Keeping a man = becoming heartless and manilpulative?

[RecordProducer]

You and I have a completely different outlook on this. Of what I've noticed, it's been completely the other way around. I'm thinking that neither one of us should be generalizing in this aspect.

I think you and I should both agree that I am right.

 

Regarding givers and takers: yes, men give us their dix and we take them. I think there are marriages out there (like my two) where giving vs. taking has never been an issue; we both gave and took (love and sh*t).

 

 

i just finished reading 'why men love bitches' and turned my other girls onto reading it. totally recommend it to the ladies. now before the men start backlashing, its not so much about being an abrasive bitch, but rather how much you let the guy know you respect yourself and how you want to be treated. doesnt say anything about not being a nice person, just not putting up with mistreatment and then making excuses for the person because 'we're too nice' or you dont know any better.

This is exactly what the typical modern American woman (including Americanized me ) do all the time. This is why men call women "bitches" so it's not a coincidence that the title refers to bitches. But do men really love bitches? Or do the shmucks get addicted to them for whatever unhealthy reasons?

 

You let the guy know how you want to be treated - how original! The whole mistery is HOW you show and let know. Being nice and being spineless are too different things. By the way, I looked at a random page in that book and saw something that was literally incorrect. I think it was something about "if XY.. then he will never marry you, he is just dragging you along!" And my husband did what she was talking about and did marry me. When I saw that, I figured the book was BS. She doesn't give any explanations; just statements that she pulls out of her butt.

 

i hated that this girl was soooo sweet all the time. i value her a lot and even told her 'dont be too nice'.

People naturally admire those with more balls and spice. If too nice means too spineless and tasteless, then we are not talking about sweetness at all. A person can be sweet and self-confident and exciting at the same time, without being a jerk.

[Trialbyfire]

I think you and I should both agree that I am right.

No darlin'. We need to agree that I'm right.

[RecordProducer]

No darlin'. We need to agree that I'm right.

No, I am definitely right!

[Trialbyfire]

No, I am definitely right!

No, no, no...I'm most certainly right. Just ask me.

[Pyro]

And guys, why do you run away from the girls with good hearts and go for the selfish girls who treat you like sh*t?

 

Any guy that does that is nuts.

 

I go for the big hearts and the killer smile and eyes.

[SouthernT]

one of my favorite emails---

 

Girls are like apples on trees.

 

The best ones are at the tope of the tree.

 

The boys dont want to reach for the good ones because they are afreaid of falling and getting hurt.

 

Instead, they get the rottoen apples from the ground that arent as good, but easy.

 

So the apples up top think something is wrong with them when in reality, they're amazing.

 

They just have to wait for the right boy to come along, the one who's brave enough to climb all the way to the top of the tree.

[crazy_grl]

Patterns don't come from age, ethnicity or status. They come from a certain type of character.

 

Yes they do. Generally, a 20 year old has a lot different outlook on life and maturity level than a 40 year old and people of different ethnicities and cultures have different views on relationships. A person who's divorced has a different outlook than someone who's not married.

 

Your guys seem to like strong women who dominate them and hate weak and fragile women. That's apretty distinctive pattern.

 

WHAT? Where the hell did you get that idea? I don't think I've ever dated a guy who likes women to dominate him nor have I ever tried to dominate a guy. I think a woman should make her man feel manly, not dominate him.

 

Maybe you thought that that dull guy was one I was dating or something, but I only mentioned him because someone asked about guys I had rejected. I didn't date him at all, because I had zero interest in him.

 

But even if the guys are attracted to a strong women (not dominated by one), that's not really a pattern I can or want to change. To break that pattern, I'd have to become weak, and I'm not going to do that for the sake of having a man. That's like saying I have a distinct pattern of dating men who are attracted to thin women. Well yeah, because I'm thin. If they were attracted to heavy girls, they wouldn't be dating me.

 

I suspect that those "nice" guys are just jerks who like to think of themselves as nice. A realy nice person will seek faults in himself, try to improve his personality and reflect thoroughly on what HE brings to the table. Instead, he proclaims himself as Mr. Wonderful and THAT is why women treat him badly.

 

When I refer to the nice guys, none of them proclaimed themselves to be wonderful. One even talked about how unattractive he was an always wondered why I was dating him. But not all of them have been "nice guys", so that's not even a pattern.

 

Also, I think what some of you see as heartless and manipulative isn't really the same as what I see it as. I haven't thought of a way to explain what I mean yet, but if I do, I will. The best way I've thought of now is that I see a lot of things on this forum that I think are pretty heartless and manipulative that most other posters see as perfectly fine. Like dating a bunch of people at the same time seems pretty heartless to me. (Not necessarily maliciously heartless, just a selfish, empty sort of heartless if that makes any sense.)

Edit: Not that I'm saying there's something wrong with dating multiple people in the initial stages. If it works for you, fine, but I've tried it and it doesn't make me feel very good about myself. It makes me feel heartless.

[muse27]

actually the girl wasnt spineless...she was just really sweet. but i desired the chase along with a sweet girl. i would never go out with an ass no matter how hott they were. yes you can totally be nice and still have balls. i agree. but its just reality most ppl, not all, but most want what they cant have...its sucks to play the game, and ive tried NOT to play the game with potentials before...and well it didnt work out either way. so for me, ive come to accept the fact that its human nature to want the chase whether guy or girl. and im not playing a malicious game; i dont lead ppl on that i dont like.

[crazy_grl]

Good men tend to pay the price for all the cheaters, abusers, sexists who expect a woman to be their slave and no good men in general.

 

At the same time good women pay the price for all the cheaters, walkaway wives, manhaters who enjoy taking a man's heart and cutting into pieces, emotional abuser who nag a man no matter what he does and no good women in general.

 

In short what you have is a whole lot of scarred people of both genders who refuse to let anybody decent in because they are scared of being hurt again.

 

This makes a lot of sense. And of course I know that guys have this problem too. I think I've seen lot more guys saying these things than girls. It's just very disheartening.

[bish]

one of my favorite emails---

 

Girls are like apples on trees.

 

The best ones are at the tope of the tree.

 

The boys dont want to reach for the good ones because they are afreaid of falling and getting hurt.

 

Instead, they get the rottoen apples from the ground that arent as good, but easy.

 

So the apples up top think something is wrong with them when in reality, they're amazing.

 

They just have to wait for the right boy to come along, the one who's brave enough to climb all the way to the top of the tree.

 

Nah...girls are like bananas...they are great when you first get them...but go bad really quickly

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take it easy...just joking

[D-Lish]

Girls, do you know what I'm talking about? And guys, why do you run away from the girls with good hearts and go for the selfish girls who treat you like sh*t?

 

Have you read that book Why Men Love Bitches?

It explains a lot about male/female interaction and why men are attracted to a certain kind of woman.

 

Being hot will always help to get your foot in the door- but maintenance of a relationship requires so many things beyond looks.

Men don't really love a woman who is a bitch.... but they are attracted to independant, confident women who stand on their own feet.

 

Sometimes "nice' comes off as too easy. Men like a challenge. If you appear to have a lot going on and always seem be busy doing your own thing and enjoying your life.... they will find that intriguing. Being too nice and too available takes away the mystery and the challenge.

 

I don't think you have to play games or swear off men forever...lol.

But there is that little dance we all have to go through in the beginning stages to win them over. SO many of my guy friends complain that they meet this strong, confident girl, yet as the relationship progresses, the girl becomes more needy or clingy.... and they find themselves wondering where that independant woman disappeared to.

 

SO, I think (and it's only my opinion) that it is really important to always maintain a seperate and independant life outside your relationship. Do your own thing, see your friends, let them know what behaviour is okay and what is not...

 

It's key to act as if you can function with or without them... That is the challenge they respond too.... at least in my experience. It's not about being mean or dismissive. No one likes a total bitch- but no one likes a doormat either.

 

If you haven't read that book- grab it. I have read a lot of BS silly books abotu men- and this one is a good one. Great insight. I certainly realized after reading it where I went wrong on many occasions. I have also found the advice really useful.

 

I guess the bottom line is- that when a man sees you respecting yourself, not putting up with his BS, and being a little mysterious.... he starts to see you as someone he wants to be with.

[Woggle]

This thread has shown me that men and women really are not much different. This thread sounds like the carbon copy of a nice guy rant and my question to women is the same question I would ask men. Do you really want somebody that will only love and respect you if you treat them like crap? Is this is the type of relationship you are looking for instead of one based on mutual love and respect without the game playing. Sure it is hard to find somebody like that but it is worth it.

[D-Lish]

This thread has shown me that men and women really are not much different. This thread sounds like the carbon copy of a nice guy rant and my question to women is the same question I would ask men. Do you really want somebody that will only love and respect you if you treat them like crap? Is this is the type of relationship you are looking for instead of one based on mutual love and respect without the game playing. Sure it is hard to find somebody like that but it is worth it.

 

 

I think the bottom line is that everyone is insecure in various depths,

I want a nice guy who will treat me with respect- but at the same time- a guy that will confront me on my bad behaviour. I respect that.

 

Usually, we hope that means mutual respect. I can't respect someone who is too needy- and I don't expect someone to want me if I am the same way.

 

The bottom line is that all of us would love to meet someone we could bare our flaws to- and have them accept us as we are.

I actually respect flaws.... I think it's strange if someone is overly perfect. The only way to truly bond with another human being is by revealing.... but revealing makes us vulnerable doesn't it?

 

it's a hard thing to do to make yourself vulnerable to another person.

I have difficulty with it.

[RecordProducer]

The only way to truly bond with another human being is by revealing.... but revealing makes us vulnerable doesn't it?

 

D-Lish, you're a very smart girl. Cute, too! (Perhaps we could meet some day. )

 

I have a feeling that you fall for the bad boys, I dunno why. Am I wrong?

 

I always fall for the "wonderful" guys who end up breaking my heart. No matter how you slice it, they are all bad.

[D-Lish]

D-Lish, you're a very smart girl. Cute, too! (Perhaps we could meet some day. )

 

I have a feeling that you fall for the bad boys, I dunno why. Am I wrong?

 

I always fall for the "wonderful" guys who end up breaking my heart. No matter how you slice it, they are all bad.

 

You're not far off in thinking that I fall for the bad boys.

I haven't always been that way- but since I had a long term relationship with a "nice guy" and it still ended up falling apart.... I've just reverted to dating men I know I shouldn't be. Maybe it's a way of avoiding getting serious because I know it's never going to go anywhere.

 

Human beings are a complicate species.

 

I am attracted to the emotionally unavailable men too.

Another tactic to avoid getting wrapped up in something serious.

 

 

Not all women are bad- nor are all men. It's about finding the right fit I guess. I'm going through that phase where I think the possibility of finding a good fit is not going to happen.

 

How about you?

D

[gonetildecember]

Agree with D-Lish. Why Men Love Bitches is def. worth reading...and touches a lot on some of the issues brought up in this thread. I just finished it.

[Lizzie60]

men loves bitches..

 

Men/women are attracted to independant, strong wo/men..

 

Losers can't put up with a wo/man who is secure and independant..it's too much for them to handle, they feel crushed and walked all over them.. when, it's not true... if the strong person is matched with an equally strong wo/man.

[D-Lish]

That book is truly a insightful read.... and it's not silly-girly like some of the other books I've picked up.

 

My problem is that when I consume a bit of alcohol... I break the cardinal rules of "contact-e-mails-talking about feelings..." lol.

 

I gotta stop that. But the book has helped me to have greater understanding on how men and how to date them.

[halfarock]

men loves bitches..

 

Men/women are attracted to independant, strong wo/men..

 

Losers can't put up with a wo/man who is secure and independant..it's too much for them to handle, they feel crushed and walked all over them.. when, it's not true... if the strong person is matched with an equally strong wo/man.

I agree, except I don’t love bitches.

[halfarock]

To the OP: The pop wisdom of the day says that one has to be cold and manipulative to get someone to fall for them. I think it is all the wrong way to think about it. It’s more like; the ones that don’t like you won’t like you no matter what you do and the ones that do like you will like you no matter what you do to them.

 

I get the idea that most people think (or at least hope) that they are better than they are. Because of this most will be most attracted and pursue those just above them and be pursed by those just below them.

 

Thus one can go out of their way to be nice to one’s love interest and be turned away because the love interest just wasn’t interested. One can then turn to another who is interested in them but not be interested back. With this other one can treat with disrespect and that other will still be interested. One can’t be disrespectful towards their love interest and expect them to suddenly become interested. The disrespect and manipulation only works on those one is not interested in but the other is.

 

Really, as I’ve come to realize, one’s success in love comes, not in playing games but in recognizing those with whom one is most compatible and pursuing only those, not the ones who outclass you or playing with the ones you outclass.

[RecordProducer]

I'm going through that phase where I think the possibility of finding a good fit is not going to happen.

 

How about you?

D

Same here. I have never met a man who remotely resembles the profile I am looking for. One guy might have been Mr. Right, but we were only friends for a couple months, so I can't really say.

 

I am looking for a man with whom I can connect emotionally and intellectually. But, I have two kids, so my guy would have to be great to them and this quality doesn't go hand in hand with intellectuality and depth of mind. I know I couldn't live with my ex-step-daughter. Maybe I can date someone for a few years and we can move in together when my kids are mature enough (in 5-6 years, they are 9 now). My soon-to-be-ex-husband adores my sons, but I know if they were his kids, I would never put up with them. They are wonderful, but they are too lively; if they weren't my babies, I couldn't stand the noise and the mess they make. Of course, I don't mind the things that they do, because I love them more than anything, but if they were somebody else's kids, things would be different.

 

I think living together kills the romance. I know I will meet men, love them and be loved by some, but I have doubts about meeting the kind of man I am longing for.

Men/women are attracted to independant, strong wo/men..

The part that hurts me is that if you're not independent financially, they will mop the floor with your feelings. They can't appreciate you for what you represent on the inside; they judge you by the size of your wallet. I arrived to the US all proud of who I am and the family I come from. However, my husband and his family expected from me to try hard to leave a good impresssion - or should I say, to correct the a priori impression they had about me. My father told me "They wouldn't expect from you to kiss their asses if you were a billionaire's daughter!" He is right. I am sick of this discrimination. It reveals the emptiness of their souls. I, on the other hand, discriminate against them. I poop on their money when they have nothing else in life. I can earn money, but they can never earn what I have: a heart and soul.

[Trialbyfire]

The part that hurts me is that if you're not independent financially, they will mop the floor with your feelings. They can't appreciate you for what you represent on the inside; they judge you by the size of your wallet. I arrived to the US all proud of who I am and the family I come from. However, my husband and his family expected from me to try hard to leave a good impresssion - or should I say, to correct the a priori impression they had about me. My father told me "They wouldn't expect from you to kiss their asses if you were a billionaire's daughter!" He is right. I am sick of this discrimination. It reveals the emptiness of their souls. I, on the other hand, discriminate against them. I poop on their money when they have nothing else in life. I can earn money, but they can never earn what I have: a heart and soul.

Hence why I have never (except as a child) and will never rely on anyone to support me. You're headed in the right direction RP. Independence is necessary in this day and age of disposable marriages. No matter how much someone loves you in the here and now, this can change, so always be prepared so that you have the freedom to not take the crap, if Prince Charming turns into Mr. Froggy.

 

No one should ever need each other in any way. Both of you should want each other in your lives to enrich your lives. Both of you should appreciate each other for a wonderful relationship. Neither should need each other for constant self-validation.

[crazy_grl]

Sorry all, I haven't had time to come on here lately.

 

Being hot will always help to get your foot in the door- but maintenance of a relationship requires so many things beyond looks.

Men don't really love a woman who is a bitch.... but they are attracted to independant, confident women who stand on their own feet.

 

Sometimes "nice' comes off as too easy. Men like a challenge. If you appear to have a lot going on and always seem be busy doing your own thing and enjoying your life.... they will find that intriguing. Being too nice and too available takes away the mystery and the challenge.

 

That's true, but even if you have tons of things to do in your life, you'll have a little down time where you can contact your friends. If you care about someone, they'll be the first person you'll think of talking to. But if you're female and you call a guy, you're needy, clingy, or desperate. A lot of guy friends have told me something along those lines and that girls shouldn't call guys, and I've resisted that idea until now. So if a girl doesn't want to look needy, she either has to sit on her hands and be frustrated as she pretends she doesn't care, even when a guy's not calling her, or she has to genuinely not care.

 

I don't think you have to play games or swear off men forever...lol.

But there is that little dance we all have to go through in the beginning stages to win them over. SO many of my guy friends complain that they meet this strong, confident girl, yet as the relationship progresses, the girl becomes more needy or clingy.... and they find themselves wondering where that independant woman disappeared to.

 

That "independent woman" was most likely never there. The whole time, she was going crazy, waiting for him to call, manipulating hiim into thinking she doesn't care because she's been told that that's how she can reel in a man... like so many posters on this very forum.

 

If you haven't read that book- grab it. I have read a lot of BS silly books abotu men- and this one is a good one. Great insight. I certainly realized after reading it where I went wrong on many occasions. I have also found the advice really useful.

 

Thank you for the suggestion (and everyone else who suggested the book). I'm sure some people will find it helpful, but I'm not interested in reading it.

 

Just to clarify something, I didn't make the OP because I got dumped or rejected. It's not a "Waah. Why doesn't anyone want me?" thing like most of those nice guy threads. There's a guy I met maybe a month or two ago who lives in another state that I talk to. And there's a guy I've been seeing for about a month. What prompted the post was that when we were out, a guy I used to really like years ago and haven't seen since then kissed me. And according to a lot of people, I shouldn't feel bad for any of that because I don't have a commitment to anyone. What makes me sad is that I don't feel bad. In the past, I have and that's why I decided to only date one guy at a time and be really good to him. Now that's resulted in me just not caring.

 

So I just wonder what's the point? To have a guy, I have to either not care or pretend I don't. If I don't care, then what's the point of having a relationship aside from getting regular sex. And I refuse to manipulate and pretend. So what's the point of a relationship if you can't be genuine and treat the other person with respect?

[Trialbyfire]

So what's the point of a relationship if you can't be genuine and treat the other person with respect?

Herein lies the crux of the matter. Do you want a mature relationship or one fraught full of lies and games? You decide what you're willing to settle for.

[crazy_grl]

Herein lies the crux of the matter. Do you want a mature relationship or one fraught full of lies and games? You decide what you're willing to settle for.

 

Except that there's a third option, which is to have neither. At this point, I'd rather have that.