recgonize a "change"???

[base618]

Ok, to catchup, married a year, trying have a baby for a year, can't, wife depressed, emotional affair with a coworker, not sure if she loves me, etc.

 

So last Monday I found out about her EA and she promised to end it. We started counseling. After she promised to end it, I looked at her IE history and saw she was still looking at his myspace page, and other pages that weren't indicitive of "trying to make it work" so I turned on the keylogging software that I had installed, but felt guilty about using.

 

Tuesday night at dinner, steelers highlights were on, and she said she's always wanted to go to a steelers game, but tix are too expensive. I suggested that since we don't know where we're going to be at during x-mas (if together at all) why don't we just get the tix as our gifts to each other and it would be something we would both look forward to. She accused me of being too optimistic, which led to a long discussion of just how NOT optimistic I am. We talked about all the factors of how we would get divorced (living arrangements, cats, finances, etc.) She feels the need to 'run' and wants to move away no matter what (either alone, or the two of us). I told her since either way, it looks like we won't be living in the house, why not just sell it and have one less stress in our life as we're trying to work on things. She seemed happy about that.

 

So... that night, I found out she went upstairs and sent the following email:

 

So I just really needed to tell you abou this. t I just had a surreal conversation with *** about things if we don't make it. And basically at the end of it, since he knows that regardless of how things go I want to move, he suggested that we go ahead and put the house up for sale. He's going to find a realtor and we'll probably put it up next week. It's crazy, but I think it's the best thing we could do. I will feel so relieved when I'm out from under this place. Once the house is gone, I think the only thing keeping me here will be you and finding a job elsewhere. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you about that.

 

Then this email:

 

I hope it's ok to say that. I know you said you want to take it one step at a time. I'm not sure

what that means so I'm just going to do what I need to and you can let me know what you want to do.

It never did feel like home.

If you've decided you don't want to leave Philadelphia with me I'll understand. Just please let me Sometimes I think of all these things I want to share with you, but I am scared that I'm bothering you so I don't.

 

 

 

Notice the "..only thing keeping me here will be you..." part. So she came home wednesday night from happy hour, and I confronted her. She denied talking to him, and was very angry that I suspected her. She threw her phone at me telling me to go ahead and check (checking her phone is how I found out in the 1st place). I said no... but I asked her if she emailed him lately, she said no. I asked her if after we sell the house, is the only thing keeping her her him. She said no... but started to realize I knew. I blew up, told her about the keylogging software, knew she was lying, knew everything. Told her it's over, I'm calling a lawyer, want a divorce etc. She completely broke down and over the next few hours of talking/fighting, I think the realization of what her actions have been doing were sinking in. Up until now, she's had the best of both worlds, I have been supportive, doing laundry, grocery shopping, giving her space etc. (she's been studying for a certification test that is in a week). All the while she was able to talk/fantasize about running away with him.

 

I know my wife 'pretty' well, and her demeaner has changed somewhat. Now here's the kicker. She grew up in Pittsburgh, and the OM is from Pitts. A lot of their texts back and forth were about the steelers winning. She never changed her password to her yahoo account (I let her watch me take the keylogging software off, but I guess she doesn't realize I got her passwords with it). So wednesday, when I had to get a shower to leave for IC, she purchased two tickets to the steelers game on Dec 30th, right after our fight/talk.

 

So either she purchased them on my suggestion that we go, and she's trying to make it work, or she's planning on going with him. I can't tell.

 

I told her that I would wait to call a lawyer until after her test, her life is in a tailspin. Turns out the OM's live in girlfriend found his texts, and has been stalking my wife, calling, and trying to follow her home. Her life is a complete mess, and part of me knows that making a hugh decision like divorce while she's out of her mind isn't fair. The other part of me says that she caused all this, and to leave. I figured for the sake of our marriage, past 6 years, I would at least wait. I guess I'll know for sure on the 30th.

 

Any input?

[Chrome Barracuda]

Stay on track as long as she knows your serious about the divorce.

 

Either she ends the affair and recommits or she leaves no exceptions. Hopefully you have no kids!

 

If you dont then you got nothing holding you back!

[Ladyjane14]

Why are you putting yourself through all this???

You don't have any children together, you've got less than six years invested, and this isn't the first time she's displayed a lack of awareness as to what a committed relationship means, as you well know. So... what's so magical here?

 

Are you just feeling guilty for your part in her last break-up? Do you believe this is some kind of karmic payback and that you somehow deserve this kind of treatment?

 

It doesn't matter WHAT she's telling you, those emails are completely incriminating. From here, it looks like the only thing keeping her away from the OM is the fact that he hasn't dumped his committed partner. It's NOT her love and respect for YOU. You said as much in your last thread... that you suspect she's self-gratifying in her motives for staying.

 

Frankly, I don't see what's worth saving here. It might be some magical coochie, I dunno. But... who's to say that you won't find "magic" with somebody else who might also happen to be FAITHFUL. Hell, you won't know unless you extricate yourself from this mess and get out there looking.

[Curmudgeon]

Why are you putting yourself through all this???

 

If my wife was e-mailing another man and telling him that he was the only thing keeping her here where we live it would be a self-fulfilling prophesy because I'd be gone and she'd be completely free.

 

Of course, if I felt I needed to check my wife's cell phone and put a key-logger on our home computer, I'd be gone as well. When the trust goes, the marriage leaves with it.

[Ladyjane14]

If my wife was e-mailing another man and telling him that he was the only thing keeping her here where we live it would be a self-fulfilling prophesy because I'd be gone and she'd be completely free.

 

Of course, if I felt I needed to check my wife's cell phone and put a key-logger on our home computer, I'd be gone as well. When the trust goes, the marriage leaves with it.

 

How in the world do these guys keep falling in for this kind of thing, Curm?

 

Seriously, maybe you can explain, from a male POV, from a guy who's been around the block... why it's so hard for guys to believe that women aren't always "sugar-and-spice-and-everything-nice". (????)

 

Some days, it seems to me that men are almost polarized on their outlook regarding women. On the one side, the screaming misogynist, who believes all women are just insensate evil, ready to spring some horrible trap on them... and on the other, the knight-in-shining-armor who thinks we're all just confused little girls who can't be expected to exercise rational control of our emotions or actions.

 

Maybe it's just me ...but sometimes it seems there are damn few guys who see us with the clarity of view they're capable of when observing other men.

 

Is this an aspect of male sexuality?.. or maybe brain function? Does it have to do with early childhood experiences where women are the dominant authority?

[base618]

Guess maybe I should reply here before everyone gets too mad at me

 

In the discussions I've had with my wife recently, it is quite clear that she is in the midst of some crisis, depression, who knows what else. Trying to have a baby has her in a horrible place in her mind.

 

That being said, prior to the last few months, never thought I would need to check her phone, never thought I would be putting keylogging software on her PC, never thought I'd be in marriage counseling.

 

Had we not been trying to have a baby, and things were good (the way they were before the pregnancy didn't work) and I found out about an affair, I too would have her bags packed right away and be throwing her out. My difficulty in ending things is there are outside circumstances going on. I can at least understand that mentally she's not there, I see it, she admits it, her life is in a tailspin.

 

It hasn't been 6 years of suspicion and mistrust. It's been 6 weeks of a complete turnaround in our lives. The time leading up to that has been great.

 

I am contacting a lawyer today, and I will start the process of whatever it means to start a divorce. I will have the papers in my hand ready, at any second to go through with it if I don't see an effort. Actually, I think I'll wrap them as a gift, and if the tickets were for him (i.e. not a gift for us), I'll give her the papers as an x-mas gift.

 

I think it boils down to being able understand the *why* someone is doing something, and be willing to throw everything away on such a short history of being crazy. Not that it's an excuse, but she's been pumped full of hormones for the pregnancy. I've talked to other women who've been through that, and they said it made them crazy and they did things they never thought they would (none of them cheated). Not justifying it, and to be honest, I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust her again. Also, I'm waiting to see if it works, but I'm not sure this won't happen again, and I'm still making up my mind if I want to stay, that's not a given. Don't want to stay and have this happen again in 5 years.

 

I'm just struggling with how long I should give things. From the people on this board, it sounds like I've already waited too long. We have another counseling session on Monday, I'll see how that goes.

[sedgwick]

IT IS NOT OKAY TO INVADE HER PRIVACY IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE!!!! Period. I broke up with my ex when I found out he'd been reading my email. If I found out someone was checking my phone and using keylogging software, that would be IT. I would have zero attraction or respect for them after that. Zero. Zilch. None.

 

It doesn't matter what she's doing, you have NO right to spy on her. You can talk to her, you can ask her about it, but reading her email and checking her phone is a huge invasion of privacy. I am always just staggered when I see all the people on here who are reading their ex's email, getting into their phones, logging into their myspace accounts. It is absolutely not okay in any way whatsoever.

[base618]

IT IS NOT OKAY TO INVADE HER PRIVACY IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE!!!! Period. I broke up with my ex when I found out he'd been reading my email. If I found out someone was checking my phone and using keylogging software, that would be IT. I would have zero attraction or respect for them after that. Zero. Zilch. None.

 

It doesn't matter what she's doing, you have NO right to spy on her. You can talk to her, you can ask her about it, but reading her email and checking her phone is a huge invasion of privacy. I am always just staggered when I see all the people on here who are reading their ex's email, getting into their phones, logging into their myspace accounts. It is absolutely not okay in any way whatsoever.

 

I DID ask her if she was talking to him, she said NO. I asked if she had emailed him, she said NO. had I not done what I did, I would be thinking everything is OK and hoping things would work out. I am not ashamed of what I did. I am sitting here making plans for a divorce because I know my wife is a liar. I'm just struggling with how long to wait until she becomes sane again. I'm not saying it was right, but I'm 2 for 2 when i was suspicious and checked. I'm in a better place for it. You can judge me, but I would do it again. Also, I haven't been checking her email for the past 6 years, only when all this happenned, I had multiple reasons to be suspicious, and I acted on them. Were you giving your ex reasons to check your email? Did he find anything? I agree, if I checked her email all the time when things were all rosey, that is wrong. This is real life, and my wife is lying, trying to run away with another man. As far as I'm concerned, the gloves are off.

 

I'll tell you this, I know she deletes text messages now. I can't see what she's sending, but I can log in everyday to sprint and see how many she sent. I've been keeping a log. She's going to be away all weekend studying. If I see 40 to 50 texts this weekend, I'll ask her who they were to. If she doesn't tell me, or they're all deleted off the phone.. DIVORCE! is it wrong of me to check how many texts she's sending when this is my life we're talking about?

[reboot]

Maybe it's just me ...but sometimes it seems there are damn few guys who see us with the clarity of view they're capable of when observing other men.

 

Is this an aspect of male sexuality?.. or maybe brain function? Does it have to do with early childhood experiences where women are the dominant authority?

Women are vastly more complicated than we are. Men are quite simple creatures really. That's why we have no trouble understanding each other for the most part, but are often completely clueless when dealing with the opposite sex. While our women are plying us for our deepest feelings, we're sitting there thinking about who's going to be in the playoffs or if anyone is going to notice if we scratch.

 

Now, that was said in a bit of a joking tone, just so no one misunderstands me, but there's more than a modicom of truth in it.

 

We don't have the right brain/left brain thing you guys have going on, and we typically aren't raised to know how to deal with emotional stuff, so we're often at a real disadvantage when it comes to dealing with you. I suspect it was much easier when we lived in caves and could just hit you in the head with a big stick.

 

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess it's that men compartmentalize things. And so, since we don't understand you, we categorize you. It's not right, and it's not fair. It's just easier.

[reboot]

IT IS NOT OKAY TO INVADE HER PRIVACY IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE!!!! Period. I broke up with my ex when I found out he'd been reading my email. If I found out someone was checking my phone and using keylogging software, that would be IT. I would have zero attraction or respect for them after that. Zero. Zilch. None.

 

It doesn't matter what she's doing, you have NO right to spy on her. You can talk to her, you can ask her about it, but reading her email and checking her phone is a huge invasion of privacy. I am always just staggered when I see all the people on here who are reading their ex's email, getting into their phones, logging into their myspace accounts. It is absolutely not okay in any way whatsoever.

Marriage is about two becoming one. That means there should be no secrets. And if there are no secrets, it is no invasion. You should probably not get married.

[Ladyjane14]

My difficulty in ending things is there are outside circumstances going on. I can at least understand that mentally she's not there, I see it, she admits it, her life is in a tailspin.

 

But there will ALWAYS be "outside circumstances", Base.

 

I went through nearly a decade of infertility treatment myself before I had kids. It's no picnic, but it doesn't MAKE people cheat. Over the course of your lives, there's always going to be something going on which is external to the relationship or causing stress. People don't live in a bubble. There's job stress, aging parents, kids misbehaving, friends dealing with illness, you name it, it's on the horizon. Life is not static, it's fluid... AND it's challenging.

 

You're making excuses for her. And regardless of what your final outcome is, it behooves neither of you to do so because it doesn't get to the root of the problem.

 

 

p.s. Don't worry about looking through her emails. There's a difference between secrecy and privacy. And it's not like there wasn't justifiable cause to search for secrets. She was lying to you and tipped her hand enough to make you suspicious. If she hadn't behaved in a suspicious manner, doubtless you wouldn't have made a point of looking.

[Ladyjane14]

I suspect it was much easier when we lived in caves and could just hit you in the head with a big stick.

 

Too funny!! :lmao:

... and expedient enough for the guy anyway.

 

I doubt it was such a nice solution for the woman involved, although it probably didn't require all the energy we utilize today in making our choices. That's like your shoes jumping out of the closet and beating you in the head 'til you put 'em on. Saves time on figuring out which pair you'll wear.

[sumdude]

 

I think it boils down to being able understand the *why* someone is doing something, and be willing to throw everything away on such a short history of being crazy. Not that it's an excuse, but she's been pumped full of hormones for the pregnancy. I've talked to other women who've been through that, and they said it made them crazy and they did things they never thought they would (none of them cheated). Not justifying it, and to be honest, I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust her again.

 

 

My ex was also on some hard core hormones when were trying to conceive.... it made her almost insane for all practical purposes. The mood swings became almost intolerable .. for both of us.

It's been over a year now and we recently had a conversation where she brought that up ... and she feels like only now is she coming down from them.

 

I think she described it as if she had a red hot rod of steel that came in through the top of her skull and out of her bottom.

 

Plus the fact that she couldn't conceive completely changed her self perception as well as the meaning of marriage for her. IOW why be married and commited if not to raise children? Add to that seeing 40 right around the corner etc etc

 

Doesn't change the fact that she left me without warning and ended the marriage ... and whatever else she may have done.

[Ladyjane14]

I guess it's that men compartmentalize things. And so, since we don't understand you, we categorize you. It's not right, and it's not fair. It's just easier.

 

I hadn't thought of that. It sounds like a reasonable enough explanation though.

[Curmudgeon]

How in the world do these guys keep falling in for this kind of thing, Curm?

 

Seriously, maybe you can explain, from a male POV, from a guy who's been around the block... why it's so hard for guys to believe that women aren't always "sugar-and-spice-and-everything-nice". (????)

 

Some days, it seems to me that men are almost polarized on their outlook regarding women. On the one side, the screaming misogynist, who believes all women are just insensate evil, ready to spring some horrible trap on them... and on the other, the knight-in-shining-armor who thinks we're all just confused little girls who can't be expected to exercise rational control of our emotions or actions.

 

Maybe it's just me ...but sometimes it seems there are damn few guys who see us with the clarity of view they're capable of when observing other men.

 

Is this an aspect of male sexuality?.. or maybe brain function? Does it have to do with early childhood experiences where women are the dominant authority?

 

...and I can only respond on the basis of personal experience.

 

Now remember, I was raised in the 40s and 50s and way back then, we males were taught that women were to be respected, cherished, protected and taken care of. By the time the 60s and early 70s hit, along with feminism, we were in cultural shock.

 

I think it was less that women were the dominant authority than itwas the conditioning to be a gentleman where women were concerned. On the other hand, perhaps not. Most my age were raised by stay-at-home-moms while dad was the bread-winner who patted us on the head when he came home, wished us good night and there was far less personal interaction that there has been with succeeding generations.

 

For me, it took the experience of marriage to and divorce from the ex to make me realize (and I fought against it) that women can be deceitful, unfeeling, unfaithful and downright nasty (as can men, of course). Thereafter, it took a lot of hard work on ME to reach the stage of being realistic without being jaded and totally suspicious. In the process I came to realize that women are simply people too (SURPRISE!) and there's good and bad in them just as there is in men.

 

It's been a rough ride!

[Crestfallen_KH]

If one's behavior has always been honest and above board, then I agree - spying or snooping just to do it, means you are paranoid and have trust issues. The problem lies within you.

 

If one has been untrustworthy, lied, or given you a reason not to believe him/her, then your partner broke the "trust contract" - not you. The problem then lies within your partner.

 

When my STBXH started hiding his cell phone, lying about his OW and minimizing her importance, I started checking his cell phone. It armed me with knowledge that I needed to make my decision. HE broke the "trust contract" not me. When he got offended, it just simply gave me reason to know I was on to something. It helped me figure out things that otherwise I would NEVER have gotten from him, since I could no longer trust him.

 

You are MARRIED. When your MARRIAGE PARTNER starts lying, don't waste one second feeling bad about snooping. Again, she violated your trust, not you. I can't disagree more with anyone who tells you that what you did is not ok.

[Gunny376]

...and I can only respond on the basis of personal experience.

 

Now remember, I was raised in the 40s and 50s and way back then, we males were taught that women were to be respected, cherished, protected and taken care of. By the time the 60s and early 70s hit, along with feminism, we were in cultural shock.

 

I think it was less that women were the dominant authority than itwas the conditioning to be a gentleman where women were concerned. On the other hand, perhaps not. Most my age were raised by stay-at-home-moms while dad was the bread-winner who patted us on the head when he came home, wished us good night and there was far less personal interaction that there has been with succeeding generations.

 

For me, it took the experience of marriage to and divorce from the ex to make me realize (and I fought against it) that women can be deceitful, unfeeling, unfaithful and downright nasty (as can men, of course). Thereafter, it took a lot of hard work on ME to reach the stage of being realistic without being jaded and totally suspicious. In the process I came to realize that women are simply people too (SURPRISE!) and there's good and bad in them just as there is in men.

 

It's been a rough ride!

 

Yes I agree with you Curmudgeon, I was born and raised on the cusp of the "Baby Boomers" and was raise and taught as the same values and principles as you.

 

Indeed, I was raised by my grandparents who got married in 1922, and raised a family through the Great Depression, and sent four sons off to war, (3 during WWII and one during Korea).

 

And so to say that views about women and marriage were more than a little out skew with the modern perception of how marriage is suppose to work?

 

But, all that's transpied since the femininist movement ~ has been social and cultural changes in percepetion ~ and to many perception is reality.

 

But the last sixty years of re-landscaping the culurual and societial lay of the land ~ doesn't un-do the tens of thousands of years (if not more) that prececeded it.

 

There are differences in men and women ~ women have thousands more ofactary cells than men in their nose, which is the reason they're so attracted to and offended ordors. They're cicrulatory system is more developed and extensive than mens ~ which is the reason they're so suspectibale to variations in temperature ~ and we men have to suffer during the winter months ~ or to quote Jeff Foxworthy ~ "Like slepping with a Butterball turkey!"

 

But as RB has eluded to the connnection between the right and left lobes of the brain is 30 to 40 greater in women than in men.

 

Women are "multi-taskers" in their thinking ~ while men tend to be more "mono-thinkers" which given the evolution of men and women's traditional roles makes perfect sense.

 

Men has to become "problem solvers" while women had to keep the fires buring, looking after one or more chldren, while doing a multiple number of task while the men were off hunting for food.

 

Hunting requires single purpose ~ single thinking ~ single focus.

 

To this day ~ as in eons past ~ men come home and need some "fire-gazing" time. When you've got a bunch of men gathered around a fire, the don't do a great amount of talking. They just gaze into the fire. This is stress releif to men.

 

The modern day equivalent? Television and channel surfing. When men channel surf? They're not interested in what's on TV, they're interest in what else is on tv. They're "hunting" (Besides? You just never know when "Cool Hand Luke" or "Smokey and the Bandit" might be on! )

 

It use to be that the rate of infedility among women was less than 20%, but these days its as high as 40% or more in Western society. Why? Women's Rights and Liberation, the Pill, abortion, access to self dependency, education, jobs, equal opportunity, "no-fault" divorce, etc.

 

And to be honest? I'm all for women being treated with diginity, respect, equal/human rights, and as people ~ as human beings!

 

But as the columnist Walter Williams said when it comes to the Civil Rights movement ~ and the same can be said for the Women's Rights movement ~ enough already! You WON! (And yea! We can sit around alnight and say ~ "Yea but!" Its not a perfect world and its never going to be!)

 

____________________________________________

 

As far as the snooping and spying goes, she gave you probable cause! That's enough!

 

_____________________________________________

 

As far as "external factors" go? Waaaaaaa! She could cry me a river! Life's hard and a struggle no matter who you are! If you've been blessed enough to have been born in a Western Country ~ well you've been blessed! Better to have been born the poorest of the poor in a Western nation than in a Third World nation. Most people have absolutely no freaking clue as to what the word poor is nor means.

 

People in Africa that receive donated clothes from the U.S. call them "dead-people's clothes! Its beyond their comprehension that one person own so many clothes.

 

You've got your health?

 

You've got your strength?

 

You've got your freedom?

 

You're good to go! You're laying down nothing but "Spades" and "Royal Flushes!" Its all good!

[chall24503]

I admire you for considering her emotionaly state. I too have been through ups and downs with my child hood and my H decided to end the marriage. However, during my emotionaly break I was not weak enough to seek another outside the marriage. I remain faithful even while seperated, however I cant say the same for my H. Being there for her is commendable. But if she is seeking other fullfillment outside the marriage, even during an emotinal state, it is not fair to you. Keep your head up high and do what your heart tells you. Sometimes our lack of communication can cause plenty damage. If you have something to say, say it. Sometimes it is a little to late....

[Ladyjane14]

Thanks Gunny and Curm... and again, Reboot.

... for your enlightening answers to my question. It makes sense that this is a combination of factors, both male "hard-wiring" and environmental training.

 

I don't want to take Base's thread off-topic, but I think he needs to maybe mull this question over just a little bit... Would he have excused such a hurtful betrayal from another male if presented with such flimsy reasoning?

 

I'm not saying that forgiveness and reconciliation aren't worthwhile goals... they most certainly are. But he needs to know specifically WHAT he's forgiving, if he indeed chooses to go that route. Identifying and treating the TRUE reason why his WW cheats is the only way to break the cycle she's in. Without that, there's no way to prevent this episode from repeating itself. Buying into a bogus excuse puts Base at heavy risk for continued emotional pain. He needs to look at this thing analytically.

 

 

I'd still like to know if he feels he deserves this treatment based on his prior history with her.(????) Because if you've got unresolved feelings about that, Base... NOW is the time to figure those feelings out.

[bestadvisor]

Are you sure it was just an EA? People don't plan to run away when they have only an EA, it's usually much more than that. What makes you think that she never crossed the line to a PA?