reelwoman Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 OK, I got a lot of helpful advice on another thread about a guy I've been seeing. Background: We both recently ( about 6 months) got out of LTRs; his was a very serious one and really did a number on him. We hung out as friends for a few months and then started sleeping together a couple of months ago. He told me he couldn't handle a serious relationship but that he really cares about me and could we "take it one day at a time and see where it goes." He sends me a ton of mixed messages---acts like my boyfriend when we're together, including in public, plans outings and things for us to do together, sometimes months in advance ( got us tix for a series of readings that goes through spring), gets very jealous when he thinks I'm spending time with someone else but then tells me that he doesn't care if I sleep with other people. I asked him a couple of weeks ago how he would characterize our relationship and he said he really can't handle anything serious: I said, well are we dating or what? And he couldn't even say that much. He said that my friendship is very important to him and he doesn't want me to be hurt, and if I'm going to get hurt we should stop sleeping together. Now: Since that conversation, I decided that I can't see him anymore, even just as friends, because I have really strong feelings for him and it's too difficult. Also, he is VERY manipulative and hard to read; he has a real push-pull dynamic and gets serious and tender with me and then turns sarcastic and nasty without blinking an eye. He'll reach out to me and then as soon as I respond positively he'll start deflecting, and visa versa---he'll be nasty and then when I respond negatively, he'll start being sweet and funny and affectionate.I don't like the way that makes me feel at ALL. I do NOT like being so off balance---I don't like games, don't play them, don't like that aspect of his personality. I think this is just who he is with everyone--not just women. He tends to have a lot of fallings-out with people and just seems to protect himself by deflection and humor. Other than that I'm crazy about him, but it's just not worth it. I haven't told him that I don't want to see him anymore, but I haven't initiated any contact. He has been calling and IMing with me constantly though. Last weekend I told him I was booked up all weekend and couldn't see him ( this was in an IM chat) and he said "you're mean" but then we changed the subject. Since then he's been IMing several times a day and calling me a LOT, blew something off he'd planned to do to show up at an event he knew I would be at, suggesting getting together ( I've declined). He could tell I was upset this week during an IM chat ( I didn't say it was about him)and was being incredibly sweet and supportive. Then he left me a message asking if I was still feeling down and wanted to come over and make me soup, but I never returned his call and then the next day he started a chat with me as soon as I came online and he was asking if I was OK, etc, but then he had to sign off. It's very confusing because at times he can be very nasty ( he's very competitive with me at times and will put down my work, stuff like that, or will belittle it or me, and then immediately backpedal and retract when I call him on it or say he was kidding) and at other times very sweet. But I never know where I am with him at all. My question is this: he's giving a poetry reading tomorrow and I told him I would go. He's very insecure and paranoid about people not coming to his readings; his feelings really get hurt. I feel like I should go because if I don't go, he'll assume it's because I'm blowing it off to be mean. I don't really want to go because I don't want to see him. But I also don't want to be hurtful; I don't mind telling him I can't see him one on one but I feel that it would be kind of mean not to go when I know he's expecting me and I know he appreciates my support. Should I go or not? In a way I feel like I should go, to sort of fulfill that obligation, and then next time he contacts me tell him I can't be friends anymore because I just don't feel good about the way things are playing out between us. What do people think? I don't want to send ANY kind of message by going except being a supportive and nice person, and I wouldn't want to send any message by not going either. Should I even care WHAT message I'm sending? Should I just do what I feel like doing ( not going) and not care about hurting his feelings? Thanks and sorry about the length of this post!!
Jack Africa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 " He sends me a ton of mixed messages ....., gets very jealous when he thinks I'm spending time with someone else but then tells me that he doesn't care if I sleep with other people. ---he'll be nasty and then when I respond negatively, he'll start being sweet and funny and affectionate. [ He sounds exactly like my ex Girlfriend. She was a BPD baitch- just like this guy. To the OP - dump her, oops, HIM !.
Author reelwoman Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 [ He sounds exactly like my ex Girlfriend. She was a BPD baitch- just like this guy. To the OP - dump her, oops, HIM !. yeah, VERY controlling in a very weird way...what is BPD? Bi-polar disorder? I guess not even hilarious fun, great conversations, intense intellectual connection, and THE most mindblowing sex of all time can make up for this kind of baggage/game-playing/manipulation...sigh.
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Wow.. wouldn't it be a ball to have him as a BF! I dated a guy that was exactly like your 'friend'. The difference was that at the beginning, he straight away admitted that I was his GF but what a relationship!! For one year I was mentally abused and looking back now, I have no idea what I saw in him! You know, the longer you stick around - even as friends - the more manipulative he's going to be! I don't know about going to the reading. I would probably leave right after his reading so that he knows I was just there to support him and nothing else. Then again, he might take it as I still want and care about him for even being there for that short time. Guys like my ex and this guy are not worth my time. I hope you'd give it a good thought before you make a decision!
Jack Africa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 [ yeah, VERY controlling in a very weird way...what is BPD? Bi-polar disorder? BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder. It is one of the three "Abusive" disorders in Cluster B Axis 2 ( DSM 1V). Read all about it and the other abusine disorders - NPD and Sociopathy. You may recogonize several people that you know. BPD is usually a female disorder - however itdoes land on the occasional male.
Author reelwoman Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder. It is one of the three "Abusive" disorders in Cluster B Axis 2 ( DSM 1V). Read all about it and the other abusine disorders - NPD and Sociopathy. You may recogonize several people that you know. BPD is usually a female disorder - however itdoes land on the occasional male. oh dear....I looked these up and now I think everyone I know---not necessarily excluding myself----is one of these! My guy does seem kinda BPD...very interesting. Thanks for the idea...I am not one of those people who enjoy rescue missions ( in either role, rescuer or rescuee), so I should probably get out fast. Damn! I was so excited when we got together....I thought he was complicated and intense, but perhaps he really is just a nutcase...
Author reelwoman Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 Wow.. wouldn't it be a ball to have him as a BF! I dated a guy that was exactly like your 'friend'. The difference was that at the beginning, he straight away admitted that I was his GF but what a relationship!! For one year I was mentally abused and looking back now, I have no idea what I saw in him! You know, the longer you stick around - even as friends - the more manipulative he's going to be! I don't know about going to the reading. I would probably leave right after his reading so that he knows I was just there to support him and nothing else. Then again, he might take it as I still want and care about him for even being there for that short time. Guys like my ex and this guy are not worth my time. I hope you'd give it a good thought before you make a decision! thanks lyssa----your relationship sounds HORRIBLE and exactly what I'm afraid of. I could see my guy deciding he does want to be in a relationship, because he admitted that it's confusing for him because he doesn't usually sleep with people outside of a relationship, and he wants to be with me, but at the same times knows he can't handle a relationship so soon after his breakup. So I could imagine it just sort of drifting along and becoming something more, but with a LOT of misery and manipulation along the way. In many ways I 'm so attracted to him because he is the complete opposite of my ex and I can share all the things in my life that are most important to me with him in really profound ways, and it's so incredible to have that with someone...but there MUST be other articulate, brilliant, creative guys out there who can talk about literature and philosophy with me without running out of things to say, and go on silly wordplay riffs with me, who have even just a LITTLE less baggage...really, just a LITTLE. It's not like I have none...but, you know, maybe someone who can fit it into the trunk of a car and doesn't need a u-haul?
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 thanks lyssa----your relationship sounds HORRIBLE and exactly what I'm afraid of. I could see my guy deciding he does want to be in a relationship, because he admitted that it's confusing for him because he doesn't usually sleep with people outside of a relationship, and he wants to be with me, but at the same times knows he can't handle a relationship so soon after his breakup. So I could imagine it just sort of drifting along and becoming something more, but with a LOT of misery and manipulation along the way. In many ways I 'm so attracted to him because he is the complete opposite of my ex and I can share all the things in my life that are most important to me with him in really profound ways, and it's so incredible to have that with someone...but there MUST be other articulate, brilliant, creative guys out there who can talk about literature and philosophy with me without running out of things to say, and go on silly wordplay riffs with me, who have even just a LITTLE less baggage...really, just a LITTLE. It's not like I have none...but, you know, maybe someone who can fit it into the trunk of a car and doesn't need a u-haul? Horrible is putting it lightly, to be honest with you. On top of his stupid mind games he played on me, his ex was also involved! So imagine how effed up that relationship of mine was. Oh boy! Just thinking about it is making me all pissy and feel so stupid for getting myself involved. The bolded part - it will always be part of that kinda relationship, RW. I would seriously not get myself attached to a man like that ever again! There are other guys like that, even much better than your current guy. I know there is because I met one after I broke up with that jerk and it was a great relationship I had but it didn't last long. He wasn't a jerk - things just didn't go as we planned. Now, I'm with someone even way better than any guy I have been with so yes, there is a better guy out there and you will have no problem finding one because you seem to have a personality and know what you want in a man... you just gotta give it some time and get to know more people.
oppath Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 If someone can't give you what you want, WALK AWAY. If they try to manipulate you RUN AWAY. I had a similar situation... But not once have I ceased to think: eventually I will meet someone who blows her away. I've known from day 1: I deserve more than what she is offering. I am an all or nothing deal. It may take me time, but eventually, I will meet someone who makes me realize "this is why it didn't work out with her...so I could meet this woman instead."
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 If someone can't give you what you want, WALK AWAY. If they try to manipulate you RUN AWAY. I had a similar situation... But not once have I ceased to think: eventually I will meet someone who blows her away. I've known from day 1: I deserve more than what she is offering. I am an all or nothing deal. It may take me time, but eventually, I will meet someone who makes me realize "this is why it didn't work out with her...so I could meet this woman instead." Gosh Oppath! That is so true! I love it that you see it that when a relationship doesn't work out the way we want it to. Not a lot of people will see that way, you know.
oppath Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Gosh Oppath! That is so true! I love it that you see it that when a relationship doesn't work out the way we want it to. Not a lot of people will see that way, you know. Actually, I still blame myself for the breakup and for not accepting her offer to be "friends with benefits" (her quotes, not mine) 1.5 weeks after the breakup, because of the WHAT IF, considering the breakup "has nothing to do with a lack of feelings; all the chemistry, romance, and passion are there" (her words, not mine). I do struggle...will I ever meet that woman. I do believe it will take me longer (because of my esteem issues) than other people. But despite low self esteem and depression, I realized "I deserve more than this. I will not allow it." Quite honestly, I don't feel I am lovable. That is my base image of myself, 2+ decades thinking that way before trying to change it. Feeling used when my last relationship ended didn't help. Nor did the fact that her ex proposed to her and she didn't tell me about it or the fact that he'd spend the night at her house when he'd fly into town. But I never believed "I will never find someone." I always believed "I deserve more than this. Someday, it will happen." Dealing with depression, yeah, I believe it will be more difficult, and I believe my depression in GENERAL has made me mired in the muck of the past, which further depresses me about specific things. But I know that I will find a better relationship. I learned some powerful lessons and have no doubt that I will make better choices in the future. I'll be honest...it messed me up. But I know that I am worth more and will find a woman who will treat me in a way that make me feel visible and valued, not just during the relationship, but if it ends as well.
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Well the thing is to work out your esteem issues first before getting involved with a woman. I'm sure you're working on that as we speak? I had a hard time before this dating a man seriously because of the issues I had. Thank goodness, I work past it all and I have never been happier, to be honest with you. It's a great feeling but never in my life, I would tell people I regret all the relationships I have been in because it made me the woman I am today. I believe that you deserve so much more too, everyone deserves more especially if you're with a loser/jerk. I don't know.. I am not the type who knows how to deal with this whole FWB issue, I just can't see myself in one. I have been asked a lot of times (when I was not attached) and my answer is always NO. I believe that I deserve so much more than to be treated as another piece of meat (that's how I see it, of course not everyone sees it like I do). I mean yeah, those guys are my friends but it will just ruin the friendship. I haven't come across people who didn't get hurt by the whole FWB thing. That is what I am afraid of. It's bad enough the hurt I went through in the past, I can't get through another one over 'benefits'. Gee whizz... am I making sense here cause my mind is working overtime and I am trying to catch up with it with my typing! LOL.
oppath Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 you make a lot of sense, and I can reflect it back to reelwoman....she would have been accepting a FWB scenario with half promises that he had feelings, and that is a sure path to low self esteem when you want more. I am working on my esteem issues, and I hope to be confident (I am in my interactions) and happy when I enter a relationship. Reelwoman, don't accept less than what you want. You could always explain to him "I can't be friends right now though i would love to in the future," but my experience has been that the person without the strong feelings rarely understands this request. Best of luck to you. There is no RIGHT decsion because this is a problem without a solution. Therefore, there is no absolute answer.
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Good one, Oppath. One more thing, Reelwoman - are you going to his reading? This is off topic - do you write poetries as well? I used to write some and trying to write again. I realised that I write very well when I am depressed! LOL.
Author reelwoman Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 hey oppath----I really admire your faith. I have to admit that I have often felt that I need to resign myself to living my life alone, because I would rather do that than be with someone who makes me feel bad about myself. I mean, I'm pretty good at doing that myself, so I don't need any help with that, lol! I struggle with depression too and what I've learned is that external factors---love, work, money, etc---rarely have anything to do with it. Those are catalysts or triggers, but that depression and that struggle to believe in yourself, to believe that you are a worthwhile person, comes from internal stuff. Fortunately I"ve never been a person who looked for validation from a relationship, but it is hard not to turn it back onto yourself (ie, "if this person doesn't value me, that means I have no value") when things go badly. I love what you said bout being"visible and valued." That feeling that the other person doesn't even SEE you is so awful--it's like they just see themselves reflected in you.Creepy. And I also think your attitude about trying to learn lessons from bad experiences and grow from them is right on---that's what I TRY to do ( don't always succeed)---to figure out what I learned about myself, what I do really want, what I'm NOT willing to put up with, etc. Lyssa---I think I might go to the reading tonight. I'd be going with a couple of friends so I won't really be able to talk to him and I can just leave right after he reads. I know he's going to give me his sweet, charming, "you're so important to me" vibe and he will genuinely be glad I'm there, but I told my friends that under no circumstances are they to allow me to be alone with him! After tonight I will have to figure out how to talk to him without getting confused and turned around. I think he's been pretty lonely and actually does think of me as a close friend, and will be pretty unhappy if I tell him I can't be friends at all, but I don't feel that he's a real friend to me, so I can't keep giving my energy to him, right? I have a ton of work I need to get done and I am just going to focus on that. Oh, and Lyssa, I do write some poetry, but mostly I'm a filmmaker and a painter. And I also find that being depressed give me a lot of creative ammunition for my work!!! thanks guys for sharing your stories and for listening--it really does help!
Lyssa Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Lyssa---I think I might go to the reading tonight. I'd be going with a couple of friends so I won't really be able to talk to him and I can just leave right after he reads. I know he's going to give me his sweet, charming, "you're so important to me" vibe and he will genuinely be glad I'm there, but I told my friends that under no circumstances are they to allow me to be alone with him! After tonight I will have to figure out how to talk to him without getting confused and turned around. I think he's been pretty lonely and actually does think of me as a close friend, and will be pretty unhappy if I tell him I can't be friends at all, but I don't feel that he's a real friend to me, so I can't keep giving my energy to him, right? I have a ton of work I need to get done and I am just going to focus on that. Oh, and Lyssa, I do write some poetry, but mostly I'm a filmmaker and a painter. And I also find that being depressed give me a lot of creative ammunition for my work!!! thanks guys for sharing your stories and for listening--it really does help! You're welcome, Reelwoman. It helps me as well telling my stories or experiences that I have gone through. I hope you will figure out how to talk to him without him manipulating you all over again. You know I could have walked away from that relationship earlier on but I kept letting him manipulate me, either that or he was just too good at it without my realising it. Oh well, it's over and done with and I am so happy with my current BF. It's all in the past and I shall keep it that way! It's good that you're going with a bunch of friends. That will keep you both from being alone. I hope your friends will do a good job at it . I hope you'll have fun tonight with your friends. It's good of you to give him the support that he needs and I hope he will see it as just that! Wow.. a filmmaker! That's awesome! I can't paint to save my life but I love to draw. Thanks for sharing your story too... Well, keep us posted...
oppath Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Now we know where reelwoman's name comes from . It sounds like you have a good idea. You will give him support because you genuinely care about him but you are also giving yourself the s-p-a-c-e you will need. He is not a true friend to you, so you can't be there for him to meet your needs when he won't meet yours. You come first, but I like the idea of leaving right after he reads with your friends.
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