Keeping a man = becoming heartless and manilpulative?

[crazy_grl]

I've had a bit to drink, so forgive me if this is depressing or nonsensical.

 

It just makes me so sad that I can't feel dedicated and committed to one guy. It seems like the more selfish and disrespectful I am to guys, the more they want to be with me. Generally, I think I'm a nice and empathetic person, and I'm very considerate of guys' feelings. I'm not a doormat type. I don't do things to win people's affections. I just makes me feel good to do nice things for people regardless of what I might get in return. But guys don't respect that. In the past, I've been attracted to the "nice guys" that other girls walk on only to be walked on in return by the same guys. And before you make the assumption that it's because I'm ugly and the other girls they adored were hot, that's not the case at all. I know I'm attractive, and I've had people tell me I'm a 10. It seems like it doesn't matter if a girl is attractive or not. If a girl is sweet and kind with a good heart, guys want nothing to do with her. If she's a player who has little respect for the guy, he's in love.

 

I'm sure their must be exceptions, but every guy I've ever dealt with (with the exception of a schizo ex) has been like this and I know of examples from my girl friends that support this.

 

I'm not sure what my point is, but I just feel like I either have to give up on guys completely or become a heartless, manipulative person in order to keep one. I'd really rather just not have a guy than sacrifice being a good person, but this stupid human urge for companionship always gets in the way.

 

Girls, do you know what I'm talking about? And guys, why do you run away from the girls with good hearts and go for the selfish girls who treat you like sh*t?

[Ocean-Blue]

I've had a bit to drink, so forgive me if this is depressing or nonsensical.

 

It just makes me so sad that I can't feel dedicated and committed to one guy. It seems like the more selfish and disrespectful I am to guys, the more they want to be with me. Generally, I think I'm a nice and empathetic person, and I'm very considerate of guys' feelings. I'm not a doormat type. I don't do things to win people's affections. I just makes me feel good to do nice things for people regardless of what I might get in return. But guys don't respect that. In the past, I've been attracted to the "nice guys" that other girls walk on only to be walked on in return by the same guys. And before you make the assumption that it's because I'm ugly and the other girls they adored were hot, that's not the case at all. I know I'm attractive, and I've had people tell me I'm a 10. It seems like it doesn't matter if a girl is attractive or not. If a girl is sweet and kind with a good heart, guys want nothing to do with her. If she's a player who has little respect for the guy, he's in love.

 

I'm sure their must be exceptions, but every guy I've ever dealt with (with the exception of a schizo ex) has been like this and I know of examples from my girl friends that support this.

 

I'm not sure what my point is, but I just feel like I either have to give up on guys completely or become a heartless, manipulative person in order to keep one. I'd really rather just not have a guy than sacrifice being a good person, but this stupid human urge for companionship always gets in the way.

 

Girls, do you know what I'm talking about? And guys, why do you run away from the girls with good hearts and go for the girls who treat you like sh*t?

 

I'd have to politely disagree with you.

 

Some men would make the same argument.

 

I think it's an individual thing. Sometimes people keep attracting the same kind of person without realizing it.

 

Have you ever rejected a guy? If so, what were the circumstances. I'd sit down and look at my preferences, etc if I were you. Making generalizations won't really help you in sorting out your apparent problems with men.

 

Does that make sense?

[Woggle]

You sound like the female version of a nice guy. Switch around the genders and this thread would sound exactly like a nice guy rant. Most men would love to have a woman in their life that treats them well and always does things to show they love him so I don't know where you are meeting these guys.

[crazy_grl]

I think it's an individual thing. Sometimes people keep attracting the same kind of person without realizing it.

 

I've thought about that before, but there's not a lot of similarity in the guys I go out with. Some have been shy; some have been outgoing. Some are 20; some are nearly 40. Some never married; some divorced. Some had f*cked up childhoods; some have practically perfect families. Various ethnicities. There's very little similarity as far as personalities, backgrounds, or anything really. Nothing that seems to be a pattern that I can see.

 

Have you ever rejected a guy? If so, what were the circumstances.

 

Let's see. One guy was just dull as a brick. He's a decent guy, but he has no personality and no spirit. He's depressing to be around. Another guy I liked at first until a guy that I'd sort of dated in the past came to visit me. I realized I didn't feel as strongly about the other guy as I did about the guy from the past and saw no point in continuing something when I felt more for someone else. One guy a long time ago seemed like he was trying to manipulate me into being like his ex. I can't think of any more at the moment.

 

I'd sit down and look at my preferences, etc if I were you.

 

Done that. I even tried dating guys I wasn't that attracted to because I thought maybe there was something wrong with the type of guys I was attracted to. No different results.

 

You sound like the female version of a nice guy. Switch around the genders and this thread would sound exactly like a nice guy rant.

 

Yeah, except that most of the guys in those nice guy threads are being "nice" because they have low self-esteem and are desperate to keep a girl. And usually when they do something "nice" they're only doing it in hopes of getting something back. None of those apply to me.

 

Most men would love to have a woman in their life that treats them well and always does things to show they love him

 

I'd like to believe that, but experience has taught me otherwise. Of course, a lot of them have eventually realized how stupid they were to turn me down, but I very rarely give second chances.

[Ocean-Blue]

OK, if it's not "them", then it has to be something you are doing (right)? After all, you are the common denominator.

 

Have you considered your actions? Perhaps you are too nice...perhaps you give that "door mat" vibe without knowing it? A girl doesn't necessarily have to be ugly to be treated poorly.

 

This a mere question/suggestion. I am in no way stating that you ARE the problem. Just trying to help you think it out.

[gonetildecember]

I somewhat agree with you OP.

 

Just seeing the trend in general, with friends and their partners (both male and female) although there are many exceptions.

 

I understand what you mean when you say that you enjoy genuinely doing nice things for people without expecting anything back, but then it turns into a situation where the other person takes it for granted all together and withdraws effort all together.

 

I'm not sure...I don't see myself of other people who have experienced similar situations as "doormats" but 50 pages into "Why men love bitches" I can tell you they probably do share some "doormat" qualities.

 

It does suck that you feel you have to turn into a heartless and maipulative person in order to get someone who actually respects you and loves you.. I don't think that is the case...but maybe it's time that people re-evaluate their "niceness" and learn not to confuse niceness with overcompensating to gain/keep/win someone's affections.

 

Def. know what you mean tho... in the past it seems all the males I pushed away or weren't totally into were the ones that would have killed to be with me.. and the ones that I showered with affection and gave my whole heart to were the ones that took it all for granted.

[Trialbyfire]

All I can say is if your relationship deteriorates to games, it's toast...

[squeak]

Yes, I agree with TBF. When things don't work out, people-men and women-will say "oh-it was because I was too nice and nice people finish last".

 

But-there are so many other factors. What kind of feeling are you creating within the context of a budding relationship? What kind of world are you offering? Have you noticed when you walk into different stores , each one has it's own vibe and you feel comfortable or not depending on what the vibe is promising?

 

Well-in our commodified society-you have to see yourself as a commodity too. Have you ever been around people who can create a world everyone wants to be a part of? Some people try to do this by having parties and festivities all the time-but that is not quite right because it has to manifest from within you.

 

So-if you are a commodity-what are your strengths anweaknesses? What are you bringing to his world? What do you expect him to bring to yours?

 

By the way-what are you doing drinking at 6AM???

[crazy_grl]

Have you considered your actions? Perhaps you are too nice...perhaps you give that "door mat" vibe without knowing it? A girl doesn't necessarily have to be ugly to be treated poorly.

 

I think that's essentially what I was saying. Guys usually make assumptions that I'm needy or whatever just because I'm considerate toward them and not looking for attention from other guys.

 

Well-in our commodified society-you have to see yourself as a commodity too. Have you ever been around people who can create a world everyone wants to be a part of?

 

At the risk of sounding conceited, I think I am one of those people. I try to make sure everyone is having a good time and to make people smile.

 

So-if you are a commodity-what are your strengths anweaknesses? What are you bringing to his world? What do you expect him to bring to yours?

 

Without going into a long and boring list, I bring pletty. I have a good job. I'm outgoing without having to be the center of attention. I expect him to be considerate and sweet to me but not have his entire world revolve around me. I want a guy to go out with me to parties/bars, and be either into playing sports, music or doing outdoors stuff so we can do some of those things together. I expect a guy to go out and do his own thing sometimes without trying to pick up on girls and to trust me to do the same. And maybe above all, I expect him to be a positive person, because I am (except for those times when I've been drinking and can't sleep).

 

By the way-what are you doing drinking at 6AM???

 

Uh... it wasn't 6 am here. I went out for someone's birthday and came home right after the bar closed. The times on the posts are about 3 hours ahead of my time zone.

[RecordProducer]

I've thought about that before, but there's not a lot of similarity in the guys I go out with. Some have been shy; some have been outgoing. Some are 20; some are nearly 40. Some never married; some divorced. Some had f*cked up childhoods; some have practically perfect families. Various ethnicities. There's very little similarity as far as personalities, backgrounds, or anything really. Nothing that seems to be a pattern that I can see.

Patterns don't come from age, ethnicity or status. They come from a certain type of character. Your guys seem to like strong women who dominate them and hate weak and fragile women. That's apretty distinctive pattern.

 

One guy was just dull as a brick. He's a decent guy, but he has no personality and no spirit.

Weak men like strong women to fill up their own gap. And vice versa. A man in a skirt will want a woman in pants (sorry for the "politically incorrect" metaphor ).

 

Yeah, except that most of the guys in those nice guy threads are being "nice" because they have low self-esteem and are desperate to keep a girl. And usually when they do something "nice" they're only doing it in hopes of getting something back. None of those apply to me.

I suspect that those "nice" guys are just jerks who like to think of themselves as nice. A realy nice person will seek faults in himself, try to improve his personality and reflect thoroughly on what HE brings to the table. Instead, he proclaims himself as Mr. Wonderful and THAT is why women treat him badly. Of course, there are always these people who are nothing but nice, but their partners walk all over them (usually cheat, use, neglect or lie). For some reason these nice guys are only nice to the women that treat them badly. That brings us to the reverse logic: being nice is not the cause of mistreatment; mistreatment causes a guy to start acting nicely.

 

I

'm not sure what my point is, but I just feel like I either have to give up on guys completely or become a heartless, manipulative person in order to keep one. I'd really rather just not have a guy than sacrifice being a good person, but this stupid human urge for companionship always gets in the way.

No, you should be or pretend to be a heartless person. I think you ned to find the right man for you and treat him nicely. Dating is different from marriages. Once you get married, being a heartless, manipulative bitch will not bring happiness in your life. Many men stick to their manipulative wives (I know some), but they are not happy. Nor are the wives.

[analyseThis]

A lot of men who I talk to will get repulsed or have no respect for a manipulative/heartless girls (obviously these are men who are self sufficient, accomplished, goal oriented, confident and experienced individuals), also one of the main reasons why chivalry died in most men is because of these manipulative/heartless girls out there who in turn leave a man very bitter and manipulative and heartless themselves. Its a continuous cycle.

 

I honestly think the guys who are attracted to girls who are manipulative and heartless are just desperate (inexperienced) and or have very low-self esteem and will use the "Iam a nice guy" term a lot; or the guys who are just looking for one thing, what I classify as the "pump and dump" category of men who have only one thing on their mind when it comes to women.

 

So if your attracting guys like this; and most importantly have a high turnover on your relationships which it would seem so from your previous posts, then I would humbly suggest before pointing the finger at men; maybe you should look at yourself as a person; analyze not just from the outside; but from the inside as well. Maybe restructure or rebuild your priorities, standards, behavioral patterns and expectations before getting into another relationship. This is just a suggestion not something to be taken seriously.

[bish]

I've had a bit to drink, so forgive me if this is depressing or nonsensical.

 

It just makes me so sad that I can't feel dedicated and committed to one guy. It seems like the more selfish and disrespectful I am to guys, the more they want to be with me.

 

Girls, do you know what I'm talking about? And guys, why do you run away from the girls with good hearts and go for the selfish girls who treat you like sh*t?

 

The type of man that flocks towards you when you are a wench to them are weak.

 

A man with any self respect and maturity won't put up with sh#t like that.

[Lucky555]

iI myself have been the type of person who would make the guy feel secure in the relationship and then he uses that as a "weapon" because he knows that your already vulnerable and he thinks he got you hooked. I am not saying guys are awful that do this its more so hurts when things don't go smoothly because you think you have given it your all. But obviously the type of guy that has no regard for your feelings is not the type of guy you need to be with.

 

I used to think that dating one guy at a time was good...but then when that guy hurts your or it just doesn't work out, you begin to reevaluate your strategies and you ask yourself what the hell you are doing and what should u be doing.

 

Relationships are not easy, but in some instances you have to say i am not tolerating your behavior and then you take action and have to be cold or else he won't get it. Men are not mind readers and they are not perfect. I think that if he starts acting like a jerk..then you do have to essentially let him know that it is not good for your relationship and you mayhave to move on if it doesn't change.

 

Example: this guy i was seeing would always say "i win" whenever we were discussing a topic and he wanted to make a point. I thought this is hurtful because a relationship isn't competing with someone its becoming a unit. However, he had learned this behavior in his last relationship, where his ex would compete with him and it did hurt him and he stayed in that relationship and hence SHE IS HIS EX now. YAY, i would not want to see anyone in a relationship like that where he has to be hurt like that..she essentially made him feel like less of a man. So, now when he is trying to enter a new relationship he says "i win" and i have learned to stop and look at him like what are you doing i am not against you. I have even told him that i am not like this and its not nice to do that to someone. And i can tell he feels better knowing that i wouldn't want to hurt him like that.when he told me this about the competing he looked sad but its something that has to be worked on and its a behavior that can change with support from someone who cares about him. Even if this never bloomed into a relationship with him i would want him to know that i cared and it was good seeing him while it lasted. So here you have an example of a good guy with "learned behavior" that became a "habit" that needs to "change"

He actually just looks at me and feels ashamed that he would even say that but like i said it has become a habit and i think he wants to change it.

 

SO some guys are horrible and some guys just need support NO ONE IS PERFECT! I wish i could find a guy that has all the qualities right off the bat but i see that this would never happen and little things like this shouldn't stand in the way.

[Valley Lilly]

It seems like it doesn't matter if a girl is attractive or not. If a girl is sweet and kind with a good heart, guys want nothing to do with her. If she's a player who has little respect for the guy, he's in love

 

The guy i love, well, said no to me (im sweet and kind and with a good heart, and cute too), and said yes to an ugly (well, i know this is relative) girl who treated him like a doormat and dumped him a few months later.

[Woggle]

I lso think that many men just don't trust a woman that treats them well. Many men assume that a woman must have an ulterior motive and if a good woman ends up turning on him and turns into a witch overnight the hurt is much greater. I usually feel that a woman is up to something if she is that nice.

[RecordProducer]

Example: this guy i was seeing would always say "i win" whenever we were discussing a topic and he wanted to make a point. I thought this is hurtful because a relationship isn't competing with someone its becoming a unit. However, he had learned this behavior in his last relationship, where his ex would compete with him and it did hurt him and he stayed in that relationship and hence SHE IS HIS EX now.

 

SO some guys are horrible and some guys just need support NO ONE IS PERFECT! I wish i could find a guy that has all the qualities right off the bat but i see that this would never happen and little things like this shouldn't stand in the way.

I whole-heartedly agree. A relationship shouldn't be about eliminating everyone who is not perfect. It should be about working on the faults, if they are workable. I decided to work on my marriage by learning to deal with my husband's faults (or what I perceive as his faults). Of course, he has no idea!

 

I just realized that his character flaws were workable and tolerable, but I was 100% intolerant, impatient, and demanding. And here we come to a very important point: what makes a bitch. I was screaming and insulting, but I can't say I was a bitch. I wasn't manipulative or sneaky. I never lied or had hidden agendas. Being a bitch doesn't mean bitching! Being a bitch and keeping a man around your finger is an art that most of us will never (want to) master.

 

I also think that many men just don't trust a woman that treats them well. Many men assume that a woman must have an ulterior motive and if a good woman ends up turning on him and turns into a witch overnight the hurt is much greater. I usually feel that a woman is up to something if she is that nice.

I think many men have insecurity and are scared sh*tless of being hurt. Unlike women who communicate their emotions easily, men are not allowed to build a support group or show weakness; it's a cultural tabboo. My mother thinks that people who are very emotional and express their feelings abundantly and with ease, let the bad feelings out quickly and effectively. I also think that women are well equipped to receive emotional pain, get rid of it, and move on. This probably comes from motherhood instinct: a woman who took care of her baby had to be prepared to lose it (not suggesting that we are prepared to lose our children, but we are better prepared for losing other people, even though we are more sensitive by nature than men are). Just MO.

[brothermartin]

I lso think that many men just don't trust a woman that treats them well. Many men assume that a woman must have an ulterior motive and if a good woman ends up turning on him and turns into a witch overnight the hurt is much greater. I usually feel that a woman is up to something if she is that nice.

 

Now you know why these guys you've met turn on you. Consider the women that came before you. I'm keeping myself at arms length right now from any woman that seems too nice or even mentions something to do with relationship because of the huge f**king scarr my ex has left me with. But I'm still a nice guy. Just not to the women that stirr my paranoia.

[shadowplay]

I lso think that many men just don't trust a woman that treats them well. Many men assume that a woman must have an ulterior motive and if a good woman ends up turning on him and turns into a witch overnight the hurt is much greater. I usually feel that a woman is up to something if she is that nice.

 

I kind of get this sense too, especially if a guy has low self esteem. I treat my bf very well, and he recently said to me "why do you like me?" And that part of him is kind of shocked that I do; he keeps thinking to himself "why me?"

[Woggle]

Good men tend to pay the price for all the cheaters, abusers, sexists who expect a woman to be their slave and no good men in general.

 

At the same time good women pay the price for all the cheaters, walkaway wives, manhaters who enjoy taking a man's heart and cutting into pieces, emotional abuser who nag a man no matter what he does and no good women in general.

 

In short what you have is a whole lot of scarred people of both genders who refuse to let anybody decent in because they are scared of being hurt again.

[Trialbyfire]

I think many men have insecurity and are scared sh*tless of being hurt. Unlike women who communicate their emotions easily, men are not allowed to build a support group or show weakness; it's a cultural tabboo. My mother thinks that people who are very emotional and express their feelings abundantly and with ease, let the bad feelings out quickly and effectively. I also think that women are well equipped to receive emotional pain, get rid of it, and move on. This probably comes from motherhood instinct: a woman who took care of her baby had to be prepared to lose it (not suggesting that we are prepared to lose our children, but we are better prepared for losing other people, even though we are more sensitive by nature than men are). Just MO.

I will disagree with you, particularly the bolded statement.

 

Strength is valued in both genders. In my family, we weren't allowed the luxury of feeling sorry for ourselves or whining about things, whether we were girls or boys. Think about what's bothering you, address it, then pick yourself up and move on.

 

To suggest that women can handle more pain and move on, would be limiting men to boyhood status so they don't learn how to handle emotions. Pain is pain and suffered by both genders.

[Sean0775]

The type of man that flocks towards you when you are a wench to them are weak.

 

A man with any self respect and maturity won't put up with sh#t like that.

Quoted for truth. If a woman is heartless and manipulative I always just walk away, then proceed to tell everyone I know about it just in case. The last part is just me complaining after a drink or two rather than seeking people out and telling them, but at least my close friends are warned then.

[muse27]

i just finished reading 'why men love bitches' and turned my other girls onto reading it. totally recommend it to the ladies. now before the men start backlashing, its not so much about being an abrasive bitch, but rather how much you let the guy know you respect yourself and how you want to be treated. doesnt say anything about not being a nice person, just not putting up with mistreatment and then making excuses for the person because 'we're too nice' or you dont know any better.

 

i've always kinda been living the guy role as well. i lived for the chase, even though i said i hated playing the games. dated a model who was hott, super nice, and intelligent..but loss interest because he couldnt keep me on my toes. the book can go vice versa and id even recommend nice guys to read it cause it has lots of good insight.

 

..and then..not to seem even more of a serial dater..ha...im bisexual, so ive even had

a girlfriend. she was pretty and smart..and totally nice!..im totally a femme girl, but i hated that this girl was soooo sweet all the time. i value her a lot and even told her 'dont be too nice'.

[RecordProducer]

I will disagree with you, particularly the bolded statement.

 

Strength is valued in both genders. In my family, we weren't allowed the luxury of feeling sorry for ourselves or whining about things, whether we were girls or boys. Think about what's bothering you, address it, then pick yourself up and move on.

 

To suggest that women can handle more pain and move on, would be limiting men to boyhood status so they don't learn how to handle emotions. Pain is pain and suffered by both genders.

Right. I don't disagree with this. I was also taught not to feel sorry for myself, but take charge of my life and deal with the situation in a practical way. I've just noticed that most women accept the risk of being hurt with open arms, while men dread the remote possibility of it.

 

Also, women generally have the attitude: does he make me happy? Men have the attitude: am I making her happy? (Just like about orgasm). I think men are crushed when they fail to please their partner emotionally or sexually or financially or intellectually. Women don't even think about whether they make their partners happy. They only think about how (un)happy THEY themselves are. But I don't think this is pure selfishness; again, I think it's a relic from antiquity.

 

I am convinced that every person wants to feel good about themselves and if you manage to make them feel good, they will love you forever. The question is: what makes them feel good? Every person is different, but generally men differ from women as groups. A woman needs emotional connection, affection, an ear (24/7) , compliments, romance, passion; she also wants to be able to rely on the man (her prince) completely, if necessary. Most of the time, a man doesn't give a rat's ass about any of this. He wants respect, peace, trust, tolerance (freedom); he wants to feel like a man, he needs care and demonstration of love through actions. A little favor or a sandwich will mean more to him than a romantic massage (unless his back hurts) or glamorous compliments.

 

You know the fable about the fox and the stork... the fox invited the stork for dinner and gave him soup in a shallow plate. The stork tried to peck the soup with his beak, but he couldn't. So he remained hungry. Next time, the stork invited the fox to his house for dinner. This time the stork (without being vindictive or anything) offered the fox a meal in a long, narrow dish - suitable for the stork, but not for the fox. So this time, the fox stayed hungry.

 

The message is: we offer each other what we need and want to receive, but most of the time, that's not what our partners want. If you want to be somebody's soul mate - do what they do. And to close the point: what's bitchy and what's nice could be seen from many different perspectives and through the prism of various factors. Who is to tell "I am a nice person"? Was the stork or the fox a better host?

 

If a woman is heartless and manipulative I always just walk away, then proceed to tell everyone I know about it just in case. ... at least my close friends are warned then.

Do your friends have the habit of hooking up with your exes, so you disperse warnings/recommendations about them around?

[Trialbyfire]

Also, women generally have the attitude: does he make me happy? Men have the attitude: am I making her happy? (Just like about orgasm). I think men are crushed when they fail to please their partner emotionally or sexually or financially or intellectually. Women don't even think about whether they make their partners happy. They only think about how (un)happy THEY themselves are. But I don't think this is pure selfishness; again, I think it's a relic from antiquity.

 

You and I have a completely different outlook on this. Of what I've noticed, it's been completely the other way around. I'm thinking that neither one of us should be generalizing in this aspect.

 

Gender aside, there are two types of people. Givers and takers.

[underpants]

Gender aside, there are two types of people. Givers and takers.

 

I have heard this same thing.

 

The best scenerio is to have 2 core givers.