MM Promises

[GreenEyedLady]

I think that SBT gets that...but she's accepted that and is going to stay for the time being...

 

In no possible view can this be looked at as a smart choice, SBT. Think of what you really want. It can't be staying with a man who know is not going to leave his wife. That will only bring you heartache. I think some people here feel that point of this forum is to "support" OW to stay in situations that are obviously very painful for them. I want to "support" you to leave this situation. You are letting this man have such big pieces of your heart/ soul and he is not giving you what you deserve in return. This is not a good coping strategy by any means, GEL. Be stronger, SBT. Stop letting this guy walk away with all the pieces of your heart that should belong to YOU, not him.

 

Well, well, well...What a turn of events...You've only been the Xow for what, 1 week+?

 

SBT has her eyes open and sees the truth of her situation...If she is ok with that, then that is her choice...

 

I caution you to come here and decide what is best for someone else...It wasn't too long ago that you were in similar shoes, right?

[nadiaj2727]

I caution you to come here and decide what is best for someone else...It wasn't too long ago that you were in similar shoes, right?

 

Exactly, GEL, and I threw those smelly old shoes away for GOOD because I received really awesome advice here that I'm trying to give now. I don't think there's anything wrong with me advising SBT to throw her shoes away too and see if it feels as good for her as it did for me. I am just trying to advise other people based on my experience that yes I just had a few weeks ago (although I had been trying to end the affair for a couple of months and I knew it wasn't good for me since almost the beginning... I didn't even know what NC was or how well it worked until I came here and got good advice.) People here did know what was best for me, before I fully knew it myself. I think you just don't like what I have to say unless I agree with you. That's fine with me. I certainly don't agree with you either but the good thing about this forum and the Internet in general is that I don't have to. When I like something you say, which I have in the past, I agree with you and when I don't like something you have to say, which I also have in the past, I disagree with you. That's just how I am -- I'm not going to not say what I feel just to please you or not give advice I personally think is very good advice just because you don't agree with it.

[nadiaj2727]

PS GEL, I have nothing against you personally. I am just trying to give advice and interact with others which to me is the purpose of a forum. I received advice on this very forum to really think about my so-called "love" affair and realize that my xMM is a lying cheating person by nature (since he was having an affair on his wife with me, after all), who was breaking the vows he took with his wive, and that *I* was enabling him to do so and therefore letting him turn me into a lying cheating person as well, and that I should kick him to the curb, become a better person with values and integrity, and find a better person to be with (or be happy on my own... best advice of all). That's what I did, and it makes me very happy, so in turn I give that advice to others in my former situation, in an attempt to help them be happy. If they were already happy I doubt they would be here saying, "please read about my situation and try to help me with it."

 

You seem to have something personally against me because of this. *shrug* You can take my advice or leave it -- same with me with your advice and opinions -- no biggie.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

talking about her leaving him, being MM. of course i wouldnt think she would leave the kids, there are two boys.

 

SBT, I think sometimes we just have to see for ourselves, we have to get to the metaphorical "finish line" before we are done. If your MM doesn't leave, you'll get to that finish line. As long as you are able to dedicate yourself to your relationship then you wont.

 

It may go against all logic, but I know exactly how you feel. I weigh my happiness against my unhappiness - just as I have done with single guy relationships, and in the scale of things, the happiness of what I feel with MM outweighs the unhappiness of an uncertain future with him.

 

As for the original post, MM doesn't really make promises. He knows better to promise me anything, we're both aware of our situation and promising things that he can't know for sure never gets him very far with me. I ignore promises, I call them hopes instead. I used to promise the "if you leave, we'll be together forever" line but I no longer do that. We're both more respectful of the fragility of our future together to make promises that may never materialise.

 

But, that said, hopes and dreams are lovely and I have plenty of them as does he.

[sadbuttrue]

very well said je ne. i am glad that MM has not promised me things he can not do right now or maybe ever. i would rather have a wistful dream of something that might be than broken promises.

 

you are right about the weighing of happiness against possible unhappiness. right now, what i get from him makes me happy, and i am not yet ready for the certain unhappiness that would come from ending it. when he stops making me happy, then i will reevaluate my situation.

 

thanks again gel for your support, and wwiu, as always, i know you mean well.

[GreenEyedLady]

thanks again gel for your support

 

I've always got your back...

[White Flower]

SBT, I think sometimes we just have to see for ourselves, we have to get to the metaphorical "finish line" before we are done. If your MM doesn't leave, you'll get to that finish line. As long as you are able to dedicate yourself to your relationship then you wont.

 

It may go against all logic, but I know exactly how you feel. I weigh my happiness against my unhappiness - just as I have done with single guy relationships, and in the scale of things, the happiness of what I feel with MM outweighs the unhappiness of an uncertain future with him.

 

As for the original post, MM doesn't really make promises. He knows better to promise me anything, we're both aware of our situation and promising things that he can't know for sure never gets him very far with me. I ignore promises, I call them hopes instead. I used to promise the "if you leave, we'll be together forever" line but I no longer do that. We're both more respectful of the fragility of our future together to make promises that may never materialise.

 

But, that said, hopes and dreams are lovely and I have plenty of them as does he.

Great post JNRP! Afterall, wasn't it the happiness we felt in the very beginning that drew us to them? I'll tell you, if I ended the PA right this minute and remained friends with MM, I would still be happier for knowing him. If SBT is receiving happiness from her MM and it outweighs the unhappiness she wouldn't get without him, then more power to her to stay with him.

[american-woman]

Its called being in a FOG. The Wayward FOG The Fog of an AFFAIR!

[GreenEyedLady]

Its called being in a FOG. The Wayward FOG The Fog of an AFFAIR!

 

The FOG of the BS that believes her H is actually in a FOG...Does that make it easier to deal with?

[luvmy2ns]

The FOG of the BS that believes her H is actually in a FOG...Does that make it easier to deal with?

 

That's not a fog he's in. It's an OW.

[american-woman]

Bless you Nadia for seeing the light

[precious1357]

SBT, I think sometimes we just have to see for ourselves, we have to get to the metaphorical "finish line" before we are done. If your MM doesn't leave, you'll get to that finish line. As long as you are able to dedicate yourself to your relationship then you wont.

 

It may go against all logic, but I know exactly how you feel. I weigh my happiness against my unhappiness - just as I have done with single guy relationships, and in the scale of things, the happiness of what I feel with MM outweighs the unhappiness of an uncertain future with him.

 

As for the original post, MM doesn't really make promises. He knows better to promise me anything, we're both aware of our situation and promising things that he can't know for sure never gets him very far with me. I ignore promises, I call them hopes instead. I used to promise the "if you leave, we'll be together forever" line but I no longer do that. We're both more respectful of the fragility of our future together to make promises that may never materialise.

 

But, that said, hopes and dreams are lovely and I have plenty of them as does he.

 

Excellent!!!

[nadiaj2727]

American-Woman:

 

Bless you Nadia for seeing the light

 

...thanks to all the really good advice I've received here (and a lot of reading/ thinking I did on my own about the topics of marriage, divorce and affairs). I finally realized that marriage DOES mean something to me, and I should respect the insitutition, if only for selfish reasons because one day I myself would like to be married, and I can't rightfully expect other women to respect my marriage if I continued to disrespect a marriage. (I DO believe in what goes around comes around! I don't think these self-justifying OWs would be singing the same tune about affairs-can-be-real-love and he-just-needs-time-to-get-out-of-his-crappy-marriage if *they* were in the wife's position.)

 

I've also gained a lot more respect for women in general, including xMM's wife -- it feels powerful to listen to my own instinct (that this woman does not deserve to have a deceitful husband cheating on her... and he might anyway, but I want to be no part of that cheating) instead of being under xMM's manipulative control (re-writing their history and saying they were never in love, she is emotionally "abusive" to him [oh please -- every time I told him something he didn't like he said it felt like I "punched him in the stomach" -- I'm sure he'd say I'm emotionally abusive to him too then!], he doesn't "feel" married so he's free to be with me, he wants to marry me when he's still married [oh please, I can't believe I ever fell for that one! No man who really respects me would seriously talk about marrying me when he's not even free to do so!), etc. It feels so powerful to be in charge of my own life and have principles to live by... that no matter what, I will never ever again date/ sleep with a married man or cheat on anyone, no matter how much I'm attracted to them or what sweet love words they whisper to me!!

 

I agree with you American-Woman about the fog you keep talking about -- I was definitely in an affair-induced "fog" and I finally woke up and got out of it. ExMM is still in the "fog" and thinks we can still make it work. Yeah right. I just can't help telling people, wake up and get out of the fog!!!!!! Hurry before you waste more days of your life in fog fairytale land instead of in reality with someone who truly loves you and is committed to you and only you. I guess I'm like one of those crazed Baptists or something, it just feels so good to share though. I told my sister about MM (back when I thought he was separated pending divorce and then with later developments of the actual he's-not-going-through-with-divorce story but she didn't have the experience/ knowledge to say, "This sounds very suspicious... you are so much better than this... run like hell away from this sleazy man." Now she sees that I learned through my mistakes and I will never ever again be dishonest about who I am to most of the world, or enable a man to cheat on his wife, and all the other stupid things affairs make people do... and both she and I have the experience/ lessons to be able to tell any other girl friend who comes to us saying "Oh, I'm so in love with an attached man" to get the hell out of dodge before experiencing so much pain and heartache. So I can't help it, that's what I do, because that's what I wish she (or anyone else, if I had found this forum in time or confessed to anyone else in real life) would have told me in the beginning.

[luvmy2ns]

But don't you see, Nadia, that the common thread running throughout the OW forum is "but I'm happy, so who gives a damn about anyone else?" While you may be the type of person who does give a damn about others, some just aren't and never will be.

[nadiaj2727]

I guess that's true, luvmy2ns, and how sad. I really thought this was a place for unsuspecting women who somehow fell for a married man to get out of this messy situation, or to vent while their partner went through his divorce, etc. At least, that's what it was for me. But if people want to brag about not caring about the wife and children involved, and oscillate between what to do and how they really feel about their situation, then okay, I guess it's something completely different for them! That is just not my style. Ewww.

[White Flower]

But don't you see, Nadia, that the common thread running throughout the OW forum is "but I'm happy, so who gives a damn about anyone else?" While you may be the type of person who does give a damn about others, some just aren't and never will be.

You cannot simply believe that all OW are the same? Am I to assume that all dark-haired pencil pushers are boring, judgemental, and predictable? Of course not. Some of us DO give a damn about others. That may be the VERY reason we end it. Don't put everyone into the same box. And even if they are that way it doesn't mean they will always be that way. We are here to change and grow whether we change the way Nadia did or not. Whether we change as quickly as Nadia did or not. If we do not change or improve our lives, then we are wasting time on this planet.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

I guess that's true, luvmy2ns, and how sad. I really thought this was a place for unsuspecting women who somehow fell for a married man to get out of this messy situation, or to vent while their partner went through his divorce, etc. At least, that's what it was for me. But if people want to brag about not caring about the wife and children involved, and oscillate between what to do and how they really feel about their situation, then okay, I guess it's something completely different for them! That is just not my style. Ewww.

 

"Unsuspecting women"? Unsuspecting of what? Granted there are some OW who have been lied to by MM who have denied their true marital status. But the rest are women who became involved with a MM who knew fully of his commitment to another - just as you did Nadia, for eight months. I fail to see what is "unsuspecting" in that.

 

I would also like to point out that I have read and re-read this thread again and I fail to see where any OW have "bragged about not caring about the wife and children". Can you shed light on where you see this? Is it because OW do not finish their relationship with MM like you did because he did not drop everything and divorce you immediately? Some may say that he is probably relieved that he didn't, because in the end you left him anyway and I suppose that could show an amount of mistrust and lack of dedication to your relationship with him?

 

Affairs are not black and white, right or wrong, good or evil, yes or no situations for most. Each and every one has different factors although the ingredients largely remain the same.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

You cannot simply believe that all OW are the same? Am I to assume that all dark-haired pencil pushers are boring, judgemental, and predictable? Of course not. Some of us DO give a damn about others. That may be the VERY reason we end it. Don't put everyone into the same box. And even if they are that way it doesn't mean they will always be that way. We are here to change and grow whether we change the way Nadia did or not. Whether we change as quickly as Nadia did or not. If we do not change or improve our lives, then we are wasting time on this planet.

 

I agree WF. Assumption is the load an OW has to bear in many circumstances. But I remember throughout - until someone has walked a mile in my shoes, they will fail to see the decisions I have made and the reasons for them.

 

Nadia is not a "reformed" character in my opinion. She made a decision for herself and if she is happy with that decision then that is all well and good for her. However, since I don't see affairs as "rights and wrongs" in most circumstances, I cannot see how someone can become "reformed" OW. Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person Nadia, I am using you as an example of an OW who has ended her affair rather than concentrating personally on your situation.

 

We grow, we learn and by god, our situations certainly provide us with learning materials about ourselves and our relationships with other people! But I refuse to think of my affair as downright wrong, because at the end of the day, those for whom I have respect for and whom I love can judge my situation, but I am without doubt my own harshest critic.

[nadiaj2727]

JNRR--

 

I was talking about the thread that's called "I'm PROUD to be an OW" and when Gwenyth said she "doesn't give a hoot" about MM's family because they're his problem to worry about. GEL has also said that cheating is her MM's choice and she doesn't feel bad about his wife because it's his decision. I was probably mixing up threads and I didn't mean this particular thread, sorry, I meant this forum in general. I can find quotes of what I was referring to if you'd like.

 

With unsuspecting women... I think there are a lot. I consider myself unsuspecting because in the beginning my xMM told me he and his wife were separated pending mutual divorce. That turned out to be far from the case. If he had told me the facts in the beginning and that it would take months for him to divorce instead of them already being quite on his way to divorce court, I never would have been involved with him. I feel that he misled me to get me to be with him and I was unsuspecting of the true situation until I came here and heard how many other women were in my situation and that it was not a unique, real love relationship, it was just an affair. (I totally agree with you that he is probably relieved I left him, just as I am very relieved I left him. It was a deceptive situation from the get-go and no good could have ever come out of it; therefore it is better for all parties involved -- him, his wife, me -- that I left.)

 

I personally think that affairs are black and white "bad" things. But that is just my opinion. I think they are all the same in that someone who is committed to someone else is being with another person outside of the committed relationship. I respect your opinion that affairs can be different and not necessarily "bad." I see how you can think that, and I used to think that about mine (after I realized it was an affair... at first I didn't even think it was, I was that naive!), and I'm not judging you for not thinking your affair is bad. I know I can come off as judgmental lately, just being so relieved to have found the "black and white" aspects of my own situation, so I apologize if I judged you. I do not know the particulars of your affair and although I still personally feel that all affairs are all bad for everyone involved, including the OW, I don't think you have to think that way of course.

[nadiaj2727]

JNRR:

Nadia is not a "reformed" character in my opinion. She made a decision for herself and if she is happy with that decision then that is all well and good for her. However, since I don't see affairs as "rights and wrongs" in most circumstances, I cannot see how someone can become "reformed" OW. Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person Nadia, I am using you as an example of an OW who has ended her affair rather than concentrating personally on your situation.

 

I didn't take offense. But I would like to state that the biggest reason I ended my affair was because I realized I was doing the wrong thing. I could not wake up in the morning or look at myself in the mirror without feeling like I was doing the wrong thing. A benefit of deciding to do the right thing was that I was enlightened about the true status of my "relationship" (aka affair) and I saw things in a whole new life -- like the fact that he wasn't a good person and wasn't good for me, anyway, and the fact that I would not be in a happy long-term relationship with him even if he's divorced, and I also began to see all the lies/ deceptions/ manipulations he had been stringing me along with. But my primary reason for wanting to end it to start out with was that I would like to be a better person, who isn't part of cheating or deceit. I am never going to have an affair again, I am quite sure of it. Therefore I consider myself a REFORMED OW. But of course you can consider me any which way you'd like, it's your perogative.

[nadiaj2727]

WhiteFlower --

 

You cannot simply believe that all OW are the same? Am I to assume that all dark-haired pencil pushers are boring, judgemental, and predictable? Of course not. Some of us DO give a damn about others. That may be the VERY reason we end it. Don't put everyone into the same box. And even if they are that way it doesn't mean they will always be that way. We are here to change and grow whether we change the way Nadia did or not. Whether we change as quickly as Nadia did or not. If we do not change or improve our lives, then we are wasting time on this planet.

I totally agree with everything you just said. And I think that there are OWs who give a damn about others. I think that an OW who gives a damn about others will eventually end her affair, because having an affair goes against caring about others (and, in many respects, ourselves). But I agree that OWs are in all kinds of different situations and there is no telling their reasons for staying in an affair. I know there are many OWs who honestly believe they are doing the right thing. Or they know they are doing the wrong thing but for a "right" reason, be it love, or whatever, therefore, they stay. I have nothing to say against them. I was talking about OWs who boldly state that they don't care about the wife or family of the MM because it is not their responsibility. I think that we as humans owe each other more than this flagrant self-regard. I think we need to take responsibility for our own actions and not say, "Well, he's the one cheating on his wife." (In which case he can easily tell his wife, "She was the one willing to cheat with me" or, worse, "she TEMPTED me until I gave in" on D-Day). WhiteFlower I have never seen anything from your posts except self-reflection and humility and deep thought (unlike mine, which get hostile sometimes and sound judgmental accidentally). I can't judge you in the least, I'm sure you have very good reasons for being with your MM.

[White Flower]

JNRR:

Nadia is not a "reformed" character in my opinion. She made a decision for herself and if she is happy with that decision then that is all well and good for her. However, since I don't see affairs as "rights and wrongs" in most circumstances, I cannot see how someone can become "reformed" OW. Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person Nadia, I am using you as an example of an OW who has ended her affair rather than concentrating personally on your situation.

 

I didn't take offense. But I would like to state that the biggest reason I ended my affair was because I realized I was doing the wrong thing. I could not wake up in the morning or look at myself in the mirror without feeling like I was doing the wrong thing. A benefit of deciding to do the right thing was that I was enlightened about the true status of my "relationship" (aka affair) and I saw things in a whole new life -- like the fact that he wasn't a good person and wasn't good for me, anyway, and the fact that I would not be in a happy long-term relationship with him even if he's divorced, and I also began to see all the lies/ deceptions/ manipulations he had been stringing me along with. But my primary reason for wanting to end it to start out with was that I would like to be a better person, who isn't part of cheating or deceit. I am never going to have an affair again, I am quite sure of it. Therefore I consider myself a REFORMED OW. But of course you can consider me any which way you'd like, it's your perogative.

This begins a whole new question! And I ask it in all honesty and without maliciousness. Are you "reformed" because you thought you were doing something bad? And did you feel you were doing something bad after he decided to end it? I'm sorry, I have not read each and every one of your posts, but I am really curious.

 

I believe as Je Ne Regrette Rien that we all learn valuable things with each and every relationship whether it is romantic or not. I believe the rel you had with MM is what made you a better person. Don't you think? You may never have learned all this about yourself without having had him in your life.

[White Flower]

I agree WF. Assumption is the load an OW has to bear in many circumstances. But I remember throughout - until someone has walked a mile in my shoes, they will fail to see the decisions I have made and the reasons for them.

 

Nadia is not a "reformed" character in my opinion. She made a decision for herself and if she is happy with that decision then that is all well and good for her. However, since I don't see affairs as "rights and wrongs" in most circumstances, I cannot see how someone can become "reformed" OW. Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person Nadia, I am using you as an example of an OW who has ended her affair rather than concentrating personally on your situation.

 

We grow, we learn and by god, our situations certainly provide us with learning materials about ourselves and our relationships with other people! But I refuse to think of my affair as downright wrong, because at the end of the day, those for whom I have respect for and whom I love can judge my situation, but I am without doubt my own harshest critic.

I feel, too, that I am my own harshest critic. Have you ever read, Journey of Souls? Check it out. It's by Dr. Michael Newton.

Good post!

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

JNRR:

Nadia is not a "reformed" character in my opinion. She made a decision for herself and if she is happy with that decision then that is all well and good for her. However, since I don't see affairs as "rights and wrongs" in most circumstances, I cannot see how someone can become "reformed" OW. Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person Nadia, I am using you as an example of an OW who has ended her affair rather than concentrating personally on your situation.

 

I didn't take offense. But I would like to state that the biggest reason I ended my affair was because I realized I was doing the wrong thing. I could not wake up in the morning or look at myself in the mirror without feeling like I was doing the wrong thing. A benefit of deciding to do the right thing was that I was enlightened about the true status of my "relationship" (aka affair) and I saw things in a whole new life -- like the fact that he wasn't a good person and wasn't good for me, anyway, and the fact that I would not be in a happy long-term relationship with him even if he's divorced, and I also began to see all the lies/ deceptions/ manipulations he had been stringing me along with. But my primary reason for wanting to end it to start out with was that I would like to be a better person, who isn't part of cheating or deceit. I am never going to have an affair again, I am quite sure of it. Therefore I consider myself a REFORMED OW. But of course you can consider me any which way you'd like, it's your perogative.

 

Indeed it is my prerogative, as it is yours Nadia. If your affair was not right for you and you see improving yourself by not continuing within an affair, then I'm happy for you to have reconciled that with yourself.

 

I dislike the word "reformed". It's a loaded word used alongside connations of "reformed criminal" or "reformed alcoholic" and I don't put (most) OW in those categories. But that's just me being snippy with loaded language.

 

That you would not have been happy in a long term relationship with MM if he had divorced is an interesting point - are you saying your R would not have lasted anyway regardless of his marital status?

 

From my perspective, I don't believe my situation is wrong. I am a good, caring person and I am strong enough to know that being an OW is not my defining characteristic, it is only part of me. When I look in the mirror, I see me, with all of my flaws and all of my pain and all of my happiness. It is not the essence of what makes me a good person or a bad person. It is what it is.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

I feel, too, that I am my own harshest critic. Have you ever read, Journey of Souls? Check it out. It's by Dr. Michael Newton.

Good post!

 

I haven't WF, I'll check it out on amazon since you have recommended it