Hell hath no fury....

[luvmy2ns]

I called down to their house last night to ask if they'd like their youngest to spend the night with us Friday night to give them some time to talk or whatever. He was appreciative and said they'd like that. He then asked me if his youngest had ever talked about their 'relationship' with my daughters. I said that, honestly, no I don't think so (I've asked my daughters and they said the youngest just said mom and dad used to fight a lot but now neither were together that often). In fact, I said she seldom talked about her parents at all because they were hardly ever home. This girl hangs out at our house a LOT. She's very close to my youngest, but her parents are hardly ever home and when one is, the other never is. We only see them together at social events...otherwise, she comes home, makes her own dinner, often puts herself to bed. We've always kept an eye out on her as have other neighbors as it was apparent that something wasn't kosher over there.

 

He told me that their "arrangement" was that each was free to pursue romantic relationships outside of the marriage just as long as the kids never were exposed to it. Unfortunately, and he admits this, what that "arrangement" forces is that both he and she spend a LOT of time outside of the home with their OM/OW. So much so that the kids are pretty much just left alone to fend for themselves. Basically, since they don't get along as a couple, and since they want to fill their needs with people in a discreet manner, they've chosen to leave the house and just show up for the most basic of parental tasks. He said this was wrong and he wanted to change it. Unfortunately, it took something like "this" (referring to the incident) for them to realize that they were basically pursuing their own needs as a higher calling than their childrens' needs.

 

Long and short, and this is the most judgemental thing I'll say on here likely (well, it's only 8A....maybe not).....it's about freakin' time to hear him say that his kids needs have value over a roll in the hay with his own OW. I was actually starting to feel angry for their girls' sake. She deserves a happy home. Obviously, she's not going to get one. But this "arrangement" only served to pull both parents out of the home more and more frequently, abandoning their responsibilities towards HER just because they CHOSE to pursue affairs in a discreet manner in a vain attempt to keep up a "fake marriage front." They basically put their kids thru hell and all the insecurities that go with never being around all so they could maintain the social illusion that everything was fine. That's bogus. I'd rather the erected a circus tent in the front yard for massive orgies than this mess.

 

The "not again daddy, you promised" comment? I asked him what that meant since he was being so open with me. He said it's because his wife had an affair with another married man several years ago and that man committed suicide when his wife found out about it (sounds like he may have had other issues as well, not entirely blaming the affair). But in the ensuing investigation about his death, her affair with him came to light and she was, temporarily, a suspect and was taken away by police with a warrant for questioning. She was cleared, but it was embarrassing to her and the family and terrifying for their youngest girl who was only 7 at the time.

 

Deception is never the answer. All it does it poisons everything you touch. If the issues in the marriage are so bad that you can't find the strength to deal with them, then just divorce already. There's no reason to hide affairs unless there is something you are ashamed about in the process. So eliminate the shame before you bring it to someone else's door.

 

This hit way too close to home. I try very hard to keep my family inside of this shield, this bubble of protection. Obviously, that's an illusion also. But I hate watching a slow-moving train wreck. And that's exactly what this looks like from my vantage point.

 

THIS is the reason the "arrangement" was crappy, as LJ said. And to try to compare the shame of slavery to the morality involved in a marriage with kids? OMG! That is so far off the mark I can't believe it was said.

 

These people should divorce. Maybe if they BOTH find a partner that suits them, their kids can see what a good relationship means. You know, I've worked in many different capacities of criminal justice since 1986, and I am always surprised when I find myself shocked by the behavior of people. You'd think I'd have seen it all by now.

[White Flower]

THIS is the reason the "arrangement" was crappy, as LJ said. And to try to compare the shame of slavery to the morality involved in a marriage with kids? OMG! That is so far off the mark I can't believe it was said.

 

quote]

 

 

I did not compare the shame of slavery to "the imorality involved in a marriage with kids"; rather, I was empathizing with a couple who started out with good yet faulty intentions who still have to hide their arrangement to those who chose to hide slaves. The rest of society at that time did not see those who hid slaves as moral and righteous citizens.

 

I agree with Dazed, though, that this couple went about it in the wrong manner. I know of a couple who are very successful at their lifestyle and the kids know all about it. No hiding=no shame.

[luvmy2ns]

I did not compare the shame of slavery to "the imorality involved in a marriage with kids"; rather, I was empathizing with a couple who started out with good yet faulty intentions who still have to hide their arrangement to those who chose to hide slaves. The rest of society at that time did not see those who hid slaves as moral and righteous citizens.

 

Good intentions while neglecting your kids does not = good parenting. Stupid, yes, but they weren't degrading, beating, and using their children for sex and free work. THAT is where I found that comparison hideously unequal.

[Cobra_X30]

Yeah, because they really need to feel shunned by EVERYONE right now.

 

These girls are going to be unstable due to the complete and utter buffoonery of thier parents.

 

Dazed has an obligation to his family... to his children to protect them first!

 

By allowing them to spend time with children in this situation he is exposing them to it. While there may be some positive outcomes from this, there is also a huge possibility that there will be negative results.

 

Dont be stupid about this! It's Ok to feel sorry for these kids, but unless you are going to adopt them... you already have a family! At the first sign of problems, you need to be ready to react!

[whichwayisup]

Dont be stupid about this! It's Ok to feel sorry for these kids, but unless you are going to adopt them... you already have a family! At the first sign of problems, you need to be ready to react!

 

Dazed is doing the right thing and it's for those kids. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing. They aren't just neighbours, they're 'friends'. And friends, help eachother out, do what they can during the rough times to make it easier, even if the situation is a bad one, when someone needs help, you can't sit and choose whether or not to help, depending on 'what it is' that's actually going on.

[marlena]

WWIU,

 

Totally in agreement. Good for Dazed and his wife. These are the kind of neighbours and friends that are a godsend.

[Cobra_X30]

Dazed is doing the right thing and it's for those kids. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing. They aren't just neighbours, they're 'friends'. And friends, help eachother out, do what they can during the rough times to make it easier, even if the situation is a bad one, when someone needs help, you can't sit and choose whether or not to help, depending on 'what it is' that's actually going on.

 

Your right in that he is currently handling the situation well.

 

I'm thinking long term! It's not a guarantee, but my money says these neighbor girls are going to begin exhibiting mental issues as time progresses.

 

I wouldnt wait until the kids are smoking crack together to do something.

 

I do not believe in turning a blind eye to who your children are friends with!

[boshemia]

Oh my God! What a mess... I know there are more polyamorous marriages out there than most people think. I see it a lot on Secondlife where a couple is married in real life, but they openly have secondlife marriages... it's so common that people are often shocked that my husband and I are married in both our real lives and our virtual. It's much less complicated that way.

 

I try very hard not to judge another... but the wife seems to enjoy playing with fire. It would be just as easy to have an open relationship with a single man... or at least another couple who is open. Especially after what you say has happened in the past. Instead of learning from it, she is just seeking out more drama?

 

I can see how this would put you in a difficult spot, but don't heed any advice that advocates staying out of it where the children are involved...

 

They need somebody stable in their life right now... they need someone who isn't going to cast them out or hurt them even more and you sound like you have a very kind heart. The parents don't need you involved so much, but the kids do just to give them a little normalcy.

 

The only think I can caution you on is be very careful... I've gotten involved in similar situations trying to help out kids and sometimes the kids bite you in the butt. Kids in the middle of this situation are bound to act out, and they can and will drag your children into it from time to time...

 

Very close supervision is crucial... don't let their family problems become your family problems.

 

And Kudos on your comment about owning our own actions. We all may want to do things, and sometime we all cross the line a bit when we are under pressure.

 

A mature person always manages to exit a situation with their dignity intact...

[Herzen]

When swinging interferes with parenting all bets are off. If the swinging parents are staying together for their child, why bother. Their emotionally and physically abandoned and deceived child is as betrayed as the angry betrayed spouse. The whole thing screams dysfunctionality. Whenever a parent's orgasm is more important than her child it's time to reassess priorities.

 

The cheating wife's affair is incomprehensible after the suicide and arrest in the earlier affair. There are many consenting swinging couples out there. Meet like minded couples on AFF or alt.com. There's no need to destroy more lives and marriages.

 

An affair is an act of aggression against the betrayed spouse(s), the children and anyone else who has the misfortune to reside in Ground Zero. Affairs give pleasure to few, and abject misery to those who love us the most. At bottom, affairs are more than simply anti-social: they're a declaration of war against the family.

[whichwayisup]

I'm thinking long term! It's not a guarantee, but my money says these neighbor girls are going to begin exhibiting mental issues as time progresses.

 

I think the father of those kids would get them into family counselling and I'm sure that if Dazed noticed any freaky behaviour displayed by them or if they copped an attitude, he would not only talk to their dad, but alert his wife and together they'd talk to their own children to not follow the neighbours kids lead, and to make them understand right from wrong. I doubt very much that the neighbours kids are going to be a bad influence here, were not talking drugs, sexual abuse, we're talking about insecurities and saddness that could be displayed by the kids from not having the love and support a mom/dad is supposed to give them.

[marlena]

I agree once again with WWIU,

 

Saying these kids are bound to have serious mental issues or become crack heads is an exaggeration. Not all children whose parents have had an affair wind up in the loony bin or in rehab. My instinct tells me that the parents of these children will keep a close watch on their behavior and do whatever is needed to help see them through this mess that this vindictive BS caused. What about her children? Did she think of her children when she satrted distributing these letters around. Why shouldn't her children become cokeheads too? And Herzen dear, this BS is doing some bad parenting herself. Isn't she putting her husbands orgasms above parenting?

She could have handled this more maturely and in a more difnified manner.

 

And I know Dazed and his wife would know if their children were being negatively influenced by their desire to help these poor children out. I wonder who is going to offer help to the other children when they find out their father was cheating on their mother with a neighbbour.

 

Why this double standard?

[DazedandConfused66]

All,

 

Your warnings are well founded....I'm well aware of how a child's home life drama can create problems in their behaviors and how quickly this can spread to other children. Pack mentality being what it is, a bad influence can become a "village sized" problem rather quickly.

 

However, I've always been one to allow their youngest daughter to be at OUR house, and to allow their older daughters to babysit my son, again at OUR house. I don't allow my daughters much time down there...and truthfully, they don't want to anyways. That house is truly "that house" to both my kids and my neighbors kids. It was why my forcefields went up early on...something just was never quite right down there. The girls seem well adjusted enough...I agree bad kids don't always come out of a bad marriage. I've seen bad kids come out of great marriages and vice versa all the time. The oldest girl is in college now and doing quite well. The second oldest is a senior in HS and also doing well, she works at the local pizza joint and we see her all the time when ordering pizza. Seems like a real sweet girl actually and pretty enough that if she had "other" issues we'd likely have noticed them by now. The youngest seems like a normal girl other than the dysfunction that is her growing up an orphan in her own home.

 

So your warnings are well founded....but I'll gladly open my house to her as a safe refuge and a place to feel welcomed. I monitor my own kids quite closely and will do whatever I need to ensure they learn about making good decisions. You can't always be there to make decisions for your kids, so the best thing you can do as a parent is to ensure they are rational thinkers and teach them HOW to make a good, sound, well informed decision. There's always the "well THAT was dumb" factor at work...lol, I still do that at 41. But I'll keep a very close eye on them regardless of whether the neighbors' daughter is here or elsewhere. The way I look at it...if she IS a bad influence, I'd rather it happen under my watchful eye than a block over where I can't see them.

 

Thanks for caring enough to caution me, however. Always helpful to get other perspectives.

[luvmy2ns]

I agree once again with WWIU,

 

Saying these kids are bound to have serious mental issues or become crack heads is an exaggeration. Not all children whose parents have had an affair wind up in the loony bin or in rehab. My instinct tells me that the parents of these children will keep a close watch on their behavior and do whatever is needed to help see them through this mess that this vindictive BS caused. What about her children? Did she think of her children when she satrted distributing these letters around. Why shouldn't her children become cokeheads too? And Herzen dear, this BS is doing some bad parenting herself. Isn't she putting her husbands orgasms above parenting?

She could have handled this more maturely and in a more difnified manner.

 

And I know Dazed and his wife would know if their children were being negatively influenced by their desire to help these poor children out. I wonder who is going to offer help to the other children when they find out their father was cheating on their mother with a neighbbour.

 

Why this double standard?

 

Your instinct tells you that these people who have been putting their sexual play before their child are suddenly going to become model parents? Doubt it. Not that I think anyone should disallow their child to interact with theirs, but I certainly wouldn't send my child to their home for a playdate.

[marlena]

Well, I don't think they are actually having orgies over there in the presence of their children! Plus, if they are friends of Dazed, they can't be all that bad. And their other childen have turned out oK! So, they must have done something right.

 

And how do you know that that cheating husband of that looney BS doesn't have sex with his mistresses in his own home? If so, his kids are in danger also!! Why should his house be any better?

[luvmy2ns]

Well, I don't think they are actually having orgies over there in the presence of their children! Plus, if they are friends of Dazed, they can't be all that bad. And their other childen have turned out oK! So, they must have done something right.

 

And how do you know that that cheating husband of that looney BS doesn't have sex with his mistresses in his own home? If so, his kids are in danger also!! Why should his house be any better?

 

I didn't say his house. Good gawd. The dad of this pair of parental paragons has already admitted they've left their daughter home alone wayyyy too often in the interest of going out and having their own "playdates" if you will. Or do you not read entire threads so you know whereof you speak?

[luvmy2ns]

I remember this happening in my neighborhood a few years ago. I was new there and I was at working talking about the letter and it turns out the other man's wife was working in the same classroom as me. Boy was I embarrassed. I don't think that the BS was right in what she did. I went out of my way to make sure that my children or the ow children weren't hurt anymore than they had already been by the actions of the adults in their lives. And as a mother I am pissed that someone could do that where children could be exposed.

 

With all of that said, why is she the only adult held responsible for this mess. She is wrong and she reacted out of anger and hate. But she is hurting and not thinking rationally. Her husband and the ow and even ow's husband have decided that their lifestyle is more important than their children also. Her WS and the OW decided that it was o.k. to have sex with neighbors without thought to the children. Neighbors could easily know what it going on and talk around their children, who in turn talk to other kids. I work in a school, you should hear some of the things that these kids talk about, that they have heard from their parents. Even a dog doesn't ***** where it sleeps.

 

Then there is the relationship between the OW and her hubby. Open relationships are fine if you are animal living in a pack. Didn't they consider the consequences of bringing other people into their families life? I must say that I don't feel sorry for the OW, her "mistake" has far reaching repercussions for everyone involved. It wasn't a mistake but a choice to f*ck her life and the life of others. The BS husband should feel like the flaming ******* that he is for bringing this on his family and the family of the OW. His job as their father was to protect them from all harm and potential pain. He had control over this situation and he chose is dick over his kids. And that spineless piece of crap that said, "my wife was supposed to be discreet" WTF, if you don't want to be married, divorce move on!

 

Yes these people are parents. They all need help from a professional. They all suck as parents and these kids deserve better than the 4 piles of steaming horse ***** that these people are. You need a license to hunt, fish, drive, and even to own a business, but everything with genitals and the ability to conceive, can have a child. What a mess.

 

BRAV f'ing O!

[sally4sara]

deleted my post

[White Flower]

Good intentions while neglecting your kids does not = good parenting. Stupid, yes, but they weren't degrading, beating, and using their children for sex and free work. THAT is where I found that comparison hideously unequal.

Once again you are missing the point. This couple felt they had to hide their lifestyle from a society that is not ready for it just as people hid slaves during the Civil War. White people had to hide this action from other white people who were not ready to understand it. If you cannot see the point by now then quit trying. You are reading hideous things into my original statement and I think you have way too much time on your hands.

 

Yes, this couple did not have a clear plan and a lot of people got hurt. Others who practice this lifestyle, and I am not one of them, do have a plan that works, meaning noone gets hurt. If all of society were open to the idea of this plan, this couple and thier family would not be suffering today.

[boshemia]

All,

 

Your warnings are well founded....I'm well aware of how a child's home life drama can create problems in their behaviors and how quickly this can spread to other children. Pack mentality being what it is, a bad influence can become a "village sized" problem rather quickly.

 

However, I've always been one to allow their youngest daughter to be at OUR house, and to allow their older daughters to babysit my son, again at OUR house. I don't allow my daughters much time down there...and truthfully, they don't want to anyways. That house is truly "that house" to both my kids and my neighbors kids. It was why my forcefields went up early on...something just was never quite right down there. The girls seem well adjusted enough...I agree bad kids don't always come out of a bad marriage. I've seen bad kids come out of great marriages and vice versa all the time. The oldest girl is in college now and doing quite well. The second oldest is a senior in HS and also doing well, she works at the local pizza joint and we see her all the time when ordering pizza. Seems like a real sweet girl actually and pretty enough that if she had "other" issues we'd likely have noticed them by now. The youngest seems like a normal girl other than the dysfunction that is her growing up an orphan in her own home.

 

So your warnings are well founded....but I'll gladly open my house to her as a safe refuge and a place to feel welcomed. I monitor my own kids quite closely and will do whatever I need to ensure they learn about making good decisions. You can't always be there to make decisions for your kids, so the best thing you can do as a parent is to ensure they are rational thinkers and teach them HOW to make a good, sound, well informed decision. There's always the "well THAT was dumb" factor at work...lol, I still do that at 41. But I'll keep a very close eye on them regardless of whether the neighbors' daughter is here or elsewhere. The way I look at it...if she IS a bad influence, I'd rather it happen under my watchful eye than a block over where I can't see them.

 

Thanks for caring enough to caution me, however. Always helpful to get other perspectives.

 

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was assuming you weren't protecting your children first. I didn't mean to. Like I said I got burned a few times, and I still feel really stupid for allowing it to happen.

 

I don't know you, but you sound like a good dad who genuinely loves not only your own kids, but other people's kids as well.

 

I say this as the kid who came from one of "those" families. We need more people like you in this world...

 

I turned out okay, but it was one hell of a ride. It wasn't the people who wouldn't allow their kids to play with me that straightened me out... it was people like you. : )

[DazedandConfused66]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was assuming you weren't protecting your children first. I didn't mean to.

 

Nah, didn't take it that way at all. I took yours, and others advice, here to heart as fair warning that you just can't always predict the future.

 

Things are calmer now....their youngest daughter ended up here at a sleepover on Sat night with my daughters and 2 other neighbor girls. At bkfst the following morning while I was flipping flapjacks, the daughter told me that she enjoyed having flapjacks at our place and could I teach her how to cook them. So we all ended up with flapjacks flying everywhere, batter all over us...place was a freakin' mess. Good thing the wife is still on bedrest or she'd have had a cow had she seen the kitchen when we were done. But hey...a man's place is in the kitchen making a mess of things I always say.

 

I worry about her, but I've seen the other two daughters turn out ok. Still...as long as we are here, she'll have a safe place to come play should she need it.

[abeliever]

Wow. WF sometimes you have a way of offending people on so many levels. (Be very careful) (Slavery and your A with MM and talking about sex with MM as if it was normal??? Almost like your bragging) Stop using slavery issue to compare to anything. Its ignorance like this is what causes racism in the first place. JMO take it for what its worth.

 

Anyway wow. I agree to let these children come around to have some "safe place" is fine as long as they don't bring any unhealthy issues into your home. I was a kid who's mother engaged in illegal activities that landed her in jail a lot during my childhood. (stealing and going to jail for it)

 

Its was parents like you who felt bad for me and let me be around their kids (cause despite my mothers actions- I was a good kid) and I got to see what a somewhat normal family is like. It didn't turn me into a criminal, but just the opposite, it put a fire inside me to be successful (which I am) and to strive to put my child first before any man or job. I credit those parents of my friends for showing me there is another way out there that is legal. I could have turned out very different if not for them. I am very grateful for that.

 

So, yes I did have friends who went the other way due to their parents unhealthy relationships, criminal backgrounds etc. But that was "their choice". I too could have went that way but it had the opposite effect on me. So I am grateful to all my friends parents whom I am still friends with today. Their parents too, who see me from time to time and see my successful business and remembers the kid they once saw and are proud of me as if I was their own.

 

So, I too became that house of safe haven for my daughters friends. So keep up the good work, from my personal exp you are providing them a good stable safe place to come to. Who knows what would happen if you stopped? Their parents priorities are not in the right place. Thank goodness you can be there.

 

I appreciate your efforts. I also applaud you.

abeliever

[White Flower]

Wow. WF sometimes you have a way of offending people on so many levels. (Be very careful) (Slavery and your A with MM and talking about sex with MM as if it was normal??? Almost like your bragging) Stop using slavery issue to compare to anything. Its ignorance like this is what causes racism in the first place. JMO take it for what its worth.

 

So, I too became that house of safe haven for my daughters friends. So keep up the good work, from my personal exp you are providing them a good stable safe place to come to. Who knows what would happen if you stopped? Their parents priorities are not in the right place. Thank goodness you can be there.

 

I appreciate your efforts. I also applaud you.

abeliever

Hello Abeliever,

I'm glad you turned out all right:)

 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "talking about sex with MM as if it was normal". I did not talk about sex nor my A with MM so how could I be bragging? I was only suggesting that if this couple is going to practice a lifestyle, they should get involved with an organization that has clear guidelines. It could have prevented their child from becomming hurt as well as themselves. I do not practice this particular lifestyle, but I do know of people who do and do it very successfully.

 

And as for comparing the hiding of a lifestyle to that of hiding slavery, well, I can tell that people read way more into it than I meant. It seems that some people see a word and focus on that word before understanding the concept I was inferring to. I'll come up with a different and simpler metaphor next time.

 

I was referring to the Underground Railroad and how whites had to slowly grow a movement to do the right thing--hide slaves from death, punishment, and horrible living conditions. These whites also feared getting caught because it was not normal at the time. I know you won't equate the right thing in hiding and affair with hiding victims because you don't see the couple in this open marriage as victims. But I do believe there is a slow-growing movement toward open marriage because of the divorce rate currently standing at 50% nationally in the US and 60% in California.

 

I know this will stir all kinds of angry opinions because those posters will feel that their lifestyle will be altered; but it won't. Some states allow for gay marriage yet these new laws didn't go and turn everyone gay like so many feared. So open marriage lifestyles and the clubs that facilitate them will not ruin traditional marriage. In fact, it will make traditional marriage all the more special if you ask me.

[underpants]

I was referring to the Underground Railroad and how whites had to slowly grow a movement to do the right thing--hide slaves from death, punishment, and horrible living conditions. These whites also feared getting caught because it was not normal at the time.

 

With all due respect. I find this analogy very disrespectful. There is no correlation in my opinion. None what so ever.

 

Whatever you have to tell yourself. However, sell crazy someplace else. That just don't jive.

 

Again, no flames. Just telling it like it should be. IMHO.

[White Flower]

With all due respect. I find this analogy very disrespectful. There is no correlation in my opinion. None what so ever.

 

Whatever you have to tell yourself. However, sell crazy someplace else. That just don't jive.

 

Again, no flames. Just telling it like it should be. IMHO.

I already admitted I picked the wrong analogy. And your opinion is not so humble.

[luvmy2ns]

Wow. WF sometimes you have a way of offending people on so many levels. (Be very careful) (Slavery and your A with MM and talking about sex with MM as if it was normal??? Almost like your bragging) Stop using slavery issue to compare to anything. Its ignorance like this is what causes racism in the first place. JMO take it for what its worth.

 

Thanks. Apparently I'm not the only "mindless" person reading her posts. And when it's further explained in a vain attempt to make it sound like a more reasonable analogy, it only sounds worse. Unbelievable how someone can possibly attempt a correlation between a group of people having to hide to do the right thing vs. a woman having to hide to be able to screw a married man.