KATANYA Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'. Just wanted to point out the contradiction - read several recent threads and couldn't help but notice this! I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification.
whichwayisup Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification. The difference is, the MM really doesn't "owe" the OW anything, just like she doesn't owe him anything whereas he owes his wife and she owes him due to the fact they are married, possibly have children involved and because of that, most of the time BS's will give their cheating spouse a second chance to make things right. Anyway, for weeks now these types of threads have disappeared, everyone has been getting along, no heated arguements which turn into flaming wars. These threads only bring out the worst in most and pin OW/BS against eachother. And, also these threads get alot of attention so everyone can put in their 2 cents worth, meanwhile the other threads where people need help, get ignored.
Freedom Now Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Owing or not owing someone doesn't negate the fact that we are talking about the same type of man: a cheater. The players in the situation may be different, but he is still a cheater no matter which side you look from. And I agree with the contradiction. I always have. NO woman should have to endure the pain of being involved with a man who harms her emotionally. And a cheater is no prize, IMHO. Thanks, but no thanks. Just my two cents.
Author KATANYA Posted November 4, 2007 Author Posted November 4, 2007 The difference is, the MM really doesn't "owe" the OW anything, just like she doesn't owe him anything whereas he owes his wife and she owes him due to the fact they are married, possibly have children involved and because of that, most of the time BS's will give their cheating spouse a second chance to make things right. Everyone understands that but that isn't my question....my question is "Why do we encourage W to 'make it work' with MM" and tell her "Things can change and even be better" when we tell OW that MM is a leopard that does not change spots! He is a selfish cheater/liar, etc. etc. and will always be!!! Anyway, for weeks now these types of threads have disappeared, everyone has been getting along, no heated arguements which turn into flaming wars. These threads only bring out the worst in most and pin OW/BS against eachother. And, also these threads get alot of attention so everyone can put in their 2 cents worth, meanwhile the other threads where people need help, get ignored. I certainly am not looking to start flaming wars here or anywhere else and I don't think ANYONE should interpret my question as an attempt to incite a riot ----I truly wanted to understand why we have two perceptions of MM (not why BS takes her man back or why OW still wants him - that's covered in plenty of ongoing threads) - do we have TWO views of MM depending on which parties we are giving advice to???That's all I'm asking. If you take offense to my question I'm sorry...it was just an observation! Certainly not trying to cut into peoples time well spend giving out 'help' - was more concerned that our 'helping' advice and 'insight' into MM changes depending on who we are giving advice to! Wasn't aware we were not allowed to make observations on LS but I'm still new...I'll go back and read the rules again!
Mino Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 I think that a person cheats also is looking for a void to fill in his heart, something is missing . Which really boils down to that they really do not love themselves. So this is why its not the BS fault. Unless they learn to love themselves, they will continue to cheat no matter what side of the fence their on. They really need to learn to love themselves first, and fill this hole, not by looking at another person to fill it. When children are involved, society, thinks its best to have both parents there, so that is why, I think BS is told to work on M, I personally do not believe this is true. The ow, can walk away easier, cause not many know about her, and there are no strings attached finanically. JMO;)
Mino Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 I also think, this is more of an American thing, They stay no matter what syndrome. European women see things alot different, so i think its also a culture/relgious View
whichwayisup Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Sorry K, you're right actually. I guess I just assumed (tsk tsk to me) that this thread would start off BS vs OW. Just in the past it's happened...Anyway, I thought for a minute, forget my other reply. hopefully this thread will shed light on both situations, and how advice is given and why.
Freedom Now Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 I threw my xMM to the curb and I think his wife should have too. She would be healed by now, too, if she had. Neither one of us deserved to be deceived. A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. At least in my situation.
Freedom Now Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 She will never leave him, I am sorry to say. Someday, I hope, she finds out what kind of man she is really married to. A cheating minister is no prize. Especially one who lies to his OW to get her into the relationship. But, she will never know that because I will never hurt her nor harm her. She doesn't deserve that kind of pain. He does. What she DOES deserve is an honest, open, mutually loving relationship with a man she can trust. And she surely doesn't have that. And if she stays, she never will... FN
whichwayisup Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 I'm sure she knows something ain't right on some level but has chosen to ignore it for her own personal reasons.
Freedom Now Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Oh, I am sure you are right. She just doesn't deserve to live like that. Life is too short. And she deserves to be treated so much better than how he treated her and their marriage. I wish her no ill will. Just happiness.
White Flower Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'. Just wanted to point out the contradiction - read several recent threads and couldn't help but notice this! I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification. Hi K, I think one of the differences is that most of our societies are romantic. We want to believe in the happily ever after. I certainly did. I know my MM certainly does. And that is why there is so much concern over discovery: we do not want to break anyone's (romantic) heart. BTW, before I forget, someone posted above that it is easier for the OW to walk away because hardly anyone knows about her. Easier for who? Everyone else, that's who. While her romantic heart shatters into a million pieces. Now, back to the subject. Why is society so romantic? I think the answer is religion. The sinful Christians have thier superhero, Jesus, who died on the cross for our sins. The long suffering Muslim woman will have a palace in heaven while her husband is rewarded with 72? virgins. I could list many more romance filled scenarios, but I'm sure you get my point. These philosophies collectively mold us in our culture and we are made to believe we are heathens if we follow our own heart and look to fulfill our own needs. Our society keeps us in line. Just look around here at LS. So we encourage BSs, and excommunicate the wicked OW. It's just easier that way as the above poster says. Most people can't help but follow the path of traditionalism. It makes us feel safe from our fears. Many BSs are either so fraught with concern that thier spouse could cheat and others are completely dismayed that their spouses did cheat. But, I wonder how many reached down into the core of their soul, got passed the anger, and really tried to understand why. Another reason is possession. Religion teaches us that our spouse belongs to us. I used to love this idea when I felt loved. Then I began to feel trapped by it. Some can go on forever ignoring this trapped feeling while others cannot. I suppose I wouldn't mind feeling trapped if I were adored, cared for, and loved. Otherwise it is just a prison. But isn't interesting that our very close friends, the ones who know us best are the ones who encourage us in our A? It is because they know us. They know what we are going through and they know that we deserve happiness. My friends also happen to know that I'm out if the W ever finds out. Perhaps the real difference is knowledge.
frannie Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'. Just wanted to point out the contradiction - read several recent threads and couldn't help but notice this! I agree that the MM can be a liar, cheater, etc. that the OW doesn't need in her life - but then I would have to tell the W the same thing!!! Just looking for a little clarification. KATANYA not for the first time you make an excellent point on the subject of infidelity and advice. I think the reason that the advice given in both cases (about the same man) is different is because of more or less what White Flower said: I wouldn't say it was 'romance' as such, but rather the desire to preserve a marriage, at (almost) all costs. Therefore, if a woman finds her man has been cheating, she's most likely to be advised to sort things out with 'the cheater', while an OW is advised to break things off because that very same 'cheater' is not worth the effort. It's really about preserving marriage and nothing else. A cheater can, certainly, be someone who has 'something missing in themselves' and only go on to cheat again and again until that something is addressed. But as you say, his W would be advised to stay with him, his OW to forget it because 'he'll only cheat on you'. Not all cheaters are serial cheaters with something 'missing' from them. But it serves the argument of some to claim that they are... when they're addressing OW (not wives). The one thing I would say is that if BSs have evidence that the man is cheating on her again and again, then in that case they're advised to give up and walk away if possible. But generally speaking, first offence, you are right, the advise is completely contradictory. The same goes for this argument, and it's something I've pointed out before. An OW can come on here saying, I want to tell the W and expose the affair! They are told NO, don't do that, it's not your place to interfere in another couple's marriage!! A BS, on the other hand, is advised (without even suggesting it herself), as a matter of course, to go to the spouse of the OP if they have one, and expose the affair. Again, completely contradictory. Apparently it IS her place to interfere in someone else's marriage all of a sudden... and the reason..? Because it's protecting her own marriage. So there you have it. In my opinion, these contradictions (the one you pointed out, and the one I indicated) exist because the primary concern with many giving out advice is to preserve a marriage, first and foremost.
Woggle Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 While I think a betrayed spouse should leave there is a difference between a MW and an OW. A MW starts off from the position of believing her husband is an honest man that is faithful to her. She enters into the situation attempting to have a healthy relationship but instead her husband betrays her. An OW on the other hand knowingly walks into a situation that is almost guarunteed to cause her pain. There is a big warning sign on this man and they choose to ignore it so when they are hurt I don't have much sympathy because they should have seen it coming. A MW on the other hand does my sympathy because she is still trying to cope with the shock of the fact that her marriage has been a lie. They are two very different situations and when you add kids to the mix it become even more complicated.
imstunned Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 While I think a betrayed spouse should leave there is a difference between a MW and an OW. A MW starts off from the position of believing her husband is an honest man that is faithful to her. She enters into the situation attempting to have a healthy relationship but instead her husband betrays her. An OW on the other hand knowingly walks into a situation that is almost guarunteed to cause her pain. There is a big warning sign on this man and they choose to ignore it so when they are hurt I don't have much sympathy because they should have seen it coming. Obviously every situation is different - but my ex - he made out he was single. I only found out he was married 8 months in. I totally agree that the advice given to OW and BS's is contradictory. Can mess up your head really, all you need to do is read through the advice on the ifidelity thread, and its very different to the advice we as OW are given.
Woggle Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Obviously every situation is different - but my ex - he made out he was single. I only found out he was married 8 months in. I totally agree that the advice given to OW and BS's is contradictory. Can mess up your head really, all you need to do is read through the advice on the ifidelity thread, and its very different to the advice we as OW are given. The minute you found out he was married he should have been history.
imstunned Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 The minute you found out he was married he should have been history. I havent seen him since finding out he was married- but after 8 months I was already very emotionally involved. Its not so easy to walk away. And any way - he threw me under the bus once his wife found out. All I'm saying is that not all of us have the faintest idea what we are getting into.
frannie Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 The minute you found out he was married he should have been history. But if you apply your reasoning above to this situation, the (unknowing) OW in this case "entered into a situation attempting to have a healthy relationship". Both the BS and the unknowing OW are in exactly the same position... finding out that the man they thought was one thing, is actually a cheat and lying to them.
Author KATANYA Posted November 4, 2007 Author Posted November 4, 2007 Hi K, I think one of the differences is that most of our societies are romantic. We want to believe in the happily ever after.......... BTW, before I forget, someone posted above that it is easier for the OW to walk away because hardly anyone knows about her. Easier for who? Everyone else, that's who. While her romantic heart shatters into a million pieces. Now, back to the subject. Why is society so romantic? I think the answer is religion. ...... Our society keeps us in line. Just look around here at LS. So we encourage BSs, and excommunicate the wicked OW. It's just easier that way as the above poster says. Most people can't help but follow the path of traditionalism. It makes us feel safe from our fears. Many BSs are either so fraught with concern that thier spouse could cheat and others are completely dismayed that their spouses did cheat. But, I wonder how many reached down into the core of their soul, got passed the anger, and really tried to understand why. Another reason is possession. Religion teaches us that our spouse belongs to us. I used to love this idea when I felt loved. Then I began to feel trapped by it. Some can go on forever ignoring this trapped feeling while others cannot. I suppose I wouldn't mind feeling trapped if I were adored, cared for, and loved. Otherwise it is just a prison. WF you always have such insightful thoughts on these matters and I agree 100% with your views on romantic love, happily ever after syndrome, and the effects of religion and society views on our traditional thought..........the concept that really made me think was the reason you gave that we become 'possessions' because we BELONG to someone. I can honestly say that I did feel with my exH that I was in a prison because I was his possession...even being loved and adored and cared for should NEVER make anyone think that they own you or that your are THEIRS. And I do believe from the MM/OW relationships I have seen, the one I went through, and from what I read here that MM are some of the most controlling, manipulative people we will ever meet. I really do believe that even the sweetest, kindest ones do see OW and W as their own possessions ----they WANT both women and they say and do WHATEVER it takes to make sure both women are 'committed' to MM. When DDay happens, MM focuses on the relationship that, ultimately, gives him the 'sure thing'. I'm not saying that MM does not love OW but when faced with the choice to choose between what you know and what you don't know.........to me it is safer for MM to choose W because she is the one who he has more knowledge of, more bargaining power with (I mean there are finances, kids, ppty, friends, family, etc. etc - a whole lot of leverage here that the MM can use) whereas he doesn't have nearly as much with OW and she CAN walk away without having to divest herself of anything with him (other than the broken heart) ----OW is a bigger gamble for MM and, from what I've see, MM are men who like to be in control and are very poor gamblers - at crunch time, MM will pick 'control' over 'risk' Woggle, you said: While I think a betrayed spouse should leave there is a difference between a MW and an OW. A MW starts off from the position of believing her husband is an honest man that is faithful to her. She enters into the situation attempting to have a healthy relationship but instead her husband betrays her. An OW on the other hand knowingly walks into a situation that is almost guarunteed to cause her pain. There is a big warning sign on this man and they choose to ignore it so when they are hurt I don't have much sympathy because they should have seen it coming. A MW on the other hand does my sympathy because she is still trying to cope with the shock of the fact that her marriage has been a lie. They are two very different situations and when you add kids to the mix it become even more complicated. I agree that MW begins the M believing that her husband is honest and faithful while OW many times knows that MM is not honest and faithful....however, I also think the logic you use when you say "There is a big warning sign on this man and they (OW) choose to ignore it so when they are hurt I don't have much sympathy because they should have seen it coming" is EXACTLY the argument I am making...we throw OW 'under the bus', and then tell her MM is scum that doesn't deserve her but we tell W we have sympathy for her and that 'she ' can work it out and that he can change! ........from the same people that will say "he made her look like a fool", "he disgraced her, himself and their family", "he's a dog/player/cheater/ etc. etc"........Gosh, we actually give OW better advise than we give W and, you know what, if MM isn't good enough for the OW - the woman that is seen by many as the 'husband stealer" and the "homewrecker" and what I mean here is VERY little sympathy for her- than he surely isn't good enough for W. W stays and tried to rebuilt because everyone EXPECTS her too - INCLUDING MM! Personally, I would say this: marriage is a contract - legally binding and subject to certain terms and conditions being met. One party commits a HUGE breach of contract and basically entered into the contract misrepresenting who he was and what he was able to bring to and commit to the contract so, THEREFORE, the contract has been breached and the W should be told to get a D from him. If she wants to get to know the MM for what he really is and then decides to marry him KNOWING what he is, get married again to this new man that she has come to know. How many W could re-marry their cheating husbands? My guess is not many so why expect that they should stay with him to begin with!!! I'm going to give the same advice to them that OW get ----get away from him, find yourself a nice, single, loving man that you deserve and who will be honest and faithful and committed to you. Oh, and BTW, as far as children go and dividing finances, etc.....many people go through this EVERY DAY and I would rather explain to my children that their father was going to live in another place etc. etc. but still loved them and would see them than I would try to explain why daddy has a girlfriend, a family with another woman, etc.......... One more thing I've noticed....Men who post here (and I did go back to see opinions from the posters I know to be male) are MUCH more firm in their believe that there are no second chances....once their W/GF cheats thats it and its over.......and I really don't see a lot of women telling them that they should 'take her back' or 'make it work'. As a matter of fact, go to infidelity forum/marriage forum and you will see MANY posts telling the poster that he 'married the wrong girl' and that they should get rid of a cheating W etc. .......why would we expect more from BW than we would expect from BH?
reboot Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 Guys, guys, guys. What internet forum have you been reading? Are we all still talking about LS here? I can't tell you how many BS I have seen that were told to "dump their sorry ass". I have myself been told that here. And advising the OW NOT to tell the wife? What thread was this? I've seen plenty of people advise OW to tell the wife. Ask imstunned, she was told to tell the wife and wouldn't. Now I agree that when advice is given that involves "try to work things out", it's given to BS more than OW, but it's not nearly as black and white as everyone is making out. Most of us give advice based on our own unique perspectives. I think this just says there are more people here that believe in marriage than don't.
Author KATANYA Posted November 4, 2007 Author Posted November 4, 2007 Guys, guys, guys. What internet forum have you been reading? Are we all still talking about LS here? I can't tell you how many BS I have seen that were told to "dump their sorry ass". I have myself been told that here. It does happen but I have also read posts from Marriage/Infidelity where BS has been told that M can be salvaged and MM can change. And the W seems to be encouraged more than not to confront the situation and make the M work. And advising the OW NOT to tell the wife? What thread was this? I've seen plenty of people advise OW to tell the wife. Ask imstunned, she was told to tell the wife and wouldn't. I have to go back and read imstunned's posts but I believe she was told to tell W because she really wanted to and despite several who told her not too she was determined to do it....there have been many more who were encouraged NOT to tell W because OW would either not be believed, because MM would only twist the situation to make OW look like the stalker/crazy woman, because W would not believe OW etc. Now I agree that when advice is given that involves "try to work things out", it's given to BS more than OW, but it's not nearly as black and white as everyone is making out. Most of us give advice based on our own unique perspectives. I think this just says there are more people here that believe in marriage than don't. Many people want to 'believe' in the concept of marriage but does 'believing in marriage' equate to the W having to believe that she has to 'fix' or even can fix the M that MM destroyed? You can believe in marriage but, to me, the MM who broke the vows is the one who doesn't believe in M and I don't think W should be encouraged to stay in a M with the same MM that the OW is told to 'dump'. I don't know how the same MM can be 'salvageable' to one woman but worthless to another. He is the same man, he has lied to both, he has cheated on both and he has broken promises to both ----yet he, more than not, still has the W to fall back on because we expect the W to keep him (because the W usually does). Seems to me, if we took it to the extreme, that the OW should be told "keep the liar and the cheater because you know what you were getting and are willing to accept him for what he is" and the W should be told "move on, he's not worth it, you deserve better than what he can give you" but its usually the other way around. This isn't a plug for the OW to get her man because I really don't think the MM is anyone's prize - whoever gets him in the end is probably the loser, not the winner! IMO.
reboot Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 First of all, I've made my decisions based on what I believed and what I felt I needed to do. I've never asked for the advice or opinion of anyone here, or anywhere else. That being said, people DO come here looking for advice. And when they ask for it, they are given it. And it often varies wildly. It's up to the person seeking answers to determine which advice works best for them. I find it silly that people on here are always bitching and moaning about who gives what advice and why. It's pretty obvious people give advice based on their own beliefs and values. And we don't all have to share those things. If you don't like a particular set of advice, don't follow it. If you don't like a particular persons posts, don't read them. We are all valuable humans. We all make the world go round. We all have something to contribute. We don't have to agree on everything, but we can all respect each other.
LucreziaBorgia Posted November 4, 2007 Posted November 4, 2007 If you go back and read some of the posts in the last few weeks(maybe longer - havn't gone back that far), the trend to tell OW to move on from MM because he is a cheater and will only do it to her (meaning he will cheat on her) and then in other posts (here and in infidelity and Marriage forums) the BS is told M can be saved, things can change, she should hold on, etc. .........Doesn't it seem contradictory for people to post one thing to OW yet opposite to W. When W posts: Can my marriage be saved? Should I give him a second chance? Why aren't the responses the same as for the OW - he's a cheater and a liar and he'll just do it to you again if you win the 'prize'. Because people tend to see marriage as an investment entered into honestly, and the OW/MM relationship as a disposable divestment that was entered into dishonestly. People will think that if a man enters into something honestly, he will tend back toward that to reconcile and fix things, since he started out that way. If a man enters into a relationship dishonestly, he will always trend toward that way, because he got away with it from the beginning. That's the general idea, I guess. Besides, people generally don't root for the "bad guy" you know. In case I failed to make it clear - I'm just saying that this is how people perceive it, not that OW are disposable or 'bad guys'.
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