Triarge Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Ok, basically, I'm a MM who did the unspeakable and had an affair for 2 years. 10 months ago we got caught and I left the OW to stay with my wife and 2 children. The problem is that I still work with the OW. I know what everyone will say but its not an option. I dont have the option of leaving work due to the nature of the work I'm in and happen to be very well paid for the job I do. I could retrain (which I'm working on) but that could take up to 2 yrs before I get a job on the same salary. I cannot take a drop in wage as this would probably put more stress on our relationship than the A did. I know I want to work things out with my wife. I know I love my wife and I'm commited to working and seeing it through. My rational mind has gone over the options over and over and always comes back with the same result. Stay away from the OW. The problem is everytime I see her at work it weakens my strength and resolve. I take an emotional battering. It takes me hours to return to a normal state. The OW knows I have feelings for her. I dont hide them well even though I want to. I know she's waiting for me. She sends me mails asking 'How I am' or 'If I'm ok' and telling me she misses me. I either dont replay or send back a 'closed' response. You might think that this isnt so much of a problem aside from my discomfort which I duely deserver for making such a mess. Except, I'm ashamed to say this, I've got back with the OW about 4 times since D-day. NC always broke by her and I've been too weak to stand my ground. Its off now, for the last time, I'm sure and hope. Its been the longest time (over 6 weeks) since we split this last time. I've read every thread in this forum. I know its wrong. I know all the reasons. I've read all the posts by various people like WWIU and ladyJane who give sound advice amongst everyone else that does. I dont need convincing that the OW is bad news (or maybe I do) I just need to know how I go through this whilst having to see the OW everyday and how I can protect myself from going back there.
whichwayisup Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Did you tell your wife about the other 4 times you've been with the OW? How did your wife find out, did you tell her or did she discover it on her own? Look, you CAN find another job, if it takes up to two years to get that salary back, so be it. It's obvious you cannot handle being around the OW PERIOD, and this has nothing to do with how she feels about you, or if she's waiting for you - This has to do with your feelings for her. If you want her, love her, then please end your marriage, let your wife go be with a man who will adore and love only her. If you want to keep your marriage and family intact, then quit the job, MAKE yourself get over the OW by going to counselling and learning to let go of those feelings. If the OW is an ego feed for you, a sexual turn-on for you and that is why you've caved 4 times, then you have more issues inside you that need to be dealt with (counselling!) before your marriage can work. Once you really decide WHO it is you want, the rollercoaster ride will stop.
Ladyjane14 Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 Triarge, I've read your posts and you seem like an intelligent guy. So, you already know that you're in trouble. You're vulnerable, and your marriage is still at risk. WWIU is right. There should be complete NO CONTACT with the OW for the rest of your life. Because it's not just you who's affected by it. Every day, while you wrestle with your demons, your bride wrestles with her own. I know a couple who just went through something like this a few years back. They're divorced now. The husband cheated with a co-worker and 'changing jobs' was a substantial inconvenience to the family. Their work schedules and job locations had adjusted over the years in such a manner as to be nearly perfect for accommodating their kids. And the betrayed wife took a fairly stubborn stance, saying that "just because her husband couldn't keep his pecker in his pants, there was no reason why everybody else in the family should suffer". A good point, but nevertheless, her husband working alongside the OW every day burned within her. The possibility that he would reengage in the affair hung over her head like an ax, day in and day out. After awhile, she disengaged emotionally. Personally, I think the continued contact, albeit at her own insistence, made it impossible for her to put herself out there enough to recapture intimacy. So, you're not the only one who's got to gain some ground here. Infidelity CHANGES the betrayed spouse too. It presents her with new challenges in terms of sharing her intimate self with you. Of course, before the affair, she was probably able to do that with ease, like rolling off a log. But after infidelity, it's a concerted effort to allow yourself to be vulnerable to your mate, a leap of faith, that frankly, is too much for some people. If she's there for you right now and doing her best, you're ahead of the game. You just can't afford any f*ck-ups at this juncture though. You've stated that leaving your job is impossible. And I don't know your situation, so that might be true. But really... make sure. If it comes to a choice between the job and the marriage, what are you going to choose to do? Anyway, let's say that changing jobs is NOT an option. What that leaves is "burning the bridge". You've stated that you've slipped back into contact at least 4 times, and that it's the OW who initiates the contact. So logically, the next step is to provide her with disincentive in the matter of making personal contact. Ordinarily, I wouldn't recommend this... because it provides drama and if you've been reading along here at LS for a while, drama FUELS affairs. I think the trick for you is going to be to piss her off enough so she thinks you're an a*hole... but not so much as to cause her to make a cake of herself trying to inflict punishment on you. Guys tend to avoid conflict with women, most of 'em anyway. Maybe that has something to do with being raised as babies by them, I dunno. But in general, men do tend to pull on the kid gloves when dealing with us, afraid to hurt our feelings and make us cry, or whatever. What you need to do now is to develop a bit of a stink about you, so she's not as attracted... and you're not going to be able to be as polite about it as maybe you normally would. Now, 'Rome wasn't built in a day', so you're looking at an undertaking of multiple interactions. Hopefully, that'll be mostly be email. If you ramp up the energy too much, too fast... you provide drama, and you don't want that. So, each and every time she gives you the "Hey baby, how are you, I miss you so much", you find a way to insult her just a little bit, so that the contact is not worth her while. If she gets pushy, you start telling her out-front that you don't want to be with her, you're sorry for hurting her feelings, and then cite some aspect of her personality as the reason why. For example, this business about leaving her husband when you expressly told her not to... tell her that it's obvious to you that she doesn't listen to anything she doesn't want to hear and it's things like that which made you realize she's not that gal for you. You're not there to be her friend at this point. You're not there to tell her what she wants to hear. You're there to create a "stink", right? You're going from Pepe LePew, the lover... back to the skunk. So, it doesn't matter if it's authentic or not. It doesn't matter if you're ordinarily a guy who doesn't go around talking like an ass to people. And I know that sounds cold, but... I think you're caught in a trap right now and you need to start chewing that foot off, know what I mean? Desperate times call for desperate measures, and we're just talking about a bit of insensitivity bordering on rudeness. We're not talking about fitting her with concrete booties, so put in in perspective. The side benefit though, is that there's potential here for you to see the OW unveiled. People don't stay together for years and decades and never get pissed off with one another. She'll show you pretty tears at first, but then... once she's bought in to your new "stink", you're going to get a bird's eye view of how she deals with people who piss her off. And hey, that might take all the temptation out of it for you, who knows? I still think that NC is a better bet, don't get me wrong. I think it's worth changing jobs, moving to a new locale, whatever it takes when you truly want to put an infidelity behind you and protect your family. But if that's really not possible, then you can't go about it half-assed when you "burn this bridge". You need to put 100% into ending this thing. And... you'll need a deft touch, otherwise she's going to go blabbing to your wife. Remember... you have to keep the drama to a minimum at all costs. So start small, but stay "stinky". You're a smart guy, who's essentially entering into a battle of wits. This is fair footing, because even though guys are at a disadvantage when dealing with emotional issues 'on the fly' due to the fact that women process emotional data faster... this isn't that kind of contest. This is a stealth mission, this is a PLAN... and hey, I think if you apply yourself, you'll get out with your hide intact.
Author Triarge Posted November 6, 2007 Author Posted November 6, 2007 Thankyou both WWIU & LJ for your replies.. its given me a lot to think about. Firstly, no WWUI; I didnt tell my W about the other 4 incidents. That is hanging over me to some extent and a threat if I piss off the OW (much like what LJ has warned against). This has to do with your feelings for her. If you want her, love her, then please end your marriage I love my wife, I love my children and I dont see that ending my marriage would be a solution beneficial to anyone (except maybe in the OW's mind). I've already made the 'choice' as to who I want to be with and who I want as a life partner. I dont want to start second guessing that. Yeah, I f*&ked up big time in what I did. I risked everything for a bit of excitement and a huge ego fix. I woudlnt wish what I've gone through on my worst enemy. Even so I got off lightly (so far) concidering what I could have lost. Your right though WWIU, I do still have issues. I'm not sure I have figured out the 'why' yet, as to what I did, which is a worry to me. I feel like I'm still broken in some respects. We tried getting to the bottom of this in joint councelling during the immediate time after D-Day. I think it was too soon though a) Because the OW was still in the scene and b) My wife was in too much grief and saw it as more as punishment sessions for me (understandably). Second LJ, Thanks for your reply again. After reading your post it has worried me that whats going on in my wifes mind might not be all what I'm seeing. She 100% better on the outside from where she was after discovery. In fact our relationship is getting close to how it was prior to us having kids and I now actually remember how I used to feel and why I married. Your "burning bridges" plan sounds just like what I need to be doing. I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure why that is? I think its because I dont want to see mysefl in her eyes that way. Oh god how selfish does that sound?. I want her to think of me as the "one that got away" not "what a prick, jeez, close call on that one" lol.. its almost funny if it wasnt so sad. Until now I guess I've been waiting for her to find someone else (which the thought of hurts) and maybe shut the door for me. I guess I now need to start being proactive and begin lowering her opinion of me like you suggest. Will my ego let me though
Shades of Grey Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 Sorry LL but I completely disagree with this suggested approach. The OW is a person with feelings too. Triage led her on for 2 years. Strangely enough it's probably very hard for her to accept his decision or believe that he means it especially since he has continued to sleep with her since Dday. Triage, this is about you having the conviction to follow through with the decison you've made. If you truely do love your wife and want to reconcile and make things better then no amount of temptation from the OW should stand in your way. OW has probably been through enough without you behaving like a complete a*sehole towards her. Follow through your words with actions for once and i'm sure she'll soon get the message and maybe even come to respect you for facing up to your mistakes. Although i'm sure that the scars will be there for a long time to come. As for you wanting her to meet someone else and therefore make the decison for you that's just so typical of the behaviour of so many MM who just can't decide for themselves what they want and wait until the choice's and decisons are taken out of their hands. Be a man and take action to get the results you actually want for once.
Ladyjane14 Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 Your "burning bridges" plan sounds just like what I need to be doing. I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure why that is? I think its because I dont want to see mysefl in her eyes that way. Oh god how selfish does that sound?. I want her to think of me as the "one that got away" not "what a prick, jeez, close call on that one" lol.. its almost funny if it wasnt so sad. I think maybe you're onto something here in reference to those "issues" you mentioned. Maybe there's something to be had in answering the question of 'WHY' it matters to you what she thinks when clearly your goals lie elsewhere. (????) What is it that her continued attention is still validating for you? You're right that marriage counseling is ineffective when there's an affair underfoot. And to be honest, I think marriage counseling is only good for addressing issues within the marriage, things like poor communications or argumentative behaviors. Something like this... I think IC (individual counseling) is a better bet. It allows you to really delve into the minutia of what's going on inside YOU, and with a good bit more honesty than what you can achieve while sitting in the hotseat next to the person you've hurt and offended. Ultimately, your goal for the OW is to achieve indifference. And you certainly can't do that if you care what she thinks.
Ladyjane14 Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 The OW is a person with feelings too. Of course she is. But her feelings are not the objective. She's not here asking for advice. Triarge is. The fact that they had an affair together is well established, as is the fact that he's broken up with her. But she's not respecting his decision on that when she keeps pursuing him. What was... WAS. Where we are now is dealing with what IS. And yeah, I've already told him that NC is a better plan, but failing that... all he can do now is meet her continued contacts with strong rebuff. If she's hard-headed, it's going to be unpleasant for her. But if she's smart, then as Lucrezia posted earlier on another thread... "No new contact = No new hurt."
LifesontheUp Posted November 6, 2007 Posted November 6, 2007 I love my wife, I love my children and I dont see that ending my marriage would be a solution beneficial to anyone (except maybe in the OW's mind). I've already made the 'choice' as to who I want to be with and who I want as a life partner. I dont want to start second guessing that. Yeah, I f*&ked up big time in what I did. I risked everything for a bit of excitement and a huge ego fix. I woudlnt wish what I've gone through on my worst enemy. Even so I got off lightly (so far) concidering what I could have lost. Your "burning bridges" plan sounds just like what I need to be doing. I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure why that is? I think its because I dont want to see mysefl in her eyes that way. Oh god how selfish does that sound?. I want her to think of me as the "one that got away" not "what a prick, jeez, close call on that one" lol.. its almost funny if it wasnt so sad. Until now I guess I've been waiting for her to find someone else (which the thought of hurts) and maybe shut the door for me. I guess I now need to start being proactive and begin lowering her opinion of me like you suggest. Will my ego let me though Oh my you really are mixed up. What I don't get is if you've made the decision that you love and want to stay with your wife and make a go of it, why are you so bothered by how the OW feels and why have you gone back to her so many times? It makes me wonder whether you are 100% committed to making things work with your wife or just kidding yourself because you think perhaps its the right thing to do. Counselling would be a very good idea. I'm also a firm advocate that you shouldn't work with the OM/OW. Sorry but I think its essential that this is done in order to help maintain NC and also to help the betrayed spouse heal. If you are 100% committed to your wife then you will do this. No excuses, just do it. After all, what's more important here your job or your wife?
smartgirl Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 Continuing to work with the OW is going to lead to disaster - one way or another. I have been dealing with this for about a year and a half now and it is taking a toll. Our marriage is in good shape, great really. Except for the constant worry that her proximity to my H causes. For about 8 months there was her regular confrontations to deal with. She would corner my H and go on for over an hour about how he did her wrong, blah blah blah. She is married too, but was apparently all to willing to dump her H. There was my constant worry that being close to her was keeping all the feelings alive and harming our getting closer. From your description, this seems like it might have been a valid worry. I sense those feelings are mostly gone in him now, but it still keeps the whole thing fresh. I still worry about whether he compares us and if seeing her makes him remember the feelings and the sex. I worry that she is talking to him still, though he says she isn't. He has lied so much for so long I just don't know if I can believe him. I also don't want him to have to be the one to leave. She started this damn thing, kept it going when he tried to break it off (just like your OW) and then has made the after part hell. Think about this when you see the OW and she so kindly asks how you are doing. Tell her if she really cared how you were doing, she would respect your decision to work on your marriage and leave you alone so you could have some peace. That would make you happy. The fact that she instigates sex tells me that she doesn't give a s**t how you are doing. She wants to keep proving to herself that she is irresitible, no matter what the cost is to you. It is a blow to her ego for you to walk away, so she needs to keep proving that you do want her. If it hurts you or your marriage, that's too bad. That clearly isn't something that concerns her. Is that someone who cares for you really? No. Is that someone that you should care about? No. Yes, you were with her for 2 years, but now it is over and you have been upfront with her about that. Her coming on to you now is a purely hostile, angry act designed to sabatoge your attempts to heal your marriage and to show you that she still has power over you. If she really loved you and cared about your well being, she would stay away. She won't. So you have to act like a grown man and not some hormonal teenager who can't control himself. Get a grip! Quit making excuses! Take off the blinders and realize that your wife loves you and the OW is merely getting even.
Author Triarge Posted November 7, 2007 Author Posted November 7, 2007 Thanks for your replies.. this is really helping me. I'm actually having to search deep in order to think about things that have been said in order to reply. Firstly, in reply to SOG. I dont beleive I did lead her on. I never made any promises that I was ever going to leave my W. I certainly discourage her from leaving her H and told her then that we should finish and both work on our M. But your right. My actions since D-Day dont back up my convictions very well. I dont blame the OW for what she is doing. She doesnt have anything to loose and I do believe she loves me. There were alot of feelings involved at the time and its those that resurface when I see her. I know that everyone is right.. its going to be really hard to follow through unless I can leave my job and take that temptatoin out of my path. LJ.. I have thought about individual councelling. I just dont know how to go about that without raising alarm bells for my wife. She is so much better now and I dont want to bring things crashing down again. I could do it in secret but I dont like the thought of more lies and sneaking around. LOTU.. It makes me wonder whether you are 100% committed to making things work with your wife or just kidding yourself because you think perhaps its the right thing to do. This has had me thinking all night. I do know its the right thing to do - yes. I do love my wife. I have (???) feelings for the OW. 100% committed?? I'm 80% sure I'm 100% commited if that makes sense. All I know is that I have chosen a path and intend to avoid the 'other' one. Smartgirl.. I'm sorry you have had to go through this yourself. It must make you sick talking to people like me but I appreciate your advice. I found alot of truth in what you said. I do think she wants to win. I dont think she cares about the fallout either to me, my kids or my wife. She's said loads of times that she has nothing to loose and when shes sent a mail it goes like "I shouldnt be mailing you I know but.." It's my own fault also.. When she sends those mails I dont reply saying "Why you sending me this? STOP!". All I do is tell her how I'm finding it hard also (hope) but I wont cheat anymore and I'm trying (hope) to work on my marriage. I'm leaving her with that tiny bit of hope to cling to. Maybe I dont subconciously want to "burn that last bridge".. just in case it all goes wrong somewhere. Theres more I need to say but I have to log for work.. I'll try an dpost back later.
bigheartkindsoul Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 Why have you no willpower, sorry but you say you want things to work but then lose your willpower when you see the other woman. You need to pick, its not fair on either. You did wrong so why can you not leave your job if I was your wife, and you REALLY wanted to work things out with her, you'd do it in a heartbeat. I think your looking for the easy option. You can leave your just choosing not too. You can tell the OW its over and please stop contacting you but you choose not too.
bigheartkindsoul Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 Sorry not normally harsh with my words I am just grumpy today and posts like these I find upsetting as I am very much against cheating.
LifesontheUp Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 This has had me thinking all night. I do know its the right thing to do - yes. I do love my wife. I have (???) feelings for the OW. 100% committed?? I'm 80% sure I'm 100% commited if that makes sense. All I know is that I have chosen a path and intend to avoid the 'other' one. Maybe I dont subconciously want to "burn that last bridge".. just in case it all goes wrong somewhere. Triarge, I mean no disrespect with the following but what you have written does worry me in a way. Through your posts I sensed some doubt in you about whether this was going to work and I think you saying that you maybe don't want to "burn that last bridge" is what I picked up on. Unfortunately, as you are aware that is selfish of you and if you are going to make this work with your wife you need to put at least 100% into it. You need to be sure and give it your all. This is what I would wish for if I was your wife. That said, I appreciate that you are confused over everything that has happened and the pressure being put on you by the OW at work is not helping in the least. However, you NEED to get away from this OW in order to work through this. With the OW "out of the picture" you will have time to work with your wife on your marriage, and give it a fighting chance.....if that is what you truly want.
frannie Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 I've already made the 'choice' as to who I want to be with and who I want as a life partner. --- Your "burning bridges" plan sounds just like what I need to be doing. I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure why that is? I think its because I dont want to see mysefl in her eyes that way. Oh god how selfish does that sound?. I want her to think of me as the "one that got away" not "what a prick, jeez, close call on that one" lol.. its almost funny if it wasnt so sad. Until now I guess I've been waiting for her to find someone else (which the thought of hurts) and maybe shut the door for me. I guess I now need to start being proactive and begin lowering her opinion of me like you suggest. Will my ego let me though I dont beleive I did lead her on... But your right. My actions since D-Day dont back up my convictions very well.... I'm 80% sure I'm 100% commited if that makes sense. All I know is that I have chosen a path and intend to avoid the 'other' one. ... When she sends those mails I dont reply saying "Why you sending me this? STOP!". All I do is tell her how I'm finding it hard also (hope) but I wont cheat anymore and I'm trying (hope) to work on my marriage. I'm leaving her with that tiny bit of hope to cling to. Maybe I dont subconciously want to "burn that last bridge".. just in case it all goes wrong somewhere. Hello Triarge, I don't know whether changing jobs or whatever is really important, but other people seem to think so. Personally I think you really need to get to the nitty gritty of having made your choice, and dealing with the consequences of that. You say you 'intend to avoid' the 'option' of being with the OW... but as you admit, your actions do not back that up. Why is it so hard for you to be clear with the OW that it's over, and you don't see a future with her? Is it just because you don't want her to think badly of you? Or really, do you want to keep her as a 'standby' in case things don't work out. That seems to be what you're saying. Why do you think that being clear to her now would lower her opinion of you..? Perhaps she'll be happy that you could, for once, be straight with her and not leave her dangling and confused and with that destructive piece of 'hope' you keep handing her. In behaving the way you are, not only are you not being fair to your W, nor your OW, but you're sabotaging yourself too, I think. How can you be truly happy with your choice if you still have half a foot in the other camp..? How can you give your marriage your all when you're keeping doors open elsewhere..? If you are going to make a decision, truly, you have to close off that avenue, at least for now. Make a commitment to one woman, then give it your all.
Author Triarge Posted November 7, 2007 Author Posted November 7, 2007 Hmm.. I think that all that I am doing here is proving why NC works and why anything else is futile. The post was originally about how I can manage the end of the affair 'without' going through NC. It seems to have developed into a 'who do I choose?' thread. I know that this would be 100% easier without me having to see her. I know that without the constant reminder of seeing her I would have a chance of putting it all behind me. Of forgetting. There must be a damn good reason for NC that's irrespective of which party we choose to be with. Otherwise people would say NC doesnt matter. Just pick one, be 100% commited and get on with it. I figure NC is a solution because depite our very best intentions, despite or logical mind playing out events to the nth degree; we're still emotional beings with wants and needs. Those wants sometimes overide our rational side and blind us to what we should be doing, or at least thats what seems to happen with me. I have sat in the car everyday coming too and from work thinking about this for more months than I can count. Rational mind comes up with same result everytime, stay away from OW and stay with the W. My emotional side is back and forth. What do I listen to? The one thats consistent or the one that feeds me mixed messages and feelings? I feel I have a life choice to make here. I think love is secondary. I'm sure that we are capable of choosing to love whoever we want to if theres a basis of compatability. Part of my problem is that I havnt figure out what was/is missing in my M. I'm hoping that councelling will figure that out for me. I think my doubts come from the fact of not knowing what 'that thing' is and if I dont even know what 'it' is, how do I fix it, or even know if its fixable? And then I look at the OW and think, has she got what is missing. Is it the answer? Maybe, but most likely probably not, because I guess ultimately its something wrong with me. I hope I figure it out soon
Author Triarge Posted November 7, 2007 Author Posted November 7, 2007 Thanks Frannie.. I agree with what you have said. I do need to close those doors. I have told her straight. I've told her that I wont leave my wife and kids, that I cant see a future without them there 100% of the time. But I guess I've not been very 'forceful' about it. I'm going to pay if I dont do something now. Its no coincidence that I have posted now. I've handled it well for the last 6 weeks. But it's like the OW has gone on the offensive again and is actively seeking to get reinvolved. Same pattern as before. I shouldnt have expected anything different I guess. I think I'm maybe leaning on you guys for strength to help me through what I know is coming.
Shades of Grey Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 Thanks Frannie.. I agree with what you have said. I do need to close those doors. I have told her straight. I've told her that I wont leave my wife and kids, that I cant see a future without them there 100% of the time. But I guess I've not been very 'forceful' about it. I'm going to pay if I dont do something now. Its no coincidence that I have posted now. I've handled it well for the last 6 weeks. But it's like the OW has gone on the offensive again and is actively seeking to get reinvolved. Same pattern as before. I shouldnt have expected anything different I guess. I think I'm maybe leaning on you guys for strength to help me through what I know is coming. Good luck. Just be honest with her and follow through your words with actions. I hope you figure out what you want but you can't leave people hanging on whilst you decide. Take care x
Ladyjane14 Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 There must be a damn good reason for NC that's irrespective of which party we choose to be with. Otherwise people would say NC doesnt matter. Just pick one, be 100% commited and get on with it. I figure NC is a solution because depite our very best intentions, despite or logical mind playing out events to the nth degree; we're still emotional beings with wants and needs. Those wants sometimes overide our rational side and blind us to what we should be doing, or at least thats what seems to happen with me. I have sat in the car everyday coming too and from work thinking about this for more months than I can count. Rational mind comes up with same result everytime, stay away from OW and stay with the W. My emotional side is back and forth. What do I listen to? The one thats consistent or the one that feeds me mixed messages and feelings? These "wants and needs" you're describing might not be REAL though. That's the problem. Infatuation causes a physiological response which results in addiction. It's the same process that makes cocaine addictive, whereby it's not the agent itself, but rather the overproduction of natural "feel good" chemicals it causes within the body. The natural shelf-life on Infatuation is only 2-4 years, but an illicit affair can extend it for a decade or more due to the secrecy of 'the rush' factor. You FEED the addiction every time you engage in contact with the OW, even when the contact is casual, and even when you just allow your mind to wander in thought regarding her. "The rush" doesn't even have to feel pleasant in order to provide a "fix". Any kind of drama will do, even a self-induced one. Yes, there are things we want and things we need from our primary relationship, and these things are important to us. But when you're trying to beat a "love addiction", you've got a stinkin' thinker sharing brain space with you. All he cares about is getting his next "fix", and he's going to do his best to justify why that ought to be okay, even while your logical mind knows you're making a mistake. I feel I have a life choice to make here. I think love is secondary. I'm sure that we are capable of choosing to love whoever we want to if theres a basis of compatability. Infatuation and Love are NOT the same thing. Even though the feelings associated with Infatuation are strong enough to bowl a person over... they haven't withstood the test of time. Infatuation is more like a seed, from which Mature Love might either grow or wither. You can't assume that your feelings here are REAL. There's no way to know unless you leave the marriage and settle into domesticity (sans drama) with the OW. After that, in 2-4 years time the truth will be told. While I can't agree with you that Love is "secondary", I can certainly and most fervently agree that it's a CHOICE to love your partner in an active way. Moose used to post this little story in his signature line, and I just love it, so I bookmarked it: The Story of Two Wolves An Older Cherokee man is teaching his Grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he says to the boy. "it is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves". One is Evil. He is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, selfishness, arrogance, self pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego. The other is good. He is LOVE, joy, peace, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith. "This same fight is going on inside you and inside every other person". The Grandson thinks about this for a minute and then asks his Grandfather, "Which wolf will win?" The old Cherokee replies, "the one you feed”. I believe the reason that NC is the most successful method for ending an affair, is that it reinforces the choice of which wolf you'll feed and which one you'll starve. It creates room and time to break the "Love Addiction", because as science suggests to us... you need at least 21 uninterrupted days in order to disrupt an addictive habit. Casual contact creates the opportunity for your brain to fire off an involuntary "fix", whereas NO CONTACT leaves you more in control, because you have a choice or not as to whether you'll allow your mind to drift off and indulge the wrong wolf. Smartgirl is right. Reconciliation takes 100% effort. You just can't divide your energy like this if you hope to make a complete marital recovery. Anything you go at half-assed can only turn out "half-assed", right? So, your focus needs to be on you and your wife if you want to stay in this thing. These worries that you have that "something is missing" may very well be groundless, a product of your stinkin' thinker leading you off track so you can rationalize your urge to reengage in the affair. OTOH, there may very well be a deficit within the primary relationship or even within YOU. There's no way to know unless you roll up your sleeves and get the "work" done. But either way... I think you can rest assured that the problem you're having is NOT because the OW has something you need. She doesn't have anything that 3 billion other women on the planet don't have. I dunno what to tell you about counseling. It looks like you need your wife on board in order to have better support on the homefront. Maybe you could just let her know it's bugging you that you still don't know WHY you got involved in the affair in the first place. (????) I'm not going to lean on you to tell her about your slip-ups post D-Day, because even though I'm fervently opposed to dishonesty, I think you'd do well to discuss that with a professional. You have alot at risk.
whichwayisup Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 NC with the OW has to happen so you can let go of whatever feelings are left. Basically out of sight, it turns into out of mind which equals feelings go away. THAT is why NC is so important for you. What you had with the OW was exciting, a real rush, something different than what you have with your wife, so now that it's over, you're missing that, missing how she made you feel. It take some time to get over that, again, which is why NC is soo important. The OW knows what's what, and fact is, she knows the A is over and knows you are trying to work on your marriage, so everytime she contacts you, it's for her selfish reasons, she's missing you, missing how you made her feel. You have to fight those attempts of hers, otherwise you'll have another roll in the hay for the 5th time after D-Day, and that is NOT fair to your wife, your marriage and all that you're trying to fix. Definately stick with counselling, open up and tell your therapist everything that you've said here, the more honest you are, the more you can work through it all and come out a better stronger person. Anyway, I hope you talk to your wife, spend time with her and focus on HER instead of the OW.
whichwayisup Posted November 7, 2007 Posted November 7, 2007 I've told her that I wont leave my wife and kids, that I cant see a future without them there 100% of the time. But I guess I've not been very 'forceful' about it. I'm going to pay if I dont do something now. Saying it and then having another 4 times after D-Day with your OW is NOT letting her know that you're serious. Actions speak louder than words and if you want the OW to respect your choice and leave you alone you need to be tougher and tell her it is OVER and then stick to it. Do not flirt with her, talk to her, think about her, nothing. Just go on about your day.
Author Triarge Posted November 7, 2007 Author Posted November 7, 2007 Thanks guys for your replies.. I cant reply right now as at work but I'll post tommorrow when I get chance. I need to think about what you have said. Bye for now LS'ers.. ^^^ Thats love shacker's not loosers lol
smartgirl Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Thanks for your replies.. this is really helping me. I'm actually having to search deep in order to think about things that have been said in order to reply. Firstly, in reply to SOG. I dont beleive I did lead her on. I never made any promises that I was ever going to leave my W. I certainly discourage her from leaving her H and told her then that we should finish and both work on our M. But your right. My actions since D-Day dont back up my convictions very well. I dont blame the OW for what she is doing. She doesnt have anything to loose and I do believe she loves me. There were alot of feelings involved at the time and its those that resurface when I see her. I know that everyone is right.. its going to be really hard to follow through unless I can leave my job and take that temptatoin out of my path. LJ.. I have thought about individual councelling. I just dont know how to go about that without raising alarm bells for my wife. She is so much better now and I dont want to bring things crashing down again. I could do it in secret but I dont like the thought of more lies and sneaking around. LOTU.. This has had me thinking all night. I do know its the right thing to do - yes. I do love my wife. I have (???) feelings for the OW. 100% committed?? I'm 80% sure I'm 100% commited if that makes sense. All I know is that I have chosen a path and intend to avoid the 'other' one. Smartgirl.. I'm sorry you have had to go through this yourself. It must make you sick talking to people like me but I appreciate your advice. I found alot of truth in what you said. I do think she wants to win. I dont think she cares about the fallout either to me, my kids or my wife. She's said loads of times that she has nothing to loose and when shes sent a mail it goes like "I shouldnt be mailing you I know but.." It's my own fault also.. When she sends those mails I dont reply saying "Why you sending me this? STOP!". All I do is tell her how I'm finding it hard also (hope) but I wont cheat anymore and I'm trying (hope) to work on my marriage. I'm leaving her with that tiny bit of hope to cling to. Maybe I dont subconciously want to "burn that last bridge".. just in case it all goes wrong somewhere. Bod' It isn't that you make me sick, I really do understand the underlying insecurities, wants, desires and weaknesses that can allow a person to become vulnerable to an affair. The more convenient the circumstances are, ie working together, and the more persistent the OP is, the longer it can go on. Trust me, convenience is a big factor in how long some of these things go on. But as I say, you don't make me sick. You do make me sad. One of the most important things is not to let this drag out. If it is over, make sure it stays over. Don't be vague, be clear and put your foot down if she won't stop. Look at it this way, if you care for her then don't keep letting her think the door is still open if you really don't want it to be. But given the way she has behaved these past 6 weeks, should you really be even thinking about her as a serious mate? She is trying to screw with you and by proxy, your wife. Not very nice. Your inner conflict is likely more obvious to your wife than you think. I was very aware that my H wasn't all the way back in the marriage. He was physically, but mentally he was still dealing with breaking up with her - the guilt, the feelings, all of it. I didn't know for many months that she worked with him. Once I found out, it was all too clear. The pain from that long drawn out post-d-day period is the part I have the most trouble forgiving. And you should beware of that. It takes away all the comfort that I could have derived from him ending things with her and recommiting to me. It made it seem like he really wasn't sure that he wanted me, that wanting me wasn't enough, that he was staying for "the package," that he was ambivalent. It has left me with doubts that still linger. I could forgive the affair. But once I knew, I couldn't forgive "the untangling." For the sake of all the innocent people in this, and even yourself, tell this woman to stop contacting you or bringing up the affair in anyway. Be clear. Leave no doubt. Don't answer emails or calls. Tell her to stop and mean it. People are weak. That's why NC is usually the only way.
Author Triarge Posted November 8, 2007 Author Posted November 8, 2007 LJ, I like the Two Wolves story too... I know which wolf I need to be feeding its just the other one keeps coming along trying to steal my chickens! These worries that you have that "something is missing" may very well be groundless, a product of your stinkin' thinker leading you off track so you can rationalize your urge to reengage in the affair. I had nights of wakefullness 'before' the affair where I felt my life ticking away and wondered why I wasnt as happy as I felt I should be. They stopped during the affair (and so far havnt returned). I dont know if thats because a need was suddenly being met or if my life suddenly had so much drama in it. OTOH, there may very well be a deficit within the primary relationship or even within YOU. Thats the big question isnt it. The OW knows what's what, and fact is, she knows the A is over and knows you are trying to work on your marriage, so everytime she contacts you, it's for her selfish reasons, she's missing you, missing how you made her feel. You have to fight those attempts of hers, otherwise you'll have another roll in the hay for the 5th time after D-Day, and that is NOT fair to your wife, your marriage and all that you're trying to fix. It wont happen again. I cant let it. I've made that promise. Let me explain. Although I say I got back with her. It wasnt like the full blown affair was prior to d-day. I never saw her outside working hours and there was no intercourse. I'm not justifying it, it was still a betrayal but the relationship deteriorated for me into something that carried so little reward and so much risk. It was a fake relationship; a 5 hour or less a week relationship. I refused to see her at the weekends, or nights as I did previously. I couldnt understand why she wanted to be with me under such miserable circumstances. She told me she'd sooner be 'with me' like this rather than 'without me'. I doesnt add up. She's attractive, cleaver, ambitious, funny. I told her to go find some other guy. One that didnt have a history of cheating and no baggage. But she always told me that she'd never find anyone else like me, nor had she ever been with anyone like me. All fuel for the ego I know. Smartgirl.. Your inner conflict is likely more obvious to your wife than you think. I was very aware that my H wasn't all the way back in the marriage. He was physically, but mentally he was still dealing with breaking up with her - the guilt, the feelings, all of it. I didn't know for many months that she worked with him. Once I found out, it was all too clear. I dont want my wife to go through the same. I want her to be from this point on 100% sure that I'm 100% sure. I dont know how you women do it but she can read my every mood. I cant hide a thing from her. She knows when somethings bothering me even when I think I can hide it. I have to leave this place. The only problem is that I have to work 3 months notice due to my role. So it will be however long it takes to get an alternative job + 3 months. That could be up to a while! So I have to face her and be here 'without' the NC for what could be along time. I think I need to follows LJ's first post on the "burning bridges" plan, however uncomfortable it may make me feel. My problem is that I'm a people pleaser so it will be hard for me to play the bad guy. I guess I dont have a choice..
Ladyjane14 Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 I know which wolf I need to be feeding its just the other one keeps coming along trying to steal my chickens! Too funny! You caught me between sips though and I had to clean the coffee off my monitor! But seriously... you're EXACTLY right. Casual contact 'steals your chickens'. It provides drama and an unwanted "fix" for the Love Addiction. I had nights of wakefullness 'before' the affair where I felt my life ticking away and wondered why I wasnt as happy as I felt I should be. They stopped during the affair (and so far havnt returned). I dont know if thats because a need was suddenly being met or if my life suddenly had so much drama in it. Sometimes this is a response to underlying anxiety, where a guy might worry that he's not up to the task at hand in terms of caring for his burgeoning family, or that his life isn't turning out the way he had dreamed it would, or any number of other subconscious worries. I couldnt understand why she wanted to be with me under such miserable circumstances. She told me she'd sooner be 'with me' like this rather than 'without me'. I doesnt add up. She's attractive, cleaver, ambitious, funny. I told her to go find some other guy. One that didnt have a history of cheating and no baggage. But she always told me that she'd never find anyone else like me, nor had she ever been with anyone like me. All fuel for the ego I know. Exactly right again. Whether it's poor self-esteem or what-have-you, she's 'needy'. A good partner doesn't NEED you... she WANTS you. She's already self-fruitful in terms of completion. She's able to select happiness, keep herself busy and moving forward, and while it's true that she has "needs" within the relationship, these needs are about 'being in a relationship' rather than being internally unfulfilled. IOW, if you're bound to one another by commitment and partnership, you need your mate to meet you half-way on that in order to fulfill the needs of partnership. But if you're unbound by a committed relationship... you're self-reliant for your own contentment. It's the relationship itself which is needy, not the person in it. The person in it is complete and whole unto himself/herself. It's kind of like having THREE entities within the marriage... the two individuals, each functional and complete, and the couple entity, all existing on the same plane and equal. In order to be happy and healthy, each needs care and feeding, so energy must be expended in a way that prioritizes all three of these entities and brings out the best in them. Keeping your individuality intact is an important part of the marriage, both for you and for her. It makes you well-rounded, interesting people, who haven't "lost" themselves within the relationship. Equally important is developing the couple entity, so that it's stable and fulfilling as well. When it all comes together, you end up with a strong "Us" that doesn't conflict with individuality but rather... enhances it. I dont know how you women do it but she can read my every mood. I cant hide a thing from her. She knows when somethings bothering me even when I think I can hide it. As much as 90% of communications are nonverbal. And women process this emotional data faster than men do. If you type into your browser, "big boys don't cry, reader's digest", and read the article you find there, it explains how the pathways of the male and female brain are arranged just a bit differently, so that women have faster access to emotional information. It's a pretty good article all around, and I think right now it might be a thought provoking one for you... maybe even answer some questions about why a guy might sometimes have a hard time interpreting his feelings. My problem is that I'm a people pleaser so it will be hard for me to play the bad guy. I guess I dont have a choice.. Learning to face conflict is a healthy thing for a guy to do. It's going to serve you well in EVERY aspect of your life. I feel ya... it's my worst thing. But in resolving the problems of my own relationship, I've learned that there are some things worth fighting for, particularly when the alternative is harboring resentment or allowing encroachment on the intimacy of the marriage. This "encroachment" isn't limited to overtly threatening people like a former lover. It includes family members, friends, your boss, or anybody else who poaches on your intimacy in a way that demands that you prioritize them ahead of your partner. Anyway, as far as dealing with the OW is concerned... you don't have to change 'who you are' at your core in order to slap a hand back when it's invading your space. And you're not obliged to share 'who you are' in an intimate way with anybody you don't choose, regardless of whether you made that choice in the past. At the end of the day, what other people think of you is less important than what YOU think of you. Let her think what she pleases. You've already explained your position to the best of your ability... probably many times. Your job is done on that score. Now, it's time to be true to yourself, your goals, and your family. You're not EASY MEAT to be poached, right? People can't just walk right up and carry you off in a bag, can they? So don't be afraid to stand on that. The fact that you made a mistake doesn't mean you no longer have rights. IOW, you may have allowed intimacy before, but just like everybody else on the planet, you have a right to disallow it too. A former infidelity doesn't strip you of your right to set boundaries with people.
Ladyjane14 Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Have you read The Five Love Languages by Chapman yet? If not, maybe in order to strengthen the marital relationship, you and your wife might give it a try. No one book is the 'be-all-and-end-all" on marital advice. But it's a fairly well-rounded, easy read, which might get you focused on one another's ENs (emotional needs) within the relationship. The basic premise is that people respond to loving action in different ways, and that it's best to show your love for your partner in ways that allow them to feel and recognize it. If possible, read it together, maybe a few pages aloud each night... IN BED. It'll get you talking, and hopefully lead to some nonverbal forms of communication as well.
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