annieo Posted October 27, 2007 Posted October 27, 2007 About a year ago, my h went on a business trip and visited a couple of strip joints with his boss. He also got three "table" dances (not lap, supposedly...).He also came home and lied his ass off about it, even after I found a pack of matches from the club. After 2 days of pleading for the truth, I eventually got the story I relayed above (and if you want more details, see my previous thread, "Strip clubs, lying, private dances" from last March or something like that. Here's my current problem - I have not been able to entirely let this go. This evening, I dropped the kids off at their friend's annual Halloween party. My h and I have about 3 hours of alone time. Last year, before the ****-storm of early November, I had (that afternoon) bought a bustier, black stockings, lacy panties and basically put on a free burlesque show for h, which was followed by raunchy living room sex, after which we got our breath, cleaned up, removed all evidence and then picked up the kids. I LOVED this aspect of our previous relationship. Lots of playing around and fun. Because I trusted him, this part of my sexual personality could flower. Tonight is Halloween party night. H has been making passes at me all day, and I have been getting more and more irritated. His eating noises at dinner almost made me scream. After dropping off the kids, I get home and he is having what he thought was a pre-coital shower. But readers, I can't do it. I feel like a fool for playing the slut for him and then having him go out and purchase dances from other slutty types only three days later. I am very sad, miss what used to be, but can't be that for him right now. I need advice. Am I obsessing, or does it make sense that on this night I am so angry. Our sex life has otherwise kind of returned to normal, but we don't do it as often, and I don't get into porn/toys/lingerie the way I used to. I really hate him for "stealing" this aspect of our life from me.
Curmudgeon Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 I really hate him for "stealing" this aspect of our life from me. ...you're still boiling mad at him you know as well as I that you have to find a way to let go of this. You're permitting it to continue to poison your marriage and rob it of joy for you. I'm assuming that you and your husband can't discuss this rationally and it becomes a confrontation rather than a conversation. I would really recommend you get some individual counseling regarding anger management and communication skills to begin with and expand it to couple counseling when the time is right and you can confront the specific issue calmly and far less emotionally.
Author annieo Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 I agree and disagree. We can discuss it rationally, have this evening. It doesn't turn into a confrontation, but it doesn't change anything, either. I agree with the counselling idea. We did go to couples counselling a few times right after the big lying blow up, but the therapist seemed to minize our problem (he had seen much worse, plus he thought we really had a solid relationship basically, which is true). I think it might be helpful for me to go on my own, however, so I don't end up so completely resentful that something else happens. I feel pretty lonely right now.
Cobra_X30 Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 I am very sad, miss what used to be, but can't be that for him right now. I need advice. Am I obsessing, or does it make sense that on this night I am so angry. Our sex life has otherwise kind of returned to normal, but we don't do it as often, and I don't get into porn/toys/lingerie the way I used to. I really hate him for "stealing" this aspect of our life from me. How bad do you want to punish him? Yeah, he did something stupid. Yes, he needs to make that up to you. But you have to be willing to forgive. Dont you want to be happy again? Do you want to hurt him so bad that your willing to sacrafice your marriage? I hope not.
Author annieo Posted October 28, 2007 Author Posted October 28, 2007 How bad do you want to punish him? Yeah, he did something stupid. Yes, he needs to make that up to you. But you have to be willing to forgive. Dont you want to be happy again? Do you want to hurt him so bad that your willing to sacrafice your marriage? I hope not. No I don't want to sacrifice my marriage. It's not about punishing him, it's about how I am feeling hurt. I don't purposefully become bitchy to get him: I like to be happy, and I hate how I'm feeling. I am willing to forgive, but it will take time and complete honesty from him in the future. Tall order. Has anyone out there been through something similar?
JLMickey Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Annieo- Many people debate strip clubs: if a man gets a "table dance," is he cheating, is he not cheating... I don't know. What I do know is that it hurts to think of one's husband sitting there while some other woman jiggles God-knows-what in his face. When men (and women) take wedding vows, they promise to "HONOR" their spouce. If that is what his ideas of "honor" is, he needs a dictionary. I understand your feelings and your hurt 100%. With my husband, I'm the same way. My philosophy is that men shouldn't be of the impression that they can do whatever they want and then expect their wives to "take care of them" whenever they get horny!! This frame of mind is unacceptable! Sex is a CHOICE whether you are married or not. There is no law stating that you have to please your husband in bed. He should earn it and one way to earn it is to make you feel sexy. Going to strip clubs is not the way to do that! I totally disagree with the other advice that stated that you should seek "individual counseling for your anger." Nope. Sorry... you have a right to be angry and you don't need a shrink to tell you your feelings are wrong. However, I do not think this is something worth ruining a marriage over. Perhaps some COUPLE'S counseling... but your husband made a mistake... why are YOU the one who needs to end up on the couch trying to fix yourself? It sounds like you had a perfectly happy, healthy marriage and sex life before your husband made this poor choice. Our society always assumes it's the woman who needs the counceling, even when it's the man who made the mistake!
Curmudgeon Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Our society always assumes it's the woman who needs the counceling, even when it's the man who made the mistake! And certainly not that one. I'm anything but sexist. The suggestion was because this incident occurred quite some time ago and has not been resolved. Meanwhile she's still feeling hurt and angry and it's still being permitted to drive a wedge between them. She can't forgive him and part of the reason is likely continuing anger over what she saw, and rightfully so, as a betrayal.
Princess112 Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Annieo what is his reaction when you try to discuss this matter? Does he try to be comforting, understand and apologetic? Or does he try to pass it off as something unimportant that happened a long time ago? If he does the latter, then let him know "Your non-caring attitude is affecting our sex life and I can no longer be playful in bed with you. Each time that is suggested, I am reminded of your lies." Be clear. What do you want changed? What exact ways are there for him to prove that he is being honest with you? Let him know. Only then will you be able to start developing some closure. If he is understanding and apologetic and seems genuinely concerned, then I agree with curmudgeon and advise therapy, or yoga. Do some reiki, it helps release your negative energy and allows you to be happy and healthy again.
Mr. Lucky Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 I think the simple truth is that, in a marital conflict like this, you have two choices. One choice supports your pride, stubborness and ego (I speak from much experience in this regard) and the other choice leads to happiness. You're the only one that can weigh the relative value of each approach... Mr. Lucky
tommyr Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 If it has been a year and is still causing big problems for you, I would agree with the suggestion of either counseling (for you) or marriage counseling for you both. While it would be nice to continue blaming him and say that he made the mistake let HIM go to counseling the problem with this logic is that is does not sound like HE is still agonizing over what happened a year ago. Let's assume your H apologized sincerely and has not visited any more strip joints. As crazy as this sounds, the problem now lies within YOU. That might sound like bad news but actually it is empowering because you can simply choose to let it go. Is it better to be right or to be happy?
BlueEyedSarah Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Lap dance/table dance, is that any form of sex? Did he keep these girls numbers? - If not then how is this cheating? Many of us agree and disagree when it comes to strip clubs - I do not agree that he cheated on you for going to a dtrip club. When a guy sees a nice looking girl or a girl dressed up 'naughty' they thoam at the mouth, trying to control their mind, but it jumps to their penis instead. Its like an out of body experiance for them... This is only what I heard You need to find a way to overcome what has happened in the past. Maybe go to marriage counsiling?
Mr. Lucky Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Is it better to be right or to be happy? What I was trying to say ... Mr. Lucky
sally4sara Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 I don't have a big problem with strip clubs but I know some people do and I can understand having him visit one 3 days after you put on a little "show" for him might rub you raw a bit. You said he took a a business associate to one. It might not have been your husband's idea to go in the first place. Still you have, a year later and after some counseling, resentment issues. You formerly would get playful about sex with your husband. Did you ever REALLY enjoy this or were you just doing it to prevent him from straying? Yeah he lied and that is wrong. But he wasn't carrying on an affair; he did not connect with another woman; they did their job and it isn't about anything more for them or your husband. Are you angry because you are a mother more in your mind than a sexual being and feel stuck in that role? Maybe you resent your husband for being able to step out of his role as husband and father even momentarily? Do you now feel as if every time you try to put on a "show" he will be comparing you to the strippers or want to go again? Please understand that you are focusing too much on women that are irrelevant to you and your husband's relationship. If it is the comparing aspect then your anger isn't solely about what your husband did but rather feeling inferior and that is something you need to fix within yourself. Stop punishing him for your self image issues. He didn't create them. Likely the changes having children physically caused on your body and your perception about these physical changes visual worth are the issue. His trip to the club just aggrivated it.
michaelk Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 I'm not going to address whether your H going to a strip club constitutes cheating or not. That's a decision that every couple has to make for themselves. But clearly you had a certain expectation of his behavior, and he didn't meet that expectation. It's critical for the two of you to discuss this in depth and come to an understanding about what is in and out of bounds, regarding both the strip club and the lying. This will make sure that you can move forward with each knowing what the other expects, paving the road for the future. Before you can even have a future, though, you have to deal with the past. It sounds like you're not doing that. First off, recognize that what's done is done. The past is kind of like a book. No matter how many times you re-read it, it's going to unfold exactly the same way. Continuing to go over and over it in your mind prevents you from focusing on what you should be doing now. Yes, you're allowed to have your feelings. Our feelings are our first reaction to any situation, and you don't control them. But you do control how you react to them. After this much time, you should ask yourself what course of action you're going to take. Are you going to make your marriage work by setting aside the past, establishing a new understanding with your H, and no longer taking this incident out on him? Or are you going to continue with a crippled relationship, withdrawing intimacy and dwelling on what happened? I understand that your trust has been shaken, but even with the lying and the strippers you can still choose how to react. You can love and accept him even knowing his worst flaws and what he is capable of. Or you can decide that you need a more 'perfect' partner, and move on in the search for that. But either way, you need to move forward.
Cobra_X30 Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 No I don't want to sacrifice my marriage. It's not about punishing him, it's about how I am feeling hurt. I don't purposefully become bitchy to get him: I like to be happy, and I hate how I'm feeling. I am willing to forgive, but it will take time and complete honesty from him in the future. Tall order. Has anyone out there been through something similar? I understand where your coming from. I mean he lied to you about other women. Thats not something you should just snap your fingers and get over. But it seems to be affecting you very deep! How hard is he trying to make this up to you?
Deanster Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 OK - I'm sorry, but I just don't see that this is an issue to ruin your marriage over. He spent a couple hours in a strip club, with perhaps 9 minutes (3 songs) of women waving their goodies at him for money. He probably found them attractive, but didn't touch them, have any further contact after the club, or in any way continue the experience after the one night. I can understand you being upset - while neither my wife or I think that strip clubs are in any way a violation of our agreements, I get that other people do. However, it's one thing to be ticked off that your husband spend a couple hours 'out of bounds', and it's another to have it become an overriding issue in your marriage that sucks the joy of contact and sex out of you indefinitely. I don't know the details, but it sure sounds to me like your husband was dragged to the strip club by his boss. I don't know many folks who would suggest to their boss that they go to a strip club together, and conversely, it's awfully hard to decline your bosses invitation to go out, especially if you're looking for promotion. So, H goes with the boss, and while it's unlikely that he was there under duress, closing his eyes and thinking of England the whole time, I also think there's a big difference between going with the boss and, say, heading out on a weeknight by himself to a strip club. He may not be able or willing to explain the pressures he feet about being there, and the need to 'fit in', or make points with the boss by participating. Unfortunately, it also seems like he gauged your likely response accurately, and evaded/lied like a madman. I can tell you as a guy that on something like this, where I end up feeling like I'm caught between work and wife, even if I didn't especially want to go, it's also pretty easy to feel like I shouldn't have to ALSO justify and defend myself at home. Not condoning his lies, but it's a pretty common and attractive approach to avoid feeling like you're taking it from everyone. In any case, regardless of his intentions, and the level of his violation (which is substantial to you, and your opinion is really the only one that matters, right?), YOU are the only one who can change or fix the situation. He can try to demonstrate qualities that you value, and make it easier for you to feel better, but he's got no control over your feelings. If he's so violated your expectations that you can't continue being married, you need to tell him, get a divorce and move forward. If it's a minor matter that everyone can move past, forgive him or have him buy you something nice, or build you a gazebo, or whatever helps you feel like he's 'paid his dues', and move on with your life together. Or, if it's a minor/medium issue, and you're not willing to either divorce him or forgive him, or in some other way move past it, then it's time for counseling. Because really, your only choices are to find a way to live a happy, reasonably complete life, or split up. Having him in the 'penalty box' for years over a single incident isn't a foundation for the rest of your lives together, IMHO.
Author annieo Posted October 31, 2007 Author Posted October 31, 2007 In response to deanster, thanks for the advice. You are right on about a few things. I am pretty sure (from what my h said and from what I know about his sleazy boss, who spent about 30 minutes in a private room, while my h was having 2 of his 3 table dances in the main part of the club) that it was the boss' idea to go. And you are also right that my h didn't exactly hate the idea, and perhaps was kind of pleased that he got to go and it wasn't his idea. A little more background: when the truth came out last November, I also found out that my h had been to clubs on four other occasions while away on business, not alone, but with co-workers not boss. He had also lied to me on those occassions, except I had not found out about them (no matches on the floor next to his bag). I guess he wanted/needed to come completely clean with me about everything, before I destroyed another one of his shirts (I trashed the sweater he was wearing at the sc because I had bought it for him like 3 days before he went away, because he really liked it and was short on cash that day). So, not one incident. One of 5 including strip clubs, and there was another lying thing about e-mail correspondance with an ex on the first year of our relationship, pre-marriage. So, maybe that explains the depth of my distrust. I don't think a gazebo (or finally finishing the linen closet, or flowers, or sweet talk...) are going to make things get better or feel "even". But today has been a good day. That's something to be grateful for.
Mr. Lucky Posted November 1, 2007 Posted November 1, 2007 I don't think a gazebo (or finally finishing the linen closet, or flowers, or sweet talk...) are going to make things get better or feel "even". But today has been a good day. That's something to be grateful for. I think one of Deanster's points is that, at this juncture in your marriage, it's up to you. I would just ask you to consider that, of all of the combinations of choices in front of you, staying in your marriage AND staying bitterly unhappy seems like the least fullfilling pair of options... Mr. Lucky
Author annieo Posted November 1, 2007 Author Posted November 1, 2007 I think one of Deanster's points is that, at this juncture in your marriage, it's up to you. I would just ask you to consider that, of all of the combinations of choices in front of you, staying in your marriage AND staying bitterly unhappy seems like the least fullfilling pair of options... Mr. Lucky I stay in hope of getting over this, not in staying in bitterness. Iwant things to normalize, and I realize that might take time. I don't want to be hasty. What's the rush/ But in the meantime, this (sometimes) sucks.
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