NC without NC

[Ladyjane14]

I'm just banking on her not waiting around forever. How long is she likely to wait before she gives up and moves on? <shrug>

 

...Until she has a reason NOT to.

 

That's why I'm saying your best bet is to create enough of a "stink" around yourself so as to have her dismiss you as an oaf. If she's thinking, "OMG, what did I ever see in that guy?", she'll congratulate herself on missing the bullet and move on. If you leave her to find her own "reason", she's likely to stay in orbit until she's got a replacement for you... that is, until another man captures her attention.

 

That's why the ego-boost you're getting from her attention is incompatible with your goal of staying married. It feeds the wrong wolf and keeps YOU in turmoil, increasing the difficulty level of creating your intimacy bubble at home.

 

Bear in mind that up to 90% of your communications are non-verbal, and that women have the home-field advantage when it comes to processing and utilizing emotional data. So it only stands to reason that... the OW knows you're still watching.

 

Willpower isn't enough. You've got to "burn this bridge" decisively. And since you can't afford to kick over the anthill in doing so... you're gonna need to eat this bear one bite at a time, one interchange at a time.

 

Stink it up, fella.

This doesn't go away until she's wrinkling her nose at the mere sight of you.

 

 

 

(Thanks WF.

Just adding a thought, but did you know that the "in love" response is actually measurable on MRI? Sometimes I think the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people allowed for longer engagements. That way, they'd know their love has blossomed to fullness. But no... we ALL go rushing right on it, don't we? )

[White Flower]

...

 

(Thanks WF.

Just adding a thought, but did you know that the "in love" response is actually measurable on MRI? Sometimes I think the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people allowed for longer engagements. That way, they'd know their love has blossomed to fullness. But no... we ALL go rushing right on it, don't we? )

Wow, that is incredible! I'll google it, but do you already have any links or info on it? Thanks.

[Ladyjane14]

Wow, that is incredible! I'll google it, but do you already have any links or info on it? Thanks.

 

If you type into your browser, "romantic love mri"... you'll find scads. But here's a good one:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/14/love.science/index.html

 

Cool stuff.

[Ladyjane14]

Oooh... here's another good one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/health/psychology/31love.html?pagewanted=print

 

Exerpt:

The intoxication of new love mellows with time, of course, and the brain scan findings reflect some evidence of this change, Dr. Fisher said.

 

In an earlier functional M.R.I. study of romance, published in 2000, researchers at University College London monitored brain activity in young men and women who had been in relationships for about two years. The brain images, also taken while participants looked at photos of their beloved, showed activation in many of the same areas found in the new study - but significantly less so, in the region correlated with passionate love, she said.

 

In the new study, the researchers also saw individual differences in their group of smitten lovers, based on how long the participants had been in the relationships. Compared with the students who were in the first weeks of a new love, those who had been paired off for a year or more showed significantly more activity in an area of the brain linked to long-term commitment.

[NoIDidn't]

My H and the OW still work for the same company, but in different offices. I don't think I could handle him working in the same office with her. But I still had the same issues.

 

She would call him to ask "how things were"? She would corner him in the mailroom when he went to her building in tears because of how things panned out.

 

LJ's advice is right. It took my H seeing that he had to burn that last bridge, put out those last embers of hope to make her see that it was over as was any friendship that they may have thought could be savaged.

 

Now they are both over each other, and trying to figure out what they ever saw in the other to begin with.

[White Flower]

Oooh... here's another good one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/health/psychology/31love.html?pagewanted=print

 

Exerpt:

That is so interesting:p. Thanks so much for the links.

 

You've obviously done a whole lot of research on love. Your H is one lucky guy and you should remind him of that. Tell him that some OW told you to tell him so.

[Triarge]

Thanks for those two articles LJ. Very interesting reading!!

 

Had to laugh at some points though..

 

Thus, if it sometimes seems like a woman remembers everything -- good and bad -- about a man, "it's not just her being picky. It's an old Darwinian evolutionary strategy."

 

So thats why women never let us forget the things we do. It all makes sense now And...

 

Last summer, scientists at Emory University in Atlanta reported that injecting a ratlike animal called a vole with a single gene turned promiscuous males into stay-at-home dads - by activating precisely the same area of the brain where researchers in the new study found increased activity over time.

 

Hmm... how long before little male babies are being jabbed at birth by scowling midwifes?

[Ladyjane14]

Hmm... how long before little male babies are being jabbed at birth by scowling midwifes?

 

That'd definitely take the wanderlust out of 'em. :p:p

 

But OTOH, mamas being what they are, I think said "scowling midwives" would have to climb over dead bodies in order to do it.

[White Flower]

So, how's it going Triarge? Do you have an update for us?

[Triarge]

Very confused right now..

 

I didnt want to post as I couldnt give you anything positive. I guess thats wrong though because it wont help me if I only tell you what you want to hear.

 

My head 'knows' and has all the right answers and reasoning but my emotions are very mixed up right now. Actually though thats not entirely true. It would be more acurate to say that I cant feel much at all. Its like a void.

 

Anyway the bad: Despite me trying to be 'Mr Stinky' and failing miserably (not on the account of the advice but my lack of execution) I seem to have lapsed into 'friends' with the OW. I know that will dissapoint you but I'm its not as bad as you might think.

 

To explain: I have an emotional 'long arm' concerning the OW. I'm not in any fog anymore and I can think straight. My head is still clear on how any possible future would play out with the her. Not good. To be quite frank I doubt I could ever trust her. That issue is very important to me and a huge hurdle that she'll never be able to overcome. Also, some of the things she's said over the last few days I've seen differently. Her confidence (over) seems more like arrogance. Her sarcasm (once amusing) seems more annoying than anything.

 

My major issue right now is with my W. My feelings are completly erratic. I feel love one moment and indifference the next. One minute I open up the next I'm caged off. I feel like I'm Dr Jackle and Mr Hyde.

 

Whats driving me crazy is that I know its me. Or I know its supposed to be me. Except I cant find the fault. I've read articles about how you shouldnt look for someone else to 'complete' you. That you should be a 'whole' person yourself. I actually feel whole. I like myself. I like who I am and how I am. I read books constantly on self improvement. I keep fit. I'm in good shape. I like my humour, my mind. I dont feel lacking in any respect as a person. That might sound arrogant but its not that way; more a self respect/love way.

 

So why, for the last 10 yrs have I felt something missing? Its like I'm searching for something thats forever illusive. Sorry, I realise no one can answer that but me. I'm just sounding out.

[whichwayisup]

Problem is, you're getting something out of it, even though it's not going anywhere. Sure, you have the OW at arms length and you're seeing her in a different light (you're waking up and realizing her sh.it DOES stink, she's not perfect and that 'in awe' light you once saw her in, is fading away quickly. She filled in a big need inside you that has been missing for a long time, now you're realizing that hole is still there, neither the OW or your wife can fix it. Sure the OW was a patch over the hole for a little while, but now that patch has fallen off and you're realizing something IS wrong.

 

So why, for the last 10 yrs have I felt something missing? Its like I'm searching for something thats forever illusive. Sorry, I realise no one can answer that but me. I'm just sounding out.

 

Do some journal writing about this, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but counselling will help you understand and find out what that missing piece is.

 

My major issue right now is with my W. My feelings are completly erratic. I feel love one moment and indifference the next. One minute I open up the next I'm caged off. I feel like I'm Dr Jackle and Mr Hyde.

 

I would figure this is normal because of what happened with you and the OW. Now you only have your wife to focus on with feelings, and that is bringing alot of emotional confusion into the picture as well. And yes, it leads back to you and whatever it is that is missing..

[Triarge]

Problem is, you're getting something out of it, even though it's not going anywhere. Sure, you have the OW at arms length and you're seeing her in a different light (you're waking up and realizing her sh.it DOES stink, she's not perfect and that 'in awe' light you once saw her in, is fading away quickly. She filled in a big need inside you that has been missing for a long time, now you're realizing that hole is still there, neither the OW or your wife can fix it. Sure the OW was a patch over the hole for a little while, but now that patch has fallen off and you're realizing something IS wrong.

 

Thanks WWIU.. I think theres alot of truth in what you said. I know I'm playing with fire by letting there be any sort of 'friendship' but thats the line I've drawn in the sand. Actually I may have overused the word friendship. Its just more cordial than it was.

 

The patch you describe makes sense. My life was renewed and I lost those 'lost' feelings during the A. Afterall, when things are that complicated your hardly struggling with thoughts about your existence.

 

I like the journal idea. I've thought about that but I'd be afraid of it being discovered. Maybe an online journal of sorts might work. <shrug>

 

I need to do the councelling I know. But I also see you guys as councelling too

[Ladyjane14]

Its like I'm searching for something thats forever illusive.

 

Dopamine and adrenaline, most likely.

You didn't notice the lack very much at the height of your affair, did you? You might have been feeling indecisive, confused, frustrated, or any number of other things... but you probably felt 'full' too.

 

You know, the function of a long-time mate is incompatible with the search for excitement. No matter how exciting we are as individuals... to someone who knows us well, each one of us is still familiar. In a good marriage, we're a comforting, loving, and companionable presence, regardless of how much excitement we might elicit in say.. a new lover.

 

And really, that's how it should be. The whole point of mature love is that we comfort and support each other through this big-ole-mean-scary world, not that we pop our partner full of adrenaline every 15 minutes. If somebody else is creating all your excitement, you never have time to create any of your own.

 

There exists the possibility that you might have some physiological issues, maybe a bit of an imbalance, but it's more likely that you're just not emotionally satisfied with your life. Afterall, you don't sound all that depressed or out of control, so I'm thinking whatever physiological imbalance you might have would be a minor one. But... if at the end of the day, you don't feel like you are LIVING your life, achieving your personal goals, leaving your mark... it might be nibbling at your subconscious like a little mouse.

 

You've got a good mind. Don't waste it.

Find something that turns you on intellectually... and then feed some of this restless energy into it. It doesn't matter WHAT it is, as long as you enjoy it and care about it. So... you don't have to take up sky-diving or mountain climbing unless that's what you're into. Training for a marathon, or searching through a dusty old library for some lost historical fact, heck... even building the perfect birdhouse... will do it as long as that's what you're into. Think of it as you would revitalizing an old, forgotten, boyhood dream.

 

To my way of thinking, there are THREE entities in marriage.... the two individuals and the 'couple entity'. And all three of these entities need care and feeding. Energy supplies must be broadcast equally by both you and your wife. On a given day, you might remember to pick up your wife's favorite brand of tea and carry her a cup when she's come home exhausted, thus feeding her some energy. You two might later decide to make love and have a fantastic time in the sack together.. thus feeding the couple entity. But you better make sure that you're doing something for YOU as well. As long as it takes nothing away from the other two entities, it's going to ADD to your marital happiness rather than subtract from it.

 

Think of your marital dynamic as a trinity with each entity separate and yet whole, rather than as two people who each comprise half of the dynamic. In that way, you see that each of the three entities needs to be running at 100% capacity and not 50%. If you look at it that way, 50% leaves a person feeling a bit empty and lifeless, doesn't it?

[smartgirl]

Sigh. Friends? You know better than that.

 

You are making the same mistake my H made. I didn't know for about 9 months after the A that they worked in the same office and that she was talking to him about the A, the current situation, trying to get her marriage back on track,etc. on a regular basis. He thought this was the best way to keep a lid on things, have a "graceful" exit from the A and still be working on our marriage. He thought this would be best for all. Wrong.

 

1. It kept things alive and kicking with her. Not that she wanted to get it started again, she just wanted to continue to have his attention focused on her. It was like she was addicted to the conversations/confrontations. It was only after he told me everything, let her know that I knew and made it brutally clear to her that our M was his only priority that it finally registered with her that the emotional connection was gone. He had to take away all the remaining secrets between them and put it all out in the open for her to get it. Then she stopped.

 

2. It kept things alive with him. For many months, it left him with a need to relive the A in his mind, to want to see her, to grieve for the lost good feelings, to still consider her a fallback option if we didn't make it. He told her none of this, he just held it all in. All the same, these things kept him giving her the attention she demanded, feed her addiction and kept him from feeling fully back in the M, though he was absolutely comitted to staying and making it work. It took an emotional toll on him, though he didn't see it at the time.

 

3. It was hell for me. I didn't know all this was going on, but it was clear to me that part of him was still somewhere else. He just seemed sort of dead inside. Sometimes capable of great affection and sometimes disconnected. I was really getting close to leaving him over this. I don't know about your W, but I didn't want to settle for a H who was there in body but not in spirit.

 

So my passionately felt advice, is stop having anything at all to do with that woman and try like hell to get out of that job. Your current actions are only dragging out the pain for everyone!!!!!

 

That brings me to the next subject, which is you and your missing piece. Did you ever consider that this something missing has absolutely nothing to do with your body, marriage or sex life and might be more to do with your career or what you are failing to contribute to your kids, community, spiritual life, whatever? There is more to having a fulfilling life than the quality of the person you are poking.

 

You need to be looking at the rest of you. Get help if you need it, but I think you have been looking in all the wrong places.

[White Flower]

That brings me to the next subject, which is you and your missing piece. Did you ever consider that this something missing has absolutely nothing to do with your body, marriage or sex life and might be more to do with your career or what you are failing to contribute to your kids, community, spiritual life, whatever? There is more to having a fulfilling life than the quality of the person you are poking.

 

You need to be looking at the rest of you. Get help if you need it, but I think you have been looking in all the wrong places.

I love this part smartgirl! I am already looking up clubs to get involved in.

[Ladyjane14]

I love this part smartgirl! I am already looking up clubs to get involved in.

 

I liked that too. Outstanding quote.

[Tomcat33]

 

 

. I doesnt add up. She's attractive, cleaver, ambitious, funny. I told her to go find some other guy. One that didnt have a history of cheating and no baggage. But she always told me that she'd never find anyone else like me, nor had she ever been with anyone like me. All fuel for the ego I know.

 

..

 

The same questions you could ask of your wife.

How would she answer those very same questions?

[child_of_isis]

Pure genius.

 

Did you ever consider that this something missing has absolutely nothing to do with your body, marriage or sex life and might be more to do with your career or what you are failing to contribute to your kids, community, spiritual life, whatever?

[Triarge]

That brings me to the next subject, which is you and your missing piece. Did you ever consider that this something missing has absolutely nothing to do with your body, marriage or sex life and might be more to do with your career or what you are failing to contribute to your kids, community, spiritual life, whatever? There is more to having a fulfilling life than the quality of the person you are poking.

 

Yes of course! As I have said previously, I acknowledge that the fault most probably lies withing myself.

 

But.. what if its 'not' me? LJ had me thinking last night with regards to her post about the 'trinity' of marriage.

 

Think of your marital dynamic as a trinity with each entity separate and yet whole, rather than as two people who each comprise half of the dynamic

 

I'm not trying to defer blame so please look at what I'm saying objectionaly. As a counter argument. What if I am 100% whole as a person and what if my W isnt. (I can here you all scream "Dont blame this on her") Would that matter to me and should it? Can I underpin our marriage and carry her extra 50%.

 

My W lacks confidence. She always has since long before my A. I think she's beautifull but she doesnt carry that same opinion of herself. She's often said that she wonders why I picked her. I do try and boost her confidence (maybe I dont enough) but I want it to come from her and not be spoon fed from me.

 

'Poking' aside , with the OW things felt on a more 'equal' footing. She was confident and could emotionally/intellectually hold her own. I like confidence in a woman. Dont get me wrong. I dont want my wife to be anything like 'her'. I would like her to have confidence in herself though. I want my wife to be the woman she is and actually like who she is. I want her to be self contained and 'want' me but not neccasarily 'need' me.

 

As crazy as it sounds, I actually wish she'd kicked me out on D-day because it would have given me a huge amount of respect for her if she had. I needed a good kicking out.

 

I tried telling her this (apart from the kicking out bit) a while back and she knows she lacks confidence. The question is, how do I get her to find it for herself? Councelling? Surely you need to respect your partner in any relationship. How can you respect your partner if they dont respect themselves?

 

There was more to say here but work calls.. For now I thank you all again for your thoughts, time and effort in posting.

[OpenBook]

What if I am 100% whole as a person and what if my W isnt. (I can here you all scream "Dont blame this on her") Would that matter to me and should it? Can I underpin our marriage and carry her extra 50%.

 

And who made you the judge of who is 100% whole and who is not? And do you appreciate the extra weight that SHE is carrying on YOUR behalf? A marriage is very much a two-way street... but I believe it's unrealistic to think that it's always 50-50. Because life just doesn't work that way. Somebody is always pulling more than 50%. Ideally, you'd take turns "carrying the load" thoughout the course of the marriage, and it would all even out in the end. But again, life steps in and blows "ideal" right out of the water.

 

My W lacks confidence. She always has since long before my A. I think she's beautifull but she doesnt carry that same opinion of herself. She's often said that she wonders why I picked her. I do try and boost her confidence (maybe I dont enough) but I want it to come from her and not be spoon fed from me.

 

So why DID you pick her? On some level, did you not find her insecurity attractive? That it made you feel like the "hero" - her Knight In Shining Armor, rescuing her? And how would you feel if she really DID boost her own self-confidence, to the point where she didn't need you to be her hero anymore - that she was her own hero? Somehow I think you wouldn't take that too well.

 

'Poking' aside , with the OW things felt on a more 'equal' footing. She was confident and could emotionally/intellectually hold her own. I like confidence in a woman.

 

Yes, confidence is very attractive, in men and in women. But we all have our insecurities. Your OW may have hid hers from you well. But she has them. Would this change your view of her?

 

Sorry for all the questions, Triarge, and I could be totally wrong about you. I've got my own thing going on here, struggling with men's expectations of us, whether we are the W or the OW... so I guess you hit a nerve with me. I just hope that my questions will open up an interesting dialogue between you and your W, and that you'll hash it out somehow and find some answers. We're all looking for them.

[Triarge]

And who made you the judge of who is 100% whole and who is not?

 

No one.. I expressed a 'What if'. Have you read the last post as a snap shot and based all your argument on that or the whole thread? I had hoped that I had expressed myself as taking ownership of the problem and not 'deferring' blame. All I have done is question myself and the 'Why's?' as to what I did. The last email was a counter question. Like a devils advocate sort of thing.

 

And do you appreciate the extra weight that SHE is carrying on YOUR behalf?

 

Yes. She carries her share of the 'pulling' in the marriage and probably more. I'm not talking about "carrying the load" of every day things. I'm talking about the 'emotional' strength and structure of our relationship. It might be unrealistic for it to be 50-50 all the time but doesnt it have to be at least that some fo the time?

 

So why DID you pick her? On some level, did you not find her insecurity attractive? That it made you feel like the "hero" - her Knight In Shining Armor, rescuing her?

 

She wasnt unconfident then. She wasnt unconfident when I married her as I recall. If I was her 'hero' then thats her perspective not mine. Maybe she did need rescuing (how would I know?) My decisions to be with her were based on her being attractive to me and eventually falling in love.

 

And how would you feel if she really DID boost her own self-confidence, to the point where she didn't need you to be her hero anymore - that she was her own hero? Somehow I think you wouldn't take that too well.

 

Your assumption that I 'am' her hero is just that and nothing else. As for her gaining her own self confidence? It might take me out of a nice 'comfort' zone but I would sure see her more as my equal.

 

Yes, confidence is very attractive, in men and in women. But we all have our insecurities. Your OW may have hid hers from you well. But she has them. Would this change your view of her?

 

The OW is not a concideration for far more reasons than I want to express here. This is down to me and my W and how we can fix things for a loving future life together. I'm in 'mend it' mode not should I just 'leave mode'.

 

Sorry for all the questions, Triarge, and I could be totally wrong about you. I've got my own thing going on here, struggling with men's expectations of us, whether we are the W or the OW...

 

I'm not sure I expressed having any expectations for anyone. I want my W to be happy. I want her to help herself. I want her to 'realise' what she is. Maybe your right OpenBook,if she gets that confidence then maybe she will smell the roses and realise she can get better. Should I keep her down then? Should I 'not' encourage her to realise her potential; to grow?

 

I'm trying to find the reasons behind what I did. Logic surely must dictate that I look at 'all' the components of my relationship? Not just me but us both, and how we relate to one another.

[LifesontheUp]

Sorry Triarge but as you know there is a mountain of work to be done to put your marriage back on track.

 

Take it from me, your affair will have knocked any little bit of confidence your wife had remaining right out of her. Sounds to me that she had some sort of "sense" that she wasn't good enough for you when she's been saying she can't understand why you picked her. That has got to hurt don't you think?

 

You've admitted she had confidence when you met. So what went wrong? Have you spoken to her and explored with her why she has been feeling like this. I think you may be in for a surprise with her answers.

[child_of_isis]

Maybe your recall is off a bit?

 

When people enter into A's, they have a tendency to rewrite their M's to justify their A's.

 

All of a sudden the twice weekly sex becomes "cold", confident women become "nags", easy going women become "unconfident", SAHM becomes money grubbing W.

 

Or you could be projecting your own vulnerablities onto your wife. You have a problem with her lack of confidence and self esteem. The truth is, men who have A's are lacking in that arena.

 

Maybe when you look at W, you see yourself being reflected back to you.

 

Right now, your wife's self esteem issues are making you cheat (cough)...if/when she fixes that, what will be next?

 

The wart on her big toe?

 

Your wife fixing herself, will not fix you.

 

 

 

She wasnt unconfident then. She wasnt unconfident when I married her as I recall. .

[Triarge]

I see your point LOTU..

 

Maybe thats something we should talk about together; maybe through a councelor or something.

[LifesontheUp]

As crazy as it sounds, I actually wish she'd kicked me out on D-day because it would have given me a huge amount of respect for her if she had. I needed a good kicking out.

 

She may still do it. Don't under estimate the mixed feelings that betrayed spouses go through.

 

I tried telling her this (apart from the kicking out bit) a while back and she knows she lacks confidence. The question is, how do I get her to find it for herself? Councelling? Surely you need to respect your partner in any relationship. How can you respect your partner if they dont respect themselves?

 

Sorry but who sh** on who here? You betrayed your wife, so of course you don't respect her. Its not about her respecting herself its about YOU.

 

I've been some rough periods in my life including dealing with my xH affair. From time to time I lack confidence in myself but that DOES NOT mean my partner does not respect me. Why would it? He loves me for who I am through the good times and the bad through the rough and the smooth.