Why does Satan work for God?

[Moai]

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?channel_id=1&story_id=15529

 

 

Thanks for the link. I would note that Doctors Without Borders, one of the charities that was given a portion of the money raised is not a religious charity.

[Moose]

Also, why do I need to know which Hebrew word was used in order to get past this contradiction? If all I have is a Bible in English, I'll never know what you post above, right?

Yes, that's true. But honestly, how many believers do you think are actually out hunting for contradictions? And when they do find them, I would like to think they would seek councel for clarity.

There is no evidence that Genesis is true. There are mountains of it for the current scientific model. I am not an archaeologist, but I do read what they write.

No evidence? That's a matter of opinion.

Considering that it is impossible to build a tower to Heaven, as we can't see it with any telescope yet devised, you'd think that god would know that and wouldn't waste his time thwarting such an effort.

First of all, they weren't trying to build a tower that reached Heaven.....they wanted one that reached the, "heavens" or sky.....

 

Secondly, God didn't cause them to stop because it was, "possible" for them to do so, He did so because He knew the dangerous potential of their unified pride......

so ask yourself if god's plan worked in this instance.

I keep coming up with a, "of course it worked"......when I ask myself. But of course, I'm a little biased. I also know that since I can't see the whole picture it would be pre-mature to assume otherwise.

Lastly, considering that the space program was successful in sending men to the moon after the confusion of language and that god did not intervene to stop it is also telling.

LOL.....I hardly doubt that if we stuck 7 crew members in the Shuttle, all speaking a different language and not able to understand each other would even get off the ground......your example is a poor one.

and again there is no evidence to support Hebrew enslavement in Israel. Zero.

It's in the Bible. That's enough evidence for me.....

We have a great deal of information about Egypt, their history, and even their daily lives and yet they do not mention Hebrews at all.

BUT, as you've stated several times before.....we're constantly learning more and more......I believe that ultimately you'll have your tangible, "evidence".......but then it may not be in our lifetime.....

The explanation you have provided was discredited about 1400 years ago. Care to try again?

Nope. What I said is what it is. There's no, "trying again" when it's truth.

If the authors of the Bible were inspired, and the Bible is the Word of God, why does anything have to be explained like this in the first place?

Different time, different location, different culture, different thought processes existed when the Bible was written......oh.....and also for intellects that like to argue about religion(s).

[Moai]

Yes, that's true. But honestly, how many believers do you think are actually out hunting for contradictions? And when they do find them, I would like to think they would seek councel for clarity.

 

From whom? Do the pygmies in the Congo have access to the sum of theological thought? I doubt it.

 

No evidence? That's a matter of opinion.

 

No, it isn't. Saying so is like saying that I have evidence that I am President of the United States.

 

First of all, they weren't trying to build a tower that reached Heaven.....they wanted one that reached the, "heavens" or sky.....

 

Same difference. And we have reached far beyond that, have we not?

 

Secondly, God didn't cause them to stop because it was, "possible" for them to do so, He did so because He knew the dangerous potential of their unified pride......

 

Well, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do so, so god could have just done nothing and achieved the same result.

 

Not only that, but do we, as Americans, have unified pride in reaching the Moon--as yet, we are the only country to have done so. We have also launched probes that have left our Solar System. Certainly, that is far beyond anything Nimrod could have accomplished?

 

I keep coming up with a, "of course it worked"......when I ask myself. But of course, I'm a little biased. I also know that since I can't see the whole picture it would be pre-mature to assume otherwise.

 

Well, from the picture I can see it didn't work. I would think that something of this magnitude would be self-evident, not shrouded in mystery. OR nonsense, as the case may be.

 

LOL.....I hardly doubt that if we stuck 7 crew members in the Shuttle, all speaking a different language and not able to understand each other would even get off the ground......your example is a poor one.

 

No, and you make my point for me right there. Why didn't god confuse the language of everyone building the Saturn V rocket? That is the point. The fact that everyone involved, all the way up to the pilots of the space shuttle speak the same language is exactly the point.

 

If god were to be consistent, every rocket would blow up without explanation, languages would be confused almost daily, ad we would not have supersonic aircraft. Why different rules for Nimrod and seperate rules for us?

 

Do you not also see how confusing language works against everyone everywhere understanding and accepting the "Good News?"

 

It's in the Bible. That's enough evidence for me.....

 

And so are witches. And unicorns. Do you believe in those things, too?

 

BUT, as you've stated several times before.....we're constantly learning more and more......

 

Yep, and as we do god gets smaller and smaller.

 

I believe that ultimately you'll have your tangible, "evidence".......but then it may not be in our lifetime.....

 

Which raises another problem. Why do the people living long after I am dead get the benefit of tangible proof, but I (and everyone else) does not?

 

Nope. What I said is what it is. There's no, "trying again" when it's truth.

 

But it is demonstrably NOT true. Mary is not mentioned, and even looking at the historiocity of the Bible it doesn't wash. Moreover, one of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time admits that it is an erroneous explanatino, and did so 1600 years ago, roughly.

 

I am reminded of magnet therapy. Benjamin Franklin proved such to be hogwash, and yet you can buy Dr. Scholl's inserts with magnets, even now.

 

Different time, different location, different culture, different thought processes existed when the Bible was written......oh.....and also for intellects that like to argue about religion(s).

 

But that's just it. Why should I pay attention to another culture that is shrouded in confusion when my eternal soul is at stake? Why should I listen to what the Hebrews say, or the early Christians? My people worshiped Odin and Thor. So, since that makes more sense given my culture and ancestry, shouldn't I give their myths more creedence?

 

I love the idea of dying in battle giving you a free pass to Valhalla. And, since making one feel good is an argument used by believers as a reason to believe, shouldn't I just dive into ancient Norse religion and not look back?

[Moose]

From whom? Do the pygmies in the Congo have access to the sum of theological thought? I doubt it.

Maybe not, but they do have common sense.

No, it isn't. Saying so is like saying that I have evidence that I am President of the United States.

For all I know, you could be....as I don't have any evidence that you are not.

 

The mountain(s) of evidence you claim archeologists and scientists to have is ever changing. God is constant, and contrary to your belief, (and others), very logical.

Same difference. And we have reached far beyond that, have we not?

Of course we have, and I've also read about a nanotube elevator possibly being contructed to link to the ISS.

 

That would be one awesome ride!

Well, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do so, so god could have just done nothing and achieved the same result.

On the contrary, God didn't find anything wrong with their design plans, and even deduced that they could achieve virtually ANYTHING being unified as one. (Genesis 11:6)

 

The same is true today. You'll hopefully get to see this occuring again in fact. Once the, "one world government", the euro, and Anti-Christ is in place....well....hold on to the seat of your pants because this time, there are only one of two places God will scatter us about.....

Not only that, but do we, as Americans, have unified pride in reaching the Moon--as yet, we are the only country to have done so. We have also launched probes that have left our Solar System. Certainly, that is far beyond anything Nimrod could have accomplished?

There is no refuting that. This doesn't by any stretch of the imagination prove anything to me....?

 

Read Genesis 11:6 again.....God clearly said as a unified people, there would be NOTHING they coudn't accomplish. We would already be flying around in starships visiting other galaxies by now......

 

Finally, there was only one (1) period in time where all, (every single one), men, women and children who inhabited the Earth spoke the same language and had the same goal all at once.

 

THAT will never happen again which is just more evidence, (to me anyway) that God exists.

Well, from the picture I can see it didn't work. I would think that something of this magnitude would be self-evident, not shrouded in mystery. OR nonsense, as the case may be.

And you're opinion is respected.

 

Allow me explain it to you differently......personal experience....but this time, "god" didn't thwart me in the end.....lol....

 

:mad:I'm a HUGE enemy of Utility Companies.

 

Depending on where you live, you usually don't have a choice where you get your utilities from. AND, they can raise and lower the pricing whenever they feel it's, "neccessary". Not to mention how damaging their plants are to our enviroment.

 

SO.....

 

A couple of years ago, UPS dropped off several boxes at the office containing extremely powerful magnets, and magnet wire, which I brought home along with some scrap metal, a few planks of wood, soldering wire, and almost a ton, (LITERALLY) of square tubing and concrete.

 

Nobody in my family had a clue what in the world I was up. But I had the whole picture in my mind, (and on my computer), of what I wanted to accomplish.

 

After several months of cutting, machining, welding, digging, pouring......the neighbors gawking, the family and friends calling me insane.....I have a DIY wind generator atop a 45' tilt-able tower that powers my entire shop.

 

What do you think my utility company had to say about that? Let's just say that their reaction flared a whole lot of embarrassing attention on the subject, and since I live in a no P&Z county, they couldn't do anything about it except BUY what I DON'T use........

 

God played, "God" in the instance of Babel, and He's allowed to do so....He's God.

No, and you make my point for me right there. Why didn't god confuse the language of everyone building the Saturn V rocket? That is the point. The fact that everyone involved, all the way up to the pilots of the space shuttle speak the same language is exactly the point.

Yes....IT IS! Ah....the Saturn V......still a champ in today's day and age.....but just imagine if the entire world spoke the same language and directed all efforts into building a better space craft......??

If god were to be consistent, every rocket would blow up without explanation, languages would be confused almost daily, ad we would not have supersonic aircraft. Why different rules for Nimrod and seperate rules for us?

Again, it was only in Nimrod's age did all of humanity speak one language......and where totally unified.

Do you not also see how confusing language works against everyone everywhere understanding and accepting the "Good News?"

Of course I do. This is precisely why we contribute to world wide missionaries.

And so are witches. And unicorns. Do you believe in those things, too?

Witches....yes....unicorns....no. Where in Scripture do you see unicorns?

Yep, and as we do god gets smaller and smaller.

Since the opposite is true for me, your statement is simply a matter of opinion.

Which raises another problem. Why do the people living long after I am dead get the benefit of tangible proof, but I (and everyone else) does not?

It's not a problem for you. If I remember correctly, you've claimed that you're saved. Just because you don't, "believe" anymore doesn't mean you're, "un-born". Just as your physical birth can't be undone, same goes for you spiritual birth.

 

Everyone is going to spend eternity in one of two, "places"....when you're die, you won't need tangible evidence.....believe me.

 

I'll finish responding here in a minute....gotta take a break and look something up for you in regards to, "Heli".....

[shadowofman]

For all I know, you could be....as I don't have any evidence that you are not.

 

The mountain(s) of evidence you claim archeologists and scientists to have is ever changing. God is constant, and contrary to your belief, (and others), very logical.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

First of all Moose, you do have evidence that Dubya is the president, not Moai. Second, our mountains of evidence is never changing, only growing larger. Some evidence is occationally reconcidered or scraped, but the same can be said for theological thought, as science corrects our worldview.

 

Just like Christianity has been doing for it's entire 2000 years, you Moose, are changing the intended meaning of the stories to fit your modern rational worldview. You know that there is no heaven in space. You know because space is a vacuum with planets and stars. But the people that wrote the bible, didn't know any of this. They really thought that people could build a literal tower to a literal heaven.

Similarly, the people of Palestine 2,000 years ago, changed the intended meaning of the earlier story of the sun and the seasons to fit their contemporary worldviews. Thus the story changes over time.

[Moose]

First of all Moose, you do have evidence that Dubya is the president, not Moai.

Who's to say that Dubya isn't posing as Moai? I have nothing to prove otherwise so it could be either/or. That was the point if you'd read it again instead going off half cocked....

Some evidence is occationally reconcidered or scraped, but the same can be said for theological thought, as science corrects our worldview. Just like Christianity has been doing for it's entire 2000 years, you Moose, are changing the intended meaning of the stories to fit your modern rational worldview.

What in the world are you talking about? I haven't changed anything.....just because I know how to read Scripture in it's context doesn't mean I'm changing it's intended meaning. I just understand it a lot better than you. That's all.

You know because space is a vacuum with planets and stars. But the people that wrote the bible, didn't know any of this. They really thought that people could build a literal tower to a literal heaven.

People did not think they could build a literal tower to a literal heaven in that age, they weren't STUPID! AND, the Scriptures doesn't say they were building a tower to literal heaven. Study it, and you'd find that out.

 

It just urgs me to no end when someone reads scripture and runs with it without taking the time to look it up, read commentaries on it, dissect it, put it back together, and pray about it.....

Similarly, the people of Palestine 2,000 years ago, changed the intended meaning of the earlier story of the sun and the seasons to fit their contemporary worldviews. Thus the story changes over time.

What? What are you talking about here?

[Enema]

For those interested, I've copied the relevant passage:

 

Genesis 11

 

The Tower of Babel

 

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

 

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

 

 

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

 

 

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

 

Admittedly, it doesn't read like they think they're going to build a literal tower to "heaven".

 

Certainly raises a few other interesting problems though.

[Moose]

Certainly raises a few other interesting problems though.

Care to expand?

[Enema]

Care to expand?

 

Well, the two most obvious:

 

1) God scattered them and confused the language because "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them".

- Why should this be a reason for God to scatter / confuse them? Does he feel threatened?

 

2) If God really needed to scatter / confuse this group of people speaking the same language... why not us today?

- Their population was only a fraction of ours today, we have much larger groups of people all speaking the same language... but no scattering / confusion.

 

Would be interested to read your interpretation.

[EnigmaXOXO]

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

 

So that’s why I failed sixth grade Spanish class? God hast smite me!

 

((Better go hide the ladders. ))

 

...And yes, I already know that one's gonna send me to Hell in FIVE different religions. :o

[Moose]

1) God scattered them and confused the language because "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them".

- Why should this be a reason for God to scatter / confuse them? Does he feel threatened?

Of course not. He's just looking out for us is all. Consider this, if there wasn't anything that you couldn't do.....how dreadfully boring would you be eventually? How vane, and proud would you become? Would you even need God at that point, or desire a relationship with Him? (not that you do now.....) How about your relationship(s) with other people? How would they look at you then? Treat you? Would they want to be with someone so vane and self-righteous? So now....you're alone, you don't need anybody, and nobody wants anything to do with you.....

2) If God really needed to scatter / confuse this group of people speaking the same language... why not us today?

- Their population was only a fraction of ours today, we have much larger groups of people all speaking the same language... but no scattering / confusion.

AH....but we are on a much larger scale now. How many languages do you think exists today? How many languages do you think were created after God scattered these few thousand, (maybe slightly more)? What would that ratio of been then, and what would that ratio be today?

 

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/worldlanguages.htm

[Enema]

Of course not. He's just looking out for us is all. Consider this, if there wasn't anything that you couldn't do.....how dreadfully boring would you be eventually? How vane, and proud would you become? Would you even need God at that point, or desire a relationship with Him? (not that you do now.....) How about your relationship(s) with other people? How would they look at you then? Treat you? Would they want to be with someone so vane and self-righteous? So now....you're alone, you don't need anybody, and nobody wants anything to do with you.....

 

I don't agree with the sequence you propose here, but primarily...

 

I simply don't think it's possible that humans could get to a stage where we can "do anything". There's always further we can go, more we can learn, more we can do. If this is true, then the rest of your sequence can't happen.

 

AH....but we are on a much larger scale now. How many languages do you think exists today? How many languages do you think were created after God scattered these few thousand, (maybe slightly more)? What would that ratio of been then, and what would that ratio be today?

 

I may have missed the point you were making here... but, supposedly a few thousand ancient people working together were enough to warrant god needing to scatter / confuse them.

 

Why doesn't he need to scatter / confuse the one billion people that all speak mandarin?

 

Why were the few thousand early people so much more important?

[JamesM]

It is rather simple...God had commanded the people to fill the earth yet here in Genesis 11, they decided to stay together and not scatter. They also created the tower as a means to worship God's Creation and not the Creator. By confusing their languages, those who talked the same stayed together, and the others traveled.

 

Here is an explanation of that chapter/story...

 

http://www.christiananswers.net/godstory/babel1.html

[Moose]

I simply don't think it's possible that humans could get to a stage where we can "do anything".

Of course you wouldn't now....God took care of that remember?

Why were the few thousand early people so much more important?

Humanity is humanity whether 2 humans exist or 2 billion humans exist.

 

Humanity will never be 100% unified again.

[NoIDidn't]

What an interesting and completely off-topic thread.

 

Satan does not work for God. Satan simply respects the one that is more powerful. Like I don't work for the government or local police, but I still follow the laws they make as I can't just do what I want living under their authority.

 

What I don't understand is why non-Christians seem to think that Christians don't have anything to do in this life. Maybe they've met too many of the fire insurance Christians that don't really know what they believe anyway other than that their choice means that they are going to heaven. But that may not be the case, Jesus might still tell them "depart from me, I never knew you".

 

It seems apparent that some posters are hellbent on using anything possible to discredit Christianity by constantly changing the subject. Like, Christianity needs to be proven. But when told other religions can't be proven either, then they go for "but there is no proof of Egypt ever having Hebrew slaves". Its impossible to have a coherent conversation with someone that does this.

[JamesM]

 

It seems apparent that some posters are hellbent on using anything possible to discredit Christianity by constantly changing the subject. Like, Christianity needs to be proven.

 

Its impossible to have a coherent conversation with someone that does this.

 

I agree...it is frustrating. So many times an answer to the thread for a Christian turns into a need to defend the existence of God.

 

Legitimate questions are ignored.

[FleshNBones]

I agree...it is frustrating. So many times an answer to the thread for a Christian turns into a need to defend the existence of God.

 

Legitimate questions are ignored.

Turn it around and have some fun.

 

Try to get the atheists to validate their BLEAK belief system with nothing to offer. Remember, they are human, and they won't base their decisions on pure logic. Consider anyone who makes that claim a liar.

[shadowofman]

It seems apparent that some posters are hellbent on using anything possible to discredit Christianity by constantly changing the subject. Like, Christianity needs to be proven.

Its impossible to have a coherent conversation with someone that does this

You people are funny! I didn't realize that a coherent conversation was desired. Here goes, and to do with the OP, "Why does Satan work for God?"

First, we must agree on the terms of the statement. There is no proof that God or Satan exists.

That is as far as coherent goes whenever we disagree on the terms of the argument. Christians are making the extraordinary claim that magic is real. We are simply asking for some proof. You do after all have the burden of proof when you make a claim.

Try to get the atheists to validate their BLEAK belief system with nothing to offer. Remember, they are human, and they won't base their decisions on pure logic. Consider anyone who makes that claim a liar.

I didn't know that the truth has to have something to offer or it's not worth believing in. I prefer to believe the truth whether it has something to offer or whether it hurts. In fact, you will find that the truth hurts most of the time. Maybe this is the bleakness you refer to. The world isn't fair. The bad don't always get punished. Good people die for no reason, and will never be seen again. It is wishful thinking that you will live forever or that you will be reunited with lost loved ones in the clouds. I base this fact on logic. Things die and they don't come back. They rot!

[Geishawhelk]

Remember, they are human, and they won't base their decisions on pure logic. Consider anyone who makes that claim a liar.

Actually, as Buddhist, everything I adhere to is based on Logic and thorough reflection.

So tell me where in this statement, I am lying....

[shadowofman]

As a buddist, do you believe in a soul? I'm sure there is a ton of illogical beliefs in buddism. Don't know much about it though.

[Geishawhelk]

No, we don't.

 

There are no 'beliefs' in Buddhism. So there is nothing to be 'illogical'.

 

I could tell you more if you want, but that would be your approach and curiosity, not my infringement of your space.

[shadowofman]

I appreciate that.

See Christians, was that so hard.

[disgracian]

1. I think maybe no matter how eloquent or heartfelt we are when speaking of our faith, because there is no linear logic applicable to spirituality, what we share will always be "wishy-washy non-answers." Logic cannot comprehend emotion, and spirituality is more often a case of personal emotion.

I don't know what you mean because Buddhists for one certainly manage to put forth very well thought-out and thorough answers in support of their beliefs, many of which are at least as metaphysical and seemingly far fetched as yours. The problem I think is not that my standards or my criteria are too logical, but that you're not really trying.

2. Your staunch disbelief IS a choice, because you reject any other beliefs that don't equate to what you embrace, so therefore it tends to be an impediment when it comes to talk of spirituality; you are unable to accept that what is, is.

I can't choose on a whim to believe otherwise; I'd have to be convinced. My beliefs (and disbeliefs) are deduced, not chosen.

 

Cheers,

D.

[shadowofman]

I don't know what you mean because Buddhists for one certainly manage to put forth very well thought-out and thorough answers in support of their beliefs, many of which are at least as metaphysical and seemingly far fetched as yours.

Is this true? I assumed it was. The idea of a state of enlightenment, that one could "achieve" is pretty illogical. I just don't know much about Buddism. I could take it as metaphor. Do Buddist's believe in a consciousness that defies death? That's pretty illogical.

[Geishawhelk]

Please forgive me Shadow, if I say this, but it is not intended as destructive criticism.

The states of achievable Enlightenment, and the Consciousness that defies Death are always going to be illogical if, as you admit, you don't know much about it.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

I have had many people come up to me (literally and on forum, figuratively) throwing accusations at me about Buddhist doctrine, and thereby reveal, through inccurate statements and wild accusations, their insufficient research and scant knowledge on the subject.

I am not for one instant suggesting you fall into that category (she added hastily)! Your comments have been most welcome and constructive.

But it is little wonder that some aspects appear illogical, if you have scant information at your fingertips.

Far be it from me to attempt to steer you in any specific direction, but illogical as they may seem to you at present, they might be a little clearer to you, should you wish to investigate.

 

I shall say no more.