure how much longer I can even think about this.

[Trimmer]

Unfortunately most of the people who choose to remain in this part of the country are of a certain theological and political viewpoint, and even I dare say of a certain temperament that is incompatible and boring to me. I've met a few friends at work, and the kids are full of zest and excitement (I work in the cafeteria at a university here) but by and large most here are politically conservative, religiously zealous, and their most common topics of conversation are weather, sports, and tv shows. The culture on the West Coast seems to be a bit more open minded and I had far less difficulty meeting people of a similar mindset. Of course there's also a larger variety of activities (volunteer work, dance classes, art/pottery/cooking classes, etc) which tend to attract the more interesting people.

I think this is an excellent point. Lights has said in the past:

 

The thing is, situations wherein people specifically want to meet anyone with purely social intentions really don't exist where I come from.

So there may be a regional element here, but I wonder if Lights' primary issue is more based in attitude than region.

 

To answer your question regarding what I mean by tribalistic, it's that few dare deal with anyone outside their little cliques unless ordered to by one of their bellwethers. I'd consider this suitable were I a 9-year old, but I'm in the dark side of my 20s...

I'm trying to understand the literal point obscured behind your metaphors and abstract use of language... You are saying that your lack of social success is because people in their late 20's will not approach you unless they are ordered to by leaders of their cliques? Do you seriously believe this?

 

I don't know how I come across as on this board, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's frustrated and angry. (That is the actual situation.)

I'm not doing this to beat on you, but to give you an outside viewpoint, limited indeed by my own perspectives and my narrow view of you only through what I see in your postings... You come across as someone who believes yourself to meet a high standard, and is mystified and frustrated that many in the world don't meet that standard, or that those who might be able to meet that standard will not "do their part" to approach you. You may object to this characterization, but I get the sense that you feel entitled to some things that you are not getting from the world.

 

No one owes me acceptance, but nor do I owe anyone else that. All I can say on that is that it has to go both ways if acceptance is appropriate, and I haven't been seeing that happening.

I think my fundamental point here is that no one owes you anything. You are given (by others) what you attract. Whether that is respect (as we discussed at length in your "how to eradicate rude rejections" thread), friendship, romance, or whatever, if you aren't being "given" it, then for whatever reason, you aren't attracting it.

 

And this brings me at last to the original question in your post. If you find that you are not getting what you want from your social interactions, if your field of opportunities is too narrow, if you are not being "given" the chances at interaction that you think you should have, then I think that communicating to the world "you'll have to step it up if you want a chance with me" can only have the effect of further narrowing your field of opportunities. How can it be anything otherwise?

 

I think this flows from this entitlement attitude that you feel you deserve something that the world is not delivering. You seem to think that if you just figure out a way to successfully communicate your expectations "to a culture," that people will change and will start presenting you with social opportunites more suitable to your preferences. As I said before, you are given what you attract, so I concede that changing how you present yourself can well change the opportunities you encounter. I just think that putting off a vibe of "hey, you'd better step it up because here's what I expect/demand" and "I won't take it anymore" is (a) not likely to change anyone else's approach to life, (b) is more likely to generally narrow your opportunities, and © is not really that likely to add any more suitable opportunities of the types you crave, if they aren't already there.

[Trialbyfire]

Lights, I'm not going to get into the complexity of social interaction and the impact of current culture v. Lights.

 

I'm just going to give one example, in a person to person fashion.

 

Lights is on LS seeking help. Does Lights help anyone else on LS?

[Lights]

Lights, I'm not going to get into the complexity of social interaction and the impact of current culture v. Lights.

 

I'm just going to give one example, in a person to person fashion.

 

Lights is on LS seeking help. Does Lights help anyone else on LS?

 

Regrettably, I haven't the qualifications to offer much help on that much of anything here. Not exactly a surprise, I wouldn't think.

 

I'm trying to understand the literal point obscured behind your metaphors and abstract use of language... You are saying that your lack of social success is because people in their late 20's will not approach you unless they are ordered to by leaders of their cliques? Do you seriously believe this?

Nah, I'm saying that it's frustrating (and increasingly feels like a repulsive waste of time) dealing with people who are terrified of dealing with others not defined as in their cliques unless ordered to regardless of who does the approaching. That much I do believe. And I don't feel I worked hard polishing my social skills just so I could battle through the likes of that.

 

I don't know what my personal lack of social successes may be about overall, if you're asking me that.

 

You are given (by others) what you attract. Whether that is respect (as we discussed at length in your "how to eradicate rude rejections" thread), friendship, romance, or whatever, if you aren't being "given" it, then for whatever reason, you aren't attracting it.

Which is why I'm asking advice...

 

And this brings me at last to the original question in your post. If you find that you are not getting what you want from your social interactions, if your field of opportunities is too narrow, if you are not being "given" the chances at interaction that you think you should have, then I think that communicating to the world "you'll have to step it up if you want a chance with me" can only have the effect of further narrowing your field of opportunities. How can it be anything otherwise?

True, but at least that tactic will narrow out mainly those that don't have the capabilities involved in stepping it up (as opposed to the solution I've historically used, which is cut myself off from everyone). I think we can agree that one who is, say, not interested in being a tag-along, might be interested in cutting off those who seek a chump to have as a tag-along (and likewise for any other such dealing that one might consider not worthy of the effort put in).

 

As I said before, you are given what you attract, so I concede that changing how you present yourself can well change the opportunities you encounter. I just think that putting off a vibe of "hey, you'd better step it up because here's what I expect/demand" and "I won't take it anymore" is (a) not likely to change anyone else's approach to life, (b) is more likely to generally narrow your opportunities, and © is not really that likely to add any more suitable opportunities of the types you crave, if they aren't already there.

Where would I learn more about what would set up ©?

[Trialbyfire]

Okay. I'm afraid I don't have a psychology degree, therefore have insufficient qualifications to help you. I'll bow out.

 

Notice the interaction between you and I?

[Lights]

Okay. I'm afraid I don't have a psychology degree, therefore have insufficient qualifications to help you. I'll bow out.

 

Notice the interaction between you and I?

 

I don't know if you are trying to joke with me about the matter, but if you are, it is not welcome. If not, and if that is some sort of serious answer to my earlier response regarding why I do not advise other people much here, then suffice it to say that given my own social history, few people would have use for any advice I could possibly give, and fewer still would be likely to benefit from actually using it.

[sb129]

Lights, members have tried again and again to help you. Instead you prefer to believe in your superiority, hence difference. If you come across to people in real life the same way, it's not surprising you find it difficult to be accepted. Why do people owe you acceptance, when you refuse to accept anyone else?

 

I agree with this. I also think that Katie and Trimmer have given you some excellent and thoughtful advice, which are essentially saying the same thing as Trialbyfire.

I agree with them- does the fact that four out of four people responding to your thread are saying the same thing not give you an indication that perhaps it might be worth listening to them?

 

It seems to me that you either accept what is around you, and make yourself a little more acceptable to that society, be a loner, or move.

 

 

She told him in her very Kiwi manner to "f*** off"

Ahh gotta love those Kiwi girls!

[sb129]

I don't know if you are trying to joke with me about the matter, but if you are, it is not welcome. If not, and if that is some sort of serious answer to my earlier response regarding why I do not advise other people much here, then suffice it to say that given my own social history, few people would have use for any advice I could possibly give, and fewer still would be likely to benefit from actually using it.

 

If you dislike yourself as much as this post would suggest, then perhaps you give off this air to others.

 

People aren't generally attracted to people who don't like themselves.

 

i suspect the air of superiority you portray is a smokescreen for some large insecurities.

[Numerouno]

Reading this thread reminds me of a Henry Rollins song...

 

The self hatred that blinds you, binds you, grinds you, keeps you down

Your world falls down around you

You build up walls around you

You wear disgust like a crown

[lindya]

I've attempted to meet countless people; I can count on one hand the number of men who've even walked up and said hi in my direction of their own accord with the intention of meeting a new person (me), and the number of such women who have attempted the same does not even require any active attempt at counting. I'm finding it's me who's making any attempt at distant media contact; it's been some years since I've last found someone actually send me an email instead of it always starting from me. Even among established (now former) friends I find the same thing even on mundane stuff like phone calls or IMs. Very rarely is it ever so much as a "Yo, it's Frank. We're setting up a [activity] on [future day]. Hit me up if you want in."

 

Good communication involves putting the message across clearly and simply. If you can't do that, people might think you can't make enough sense of your own thoughts to convey them coherently, or you're being pretentious. Either way, it's likely to make them less interested in dealing with you.

 

Write other people's disinterest down to cliquiness if you want. No doubt that's part of it, but poor communication on your part might also play a role. For example:

 

It's not about unwanted social byplay, but rather about the level of what's offered to me as far as socializing goes. Been tired of trying to find new friends outside my work area and finding that people most anywhere I seem to be are tribalistic jokes and that most all interaction goes only one way. (Maybe it's just me, but it's been too often that I've found that many cases of finding "friends" really are cases of finding incidental human shapes in the background among whom one spends time as long as one of the shepherds says one is to be treated as in-crowd.) Been tired of trying to create an actual dating life and finding that it's a sickening waste of my time and it too only goes one way.

 

Wordy gabble. "Incidental human shapes"? Phrases like that turn people off. They make you sound more concerned with appearing interesting/intellectual, less concerned with helping others to understand and connect with you.

 

What you're saying could be boiled down to this:

 

"So far my attempts to increase my social circle beyond my workplace have failed. I find other people cliquey. When dominant members of particular cliques I've encountered accept me, I make friends of sorts. The friendships only seem to last for as long as the dominant clique members' acceptance of me does. I feel that I make efforts with others, but I don't get the response from them that I would hope for."

 

People are cliquey by nature. Some people need the sense of being part of a group more than others. Presumably, you're looking for the kind of friends who aren't overly dependent on group acceptance. The trouble is that the people who protest most loudly about tribalism and cliques (or even appear to deliberately court rejection) are very often the very people who are secretly desperate for acceptance...but don't really believe they're acceptable. People who are less dependent on cliques (or on other people in general) may well view you as a lame duck disguising himself as a subversive who's "above" the needs and behaviour of the herd. You'll just end up alienating everyone with that attitude. Cliques and more individualistic people alike.

 

Perhaps you should work on a) your communication style, and b) managing your feelings about/responses to group politics. Ideally with the assistance of a skilled counsellor. It might also be helpful if you read over your posts in this thread then comment on the things youthink they convey about you. If your self image is totally at odds with the image others have formed of you, it's bound to lead to problems in getting on with people.

[Lights]

It seems to me that you either accept what is around you, and make yourself a little more acceptable to that society, be a loner, or move.

As I mentioned to Katie, I am doing my best on these matters. I'm out of here for good once the rest of the stuff is set up.

 

If you dislike yourself as much as this post would suggest, then perhaps you give off this air to others.

 

People aren't generally attracted to people who don't like themselves.

 

i suspect the air of superiority you portray is a smokescreen for some large insecurities.

 

There's no air of superiority here nor any self-dislike. Just stating the truth. I don't advise people on their problems here because in the vast majority of cases I don't have any knowledge about dealing with them positively.

 

Put more crudely, virgins can't teach you how to ****.

 

Therefore, I rarely ever dispense advice here. That's the answer to Trialbyfire's question.

 

Good communication involves putting the message across clearly and simply.

That's all well and good as long as the chance to communicate is there in the first place, and it is available on terms one would consider appropriate.

 

Wordy gabble. "Incidental human shapes"? Phrases like that turn people off. They make you sound more concerned with appearing interesting/intellectual, less concerned with helping others to understand and connect with you.

That's as it may be, but I don't really discuss this sort of thing or talk in these manners in person.

 

What you're saying could be boiled down to this:

"So far my attempts to increase my social circle beyond my workplace have failed. I find other people cliquey. When dominant members of particular cliques I've encountered accept me, I make friends of sorts. The friendships only seem to last for as long as the dominant clique members' acceptance of me does. I feel that I make efforts with others, but I don't get the response from them that I would hope for."

And also the following:

- Not only am I not getting the responses I would hope for, but I'm also not getting the proactivity I would hope for either given my efforts. Never a first email or IM among the former "friends", and virtually never a first direct approach by new people. I want to see that happen much more routinely, provided that I do my part in being socially active.

 

- I'm also seeking dealings with people even in situations where any matters of bellwethers (or dominant clique members, to use your phrase) aren't relevant. That's also not been happening, regardless of my efforts, and nor are people stepping it up to reach me proactively in the same situations. (For an example, I don't think it should should require a memo to the central committee for someone to dare to send an email, assuming group politics is what's holding them back.)

 

Basically I was hoping to learn here how to convey an appearance of someone who's used to directly dealing with advanced people, and having dealings that go both ways rather than me always being the only one reaching out like some sort of tag-along. Through that appearance, I had hoped that simply letting all those who don't have the necessary capabilities to simply fade out into the background.

 

People are cliquey by nature. Some people need the sense of being part of a group more than others. Presumably...

...You'll just end up alienating everyone with that attitude. Cliques and more individualistic people alike.

 

And that's okay. I'm just looking to casually surround myself with highly socially skilled people and create a social life wherein social proactivity goes both ways, and if one person is mired by their personal set of group political beliefs or is awaiting orders from their bellwether or doesn't have the ability to deal directly with me, they're quickly and easily replaced by a more advanced person who isn't.

 

Perhaps you should work on a) your communication style, and b) managing your feelings about/responses to group politics. Ideally with the assistance of a skilled counsellor. It might also be helpful if you read over your posts in this thread then comment on the things youthink they convey about you. If your self image is totally at odds with the image others have formed of you, it's bound to lead to problems in getting on with people.

 

What would I do to work on the communication style? And what about situations where communications haven't happened yet (such as initial approaches, or [what I expect to see much more often] being initially approached)?

 

Well, I doubt very much that people in ordinary life view me as what they see here; my posts here are all things I nearly never dare to speak of in daily life.

[sb129]

Basically I was hoping to learn here how to convey an appearance of someone who's used to directly dealing with advanced people, and having dealings that go both ways rather than me always being the only one reaching out like some sort of tag-along. Through that appearance, I had hoped that simply letting all those who don't have the necessary capabilities to simply fade out into the background.

 

As someone who is used to dealing with a very wide spectrum of people, I think that the best thing to do it NOT allow those who don't have the "necessary capabilities" fade into the background.

What are the "necessary capabilities" exactly?

 

I consider myself to have excellent social skills, and I have a good close knit group of friends who are "advanced people" (by that I am assuming you mean people with higher education and professional jobs), but I also have some very good friends who aren't necessarily "advanced" by your standards, but they are great people and great fun.

 

I am not religious, but this passage "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" really holds some weight here.

 

I don't know why you think you can't give advice. I am not married, yet I give advice to married people on here, and its usually accepted, as its a sign of showing support.

Its also good to learn things about other people, and generally interact, as an internet forum is still a form of socialising, and there are many interesting, intelligent and funny people on this forum.

 

If all you do is talk about yourself all the time, people will get pretty sick of that. Taking an interest in others is KEY to having good social skills.

 

 

 

 

And that's okay. I'm just looking to casually surround myself with highly socially skilled people and create a social life wherein social proactivity goes both ways, and if one person is mired by their personal set of group political beliefs or is awaiting orders from their bellwether or doesn't have the ability to deal directly with me, they're quickly and easily replaced by a more advanced person who isn't.

 

No offense, but to be surrounded by highly socially skilled people, you require decent social skills yourself, and I am wondering whether yours might be lacking a bit.

 

Having good social skills doesn't mean you ignore people you think to be beneath you. It means you engage with all sorts of people on many different levels. Mixing with just one kind of person is boring.

 

If you want people to be proactive, you have to be proactive yourself.

 

If you had neither an air of superiority NOR self dislike, you wouldn't be here asking for help.

 

I feel sorry for you actually. I hope you find what you are looking for, but I don't think its going to be an easy journey for you.

[serial muse]

Perhaps you should consider just how judgmental you sound to the people with whom you're trying to establish friendships. Perhaps you do make the first approach, call, email - but that isn't all there is to being friendly. Are you a welcoming, open-minded sort of person? In LS, at least, you are not. I can't imagine that you do a 180 in real life; some of that, no matter how submerged you think it is, is sure to bleed out.

 

If, even when reaching out to people, you also display signs of being disparaging of others, or judgmental, or another such off-putting characteristic, they probably aren't going to respond. If I met you somewhere and you complimented me by calling me an "advanced person," my first reaction would be to be wary of you, and wonder when you might turn on me. Someone so judgmental is not someone I'd want to trust with my weaknesses or vulnerabilities = i.e. not someone I'd want to be any kind of genuine friends with.

[Lights]

I consider myself to have excellent social skills, and I have a good close knit group of friends who are "advanced people" (by that I am assuming you mean people with higher education and professional jobs), but I also have some very good friends who aren't necessarily "advanced" by your standards, but they are great people and great fun.

 

By "advanced", I meant people who had the abilities to deal with other people, from zero/strangerness to whatever may or may not happen, on their own or otherwise, and without resorting to matters more suited to schoolchildren (the highschooler's cliquishness, the kindergartener's "stranger danger", or what-have-you) than modern adults. I didn't mean anything about education or jobs.

 

As someone who is used to dealing with a very wide spectrum of people, I think that the best thing to do it NOT allow those who don't have the "necessary capabilities" fade into the background.

What are the "necessary capabilities" exactly?

The capabilities in question can vary. People, situations, etc. all vary. It could be the ability to get over "stranger danger", or it could be the ability to realize that not everyone's going to just be another tag-along ("You hear from Tyrone recently?"), or it could be some courage and physical motor skills ([walks up] "Excuse me a minute. My name's Rosella. I noticed you there and was wondering if you'd like to get to know each other over some coffee?"), or who knows what.

 

 

I am not religious, but this passage "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" really holds some weight here.

 

I don't know why you think you can't give advice. I am not married, yet I give advice to married people on here, and its usually accepted, as its a sign of showing support.

Its also good to learn things about other people, and generally interact, as an internet forum is still a form of socialising, and there are many interesting, intelligent and funny people on this forum.

Ok. I guess I'll do what I can then.

 

If all you do is talk about yourself all the time, people will get pretty sick of that. Taking an interest in others is KEY to having good social skills.

Oh, there's no problem about that, save for on this forum. I do not dare to talk about myself in remotely as much detail in real life.

 

No offense, but to be surrounded by highly socially skilled people, you require decent social skills yourself, and I am wondering whether yours might be lacking a bit.

None taken. I do, and have done, what I can to improve myself.

 

Having good social skills doesn't mean you ignore people you think to be beneath you. It means you engage with all sorts of people on many different levels.

Even if engaging with many of them is offered solely on terms that you do not consider acceptable or to be of any interest? (Such as being some sort of tag-along?)

 

If you want people to be proactive, you have to be proactive yourself.

I once assumed this, but the disparity in proactivity remains nevertheless.

Innumerable attempts on my end...but as I mentioned before, I can count on one hand the number of men who've come by and directly introduced themselves for purely social purposes without having been ordered to; when counting similar women in a similar fashion, that one hand remains a closed fist as no fingers need be extended.

 

Perhaps you should consider just how judgmental you sound to the people with whom you're trying to establish friendships. Perhaps you do make the first approach, call, email - but that isn't all there is to being friendly. Are you a welcoming, open-minded sort of person? In LS, at least, you are not. I can't imagine that you do a 180 in real life; some of that, no matter how submerged you think it is, is sure to bleed out.

I suppose.

 

If, even when reaching out to people, you also display signs of being disparaging of others, or judgmental, or another such off-putting characteristic, they probably aren't going to respond. If I met you somewhere and you complimented me by calling me an "advanced person," my first reaction would be to be wary of you, and wonder when you might turn on me. Someone so judgmental is not someone I'd want to trust with my weaknesses or vulnerabilities = i.e. not someone I'd want to be any kind of genuine friends with.

True. I don't ever talk like this in public or in daily life, but I'll do my best to observe if such signs are there.

[sb129]

By "advanced", I meant people who had the abilities to deal with other people, from zero/strangerness to whatever may or may not happen, on their own or otherwise, and without resorting to matters more suited to schoolchildren (the highschooler's cliquishness, the kindergartener's "stranger danger", or what-have-you) than modern adults. I didn't mean anything about education or jobs.

 

Most people I associate with (on all levels, both work and play) are like this.

 

Where the hell do you live?

 

Small towns can be worse for the kind of behaviour you have described above, but people are generally friendlier on a day to day basis, and even small towns aren't populated with clones- there are usually a few "different" people in them!

 

Bigger cities are more diverse and as a result people are generally more tolerant and more interested in people that aren't exactly like them, BUT it can be lonely and harder to meet people.

 

I know what you mean re: tag- along, and it must be frustrating. What avenues are you exploring though? Have you joined any groups that share common interests with you? Done any volunteer work?

These kind of things can help you meet like- minded people.

 

And there are always the internet sites katie mentioned. I met my fiance online, he is awesome. and turns out he is from a town not far from wher i am from, even though we both live thousands of miles from that country at the moment.

[Lights]

Most people I associate with (on all levels, both work and play) are like this.

 

Where the hell do you live?

These days in a small-town suburb of a major city in the USA. In the past, I've been in suburbs and in cities. I'm hoping to move, still working on the future job situation and the where and how.

 

I know what you mean re: tag- along, and it must be frustrating. What avenues are you exploring though? Have you joined any groups that share common interests with you? Done any volunteer work?

These kind of things can help you meet like- minded people.

So far groups yes, volunteer work no, although recently my interests have shifted again and once the dust settles I'll have to start over again. I'll have to see how it works, and whether the messages I was looking to send get across...

 

And there are always the internet sites katie mentioned. I met my fiance online, he is awesome. and turns out he is from a town not far from wher i am from, even though we both live thousands of miles from that country at the moment.

 

Congratulations sb129!!

[Storyrider]

You mentioned earlier you don't know how you come across to people reading your posts. I'll be honest. You come across as robotic, as if you're Mr Data from Star Trek trying to learn about the human race from the outside. I'm not saying this to be critical, but is it possible that you are this stiff and cold in real life?

 

This is a spoof to make a point, but your questions are kind of like this:

 

So, in wrapping one's arms around another individual as a display of affection, how many feet should I be standing away from the person to conduct the maneuver. For how many seconds is it appropriate to continue in the position of touching the individual without the duration extending beyond what is typical or comfortable? How can I read the body language and facial features of the other person to know when it is expected and appropriate for me to attempt such a gesture? Why is it that when I approach and attempt to engage someone else in a mutual action such as the one described above, I am often met with scorn and rejection?

Have you ever considered you might have Asperger's syndrome?