Selfish sex? (men's thoughts welcome)

[figleaf]

I'm so frustrated. It seems like my fiance has time for everything except for making love. If he comes to bed while I'm awake he usually wants to watch a movie and doesn't ever act like I could ever be more interesting than what's going on on screen. Then he falls asleep. Or he just falls asleep immediately, sans movie. IF we have sex it seems like he just wants to get it over quickly with with maximum pleasure for himself.

 

The most frustrating part is that he is very open about his appreciation of sex. He glorifies his sexual past, all the women he's been with and how he's satisfied them with crazy sex. He almost broke up with me once since our engagement, saying he was afraid that he couldn't make me orgasm. Given the past sexual prowess that he drones on about, he said he felt very threatened. In retrospect, I can draw a clear connection between his very real inability to make me orgasm and an initial insecurity of mine about his past sexual experiences. More recently I saw pictures of some of his more serious old girlfriends, and I don't feel so bad. (They were really nothing special...I was actually surprised he had been attracted to them). But until I realized he wasn't comparing me to all of his so-called-amazing exes, I felt alot of pressure to perform in bed, be ultra-sexy, etc., and I really didn't relax and enjoy sex like I can now.

 

So we had decided to try to resolve the orgasm issue in two ways: (1) I would relax and try to feel secure and (2) I would tell him more explicitly what satisfied me so he could improve his technique. I feel like I've made serious progress on the first point on my own, but if we never have sex (and even then, 60 seconds of it), how can I tell him what feels good?! To be fair, he has given me one AMAZING orgasm since our conversation almost two months ago...but just one. I don't expect him to focus on me all the time, and I'm sure I communicated that to him. But it might be nice to get some undivided attention someday (or feel like we're doing something together).

 

Other factors include: he's gained weight lately, just quit smoking and is starting his own company (which comes with a certain level of stress). And, admittedly, this isn't a sexless relationship, since we have sex maybe twice a week. But it's unfulfilling sex. We haven't even been together for a year yet. And I'm not unattractive. Or unclean. And he says he loves me. So what the ****? He doesn't want to talk about this because it threatens him. ???

[Mr. Lucky]

I'm so frustrated. It seems like my fiance has time for everything except for making love.

Well, you lost me in the second sentence there when you said he was you fiance. Maybe it's just me, but isn't courtship and engagement a process where you rule out people that aren't compatible with your basic wants and needs? Not only does your BF not satisfy you, but he doesn't even care that he's not getting the job done. And he won't talk about it becasue it threatens HIM???

 

Do you want to sign up for 50 more years of this ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Annacabana]

Mr Lucky is right on! Your boyfriend is selfish. He doesn't care if you are satisfied. Marriage will not change him either. He may feel threatened because it is a reflection on him that he doesn't want to put forth the effort to make sure you pleased.

[DazedandConfused66]

I'm a man. I've been married 20 years. You wanted a man's opinion so here goes.

 

I'm so frustrated. It seems like my fiance has time for everything except for making love.

 

Then you should read this as a serious warning sign that if he's not interested in your needs during the engagement, there isn't much you've got to look forward to after the marriage either.

 

The most frustrating part is that he is very open about his appreciation of sex. He glorifies his sexual past, all the women he's been with and how he's satisfied them with crazy sex.

 

Guess what? Men LIE. ESPECIALLY about sex. ESPECIALLY about sex with past women, ESPECIALLY by overemphasizing what a stud we were, how much our past flings have literally been swinging off our phallic symbols of our mating prowess. Men LIE about this more than we lie about how your butt looks in your jeans or how we adore your new hair style.

 

And do you know WHY we lie about our past sexual performances? Because we believe, given how well this worked in the locker room in the 10th grade, that you'll respect us more as MEN, MANLY MEN, if you think WE think we are gods gift to women.

 

OK, I'm going a bit over the top here, but not by much. Truth is, men lie about past sexual performance largely because we suffer severe insecurities about current sexual performances and we hope you'll just play all dumb and assuage our ego's by telling us, just like all the past ex's, that we really ARE great in bed. A man with real and genuine confidence in his sexual ability has ZERO reason to brag about anything he's done in the past....because he'll just prove his ability to satisfy your needs. Why talk about the glory days when you can demonstrate them right now?

 

You may be insecure because of what he has SAID, but he's insecure because of what he can't do.

 

He almost broke up with me once since our engagement, saying he was afraid that he couldn't make me orgasm. Given the past sexual prowess that he drones on about, he said he felt very threatened.

 

Male translation: "I suck in bed and I'm not really sure why sticking it in and out of your Temple of the Golden Himalaya's doesn't work with you because it works just fine for me. So it's YOUR fault, not mine and I'm gonna take my pecker and go home if you don't learn to enjoy it like I do."

 

This is called, in intellectual circles, "bull****." Don't believe a word of it. He's fairly inexperienced and hasn't had any women tell him this yet...including you.

 

In retrospect, I can draw a clear connection between his very real inability to make me orgasm and an initial insecurity of mine about his past sexual experiences.

 

The insecurity part is real enough. But he just infected you with his....it's called blame transference. Classic psychological method of projecting his fears onto you so that he can feel better about himself.

 

I feel like I've made serious progress on the first point on my own, but if we never have sex (and even then, 60 seconds of it), how can I tell him what feels good?! To be fair, he has given me one AMAZING orgasm since our conversation almost two months ago...but just one. I don't expect him to focus on me all the time, and I'm sure I communicated that to him. But it might be nice to get some undivided attention someday (or feel like we're doing something together).

 

ONE orgasm???? TWO months ago? My dear, if I don't give my wife at least 3 orgasms 3-4X a week, and she's on all kinds of serious meds for cancer treatment that makes me really have to WORK at this, I feel like I've let her down!!!! What kind of guy is this? Seriously, save yourself the heartbreak of a life of misery with this dude, buy a good quality Rabbit vibrator and go find someone who will actually WORK at pleasing you. If a man doesn't work at pleasing you in bed, something that men universally enjoy, what makes you think he's going to be interested in trying to please you as a husband, a father, a life partner, domestic partner, etc?

 

Other factors include: he's gained weight lately, just quit smoking and is starting his own company (which comes with a certain level of stress).

 

Valid SYMPTOMS that could contribute to lack of performance in the sack and overall lack of interest. But again....see all the above. This tells me that he's finding his emotional fulfillment everywhere ELSE but with you. I was a workaholic once. I invested more time in my business than I did in my marriage. And do you know where that led me? I almost had an affair with a woman who worked for me because she was always where I was and I was never at home with my wife. I didn't go there, stopped it and discussed everything with my wife. But guess where your fiancee is likely headed? If all of this is your fault and he diverts his frustrations by throwing himself into work, etc.....he's headed down the wrong path. The one that does NOT lead to your marriage bed.

 

He doesn't want to talk about this because it threatens him. ???

 

This is the only thing you've said that sounds like there's hope. You GET it at least. He's threatened by you and so is making crap up to make this your problem in the hopes that he'll avoid any conflict.

 

Pre-marriage counseling or the rabbit vibrator path. Take your pick. He's got issues. And don't let him make those YOUR issues.

[michelangelo]

I may be missing something here. But I tend to think that each person is responsible for pursuing their own orgasm(s).

 

What are you doing to make sure he knows what makes you climax? and more so, that he does it?

 

Are you passive during sex, waiting for him to act? Why do you not make the first move before the tv rules the bedroom?

 

I think he needs to step up to make sex more satisfying, as much as it is in his power to do so. However, that same task is for you to do as well.

 

If it turns out he can't make you come with a look ma, no hands approach, then you have to retrain him--show him what works for you.

[figleaf]

Do you want to sign up for 50 more years of this ?

 

Mr. Lucky...Great question. I guess I'm trying to work through this with him because I still have a feeling that there might be a way to get past it. I know he loves me and I have a hard time believing he is just lazy and selfish and that there isn't something else behind this. He loved sex with me before we moved in together. Like Michelangelo said, I don't want to give up before I take my responsibility for working on things myself. It might be naive of me, but I want to try. If it doesn't work then, you're right, I don't think I could go through with a wedding.

[figleaf]

Sorry, I got interrupted during my first reply.

 

What are you doing to make sure he knows what makes you climax? and more so, that he does it? Are you passive during sex, waiting for him to act? Why do you not make the first move before the tv rules the bedroom?

 

Michelangelo, you're right. I do have a responsibility. In terms of initiating sex before the movies come on, I did used to do that before our conversation about him not making me orgasm. I got rejected plenty, which hurts but I can live with it. After our conversation, I've been hesitant to initiate because he told him he used to cringe whenever I kissed him, just imagining the pressure that was on him to please me. I don't want to make him feel that way, so now I cuddle, kiss and make a sexy move or two but don't go any further. I don't know how to get past that.

 

In terms of letting him know what I want, I admit I have not done enough (either before or after our conversation). I did him that I don't easily orgasm just from vaginal sex and I need some more direct stimulation. He made me feel like a bit of a freak for saying that (He said directly that it wasn't my fault and I shouldn't feel bad but the implication was that he's been with ALL these women who've never had that problem so...ahem, I wonder if he knows how many were faking). Anyway, I guess I don't know how to straddle the fine line between being guiding and dictating in bed. I do say, "yes, yes, there...", etc. but I guess I'm afraid (and I know I'll get some criticism for this confession) that it won't be attractive to him if I get more explicit about what I want. But I haven't challenged that assumption, so it remains a fear that may have no substance. My bad. I can imagine exactly what to say...I guess I should just say it and see what happens.

 

Thanks for being realistic.

[serial muse]

I think Dazed is right on the money here. This guy has serious insecurity issues about sex and his prowess as a lover, and women faking it with him (I agree with you - at least some of them were, since the majority of women can't have an orgasm without direct clitoral stimulation) didn't help.

 

His insecurity sounds like it runs really deep - and obviously it's affecting his drive. I'm sure he worries himself all the time about whether you'll even enjoy it, which leads to a lackluster effort, and then of course you don't enjoy it. I'm not saying it's all him - but you do seem to know what you can contribute to make it better, and it doesn't seem like he's accepting his share of the responsibility. Some people just can't handle the idea that sex doesn't have to be magic every time right off the bat, but that you can learn about each others' bodies and signals and create a healthy sex life together.

 

Seeing as you guys are engaged, I'd advise counselling as the first step. If he won't even consider that, then you should reconsider your plans to marry him. If he can't accept that there are things he could improve, too, and doesn't want to hear your side of it fairly, then that's a huge red flag for a marriage.

[DazedandConfused66]

After our conversation, I've been hesitant to initiate because he told him he used to cringe whenever I kissed him, just imagining the pressure that was on him to please me. I don't want to make him feel that way, so now I cuddle, kiss and make a sexy move or two but don't go any further. I don't know how to get past that.

 

You are being a doormat. That's highly insensitive of him to say that the mere act of kissing puts "undue pressure" on him to perform.

 

 

 

I did him that I don't easily orgasm just from vaginal sex and I need some more direct stimulation. He made me feel like a bit of a freak for saying that (He said directly that it wasn't my fault and I shouldn't feel bad but the implication was that he's been with ALL these women who've never had that problem so...ahem, I wonder if he knows how many were faking).

 

He's clueless and, again, blaming you for his insecurities. Uterine orgasms can and do happen, but not for every woman. What are the chances he's slept with ONLY women who can attain orgasm from the old in-and-out. He's lying, he's clueless and he wants you to feel shame and guilt over HIS issues. That is NOT love....that's called being a prick.

 

Anyway, I guess I don't know how to straddle the fine line between being guiding and dictating in bed. I do say, "yes, yes, there...", etc. but I guess I'm afraid (and I know I'll get some criticism for this confession) that it won't be attractive to him if I get more explicit about what I want.

 

I suggest that pre-marital counseling will help you learn to communicate with each other better in ALL aspects of your relationship. Otherwise, talking about something so intimate like sex will be completely beyond your grasp with him. Sex is part of the marriage, but the ability to share ANYTHING with one another in a non-threatening and non-confrontational manner is the FOUNDATION of the marriage. It takes work and effort on BOTH parties part....and as long as he's laying all of this on you, he's saying loud and clear "You aren't worth it to me....you do everything and I'll consider whether or not you are worth any effort to me."

 

Again, that's not love.

[Mustang Sally]

I may be missing something here. But I tend to think that each person is responsible for pursuing their own orgasm(s).

Amen, baby!

Thanks for saying that before I could!

 

Now, that being said, I have to also say, that I think I would feel I'd died and gone to heaven if I could find a man that could give me an orgasm every now and again...but I guess that's another story...

 

So, my point is, that maybe you need to just "take the bull by the horn(s)," OP and give yourself some orgasms during sex. That way, your partner can learn from you, and (hopefully) improve his own ego-issues about sex with you by seeing you obviously enjoying yourself while you are with him. He could be the exception to this rule, but I don't know of any men who wouldn't like it to see their woman pleasuring themself to orgasm during intercourse.

[serial muse]

So, my point is, that maybe you need to just "take the bull by the horn(s)," OP and give yourself some orgasms during sex. That way, your partner can learn from you, and (hopefully) improve his own ego-issues about sex with you by seeing you obviously enjoying yourself while you are with him. He could be the exception to this rule, but I don't know of any men who wouldn't like it to see their woman pleasuring themself to orgasm during intercourse.

 

Thing is, Mustang, I get the sense that that might only make it worse. This is not a man who will be okay with her doing it herself and bypassing him. This is a man who wants his ego stroked about how good he is in bed, and the turnoff for him is that he's not doing it for her. Never mind that he's not that interested in figuring out how he could do it for her. He wants to do it his way, and it isn't working, and it sounds a lot like he just wants to take his Toy and go home.

[reboot]

I don't know of any men who wouldn't like it to see their woman pleasuring themself to orgasm during intercourse.

Preach on sister. That is an *incredible* turn on to me.

[Mustang Sally]

Oh, and for what it's worth?

 

Your fiance sounds like my husband, when he was much younger.

At least as far as the "I've slept with all these women, and they ALL had orgasm after orgasm with me...so what the hell is your problem?" He is a rather (over) confident guy, and his thoughts on his own bedroom-prowess are no exception...

 

Anyway, my point is that you are exactly right (as are many other posters) that the women before him were likely faking it (or he just plain wasn't PAYING ATTENTION) and look where that got him and you? A guy who is not a very good lover.

 

I would finally like to say to you to really be cautious about getting into a life-long relationship with someone that you have significant sexual incompatibilities with. For some, it may end up not being that big of a deal...but for many, it ends up being WAY bigger of a deal than maybe you ever imagined. Take it from me - I know of what I speak.

 

Good luck!

[Mustang Sally]

Thing is, Mustang, I get the sense that that might only make it worse. This is not a man who will be okay with her doing it herself and bypassing him. This is a man who wants his ego stroked about how good he is in bed, and the turnoff for him is that he's not doing it for her. Never mind that he's not that interested in figuring out how he could do it for her. He wants to do it his way, and it isn't working, and it sounds a lot like he just wants to take his Toy and go home.

You may be right.

 

In which case he's not actually a man, he's a little boy.

 

And she needs to move on.

 

Next!

[serial muse]

By the way, I agree that if they were both more experienced and comfortable and confident in their sexuality then she should definitely just show him what she likes. I think someone who is less concerned about his own performance, and more just into the mood, would of course find a woman pleasuring herself a turn-on. But it doesn't sound like that's where he is.

 

I also think it's a good idea, OP, for you to figure out what does work for you, on your own. That might give you more confidence - yes, you can orgasm and you're not broken! - and might help a bit.

 

But, bottom line, he's going to have to come to the table too, if they're going to figure it out in a lasting way.

[michelangelo]

It's how you approach it. I really do not agree that the OG's fiance will be angry with her if she diddles her clit while they make love.

 

But i suppose she could anticipate potential trouble if he gets all insecure and questioning about it.

 

Have ammunition nearby. A magazine article on how many normal women need to do this. A sex manual, a DVD that shows this, etc.

 

So worst case scenario, the sex stops, he's dismissive of the good information. Then she knows that marriage to him will be unsatisfying forever. Then she can cancel the wedding and move on.

 

Best case scenario: the OG gets to havre orgasms during sex with the man she loves and it is not a problem for her to pleasure herself during intercourse.

[IamASelfishSOB]

First off. I'm a selfish SOB, because I am a recovering cheater in my marriage. In fact, I think I will start every post with "Hi, my name is IamASelfishSOB and I am a cheater." I hope that my wife does not consider me a selfish lover.

 

I'm so frustrated. It seems like my fiance has time for everything except for making love. If he comes to bed while I'm awake he usually wants to watch a movie and doesn't ever act like I could ever be more interesting than what's going on on screen. Then he falls asleep. Or he just falls asleep immediately, sans movie. IF we have sex it seems like he just wants to get it over quickly with with maximum pleasure for himself.

You have every right to be frustrated, if this is true.

 

The most frustrating part is that he is very open about his appreciation of sex. He glorifies his sexual past, all the women he's been with and how he's satisfied them with crazy sex.

This is doubtful considering that the vast majority of women don't have orgasms with vaginal intercourse, at the very least not in 60 seconds.

 

He almost broke up with me once since our engagement, saying he was afraid that he couldn't make me orgasm. Given the past sexual prowess that he drones on about, he said he felt very threatened.

I have no idea what to make of this other than he has a pretty big problem if he feels threatened by your lack of orgasm, especially considering the fact that it sounds like HE'S NOT EVEN TRYING.

 

In retrospect, I can draw a clear connection between his very real inability to make me orgasm and an initial insecurity of mine about his past sexual experiences.

OK, I think I can give some input here. My wife was very similar to you in this respect. I had multiple sexual partners prior to dating my wife. My wife was very sexually inexperienced. She also was threatened by the fact that I was more experienced. Unlike your boyfriend (or perhaps maybe not), very few of my experiences were what I would consider "successes". On a couple of occasions, I was extremely nervous and couldn't perform at all, and a few others I came extremely quickly. Of the times where neither of this happened, looking back, I wouldn't say that I did a good job of satisfying my partner, necessarily. I made sure my wife was aware of this.

 

Where my wife was concerned, I was very comfortable in our relationship (probably because I knew she was much less experienced) and never had any difficulties. The first few years of our relationship (we've been together for 19 years), she was net getting much out of our sex-life. I would make an attempt at satisfying her, but we weren't communicating, so it wasn't working. Like you, she spoke up and we worked together on it and started communicating about it. She knew that she should be having orgasms and wasn't and wondered if there was something wrong with her. Through a little research (the internet wasn't as prevalent in those days), we found that this was a very normal occurance.

 

Not that the lack of a female orgasm should be considered a failure, but the fact that I had been uncomfortable about some of my shortfalls in the past made it very understandable that pressure from me or blame of any kind would be extremely counterproductive. Things began to improve remarkably fast. We would try as long as she wanted to. It was totally her call always. I always reassured her that it was never any kind of inconvenience to me and that I, in fact, loved the fact that she wanted it and that it was something that I could do for her. If it didn't happen, it didn't happen and sometimes it didn't. We never made a big deal about it.

 

Practically everything I know about sex, my wife and I learned together and we are still learning today. It sounds like your boyfriend obviously has a lot to learn as well. I can't imagine television would be more intriguing than sitting down with a book on sex or a video series (not porn necessarily) to him, and if it is, you may want to kick him to the curb.

 

More recently I saw pictures of some of his more serious old girlfriends, and I don't feel so bad. (They were really nothing special...I was actually surprised he had been attracted to them).

It is amazing what a man will have sex with, eh?

 

But until I realized he wasn't comparing me to all of his so-called-amazing exes, I felt alot of pressure to perform in bed, be ultra-sexy, etc., and I really didn't relax and enjoy sex like I can now.

Until recently I thought relaxing and enjoying it was probably the key, but since I have become convinced that an emotional attachment to your lover is equally or perhaps more important to women. Shows what I know. I do think that the man's attitude toward your orgasm has to be important, though, but the women here can probably give you a better idea.

 

So we had decided to try to resolve the orgasm issue in two ways: (1) I would relax and try to feel secure and (2) I would tell him more explicitly what satisfied me so he could improve his technique. I feel like I've made serious progress on the first point on my own, but if we never have sex (and even then, 60 seconds of it), how can I tell him what feels good?! To be fair, he has given me one AMAZING orgasm since our conversation almost two months ago...but just one. I don't expect him to focus on me all the time, and I'm sure I communicated that to him. But it might be nice to get some undivided attention someday (or feel like we're doing something together).

It sounds like the message to him didn't get across very loud or very clear. I don't understand his disinterest.... honestly.

 

Other factors include: he's gained weight lately, just quit smoking and is starting his own company (which comes with a certain level of stress). And, admittedly, this isn't a sexless relationship, since we have sex maybe twice a week. But it's unfulfilling sex.

This won't do. You will only end up resenting him.

 

We haven't even been together for a year yet. And I'm not unattractive. Or unclean. And he says he loves me. So what the ****?

Sounds like you're already resenting him.

 

He doesn't want to talk about this because it threatens him. ???

If this is true, then he has a much bigger problem than you.... seriously. I'd give it another shot. Have a calm, but serious conversation about it and if he then doesn't respond then I'd have to say that you are SOL and need to find a different lover.

[figleaf]

Thanks everybody for the replies.

 

First, I want to say, Dazedandconfused, I admire your commitment to your wife’s pleasure and am VERY envious! Second, your comments really struck a cord. And scared me. Because it made me realize what I haven’t been wanting to admit to myself – That this isn’t just a sexual problem. He has infected me with his insecurities…and not just in the bedroom. He often tells me I’m naïve and wrong about a lot of things (my assessment of other people and social situations, mostly, but also the way I do everyday tasks and even how I view my own self-esteem). I’ve soundly proven him wrong on most of his criticisms, but I guess that doesn’t mean he won’t continue to have that attitude, because it is the blame transference you mentioned. [i had a couple of examples but just started crying and erased them because it's a bigger can of worms that I have the heart to open here.] I’ve always seen myself as a pretty confident person, but even looking back at my last reply to Michelangelo, I realize a timidity has crept in in terms of standing up for myself in this relationship.

 

Now, for those who suggested I should reach my own orgasms – I do touch myself during sex (and I can give myself great orgasms when I'm by myself). But that doesn’t work very often. Either the sex just doesn’t last long enough, period, or he changes positions in a way that makes it impossible for me to stimulate myself. I guess, though, I should be more forceful about insisting on my time? I have been afraid, like serial muse was saying, that it might be a turn-OFF to him if I pull away and get off in front of him. My last boyfriend loved that, but my fiancé likes to be in control. Again, maybe I should just try and see what happens.

 

Update: We just had a conversation about this. We actually had some nice long sex in the shower this afternoon (I finally succeeded in getting him away from a video game on the pretext of Halloween!!!). I was a bit more direct this time in guiding his hands. And I guided him into going down on me. But that lasted for 10 seconds. And then I asked him to wait for me to orgasm, but he said nothing and just finished. Afterwards I told him I was frustrated and felt like nothing had changed since our conversation. He agreed. He told me he’d been too tired and stressed to work on his side of things (I’m still not sure how that applies to his lackluster effort tonight but I didn’t want to criticize what had just happened, cause it was much more that I’ve gotten in a long time). I told him we should make some time before he got too exhausted from his work and gadgets to spend time together in bed. He thought that was okay. I realized later that I don’t know if he got the specific point I made about working on giving me pleasure (We have a language problem – His mother tongue is French, mine English - So sometimes slang slips through and I realized he might not have understood the phrase “go down on me” – I’ll have to clarify that.). Anyway, I don’t necessarily feel any better after this conversation. He kept saying, “I know you’re unsatisfied with me”, to which I kept replying, “It’s not about me being unsatisfied. I love you. This is about making this better for both of us. I know we can do it, we just have to find what works.” I don’t know if he got that my concern is for both of us, not just me (note: generally I don’t make a big deal out of it if I don’t orgasm during sex…this is the first time I’ve brought it up right after). But I guess I should give him a few days to decide if he wants to act on what we talked about.

 

PS – IamaselfishSOB – Your response to your wife is exactly what I’m looking for with my fiancé (and not seeing, yet) – Reassurance, time, attention. Big kudos to you! Also, about emotional attachment being a turn-on: YES, I agree that for women, at least, emotional attachment is really important. And my emotional attachment to my fiancé is waning, because I have started to resent him a bit, as you also suggested. I’m less able to “let go” during sex because I don’t feel the emotional complicity that I felt with him before. But, on the flipside, I’m sure he feels the same way.

[Mr. Lucky]

I realized later that I don’t know if he got the specific point I made about working on giving me pleasure (We have a language problem – His mother tongue is French, mine English - So sometimes slang slips through and I realized he might not have understood the phrase “go down on me” – I’ll have to clarify that.)

He sounds clueless beyond any "English as my second language" context. Per your postings, he:

 

- didn't understand that his previous GF were not satisfied with 3 minutes of thrusting

 

- doesn't understand the nature or depth of your dis-satisfaction

 

- won't follow your input on how to make things better

 

He seems emotionally immature and narcissistic. Just my opinion, but probably not the best candidate for marriage...

 

Mr. Lucky

[serial muse]

re: bypassing vs. including - I think the point I was trying to make is that that's a perception issue, and it's not just up to her, if you see what I mean. Let's say she masturbates during sex as a way to improve their sex life together by ensuring they're both enjoying it, and he interprets it as a dig at his manliness. (For example.) I mean, this is a thing that might happen, and this is the kind of guy it might happen to. I'm not saying that IS what's going on, I'm saying that the signs don't look great to me.

 

The point about including vs. bypassing works both ways, you know. Every person may be "responsible" for his/her own orgasm, but when a loving couple is having sex together (whether intercourse, oral sex, mutual masturbation, BDSM, etc. etc.) each person is also responsible for paying attention to their partner's needs and enjoyment and helping to keep the mood one of sharing and sexiness and openness. So is he holding up his end here (no pun intended), by including her rather than bypassing her? Sure doesn't look like it.

[DazedandConfused66]

figleaf,

 

I still think you've got some fairly elephant-sized issues to address before you tie the knot, however, I think there is one very important thing you have to work with here....a willingness to try almost anything to "train" him to better understand your needs. That goes a long ways.

 

To be blunt, he's going to have to share an equal part of the effort here or this will be in vain. But there is nothing wrong in demonstrating the amount of effort that is required YOURSELF first, and possibly, this will motivate him to change. I definitely would not get married without there being some significant changes here, but if you are willing to try, it's possible he could change prior to the nuptials.

 

You mentioned several things here that I think need to be understood, however.

 

1) "pulled him away from his videogame" Please elaborate. You've already mentioned him coming to bed to watch a movie rather than spend time directly talking/sharing/having sex with you. Does he pursue other hobbies as well as having a high-stress job? Sex is, as you likely know, one of the very best stress relievers there is. For him to turn to other things to relieve stress is a big no-no when he's got a willing and eager spouse right there wanting to help him relieve that stress. Do videogames eat up a chunk of time in his week?

 

2) His response of "you aren't satisfied with me," while accurate, is yet another blame transference symptom. Note that he didn't say "I'm just not meeting my committments to you," or "I'm just not doing my part." I'm not arguing semantics here....this really is more of the blame transference issue we discussed earlier. If he's giving voice to things that use the words "you aren't" in any fashion, he's not internalized ownership of his share of the problem. You did the right thing by pushing back here, but as long as you are hearing him voice his defense this way, particularly if he's pursuing other stress-relieving hobbies, then he's not really made any committments to change. I realize you may have a bit of a language barrier, but his words and actions should communicate his true willingness to change.

 

3) You actually did very well not critiquing his performance in the shower. The best thing to do when you want to have specific sex-related discussions is to discuss them when you are NOT having sex. That takes all the pressure off of him to perform "on the fly." Plant the seeds of what you want during non-sexual discussions.....over coffee in the morning, while driving somewhere, etc. Sometimes, it's easier for a man to process an emotional conversation when he's doing something...like driving, eating, light duty type of stuff. You may also find it appropriate to send him off to work with a small note tucked away somewhere he'll see it, something loving but also sexy, describing to him how you'd love to feel his tongue on your clit, or how you can't wait to feel his shoulders under your hands while he slowly moves on top of you. Reinforce the behaviors you want, but do so in a very non-threatening way. And one more thing....the shower idea was actually very clever of you. Try and seduce him during times OTHER than when he gets home tired from work. Morning bj's are always a nice way to send him out the door, and it may just send the message that you want him at any time of the day. Not sure how far away he works from you, but trying to set up little lunch dates is always a nice connection point....if things go well, you could even go so far as to pick a hotel room nearby for a nooner.

 

Again, if you are willing to work at it before the marriage date, this is salvageable. He's got some major growing up to do, and I wouldn't choose this person as your life partner under these current conditions. But you've nothing to lose by attempting to exhibit behaviors NOW that you'd like him to emulate as well. As he's insecure and practices blame transference already, you'd be AMAZED at how easy that personality adapts to stronger, more "alpha" oriented behaviors as well. Rather than just shove a mirror in front of him to show him the insecurities he's feeling, put a stronger image there that demonstrates behaviors he SHOULD be emulating instead.

 

-BUT-....and you knew there was one here.....

 

Set yourself a limit and a boundary. If he doesn't show significant changes at some point prior to the wedding date, you shouldn't proceed. You will not change this person after the wedding date. You need to see him willing to make these changes himself prior.

 

Good luck....I admire your willingness to try.

[figleaf]

Dazedandconfused:

 

1)Yes, videogames are what he does in his free time and he will play them for hours in a week, mostly at night when I’d like him to come to bed with me. You’re right that he uses it as a stress-reliever; he always says, “I’m sorry babe, but I really need that time to relax.” And I resent that very much, because I see our time together as my stress reliever and I never get it. I’ve always enjoyed that downtime with my partner before bed (with or without sex) to talk, cuddle, etc. and I’ve tried a lot of different ways of “seducing” him away from those games and work so we can have that time. I really, really try not to nag. But I’ve offered him a massage if he’ll come to bed. Or I’ve put on sexy lingerie (which at one point he asked me to wear more of) and come into the office (we both work from home and so our desks are there too), teased him a little and asked him to come to bed. Many times, even though he’s playing a game, he’ll say, “I really need to send a work email. I’ll just do it and come.” Then he’ll procrastinate on the email, play the game for another hour or two and then come to bed exhausted or when I’m already asleep. Lately he’s said a few times, “Every time I want to make love to you I fall asleep or you fall asleep.” My answer has been (and I’ve tried saying this in a fun and mischievous way although in my mind I’m thinking, “duh”), “Well, we’ll have to make some time for that when we’re both not exhausted.” When I’ve brought up that I feel like he puts more effort into his work, gadgets and videogames than into spending time together, he says that (1) he needs that time to unwind, (2) he has gotten that complaint from past girlfriends (great sign, right?) and he’s glad he puts time into figuring out the latest web development tool (for example), because the girls are gone but he’ll always have that technical knowledge. I know the latter sounds horrible. But I can also recognize that it is a defensive response to him feeling threatened. I don’t think he actually feels that way, but there’s something there that makes him turn to videogames instead of me (or maybe anyone, ever) and he’s insecure that I’ve pinpointed that and am labeling it as not normal (which it isn’t, like you said Dazedandconfused!). But I want to understand further and don’t know how to get him to open up! Why would someone prefer videogames to their partner?!

 

 

2)THANK YOU for your suggestion that I project a stronger image. That makes total sense. Being accommodating and hesitant doesn’t work (that’s, unfortunately, been my MO so far). So you’re right, I don’t have anything to lose by being assertive.

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

Dump that loser right now.

 

He is never going to give you good sex.

 

He doesn't care.

 

Ariadne

[michaelk]

I don’t think he actually feels that way, but there’s something there that makes him turn to videogames instead of me (or maybe anyone, ever) and he’s insecure that I’ve pinpointed that and am labeling it as not normal (which it isn’t, like you said Dazedandconfused!). But I want to understand further and don’t know how to get him to open up! Why would someone prefer videogames to their partner?!

 

This is something I have direct experience with, so maybe I can provide some insights. My wife and I have been together for nearly 20 years, and I have on many occasions stayed up playing a game, or fiddling with some other technology, leaving my wife to fall asleep by herself. I've learned this is something I've got to make a conscious effort to improve on. In the evening, after the kids are in bed, I now make the effort to lay down in bed with her and talk and/or have sex before she falls asleep. Then I go off and do what I need to do for me.

 

Why do I need that time by myself, and why can't my wife provide the same thing? Because I've always had insecurities when it comes to interacting with other people. Very early on, this led me to withdraw into myself; I guess you could call me an introvert. But people who meet me would never use that label, because I am very articulate and even charming when I want to be. This doesn't mean that they get access to the real me though!

 

So engaging people takes energy. I'm always on the lookout to make sure I don't say the wrong thing and offend someone or come off looking stupid. After several hours of doing this, at work or a party, my emotional energy is drained and all I want is some 'me time'. This is when the television, computer, or a book comes into the picture. I 'recharge my batteries' by spending time inside my own head for a while. I've actually talked to a therapist about this need for 'me time', and he seems to feel it's perfectly fine, provided I'm not avoiding the relationships in my life. (As for the introversion, that's something we're working on! )

 

Another aspect of my insecurities manifests as perfectionism. If I do something, I've got to show that I'm really good at it. A half-assed job will never do. And when it comes to criticism, I've really had to learn how to deal properly with it. My wife will tell you that anything she says that comes off as a negative comment on me (to my ears) has in the past been met with defensiveness. This is also something that I'm working on, although I'm much better than I used to be.

 

Until recently, relaxing in bed with my wife and talking could never be considered 'me time'. She is the closest person in my life, yet I still had to keep some kind of protective barrier up even with her. More recently, we've gone through some rocky times (in the marriage) and have both learned to open up more. This is difficult to do, and sometimes we are much more emotional with each other than we ever have been, so it still takes energy - in fact more energy than keeping barriers up - but afterwards we find we always feel so much better! And it won't substitute for needing time to myself, but it does allow me to be more connected with my wife and spend a little less time on the computer.

 

Based on what you've said, your partner sounds like he's similar to me. He's pursuing non-social interests, and he's defensive when you want to talk about an area where he lacks confidence. He's hiding behind his protective barrier, which in this case consists of a set of falsehoods (which he may well believe) regarding his sexual prowess. This prevents him from having to admit that he's scared to death of you knowing just how inadequate he feels. He needs to deal with these issues now. Don't wait for years of marriage to pass by before you realize what a toll this takes on your relationship. If he wants you to be his wife, he needs to learn how to open up to you and trust that you will love him even though he has some learning to do in bed. Or you will have to resign yourself to being held at arm's length from him forever.

[figleaf]

Wow Michael. The way you described yourself sounds exactly like my fiance. And it's interesting that you described your social insecurities as well because that's something else I've noticed about him - He also comes across as gregarious and charming, but will avoid social situations and, in private, hints that he thinks everyone (even those I consider our close friends) is out to prove themselves better than him, like he's threatened by every conversation.

 

Another aspect of my insecurities manifests as perfectionism.

 

And this is right on!

 

I've learned this is something I've got to make a conscious effort to improve on.

 

This is what I'm most interested in. How did you become conscious of this? It sounds like you've been to counseling and it might have come out there, but I am wondering if there is anything your wife could have done to gently bring this to light. The reason I ask - We live in a very conservative developing country at the moment. Even if my fiance were to agree to go to counseling, decent services aren't that readily available. And if we found a counselor, I think cultural differences regarding expectations of marriage and sex would make it impossible to make any progress! So, for now, I'm kinda on my own for this!

 

I know you and my fiance aren't exactly the same person, but I'd really love to know what makes you feel open to letting your wife into the 'real you'. And what triggers that feeling. If your wife could have done anything in the past to help you open up, what would it have been? I'm curious about whether, for example, her giving you distance would have been better than her forcing a bit of closeness. Did she ever do anything that made you think, "Wow, she knows me better than I thought"? It may be impossible to answer, but if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them!