NC without NC

[justice]

If you truly want things to work out with your marriage, then you do need to uphold the NC. A letter of no contact to the OW, stating your decision to stay with your wife and signed by you needs to be sent to your OW. She needs to know you are serious about hands off and you need to reinforce it by keeping your part of the bargain. If you don't take action regarding the NC then it is all just a huge lie. Does your wife know? You need to think about your wife when you see the OW, not as a comparision, but as in thinking of what could happen if you don't stop betraying her. Think of what pain and humiliation this could bring for her. Keep your heart and your hands away from the OW and firmly on your wife and your marriage if you really and truly want things to work out. If not, please have the good grace to tell your wife so she can find someone who will love her and treat her with respect, like you couldn't.

[LifesontheUp]

I see your point LOTU..

 

Maybe thats something we should talk about together; maybe through a councelor or something.

 

Yes I think that would be good

 

I have a feeling that your wife has not been happy in the marriage either. You are likely going to find areas where you have been lacking too. Counselling should help you work through it all, including why you betrayed your wife.

[OpenBook]

No one.. I expressed a 'What if'. Have you read the last post as a snap shot and based all your argument on that or the whole thread? I had hoped that I had expressed myself as taking ownership of the problem and not 'deferring' blame. All I have done is question myself and the 'Why's?' as to what I did. The last email was a counter question. Like a devils advocate sort of thing.

 

OK, then consider my challenge to you as a counter to your counterargument... kinda like, the devil's devils advocate. WHAT IF it's not your call to judge who is 100% whole and who is not??

 

The OW is not a concideration for far more reasons than I want to express here. This is down to me and my W and how we can fix things for a loving future life together. I'm in 'mend it' mode not should I just 'leave mode'... I'm trying to find the reasons behind what I did.

 

Well, you're the one comparing your W with your OW. (The OW is self-confident; the W is not.) I translated that into you thinking that that was the reason why you were attracted to the OW - because she had what you wanted (confidence) that your W was lacking.

[justice]

If you truly want things to work out with your marriage, then you do need to uphold the NC. A letter of no contact to the OW, stating your decision to stay with your wife and signed by you needs to be sent to your OW. She needs to know you are serious about hands off and you need to reinforce it by keeping your part of the bargain. If you don't take action regarding the NC then it is all just a huge lie. Does your wife know? You need to think about your wife when you see the OW, not as a comparision, but as in thinking of what could happen if you don't stop betraying her. Think of what pain and humiliation this could bring for her. Keep your heart and your hands away from the OW and firmly on your wife and your marriage if you really and truly want things to work out. If not, please have the good grace to tell your wife so she can find someone who will love her and treat her with respect, like you couldn't.

 

Sorry Triage, I just haven't had enough coffee this morning and missed the bit of where you had a dday.

If you truly want to save your marriage, you will stop all contact with the OW at once. You need to become a complete bastard toward her and when she emails you, either ignore and block her emails or send a one liner back to her that simply says, NO MORE CONTACT EVER. The OW doesn't sound like she's respecting your wishes at all. That is what happened in my marriage. Unfortunately it was a little too late, we are now divorced, do you want that to happen to you? You have to be stronger even if it makes you an assh____ toward the OW. Everytime you think about contact with the OW or she corners you, think of the hurt on your wife's face when she found out. Felt really bad didn't it? Also you need to really reassure your wife right now, bolster her lack of confidence and let her know you really love her and not the OW. There is no way to sugar coat any of this. You made the concious decision to cheat, now you must own up to that and make the concious effort to rebuild what you broke down. I wish you luck. I hope what happened to my Marriage doesn't happen to yours.

[child_of_isis]

Maybe she didn't kick you out because she lacks confidence, or that she needs you.

 

Maybe she didn't kick you out because she loves you and believes in you.

 

That being said...you seem to think these qualities are a negative and a weakness....therefore you don't allow yourself to have them.

 

So, breathe that in for a moment. Triarge doesn't love nor believe in himself because he considers it a weakness to do so. And considers those who do believe in him and love him...as being inferior....or defective. (ouch)

 

Or maybe you expect your wife to punish you for what you have done (I need a good kicking out) but she refuses.

 

Or maybe you want W to kick you out because you want to be with OW but don't have the balls to end the M. Again, you want her to do the dirty work. She refuses.

 

 

 

As crazy as it sounds, I actually wish she'd kicked me out on D-day because it would have given me a huge amount of respect for her if she had. I needed a good kicking out.

 

I tried telling her this (apart from the kicking out bit) a while back and she knows she lacks confidence. The question is, how do I get her to find it for herself? Councelling? Surely you need to respect your partner in any relationship. How can you respect your partner if they dont respect themselves?

 

[Ladyjane14]

 

My W lacks confidence. She always has since long before my A. I think she's beautifull but she doesnt carry that same opinion of herself. She's often said that she wonders why I picked her. I do try and boost her confidence (maybe I dont enough) but I want it to come from her and not be spoon fed from me....

 

...The question is, how do I get her to find it for herself? Councelling? Surely you need to respect your partner in any relationship. How can you respect your partner if they dont respect themselves?

 

To be honest, the "void" you've described earlier leads me to think it's probably you who's feeling a loss in the matter of individuality and accomplishment. But I don't know you or your wife, and even if there IS some internal work you need to be doing... it doesn't mean she hasn't got some of her own to do as well. IOW, you could both need some energy directed back toward your inner selves.

 

You know, it's okay to live a small life, and take your joy from small accomplishments. A person can get as much satisfaction from tending their own well-kept garden as from successful corporate raiding. It all just depends on what's important to you. Fame and fortune isn't always the goal.

 

So... yeah, I think it's important for you to direct your energy into all three entities, but NOT to set goals for your partner. We each find our completion, our joy, our 'adrenaline rush' in different things.

 

At the core, your wife's initial lack of confidence must be found through her own methods, and for your part, you would help her by supporting her emotionally and reassuring her of your devotion... same as you would want for yourself.

 

I do think this is something for you two to discuss together though.. to set some goals for the 'couple entity' and share your individual ones with one another. You wouldn't want to introduce a sense of pressure of course, but visualizing your dreams together could be an important step toward recovery. That said... the priority needs to be in exorcising the OW from your daily life.

 

I doubt your bride will ever be fully reassured until that's done. You have to remember that you are in first person observation of your own daily events and interactions, but your wife only has your word to go on. And unfortunately, you've lied to her in the past.

 

For the betrayed spouse, it takes a 'leap of faith' every single day in order to keep believing. When there is still contact between the affair partners, this becomes exhausting after awhile. It drains energy reserves from the relationship as your partner spends countless hours arguing back with her "stinking thinker"... the one who tells her she's a fool to trust you and that you're just going to hurt her again. There's a battle going on, no less than the battle you've experienced yourself on another front.

 

If you look at these deficits in your wife's self confidence as you would the layers of an onion, I think what you'll find is that the damage from the affair has to be peeled off first. She's got to believe in your devotion, she's got to know it right down to her toes, and she can't keep fighting to hold onto it every day of her life. It'll wear her out.

 

She needs your reassurance, because weirdly enough when it comes to infidelity... it's the one who inflicts the pain who has the best ability to offer comfort. NC with the former lover and TLC for the wounded spouse is your best bet on that front.

[child_of_isis]

Truthfully, I don't think it can be fixed.

 

The OP is not taking responsibility for his actions. This is totally a false R.

 

When he says "I'm trying to find the reasons behind what I did"...what is he really saying?

 

That compelling forces beyond his control dictated his behavior.

[Triarge]

Thanks for your posts guys..

 

This will be my last post on this thread. I may come back and give you an update in a month or so if anything new transpires but for now I need to contemplate on everything.

 

I apologise if some of my comments and thoughts have upset or antagonised people. I appreciate how hard it must be for some of you to hear from a WS on these forums. I can, of course, only imagine what it must be like. I'll spare you any more of my inner ramblings

 

Thanks LadyJane14 for all your help and advice. I wish I knew something more about your own story; maybe you could post a link sometime . Please write a book! So much wisdom is wasted otherwise.

 

Also WWIU, smartgirl, WhiteFlower, LOTU and all the rest who have given advice and input. Thanks!

[Ladyjane14]

Thanks for your posts guys..

 

This will be my last post on this thread. I may come back and give you an update in a month or so if anything new transpires but for now I need to contemplate on everything.

 

I apologise if some of my comments and thoughts have upset or antagonised people. I appreciate how hard it must be for some of you to hear from a WS on these forums. I can, of course, only imagine what it must be like. I'll spare you any more of my inner ramblings

 

Thanks LadyJane14 for all your help and advice. I wish I knew something more about your own story; maybe you could post a link sometime . Please write a book! So much wisdom is wasted otherwise.

 

Also WWIU, smartgirl, WhiteFlower, LOTU and all the rest who have given advice and input. Thanks!

 

Triarge... please don't leave the forum due to negative commentary. It's not the BS who's in a position to offer the most insight to the WS. It's guys like you who've 'been there and done that' or are still figuring it out. It's just too easy to take what you need and leave the rest. And you know, sharing conversation with others who are in your sitch can be really cathartic.

 

As to your other question, White Flower just asked me the same thing on your other thread. I left a link there, but I don't really have a thread of my own. Thanks for the compliment though. I'm honored.

[Owl]

Triarge-

 

Here's the straight up deal. This isn't rocket science...I used to be a rocket scientist...I know rocket science...this isn't it.

 

You're confused about what you're feeling for your wife because you're still in contact with OW. PERIOD. No questions.

 

Your judgement, your thoughts, they're all distorted while you're still 'seeing' her. Doesn't matter on the circumstances. The truth of the matter is, you're letting "her" dominate your thoughts...even when you come here for advice.

 

And the reason is...she's still in your life. She's still there at work, every day.

 

You want to get this sorted out????

 

 

REALLY???

 

 

Then change jobs...NOW. Work it out, however you've got to.

 

Quit...today.

 

Go home, tell your wife why you did.

 

And work out your game plan for getting a new job and getting your life and your marriage back on track.

 

This is SIMPLE. It's not easy...but its SIMPLE. Not a lot of moving parts, no need to work through the thermodynamic changes of the engine as it peaks out its thrust...

 

You KNOW what you have to do. What you NEED to do right now is quit equivocating about it, hoist 'em up...and make things happen.

 

As someone else said..."MAN UP!". Then STEP UP, and do what you have to do.

 

 

'nuff said.

[abeliever]

Triarge: COS is right (IMO) it had nothing to do with her - A's are about the cheater. I thought all of us here have been thru this time and time again? If you read threads of OW/OM forum and this one. That comes out quite frequently. It starts out the H/W is bad at this and that or they nag, etc. But when the A ends for whatever reason the "cheater" realizes that their SO really isn't what they percieved them to be. At least in what I read. And from my own H A's.

 

I am not throwing you under the bus (so to speak) but realize that "most" men want someone that "needs" them. You are one in a very few that has said you didn't care for it. I am confident woman and know who I am but my H said I didn't "need" him his OW's did! I would want my SO to "want" me vs "needing me" IMO. But everyone is different.

 

Don't make this about her. You know in your heart that if she wasn't what you wanted you my friend had a "choice" to end the M first then pursue anyone you like. Instead she was cheated out of the RESPECT that you owed her. I hope you will find that RESPECT for yourself and do what is right for her also. Either end your M or work on it 150% until SHE feels better about you and your M.

 

Just a few cents worth.

abeliever

[Tomcat33]

'Poking' aside , with the OW things felt on a more 'equal' footing. She was confident and could emotionally/intellectually hold her own. I like confidence in a woman. Dont get me wrong. I dont want my wife to be anything like 'her'. I would like her to have confidence in herself though. I want my wife to be the woman she is and actually like who she is. I want her to be self contained and 'want' me but not neccasarily 'need' me.

 

As crazy as it sounds, I actually wish she'd kicked me out on D-day because it would have given me a huge amount of respect for her if she had. I needed a good kicking out.

 

.

 

This is the million dollar statement, I have yet to see a cheater admit to this I think you are the first to openly admit this or recognize you feel this that I have seen here. I can totally see where you are coming from with this statement which is why I am a huge fan of putting my foot down when it comes to these situations, 0 tollerance denotes self confidence it denotes lack of fear and more importantly respect for the self. I honestly think that nothing jacks up that interest level quicker than seeing that you are losing the person you just betrayed. Coming from someone who was cheated on during her engagement and ended things with him abruptly when she found out, and having the man years later still beg for forgiveness and to give him another chance, I can tell you it sends a very clear message that ups the interest level by 100000.

 

Also from the now most recent position of being the OW and also putting my foot down when I found out my seperated man couldn't decide to divorce and I walked away and put my foot down that we were done for good, he went back to his W and even after D-day his W begged him to move back in with her and is terrfied of losing him again. I can tell you 8months post breakup the man does not respect his W and he yearns for me, I want nothing more to do with him but he yearns for me, not her and thereofre will not recover from the affair or the marriage.

 

This concept is one that not many people understand, but the interest levels are hightened or even awoken when that fear of loss kicks in. Why? because it is that very same fear of loss and fear of the unknown that made us fall in love with another human being. such a simple concept that many couples throwing thousands of dollars on councelling to recover from an Affair yet will never achieve. The brain of the cheater is fixated on what he can't have therefore the recovery of the marriage is next to impossible. If BSs understood this and took it onboard they would have a lot more to gain.

 

but to each their own some people would rather have a half marriage than nothing at all.

[smartgirl]

Triarge, I hope you won't drop off though I know this can be fatiguing.

 

I just want to offer some thoughts on self esteem from a BS. I don't believe people either have it or don't. I think it ebbs and flows in all of us based on what is going on in our lives at the time and our relative abilities to handle those things.

 

Your wife may in fact have more self esteem and self confidence than is apparent at the moment. Does it take more self confidence to kick your WS out and throw away all you have built or is it more self confident to think you have the ability to forgive and rebuild a troubled marriage? In the eye of the beholder I think. I can certainly tell you it takes a lot of courage to try and forgive and rebuild. Many times I think it would have been emotionally easier to cut and run. I'm just not wired that way -- I'm not a quitter, and maybe your wife isn't either.

 

If she had no self confidence, she might have assumed she could never compete with OW and didn't want to try. She seems capable of believing that you would rather be with her. That being said, she has absolutely taken a full body blow to her confidence that you view her in the special way a wife hopes to be viewed by her H. That is important to any wife and you have sent a message to her via your A and subsequent actions that you have doubts about your feelings. It will be hard for her to regain the confidence that you hold her in high regard again without your help.

 

I believed that my H viewed me as more special than any other woman, else why would he still be with me after 30+ years? His A and feelings for OW shattered that. I want to make a clear distinction -- it didn't shatter my sense of self confidence in myself and in the kind of person I know myself to be. But it did damage the happiness it gave me to be that most special person in my H's eyes. Why? Because he is the most special man in the world to me. Therefore, his opinion matters to me more than anyone else's other than my own.

 

So you are correct -- right now, you are unequal. You are her one and only. She thought she was the most special person in the world to you. She now knows she isn't. However, you still get to feel that you are the most special person in the world to her. She has reinforced that by comitting to stay with you and work on this marriage despite the personal pain she is experiencing. But she is willing to fight through it -- for you and your children.

 

The way you can help her and ultimately yourself is to try and restore her feeling that she, and only she, holds that special place in your life. The person you confide in, turn to first when sad or happy, desire, desire to please, share secrets with, etc. This is a place where I ASSURE you, dividends will be received for the the investments you make.

 

In a related subject, recognize when you compare her to OW, that you helped give OW that self confidence through the risks you took to be with her and the obsessive way you have behaved towards her. That is the mother of all ego boosts. I think that since you decided to break it off with her, her actions have been more insecure and needy than self confident.

 

Your wife needs time to recover. Help her and I think you will both be happier for it.

[whichwayisup]

T, I look forward to seeing an update in about a month from now.

 

One thing, I do hope you take Owl's suggestion of quitting your job. If you go full on NC with the OW I really believe your life will get easier and you'll be able to focus on you, your wife and fixing the marriage.

 

Another thing, if your wife had kicked you out, chances are, you'd be out for good, so consider yourself LUCKY that she's given you a second chance and ALLOWING you to stay in the home. Respect THAT.

[Tomcat33]

Triarge, I hope you won't drop off though I know this can be fatiguing.

 

I just want to offer some thoughts on self esteem from a BS. I don't believe people either have it or don't. I think it ebbs and flows in all of us based on what is going on in our lives at the time and our relative abilities to handle those things.

 

Your wife may in fact have more self esteem and self confidence than is apparent at the moment. Does it take more self confidence to kick your WS out and throw away all you have built or is it more self confident to think you have the ability to forgive and rebuild a troubled marriage? In the eye of the beholder I think. I can certainly tell you it takes a lot of courage to try and forgive and rebuild. Many times I think it would have been emotionally easier to cut and run. I'm just not wired that way -- I'm not a quitter, and maybe your wife isn't either.

 

If she had no self confidence, she might have assumed she could never compete with OW and didn't want to try. She seems capable of believing that you would rather be with her. That being said, she has absolutely taken a full body blow to her confidence that you view her in the special way a wife hopes to be viewed by her H. That is important to any wife and you have sent a message to her via your A and subsequent actions that you have doubts about your feelings. It will be hard for her to regain the confidence that you hold her in high regard again without your help.

 

I believed that my H viewed me as more special than any other woman, else why would he still be with me after 30+ years? His A and feelings for OW shattered that. I want to make a clear distinction -- it didn't shatter my sense of self confidence in myself and in the kind of person I know myself to be. But it did damage the happiness it gave me to be that most special person in my H's eyes. Why? Because he is the most special man in the world to me. Therefore, his opinion matters to me more than anyone else's other than my own.

 

So you are correct -- right now, you are unequal. You are her one and only. She thought she was the most special person in the world to you. She now knows she isn't. However, you still get to feel that you are the most special person in the world to her. She has reinforced that by comitting to stay with you and work on this marriage despite the personal pain she is experiencing. But she is willing to fight through it -- for you and your children.

 

The way you can help her and ultimately yourself is to try and restore her feeling that she, and only she, holds that special place in your life. The person you confide in, turn to first when sad or happy, desire, desire to please, share secrets with, etc. This is a place where I ASSURE you, dividends will be received for the the investments you make.

 

In a related subject, recognize when you compare her to OW, that you helped give OW that self confidence through the risks you took to be with her and the obsessive way you have behaved towards her. That is the mother of all ego boosts. I think that since you decided to break it off with her, her actions have been more insecure and needy than self confident.

 

Your wife needs time to recover. Help her and I think you will both be happier for it.

 

I'm sorry but your whole post denotes that a person's self confidence is dependant on another human being that in itself seems to me a weak outlook on selfconfidence. Self confidence is of the self, we either have it or don't and though it can fluctuate at any praticular time the idea that it depleats given certain circumstances we engage in again is more about the choices WE make for ourselves than what another can control over us.

[Tomcat33]

Does it take more self confidence to kick your WS out and throw away all you have built or is it more self confident to think you have the ability to forgive and rebuild a troubled marriage? In the eye of the beholder I think. I can certainly tell you it takes a lot of courage to try and forgive and rebuild. Many times I think it would have been emotionally easier to cut and run. I'm just not wired that way -- I'm not a quitter, and maybe your wife isn't either.

 

Undoubtedly it takes a lot of courage to rebuild a relationship after betrayal. The notion that it is easier to cut and run, is only comparable to the idea of just how hard the unknown and starting life over alone is in one's mind. I seriously doubt that a person who chooses to stay had weighed out the two and thought it is much easier to run, if that were the case and we were weighing out the levels of comfort I am sure you would be INSANE to chose such a hard road instead. The idea that one is easier than the other is relative, but we imagine the idea that at the end of the "seemingly harder choice" there is the love of the person we choose to love, waiting for us with renewed emotions and views on us, seems like a bigger reward than trying to envision a life with a new partner or worse off alone.

 

It takes a lot more selfconfidence to face life alone and accept the gamble that we could very well BE alone than it does to seek a life of extreme hardship to ensure we are not alone. The people that chose the potential of a lonely road, deep down have the certainty that no matter what they will be ok if it does turn out that way and that is the true description of self confidence, relying solely and purely on the "self"

[sylviaguardian]

Triarge,

 

lady jane made the comment that often the BS doesn't offer the best advice in these situations but I thought I would steam roller in and offer my opinion anyway.

 

My husband had an affair with a work colleague and didn't quit his job for the same reasons as you. That was over 3 years ago and the affair has never gone away. We tried counselling etc but the bottom line was that this woman came to be a permament feature in our marriage.

 

Let me tell you, the pain and uncertainty have been horrible over the last 3 years and I have learned to cope with it by not giving a damn. I was so motivated to make the relationship work again but I feel that him staying at work basically sends out a strong message that he doesn't really care about what I go through. I haven't read all of your posts but enough to see that your wife's feelings don't figure strongly in your thinking either.

 

I have made the decision to stay until my children are older but our relationship is essentially dead. As soon as the kids go, I will too. My husband is too blind to even realise any of this - he thinks things are OK between us! Maybe this is what you want, I don't know. But I do know that every day you work beside the OW, you are totally disregarding your wife's feelings

[Ladyjane14]

lady jane made the comment that often the BS doesn't offer the best advice in these situations but I thought I would steam roller in and offer my opinion anyway.

 

I put that poorly then.

Maybe the better phrase would've been "offer the best understanding" rather than "offer the best insight". Certainly, formerly wayward spouses do have another side of the story to contribute.

[smartgirl]

Tomcat - I do not want to engage in a tit for tat with you on this issue. You and I disagree on almost all points regarding a BW who decides to try and repair her marriage. Our viewpoints are drawn from very different experiences, unless you were also a BW at one point. But I don't think so.

 

I do want to clear up a point though. You misunderstood the point I was trying to make with regard to self confidence. I specifically attempted to make a distinction between self confidence and a feeling of confidence about how your spouse feels about you. They are, in my view, two different things. I have confidence in myself. I know who I am and what I want. I like myself just fine.

 

For a time, my confidence was shaken that my H felt about me the way I thought was necessary for our marriage to be successful and fulfilling. I knew that he was recovering in his own way, what I didn't know at first was whether the A represented a temporary digression or a permanent change in view toward me and our marriage. From my own point of view, I was willing to give him the benefit of a doubt that he meant what he said about the A being a temporary situation and that he wanted more than anything to earn my forgiveness and repair our marriage. If he had not demonstrated that to me in the way he has, I would not have hesitated to end the marriage.

 

I believe that it took a great deal of self confidence on my part to weather this initial period of uncertainty. But I take my marriage vows and the comittment I made to my husband seriously. He did something terrible. People do all kinds of terrible things. Which of those things should cause us to abandon our own beliefs and principals and the comittment we made to that person? That is a personal decision every person must make. But I don't believe it should be based on which of those things are easy to forgive and which are difficult. And I don't think that a person who chooses to honor their own vows should be labled as lacking in self confidence, self respect or as unworthy of the respect of others.

[OpenBook]

What if I am 100% whole as a person and what if my W isnt. (I can here you all scream "Dont blame this on her") Would that matter to me and should it? Can I underpin our marriage and carry her extra 50%.

 

My W lacks confidence... I do try and boost her confidence (maybe I dont enough) but I want it to come from her and not be spoon fed from me... I want my wife to be the woman she is and actually like who she is. I want her to be self contained and 'want' me but not neccasarily 'need' me.

 

As crazy as it sounds, I actually wish she'd kicked me out on D-day because it would have given me a huge amount of respect for her if she had. I needed a good kicking out.

 

I don't think that a person who chooses to honor their own vows should be labled as lacking in self confidence, self respect or as unworthy of the respect of others.

 

Tell that to Triarge!! This, I think, reinforces Tomcat's point - that the W should NOT be looking to the H for her self-confidence. Not only is that a bit of a shaky source right now... but Triarge himself doesn't want that burden. He doesn't respect her BECAUSE she is looking to him to validate her sense of worth. That is bad jou-jou. Definitely not a basket into which you would want to place any eggs.

 

And as far as honoring the vows, the W is already off the hook, in my book. Triarge made such a mockery of them that there's nothing she can do to break anything anyway. They've already been broken into a million pieces.

[White Flower]

Tell that to Triarge!! This, I think, reinforces Tomcat's point - that the W should NOT be looking to the H for her self-confidence. Not only is that a bit of a shaky source right now... but Triarge himself doesn't want that burden. He doesn't respect her BECAUSE she is looking to him to validate her sense of worth. That is bad jou-jou. Definitely not a basket into which you would want to place any eggs.

 

And as far as honoring the vows, the W is already off the hook, in my book. Triarge made such a mockery of them that there's nothing she can do to break anything anyway. They've already been broken into a million pieces.

These are good points as well as those of smartgirl.

 

Triarge,

I wish I could talk to your wife. I was once like her, if I am understanding the way you are describing her. She needs to be surrounded by girlfriends who can "talk her up", joke about sex, and help build her confidence. Buy her some books on the subject. People can change and improve. I am like so wow now! Not conceited, but much more confident. I hope she does, life is so much better when you are comfortable in your own skin. Keep up your end of the encouragement, but help her to find her own way as well.

[Tomcat33]

Tell that to Triarge!! This, I think, reinforces Tomcat's point - that the W should NOT be looking to the H for her self-confidence. Not only is that a bit of a shaky source right now... but Triarge himself doesn't want that burden. He doesn't respect her BECAUSE she is looking to him to validate her sense of worth. That is bad jou-jou. Definitely not a basket into which you would want to place any eggs.

 

And as far as honoring the vows, the W is already off the hook, in my book. Triarge made such a mockery of them that there's nothing she can do to break anything anyway. They've already been broken into a million pieces.

 

thanks that was my point. I was talking about the woman in question.

I agree that the BS is off the hook when the A happens, what honoring the vows, c'mon you've been backstabbed in the worst way possible and your goal is to honour the vows? what is the point of having vows if one can break them only to make the other try harder?

 

Tomcat - I do not want to engage in a tit for tat with you on this issue. You and I disagree on almost all points regarding a BW who decides to try and repair her marriage. Our viewpoints are drawn from very different experiences, unless you were also a BW at one point. But I don't think so.

 

I do want to clear up a point though. You misunderstood the point I was trying to make with regard to self confidence. I specifically attempted to make a distinction between self confidence and a feeling of confidence about how your spouse feels about you. They are, in my view, two different things. I have confidence in myself. I know who I am and what I want. I like myself just fine.

 

For a time, my confidence was shaken that my H felt about me the way I thought was necessary for our marriage to be successful and fulfilling. I knew that he was recovering in his own way, what I didn't know at first was whether the A represented a temporary digression or a permanent change in view toward me and our marriage. From my own point of view, I was willing to give him the benefit of a doubt that he meant what he said about the A being a temporary situation and that he wanted more than anything to earn my forgiveness and repair our marriage. If he had not demonstrated that to me in the way he has, I would not have hesitated to end the marriage.

 

I believe that it took a great deal of self confidence on my part to weather this initial period of uncertainty. But I take my marriage vows and the comittment I made to my husband seriously. He did something terrible. People do all kinds of terrible things. Which of those things should cause us to abandon our own beliefs and principals and the comittment we made to that person? That is a personal decision every person must make. But I don't believe it should be based on which of those things are easy to forgive and which are difficult. And I don't think that a person who chooses to honor their own vows should be labled as lacking in self confidence, self respect or as unworthy of the respect of others.

 

And neither do I. It's ok we disagree. As a matter of fact I do speak from exeprience I was a BS, or BP I was engaged to be married and cheated on. Same feelings same process, same forgiveness has to take place same decision had to be made on the betrayed part. Do I want to embark on a life of uncertainty or do I want to cut my loses?

 

I respect your stance, I was not zeroing you out. I was talking in reference to the woman in question. A person's self esteem will drop and they will have doubts once they have been cheated on that is inevitable which is even more a reason to look at the worth of the grave sacrifice one must endure in order to achieve the goal of recovery.

 

Yes if you look at it from that stand point it can be looked at as valiant effort to try to overcome that. I still don't see how that is a matter of self confidence, when you are relying on the person that backstabbed you to PROVE to you that you are still worthy? All BSs expect reassurance and the hard work or proof from the cheater that it was just a passing thing, that to me denotes relying on someone else to boost our wellbeing. Rightly so they were the culprit or protagonist of the agony. Self confidence would be working at the recovery without relying on the reassurance of the cheat, and that is impossible. So it is subjective to say it takes self confidence to overcome it. Self confidence cannot be had unless it is being reinforced by the cheating partner. Reassurance yes, self confidence not so much. IMO

 

People do terrible things yes but speaking of all the mundane terrible things a spouse can do to you I can't think of any other common "terrible" thing that quite equates with having an affair on you?

 

I guess if I found out my boyfriend made a pass at my daughter, nothing happened just a pass I too could justify it with "well people do all kinds of terrible things and make mistakes" If I felt that was a good enough reason for me to accept a circumstance no one can tell me otherwise, in fact no one SHOUlD tell me otherwise it is my life and I live by my own rules. So I can see where people come from with their rationalizations.

 

The one night stand my ex had on me was enough to shatter all my hopes and respect. I can't imagine a long drawn out relationship that was based solely on deceit behind my back WHILE he slept next to me every night. Again I can't deny it takes valiant effort and you must really want the end result badly, whatever that end result represents for each individual is hard to say, but very personal undeniably.

[Tomcat33]

These are good points as well as those of smartgirl.

 

Triarge,

I wish I could talk to your wife. I was once like her, if I am understanding the way you are describing her. She needs to be surrounded by girlfriends who can "talk her up", joke about sex, and help build her confidence. Buy her some books on the subject. People can change and improve. I am like so wow now! Not conceited, but much more confident. I hope she does, life is so much better when you are comfortable in your own skin. Keep up your end of the encouragement, but help her to find her own way as well.

 

 

That is some really great advice WF!! I liked all that. If all else fails there is always Toastmasters. lol

 

What baffles me is how come this man married a woman that is so seemingly "insecure" I mean at some point he must have thought these were endearing qualities in her and at what point in a person's life with another do those endearing qualities turn into a deal breaker as such?

I am not convinced that he wishes she was more self confident I seriously see it as the grass is greener thing, it is just different and new what he experienced with the OW making the W old news, but it seems hardly a flaw in her. Not to mention that life with a "self confident" woman can be new and excting but utlimately it will bring a whole bag of problems too, there is no such thing as all better. If you want change you just have to be prepared to gain new things but give up others. It's always a trade off.

 

 

In reference to what Triarge is saying though I can see why if a person reacts in a passive way after finding the affair I would wonder why they were doing so as well and I don't know that I could respect them either. I mean if they are willing to take that what else are they willing to take, would be my train of thought? But then again I have never been in the cheater's shoes so I don't know ultimately how I would feel.

[White Flower]

That is some really great advice WF!! I liked all that. If all else fails there is always Toastmasters. lol

 

 

 

In reference to what Triarge is saying though I can see why if a person reacts in a passive way after finding the affair I would wonder why they were doing so as well and I don't know that I could respect them either. I mean if they are willing to take that what else are they willing to take, would be my train of thought? But then again I have never been in the cheater's shoes so I don't know ultimately how I would feel.

Thanks! And I have thought about joining toastmasters, too.

 

I think you're right about passivity. I was too passive with my H and let him have too much power and conrol. I thought I was being the good wife. And when I did speak up and try to fight for myself, well, his narcissitic ways took over. We were never a good match for those reasons. MM helped me to feel confidence and for that I will always be grateful. I really hope Triarge's wife can build her confidence up for herself and for him.

[Triarge]

Does anyone know how many posts you have to have made before you get the Private Message function? I checked the FAQ's and it doesnt say (or I cant find it).

 

I've had an email exchange with the OW. I wanted someones thoughts on them and I'd rather not post them on a public board out of respect.