Which Is It????

[Lizzie60]

If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'.

 

Just wanted to point out the contradiction - read several recent threads and couldn't help but notice this! I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification.

 

I think that the W gets that kind of message because, in many cases, she's been married for a long time, have children, a nice comfortable financially secured life... blablabla... She has a lot to lose.

 

On the other hand, the OW is, in many cases, just the 'other woman' who is on 'stand by', or is just there for the 'excitement'.

 

It's not always the cases, but what I find though, is that, both women WANT to give this 'cheater' all the chances in the world... THEY just don't want to lose HIM.

 

and HE knows that... The Almighty MM has the best of both worlds... whether we like it or not...

 

It's not always so easy to divorce, especially for the kids (most cases). Sometimes, He rather lives with someone he doesn't 'love' anymore to keep the kids and the nice comfortable life..and to keep his OW on the side... and see what happens...

 

A lot of those 'cheaters' will leave their wife ONLY when they're busted and thrown out... otherwise they don't leave.

 

I am sure that in many cases, the MM is very much in love with the OW but for his kids' sake won't leave.

 

It sure isn't easy for anyone...

[reboot]

I'm interested in knowing from you as well as from Reboot if you ever wondered about the marrying young question. People often say they "would never cheat" or "would never tolerate a MM persuing them". I was once like these people, yet I am where I am today. I know my MM meant to keep his promise of fidelity and I mine when I married. Can either of you accept that people change and discover who they are and what they really want later in life? I know what our romantic society believes, but in all honesty, do you really expect us to keep a promise made if we were so young when we made it? Especially after our spouses turned into the people they did and are not willing to improve with counceling or other strategies?

If your spouse turns into someone you can no longer be with, and is unwilling to get help to change that, then you have every right to DIVORCE them.

 

I can't agree with cheating on them.

 

Yes I expect people to keep their promises to me. But a divorce would end that obligation.

 

What do you consider too young to be held to a promise? My wife was 24 when we got married. Was she too young to have any idea what she wanted in life?

 

Athough I assume you're talking about someone much younger than that.

 

I personally think people shouldn't be allowed to marry until they're 30.

[Ladyjane14]

I'm interested in knowing from you as well as from Reboot if you ever wondered about the marrying young question. People often say they "would never cheat" or "would never tolerate a MM persuing them". I was once like these people, yet I am where I am today. I know my MM meant to keep his promise of fidelity and I mine when I married. Can either of you accept that people change and discover who they are and what they really want later in life? I know what our romantic society believes, but in all honesty, do you really expect us to keep a promise made if we were so young when we made it? Especially after our spouses turned into the people they did and are not willing to improve with counceling or other strategies?

 

If you made a promise in error as a youth... shouldn't you rectify your mistake when you attain adulthood rather than compound it?

 

I cheated on every guy I was ever with prior to the age of 21.

And hey, most of them cheated too. But they were young and foolish just like I was. Once I reached adulthood though, I took responsibility for whatever words came out of my mouth. If I made a promise, it was up to me to either keep it or to break my oath. Whatever choice I make is the one I have to face the mirror with each day. Because in the end, it's not important what other people think about me... it's important what I think. And at my core, cheating on my given word ultimately cheats ME. So I don't do it.

 

So yeah, to answer your question... I made mistakes in youth. But when I grew up, I took charge of my choices.

[KATANYA]

Of course people will give different advice to the OW than they will to the wife, they are two completely different relationships, a marriage is nothing like a (mostly) meaningless affair.

 

True, two different relationships with THE SAME man being at the core of both. The Same man making promises to two women, making lives with two women, building hopes with two women......and TWO women who both love and believe him!

 

 

If the OW gives up on the relationship after d-day, what's she giving up? Nothing. Candestine meetings and secret sex does not a relationship make. It's a fantasy, nothing real about it.

 

 

Not all A's are just clandestine meetings and sex.....I do agree that many MM base the A in a fantasy mindset and not reality but they can also convince OW that what they are promising and saying is very real. That is how they get the OW to stay and fight for the relationship.

 

On the other hand, if a wife who has been married and has shared a REAL life with her husband, has children, assets, etc., gives up on the marriage she's basically giving up her life as she knows it.

 

But isn't the life as she 'knows it' only a charade anyway since the person she shares that life with is NOT AT ALL the person she thought he was?

 

It's not rocket science, it's pretty easy to give up a relationship that never really was.

 

Guess Again! If that was the case, go back to your last statement that W can't give up 'life as she knows it". It too is a relationship that, in many ways, never really was!

 

When I found out my husband cheated I threw him out, told him to go be with the OW, to marry her, to get away from me. I thought he was going to have a heart attack, he said he NEVER wanted to be with her, and couldn't imagine his life without me. The affair meant nothing, it was a mistake, he couldn't conceive of divorcing me and marrying her. The thought never entered his mind. It was just a big mistake, so it's pretty easy to fix that kind of mistake.

 

I would not expect any MM to tell the BS that he loved his OW, wanted to be with her and that he never felt it was a mistake. I would expect, however, that a BS would want to find the 'root' of the issue - the OP, IMO, is many times an outlet for a problem but not the 'problem' itself.

 

Of course the marriage doesn't stand a chance if the WS is still with the OP...no BS in their right mind would put up with sharing their spouse, unlike the OP, who doesn't mind a bit.

 

Many times, however, we see that the MM will give the A a break until the 'dust settles' and then start it up again or will leave OW with just enough hope that she cannot move on.....and I do believe there are BS out there that would and do knowingly share their spouse because they know he has repeatedly had As or flings and they continue to 'preserve the marriage' which gives MM the green light to keep doing what he does.

[KATANYA]

It's not always the cases, but what I find though, is that, both women WANT to give this 'cheater' all the chances in the world... THEY just don't want to lose HIM.

 

and HE knows that... The Almighty MM has the best of both worlds... whether we like it or not...

 

 

Well said, Lizzie!

 

 

 

[White Flower]

If your spouse turns into someone you can no longer be with, and is unwilling to get help to change that, then you have every right to DIVORCE them.

 

I can't agree with cheating on them.

 

Yes I expect people to keep their promises to me. But a divorce would end that obligation.

 

What do you consider too young to be held to a promise? My wife was 24 when we got married. Was she too young to have any idea what she wanted in life?

 

Athough I assume you're talking about someone much younger than that.

 

I personally think people shouldn't be allowed to marry until they're 30.

Thanks for answering my question, Reboot. I was 21 when I married, and quite mature for my age. I did what so many women (of all ages) do and that is to marry a man for his potential. (Mars and Venus books). I always believed he could grow and mature into a wonderful man. He just never quite made it there. Yet, I kept growing and maturing. If someone could have told me that he would always be short-tempered, thoughtless, judgmental, crude, and the list goes on, then I would not have made vows to him. I really thought he would grow up. Yes, 30 would have been a better age for me, too.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

..and I do believe there are BS out there that would and do knowingly share their spouse because they know he has repeatedly had As or flings and they continue to 'preserve the marriage' which gives MM the green light to keep doing what he does.

 

Nope...I don't believe it, and if there is a BS who knows her husband is screwing around? Then she's playing with the OW as much as he is, and she's (the OW) is just a pawn in their sick match.

 

Maybe she is, maybe the wife is using her as much as the MM is. Something to think about for sure. Now that I think about it....

[White Flower]

Originally posted by Ladyjane14

If you made a promise in error as a youth... shouldn't you rectify your mistake when you attain adulthood rather than compound it?

 

I cheated on every guy I was ever with prior to the age of 21.

And hey, most of them cheated too. But they were young and foolish just like I was. Once I reached adulthood though, I took responsibility for whatever words came out of my mouth. If I made a promise, it was up to me to either keep it or to break my oath. Whatever choice I make is the one I have to face the mirror with each day. Because in the end, it's not important what other people think about me... it's important what I think. And at my core, cheating on my given word ultimately cheats ME. So I don't do it.

 

So yeah, to answer your question... I made mistakes in youth. But when I grew up, I took charge of my choices.

 

I used to speak and think just like you, Ladyjane. And I suppose if I had stopped an A two weeks short of it happening I would be out there defending the honor of vow-making no matter the age if I still loved my H. You need to believe in what you believe in. You say your H is basically GOOD and so you'll keep him. I wonder, if you were in my exact situation, how would you handle it? You simply cannot answer because you are not in it. When someone shows you their true colors after the wedding, you find that your beliefs and sometimes even your standards change. It may not take 10 or even 20 years, but it often does happen.

 

Reboot was right; get a divorce first, then do what you want. I tried; he won't go. Came close to ending the A, too. Kinda stuck in limbo for now.

 

Sorry to OP if I got off topic.

[reboot]

Thanks for answering my question, Reboot. I was 21 when I married, and quite mature for my age. I did what so many women (of all ages) do and that is to marry a man for his potential. (Mars and Venus books). I always believed he could grow and mature into a wonderful man. He just never quite made it there. Yet, I kept growing and maturing. If someone could have told me that he would always be short-tempered, thoughtless, judgmental, crude, and the list goes on, then I would not have made vows to him. I really thought he would grow up. Yes, 30 would have been a better age for me, too.

I don't think there is just one right person out there for us, but I do think there are people out there much more right for us than others would be. And I think sometimes, for whatever reason, people pick the wrong one. I have seen couples that I thought had no business being married.

 

I'm a big believer in trying to hold a marriage together if it's at all possible, especially if there are children. But I don't think anyone should be miserable for the rest of their life.

 

I don't believe there's such a thing as happily ever after, but happy most of the time is not too much to ask for. And both people at least working on it in between those times. If you can't have that, it's time to look elsewhere.

[frannie]

Of course people will give different advice to the OW than they will to the wife, they are two completely different relationships, a marriage is nothing like a (mostly) meaningless affair.

 

Yes, of course, but the idea that the man himself is presented in completely different lights to those two different women is what is being discussed.

 

So the OP is told he's a worthless cheater, while the BS is encouraged to work the 180 and get him coming back home again... the SAME man..?? Worthless cheater OR worthy husband..? hmmm.

[GreenEyedLady]

So the OP is told he's a worthless cheater, while the BS is encouraged to work the 180 and get him coming back home again... the SAME man..?? Worthless cheater OR worthy husband..? hmmm.

 

Or maybe he's just a checkbook to her?

[Impudent Oyster]

Yes, of course, but the idea that the man himself is presented in completely different lights to those two different women is what is being discussed.

 

So the OP is told he's a worthless cheater, while the BS is encouraged to work the 180 and get him coming back home again... the SAME man..?? Worthless cheater OR worthy husband..? hmmm.

 

Exactly, the MM is wothless to the OP because he has no intention of leaving his marriage, if he did, he would've left already.

 

The very fact that the MM is still married indicates that's exactly where he wants to be...married to his wife. His having a fling with an OW means just that, he wants an extramarital affair, some strange, something on the side, an ego boast, some excitement. He's not looking to end his marriage and to replace his wife, if he were, he wouldn't be seeing a woman content to be a little something on the side who will keep his secret.

 

If the MM didn't want desperately to stay with his wife, why would he go through all the trouble of keeping his affair such a secret? Why is it that exposure usually signals the end of the affair?

 

And FWIW, most BS's don't "work the 180", it comes naturally. BS's don't want a man who is screwing someone else, they will throw him out and only accept him back if he can prove that he's ended the affair and is very remorseful.

 

Why should a woman completely change her life and end her marriage because her husband made a stupid mistake?

 

The OW has nothing to lose, because there is nothing there...just some chemistry and a lot of empty promises.

[Impudent Oyster]

Or maybe he's just a checkbook to her?

 

Nope, I don't think so. See there's this thing called marital assets, spousal maintainance and child support, so if a wife only keeps the lying cheat around for money, then it would be a whole lot easier if she threw him out and still got the money without having to put up with his BS.

 

I have a neighbor who did just that, she's happily free of the jerk while living a life of leisure thanks to the divorce settlement. Every time I see her she's got a big smile on her face.

[Meaplus3]

If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'.

 

Just wanted to point out the contradiction - read several recent threads and couldn't help but notice this! I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification.

 

 

Very good point!! I have noticed the same thing.

[TogetherForever]

IMO, the marriage should be the relationship that is salvaged first ahead of an affair.

TF

[frannie]

Exactly, the MM is wothless to the OP because he has no intention of leaving his marriage, if he did, he would've left already.

 

The very fact that the MM is still married indicates that's exactly where he wants to be...married to his wife. His having a fling with an OW means just that, he wants an extramarital affair, some strange, something on the side, an ego boast, some excitement. He's not looking to end his marriage and to replace his wife, if he were, he wouldn't be seeing a woman content to be a little something on the side who will keep his secret.

 

But we're not only talking about MM who stay married, but any man who has cheated on his W. So we can take out the idea that he just wants a fling, when he's divorced. This is the crux of the matter.

 

The phrase "if he cheated on her he'll cheat on you" means that it is assumed that this same man would cheat on his ex-OW even if she becomes the W.

 

While it is not assumed that in staying with the WS, the BS will necessarily encounter the same problem down the line.

 

There is the point. That a cheater is assumed to "always be a cheater" when advising an OW, but not when advising a BS.

[Impudent Oyster]

But we're not only talking about MM who stay married, but any man who has cheated on his W. So we can take out the idea that he just wants a fling, when he's divorced. This is the crux of the matter.

 

The phrase "if he cheated on her he'll cheat on you" means that it is assumed that this same man would cheat on his ex-OW even if she becomes the W.

.

 

Oh, gotcha. Well I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory. The rare MM who actually does leave his wife and marries the OW? Yes, I think he does stand a greater chance of cheating again, but I do think the OW should give him a chance, afterall, look at what he gave up to be with her. It's obvious that this wasn't just a fling.

[whichwayisup]

There is the point. That a cheater is assumed to "always be a cheater" when advising an OW, but not when advising a BS.

 

Because he has the history with the BS and a life built. The start of their relationship was based on love and honesty which led to marriage, whereas the OW and MM relationship started with an affair, with betrayal, lies, sneaking around. Not a good way to start off a long lasting relationship. (If MM leaves his wife for OW)

[GreenEyedLady]

Nope, I don't think so. See there's this thing called marital assets, spousal maintainance and child support, so if a wife only keeps the lying cheat around for money, then it would be a whole lot easier if she threw him out and still got the money without having to put up with his BS.

 

I have a neighbor who did just that, she's happily free of the jerk while living a life of leisure thanks to the divorce settlement. Every time I see her she's got a big smile on her face.

 

I think that's rather funny, being divorced myself...

 

I am even the one who has to pay alimony...And no I'm not the one who cheated...

 

The reality is that unless you are wealthy in the first place, you aren't going to make alot of money in a D...And a lot women have to get a job...

 

Alimony and child support are all done according to formula now, honey...

[TogetherForever]

I think that's rather funny, being divorced myself...

 

I am even the one who has to pay alimony...And no I'm not the one who cheated...

 

The reality is that unless you are wealthy in the first place, you aren't going to make alot of money in a D...And a lot women have to get a job...

 

Alimony and child support are all done according to formula now, honey...

 

 

I'm glad you posted this^ Gel. Thanks!!

Some have said that when my sweetheart decides to divorce his wife, she's gonna make out very well. Making me suffer.

I beg to digger on that one:laugh:.

TF

[GreenEyedLady]

I'm glad you posted this^ Gel. Thanks!!

Some have said that when my sweetheart decides to divorce his wife, she's gonna make out very well. Making me suffer.

I beg to digger on that one:laugh:.

TF

 

Yeah, that's usually not the case in a D...And it's all according to a formula and how long they're married...Usually if you're married over ten years, you can get alimony for life or until the partner remarries...Otherwise it's half the amount of time you were married...

 

The actual truth is that no one makes out well in a D...Everyone loses something...

 

But then you also gain things too...I got to be myself again...And I'm happy now, because I married the wrong person and found the right one....

[Impudent Oyster]

I think that's rather funny, being divorced myself...

 

I am even the one who has to pay alimony...And no I'm not the one who cheated...

 

The reality is that unless you are wealthy in the first place, you aren't going to make alot of money in a D...And a lot women have to get a job...

 

Alimony and child support are all done according to formula now, honey...

 

Oh gee, ya think? Don't you think I know that? I know exactly what the formula is in my state, and my husband is damn lucky that I love him, otherwise, he would be supporting me in the lifestyle to which I've become accustomed, and it isn't cheap!

[GreenEyedLady]

Oh gee, ya think? Don't you think I know that? I know exactly what the formula is in my state, and my husband is damn lucky that I love him, otherwise, he would be supporting me in the lifestyle to which I've become accustomed, and it isn't cheap!

 

Yeah, you're lawyer will tell you everything you want to hear and when it comes down to it, it's not what they make it out to be...But I think that would be to his advantage...

[frannie]

Because he has the history with the BS and a life built. The start of their relationship was based on love and honesty which led to marriage, whereas the OW and MM relationship started with an affair, with betrayal, lies, sneaking around. Not a good way to start off a long lasting relationship. (If MM leaves his wife for OW)

 

I'm sorry, WWIU but I just don't see the reasoning here.

 

I see your point in that one would want to preserve a marriage. That's been given as a reason for the differing advise given to OW and BS. And of course, that's quite understandable.

 

But the idea that a relationship with someone you started off cheating WITH is doomed to failure, because one (or perhaps both) of the individuals were cheating on someone else..? No, I don't get it. There's no logic there for me.

 

The only way that would make sense is if the individual(s) were serial cheaters who could never have a relationship without cheating. And we just cannot assume that about every cheater.

 

A person may cheat in one relationship, and not in another.

 

In fact, when you get down to it, the only person who we can be sure will be cheated on is the one who HAS been cheated on, i.e. the BS.

 

Now, do you believe that "he's cheated on you once, he'll cheat on you again?" because surely, if you believe that of cheaters, then you have to believe that in all cases..? Including a marriage..? Anything else looks to me like twisted thinking and special pleading, but I'd be interested to hear another angle on it, without cliches being dragged in.

 

"A relationship begun on lies and cheating..." is nothing more than a cliche and a truism. Where is the logic? Where are the examples to prove this and disprove the idea that a relationship begun with one (or both) parties cheating on an ex-partner are in fact as likely as any other to succeed or fail.

 

There are lots of posters on here who can support that fact, both from personal experience in their own relationships, from friends, and from parents. So... it looks like it's not true that "a relationship begun in lies and cheating" will inevitably fail.

[Impudent Oyster]

Yeah, you're lawyer will tell you everything you want to hear and when it comes down to it, it's not what they make it out to be...But I think that would be to his advantage...

 

"My lawyer" is my brother who just happens to be one of the top matrimonial attorneys in the country, so trust me, I know exactly what I'd end up with.