Which Is It????

[KATANYA]

Because people tend to see marriage as an investment entered into honestly, and the OW/MM relationship as a disposable divestment that was entered into dishonestly. People will think that if a man enters into something honestly, he will tend back toward that to reconcile and fix things, since he started out that way. If a man enters into a relationship dishonestly, he will always trend toward that way, because he got away with it from the beginning. That's the general idea, I guess.

 

Now that observation makes sense to me! Thanks for the input LB.

[KATANYA]

First of all, I've made my decisions based on what I believed and what I felt I needed to do. I've never asked for the advice or opinion of anyone here, or anywhere else.

 

Reboot I don't think I know your situation but I will go back and read it. These questions are not directed at ANYONE in particular and of course people do 'what is best for them'.....that is the only way to be able to live with our decisions.

 

That being said, people DO come here looking for advice. And when they ask for it, they are given it. And it often varies wildly. It's up to the person seeking answers to determine which advice works best for them. I find it silly that people on here are always bitching and moaning about who gives what advice and why. It's pretty obvious people give advice based on their own beliefs and values. And we don't all have to share those things.

 

That's exactly my point.....our beliefs and values on the same situation differ depending on WHO we are directing our response to. Of course we don't all share one belief or value else there would be no need to have a discussion forum to begin with,

 

 

If you don't like a particular set of advice, don't follow it. If you don't like a particular persons posts, don't read them. We are all valuable humans. We all make the world go round. We all have something to contribute. We don't have to agree on everything, but we can all respect each other.

 

I actually don't think there are anyone's posts that have made me want to NOT read them again. And I share your belief that ALL people have value. I have more respect for both BS and OW daily since joining this site than I EVER had before........its the MM and the double standards he can live by and with and confusion over why we seem to build him up to one yet cut him down to another that I am confused over.

[frannie]

Guys, guys, guys.

 

What internet forum have you been reading? Are we all still talking about LS here? I can't tell you how many BS I have seen that were told to "dump their sorry ass". I have myself been told that here.

 

And advising the OW NOT to tell the wife? What thread was this? I've seen plenty of people advise OW to tell the wife. Ask imstunned, she was told to tell the wife and wouldn't.

 

Now I agree that when advice is given that involves "try to work things out", it's given to BS more than OW, but it's not nearly as black and white as everyone is making out. Most of us give advice based on our own unique perspectives. I think this just says there are more people here that believe in marriage than don't.

 

I've been reading LS.. for over 2 years now. You may be a 'reincarnation' of an older poster, but your profile says you've been here 2 months..?

 

Yes, OW are advised, very strongly NOT to tell the BS.

[reboot]

I've been reading LS.. for over 2 years now. You may be a 'reincarnation' of an older poster, but your profile says you've been here 2 months..?

 

Yes, OW are advised, very strongly NOT to tell the BS.

I've been a member for 2 months, I've been reading for a lot longer than that.

 

I never said OW are always told to tell W. I don't know, maybe it's rare that they're told that. I do know I remember people telling OW to tell the wife quite a few times. So it does happen. But I don't feel strongly enough about it to go try to find any of those posts.

 

I think they should tell the W personally. Cheaters should be forced to make a decision.

[Ladyjane14]

Married men are often living out a "James Bond" type fantasy with their OW, a fantasy which feels very REAL to them when they're caught up in it.

(i.e. How many times have we seen an OW posting whose MM led her down the garden path regarding a future with children of her own, only to be offered abortion money once she became pregnant?)

 

The marriage and current family ARE the reality of the situation. It's the affair which is comprised of avoidance and fantasy. That said, I don't believe the MM usually has a conscious awareness of it. Sure, his actions are done with deliberation, but I don't believe the motives for those actions are quite as clear to him.

 

Married men are often very confused individuals who have sought outside their primary relationship for a REASON. Let's face it, divorce is commonplace. There are reasons why he stays, and these reasons are NOT shared in their entirety with the OW. Yeah, divorce is expensive. And yeah, he wouldn't be seeing his kids everyday. These are easy excuses, with enough elements of truth to them that the OW buys in hook, line, and sinker.

 

But they aren't really what keeps the guy at home. MM go outside the marriage, not in response to the betrayed wife, but rather because they can't effectively problem-solve within the relationship. And often enough... the main problem is WITHIN the MM himself.

 

For example, a guy who's just starting out with a young family and is scared spitless of the responsibilities entailed, might not associate his anxiety with an internal cause. This kind of guy is looking for the emergency exit, and it has little if anything to do with the partner he chose to marry. His subconscious fears are at the root of it, and even though he can't really identify WHY he's reluctant to leave, and despite how caught up he is in the addiction of the affair, he KNOWS on some level that he's not thinking clearly.

 

Likewise, the MLC guys... These guys are affixing a band-aid on what is essentially a physiological imbalance coupled with the prerequisite emotional side-effects.

 

Then there are the guys who have a legitimate problem with their wife, those who are married to a person who has introduced fatal flaws to the relationship. These are conflict-avoiders who have elected to stick their head in the sand, rather than DEAL with their situation... a situation which will NOT resolve itself of it's own accord.

 

MM are, by and large, troubled people. And when they don't effectively identify and address those "troubles", they aren't fit for true partnership in a new relationship anyway. They haven't resolved the defects of their current one. And since the marriage belongs to both husband and wife, THEY are the only two people who can resolve it one way or another. The wife is part of 'the solution'. The OW is part of 'the problem'.

 

So, a MM can usually find resolution in some form or fashion if he stays in the marriage, or... when the problem is completely external, he elects to leave it on his own. But he can't problem-solve effectively when he's indulging in a fantasy rather than dealing with the reality before him. The fantasy clouds his clarity of mind and impairs his cognitive abilities. He becomes so distracted, mired in paralysis, that he doesn't get much of anything accomplished.

 

It's important to remember that a married man is a good salesmen, not always for some Machiavellian reason known only to himself, but rather that he BELIEVES in his product. There is 'The Truth' and then there's 'The Truth of the Moment'. While fully engaged in the "James Bond" fantasy, and because his chemical balance is affected by the physiological components of Infatuation... the fantasy feels real to him. And he behaves accordingly. He make promises. He pursues and wheedles. Then... he goes home and those "truth of the moment" feelings fade into the background until he needs his next 'fix'.

 

There are REASONS why these guys married their wives in the first place, and REASONS why they cheat instead of leaving. The OW is working with an inferior partner when she's complicit to his adultery. Her best bet IMO, is to ALWAYS avoid MM-cheaters. Not because they're necessarily evil people, but rather because they're most often "troubled individuals" who haven't sorted their sh*t out, and worse... are compartmentalizing the important people in their life.

 

These are guys with emotionally empty pockets who have NOTHING of value to offer in partnership while they're already "in partnership" with another. At the bottom line, their motives are ALWAYS suspect.

[frannie]

I've been a member for 2 months, I've been reading for a lot longer than that.

 

I never said OW are always told to tell W. I don't know, maybe it's rare that they're told that. I do know I remember people telling OW to tell the wife quite a few times. So it does happen. But I don't feel strongly enough about it to go try to find any of those posts.

 

I think they should tell the W personally. Cheaters should be forced to make a decision.

 

Yeah I don't feel strongly enough to go hunting for the threads where an OW says she wants to tell the W.

 

I'm sure if you stick around long enough you'll see it all in time

[White Flower]

KATANYA not for the first time you make an excellent point on the subject of infidelity and advice.

 

I think the reason that the advice given in both cases (about the same man) is different is because of more or less what White Flower said: I wouldn't say it was 'romance' as such, but rather the desire to preserve a marriage, at (almost) all costs. Therefore, if a woman finds her man has been cheating, she's most likely to be advised to sort things out with 'the cheater', while an OW is advised to break things off because that very same 'cheater' is not worth the effort.

 

It's really about preserving marriage and nothing else.

 

 

So there you have it. In my opinion, these contradictions (the one you pointed out, and the one I indicated) exist because the primary concern with many giving out advice is to preserve a marriage, first and foremost.

 

I didn't say it was 'romance', rather, I said romantic. It's really about preserving marriage and nothing else because we as a society believe in happy endings.

 

Your other points are very good.

[Ladyjane14]

As far as telling the wife goes... I'm for THE TRUTH, as usual.

But I can't blame a wife for failing to believe an OW's story.

 

And... I think part of the controversy on the subject is in the hypocrisy of it all. An OW who gets involved because she's been lied to regarding a man's marital status is one thing. But for those who proceed despite their knowledge of it, well... that's another. THAT smacks of vengeance and sour grapes, and I think it's natural that people would advise an OW not to sink to that level. Not for the sake of 'shining a light' for a third party, but because it makes her into somebody she'd probably rather not be.

[Tomcat33]

Betrayed spouses advice OP to leave their partners beacause it is the only way that a BS knows they will get a fair chance to salvage the marriage. As long as the OP is in the picture, the marriage doesn't have a chance.

 

What I have learned is that sometimes the advice that is most useful is that of poeple who have been in a situation but who have also moved on, not people who are knee deep in a situation because they tend to advise with an agenda. But that's just me. Unless you are seeking advice from someone who is in a similar situation as yourself then I find it's ok to hear the advice of someone who is in similar shoes to yours. But for the opposing side of the coin it is best to seek out those that have moved on not ones that are still in it.

 

 

When I first came here I was given dodgy advice by some people on the opposite side of my situation that were also very much still dealing with their own demons and I discarded their contributions. I am glad I did and had enough vision to see past the words and on to the agenda because had I taken their words to heart it would have hindered my healing process.

[frannie]

I didn't say it was 'romance', rather, I said romantic. It's really about preserving marriage and nothing else because we as a society believe in happy endings.

 

Your other points are very good.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, the romantic notion of the 'happy ending' is one reason people would want see marriages preserved. I'm sure there are many others.

[frannie]

As far as telling the wife goes... I'm for THE TRUTH, as usual.

But I can't blame a wife for failing to believe an OW's story.

 

And... I think part of the controversy on the subject is in the hypocrisy of it all. An OW who gets involved because she's been lied to regarding a man's marital status is one thing. But for those who proceed despite their knowledge of it, well... that's another. THAT smacks of vengeance and sour grapes, and I think it's natural that people would advise an OW not to sink to that level. Not for the sake of 'shining a light' for a third party, but because it makes her into somebody she'd probably rather not be.

 

Not sure I mentioned hypocrisy. Perhaps it was someone else, though.

 

I just pointed out that the advice given to BS and OW about telling the W is completely different.

 

And yes, one of the reasons given is that it would be 'sour grapes' if the OW did it, while the BS would be operating from the pure motive of trying to save her marriage.

 

Either way the spouse of the AP gets to know that their H/W was cheating on them. You'd think that was either good OR bad either way, but apparently not.

[LexiB]

I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!!

 

 

Personally, that's exactly how I feel - I could never be w/ someone who thought so little about me and our relationship to cheat on me so I would be inclined to tell BS's here as much. I think the reason you might not see that advice given out to BS's as much as to the OP is b/c the BS's are in what is supposed to be a "committed relationship" and in many of these circumstances, there are also children involved. These reasons combined with any other factors tend to steer ppl towards rooting for the relationship.

 

Makes sense, but like I said, it's not my cup of tea

[reboot]

I think the reason you might not see that advice given out to BS's as much as to the OP is b/c the BS's are in what is supposed to be a "committed relationship" and in many of these circumstances, there are also children involved. These reasons combined with any other factors tend to steer ppl towards rooting for the relationship.

I think you just hit the nail squarely on the head. Right or wrong, that's probably the most correct answer to the original question.

[Ladyjane14]

Either way the spouse of the AP gets to know that their H/W was cheating on them. You'd think that was either good OR bad either way, but apparently not.

 

I think in those cases, perhaps people really ARE looking at what they believe to be in the best interest of the given poster, rather than the best interest of the marriage as a whole. IOW, if telling or not telling changes an OP's internal view of their own character in a negative way... it could be that people are genuinely trying to help her stay true to herself.

 

As far as "hypocrisy" goes... I think pinpointing it in one's self could be the litmus test in whether motives are pure or not. Afterall, wherever we go, there we are. We not only have to live with our actions, but we have to live with the REASONS for them.

[indianlover]

Married men are often living out a "James Bond" type fantasy with their OW, a fantasy which feels very REAL to them when they're caught up in it.

(i.e. How many times have we seen an OW posting whose MM led her down the garden path regarding a future with children of her own, only to be offered abortion money once she became pregnant?)

 

...

It's important to remember that a married man is a good salesmen, not always for some Machiavellian reason known only to himself, but rather that he BELIEVES in his product. There is 'The Truth' and then there's 'The Truth of the Moment'. While fully engaged in the "James Bond" fantasy, and because his chemical balance is affected by the physiological components of Infatuation... the fantasy feels real to him. And he behaves accordingly. He make promises. He pursues and wheedles. Then... he goes home and those "truth of the moment" feelings fade into the background until he needs his next 'fix'.

 

There are REASONS why these guys married their wives in the first place, and REASONS why they cheat instead of leaving. The OW is working with an inferior partner when she's complicit to his adultery. Her best bet IMO, is to ALWAYS avoid MM-cheaters. Not because they're necessarily evil people, but rather because they're most often "troubled individuals" who haven't sorted their sh*t out, and worse... are compartmentalizing the important people in their life.

 

These are guys with emotionally empty pockets who have NOTHING of value to offer in partnership while they're already "in partnership" with another. At the bottom line, their motives are ALWAYS suspect.

 

LJ you hit the nail on the head for me. My MM has not only outwordly spoken of this "James Bond" fantasy - but I think everything you've said holds true for him. He has enough money, kids are in college, etc for him to have virtually no reason to stay. And he has major flaws as a partner - he doesn't like to communicate his feelings about difficult situations - which doesn't bother me so much, but I'm sure a marriage would suffer.

 

Its hard to belittle someone you care about. But in the end these MM end up hurting a lot of people because, like you said, more often than not they don't have the balls to make a decision that breaks the cycle in their lives.

[frannie]

I think you just hit the nail squarely on the head. Right or wrong, that's probably the most correct answer to the original question.

 

Yes, children would certainly be another reason (in addition to the 'romantic notion of the happy ending') why people would want to preserve a marriage.

 

Essentially, it comes down to that: preserve the marriage.

[White Flower]

LJ,

I have seen many of your posts and I really liked this last one. You cover all the many shades of gray:) on this one.

[Impudent Oyster]

Of course people will give different advice to the OW than they will to the wife, they are two completely different relationships, a marriage is nothing like a (mostly) meaningless affair.

 

If the OW gives up on the relationship after d-day, what's she giving up? Nothing. Candestine meetings and secret sex does not a relationship make. It's a fantasy, nothing real about it.

 

On the other hand, if a wife who has been married and has shared a REAL life with her husband, has children, assets, etc., gives up on the marriage she's basically giving up her life as she knows it.

 

It's not rocket science, it's pretty easy to give up a relationship that never really was.

 

When I found out my husband cheated I threw him out, told him to go be with the OW, to marry her, to get away from me. I thought he was going to have a heart attack, he said he NEVER wanted to be with her, and couldn't imagine his life without me. The affair meant nothing, it was a mistake, he couldn't conceive of divorcing me and marrying her. The thought never entered his mind. It was just a big mistake, so it's pretty easy to fix that kind of mistake.

[Impudent Oyster]

Betrayed spouses advice OP to leave their partners beacause it is the only way that a BS knows they will get a fair chance to salvage the marriage. As long as the OP is in the picture, the marriage doesn't have a chance.

 

.

 

Of course the marriage doesn't stand a chance if the WS is still with the OP...no BS in their right mind would put up with sharing their spouse, unlike the OP, who doesn't mind a bit.

[OWoman]

I've been a member for 2 months, I've been reading for a lot longer than that.

 

I never said OW are always told to tell W. I don't know, maybe it's rare that they're told that. I do know I remember people telling OW to tell the wife quite a few times. So it does happen. But I don't feel strongly enough about it to go try to find any of those posts.

 

I think they should tell the W personally. Cheaters should be forced to make a decision.

 

My first post is an example of that, reboot - but you won't find it if you go hunting, because it's been deleted.

 

IIRC, most of those advising that W be told were advising ME to tell W - something I'm not going to do because I think it's MM's role to do that, not mine. Some had a clear subtext of hoping that, in the process, I'd be kicked to the curb, but others were genuinely concerned that the BW should be given the full information to be able to make an informed choice (often spelled out for her, should she not recognise her best interests "kick the lying scumbag out").

[OWoman]

Of course people will give different advice to the OW than they will to the wife, they are two completely different relationships, a marriage is nothing like a (mostly) meaningless affair.

 

If the OW gives up on the relationship after d-day, what's she giving up? Nothing. Candestine meetings and secret sex does not a relationship make. It's a fantasy, nothing real about it.

 

On the other hand, if a wife who has been married and has shared a REAL life with her husband, has children, assets, etc., gives up on the marriage she's basically giving up her life as she knows it.

 

It's not rocket science, it's pretty easy to give up a relationship that never really was.

 

Situations are all different.

 

My MM's W told him that their M no longer existed, that they'd become just room mates, that all they had in common was a home address (they have separate postal addresses, separate bank accounts, separate social lives, separate interests, neither goes near the other's family, they sleep in separate bedrooms, etc) apart from the kids. So even she recognised that. On the other hand, MM and I share social circles, professional interests and projects, I'm part of his family circle staying over with him visiting his parents or siblings, we share interests and activities and spend quality time together - openly as a couple, nothing "clandestine" even though colleagues, family and friends know he's still (currently) married to his W.

 

This is very different to previous As I've had with other MM where they've been nobody's business but our own - as were my Rs with SGs, too - all equally transient and disposable and irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things.

 

Some OW have children with their MM, some share assets like houses, and some have built lives together in very concrete ways, despite that the MM is still married on paper to some different woman, somewhere else.

 

It's hard to generalise on these things. Some people give advice based on the unique situation of each, others take a more principled stance based on their own beliefs or history. But either way, most posts get a range of replies with a range of advice from a range of POVs, and it's up to the OP to find what resonates for them.

[Ladyjane14]

LJ,

I have seen many of your posts and I really liked this last one. You cover all the many shades of gray:) on this one.

 

Thanks for saying that, WF. I'm not well-known around her for my "shades of gray" actually.

 

But... when you're on the other side of this thing, in a reconciled marriage, hindsight's 20/20. I actually understand why a guy would cheat better than I understand why an OW would cheat with him, when it's all said and done.

 

I caught my husband about two weeks shy of "making the transaction", but he's a genuinely GOOD man. He just had his head screwed on backwards, steeped in MLC issues, mild depression, chronic pain, and hopelessness due to feeling ineffectual within the primary relationship.

 

To be honest, if he'd have gone through with it... I'd have put him to the curb, never knowing that there could be a better resolution. In my case, it would've been a mistake. Because once all his issues were addressed, he was able to find his "happy place" again.

 

MM have to confront and surmount their problems within the marriage before they're worth a sh*t to anybody. That's why we point them back toward their spouse to either fix it or leave it on it's own merits. It's easy to demonize these guys when they fail to do that. (And frankly, some of them are such major a*holes in their actions it's hard to care if we're fair with them or not.) But people have reasons for their behaviors, and when we're intimately involved with someone, we ignore those "reasons" at our own emotional risk.

 

 

 

(Glad to assist, Indian. )

[OWoman]

MM have to confront and surmount their problems within the marriage before they're worth a sh*t to anybody.

 

Or within themselves. My MM tried MC with his W but his W bailed after a single session because she didn't like that the MC said W also needed to change her behaviour in the M to make it work, that W was acting abusively to MM and that they both needed to find new ways of interacting. (W wanted it all to be MM's fault, and refused to accept any responsibility.) MM went through with IC and has, through that, come to see the M more realistically, come to see himself more realistically and gained the strength and confidence to terminate the M and choose a R that's good for him.

[Ladyjane14]

Or within themselves. My MM tried MC with his W but his W bailed after a single session because she didn't like that the MC said W also needed to change her behaviour in the M to make it work, that W was acting abusively to MM and that they both needed to find new ways of interacting. (W wanted it all to be MM's fault, and refused to accept any responsibility.) MM went through with IC and has, through that, come to see the M more realistically, come to see himself more realistically and gained the strength and confidence to terminate the M and choose a R that's good for him.

 

So... his wife knows all about you and the two of them are currently separated with divorce pending?

If so, then it's not really an extramarital affair at this point.

 

If not... a guy who lays down like a rug can't really be surprised when people walk on him. If that was his modus operandi during the marriage, that dynamic has to CHANGE in a definitive way before he's ready to partner up with anyone new. Otherwise, he'll see "abuse" around every corner, and still not step up to address it. Then it'll be you ending up with a new "rug" rather than an authoritative partner.

 

Counseling is all well and good... but if he's still lying by omission and compartmentalizing his personal people, what's really changed?

Either he's living his life, grounded in REALITY, in full view of anyone who cares to look, or he isn't. If he isn't, then he's not reached resolution.

[White Flower]

Thanks for saying that, WF. I'm not well-known around her for my "shades of gray" actually.

 

But... when you're on the other side of this thing, in a reconciled marriage, hindsight's 20/20. I actually understand why a guy would cheat better than I understand why an OW would cheat with him, when it's all said and done.

 

I caught my husband about two weeks shy of "making the transaction", but he's a genuinely GOOD man. He just had his head screwed on backwards, steeped in MLC issues, mild depression, chronic pain, and hopelessness due to feeling ineffectual within the primary relationship.

 

To be honest, if he'd have gone through with it... I'd have put him to the curb, never knowing that there could be a better resolution. In my case, it would've been a mistake. Because once all his issues were addressed, he was able to find his "happy place" again.

 

MM have to confront and surmount their problems within the marriage before they're worth a sh*t to anybody. That's why we point them back toward their spouse to either fix it or leave it on it's own merits. It's easy to demonize these guys when they fail to do that. (And frankly, some of them are such major a*holes in their actions it's hard to care if we're fair with them or not.) But people have reasons for their behaviors, and when we're intimately involved with someone, we ignore those "reasons" at our own emotional risk.

 

 

 

(Glad to assist, Indian. )

I'm interested in knowing from you as well as from Reboot if you ever wondered about the marrying young question. People often say they "would never cheat" or "would never tolerate a MM persuing them". I was once like these people, yet I am where I am today. I know my MM meant to keep his promise of fidelity and I mine when I married. Can either of you accept that people change and discover who they are and what they really want later in life? I know what our romantic society believes, but in all honesty, do you really expect us to keep a promise made if we were so young when we made it? Especially after our spouses turned into the people they did and are not willing to improve with counceling or other strategies?