reelwoman Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 Hey--I was reading an old thread here about FWB and wanted to revisit that conversation. I thought I was dating someone but now I am pretty sure he sees it as a FWB. We have known each other for years, not well but running in the same circles and i"ve had a crush on him for years. We both jsut got out of relationships last spring---his was very serious, a 4-year living-together-with-her-child situtation, mine was serious but not that much. We started hanging out platonically and had a great time, would talk on the phone and hang out to go to movies, hear music, watch movies together, make dinner together, etc. he was very clear that he was totally devastated by his last relationship-he ended it but he is just not emotionally ready. So fine, but after a couple of months of hanging out, he made a move, and I asked him what he wanted and he said he didn't want a serious relationship but couldnt we jsut take it slowly and see where it went. So we've been doing that--in many ways it's been great and he ACTS like my boyfriend but then he pulls away. We go on outings together, hikes and day trips, cook and and watch movies, have THE most mindblowing sex of my life( the sexual chemistry is SO intense and I don't think I"m imagining that is is for him too), take baths and read poetry to each other, he holds my hand and puts him arm around me in public, he gets jealous ( but denies it and says he is just kidding) when anyone else shows interest or when I"m not available, we have incredible conversations about art, literature, philosophy, totally crack each other up------BUT he won't spend the night, tells me he doesn't care if I sleep with other people, wont be officially exclusive ( though he's not seeing anyone else), doesn't seem to want to see me more than once or maybe twice a week,and when I asked him point blank how he conceives of our relationship he repeated that he didn't want to be in a relationship and he just wants to have fun with me, that he really values my friendship and doesnt want to hurt me and that if I'm going to get hurt we should stop having sex. I mean, I'm not asking for "serious" but he balked even at "dating"! He said that he's confused too because he always has sex within a relationship, but he says he jsut does not have the emotional resources to be in a relationship. I don't know what to do, because this doesn't feel like a typical "he's just in it for the sex" thing but at the same time I don't want to kid myself. I AM attached and I am so close to falling for him in a huge way. I feel like I have to back way off or I will get really hurt, more than I already am. We are SUCH a good match on every level....but does it sound like there's ANY chance he might change his tune if I hang in there with him? The thing is, my feeling is, I want to be with someone I know values me and I don't really feel that he does if what he is essentially saying to me is that he wants to have sex with no strings attached, regardless of whether he cares for me as a friend. Help!!!!! I don't even know if I can go back to being platonic friends because I am SO attracted to him and the chemistry is so hot between us that we can barely get in his car and drive a few blocks without stopping to fool around! I don't get men at all, dammit! How can he have such intense sex with me, have such great conversations about the things we both care about most ( we're both artists), have so much fun goofing around and joking around together, and he feels NOTHING for me?!
brothermartin Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 It sounds to me like your friend wants all the PROS of a real relationship, but none of the CONS. Maybe he's afraid that once he actually gives his heart to you and fully committs to a one-on-one relationship, you're going to flip the script on him. Like trying to pull him in different directions or try to "fix" him. Did this happen in his other relationship?
jophil28 Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 I don't get men at all, dammit! How can he have such intense sex with me, have such great conversations about the things we both care about most ( we're both artists), have so much fun goofing around and joking around together, and he feels NOTHING for me?! You are right - you don't get men at all . Most women are clueless too, so your are not alone. Here is a gem of wisdom to write on the fridge. This is straight from " Secret men's business'" Men never go from a FWB to an LTR . We are not wired to go that route. You don't believe me? Ok - who do you know amongst your G/fs who has made that work for her ? Yep NOBODY ! That is the away it is in Manland. Start over with someone else BUT do not think that you are ever gonna snare a man by first sleeping with him and hoping that love will grow from that. NEVER !!@! gonna happen .
Pentula77 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 reelwoman...what is the problem !? don't try to define everything into a box, relax...just go with the flow.
Author reelwoman Posted October 16, 2007 Author Posted October 16, 2007 yeah, I have a feeling jophil28 is right...I guess it's confusing to me that he is at times acting like he really cares about me and is even romantic, and NOT in sexual situations, either, but at other times too---why is he doing that if he isn't feeling romantic? He's always the one who initiates that kind of thing. And Pentula 77, it's not so much that I want to put it in a box or define it, but that I am not at all comfortable with a FWB situation with this guy because I already know I like him too much for that and that I want more. But if there's no chance it will turn into more then I think I'd better break it off. Thanks for your responses! this is all very confusing for me. I've never been in a situation like this before.
Author reelwoman Posted October 16, 2007 Author Posted October 16, 2007 It sounds to me like your friend wants all the PROS of a real relationship, but none of the CONS. Maybe he's afraid that once he actually gives his heart to you and fully committs to a one-on-one relationship, you're going to flip the script on him. Like trying to pull him in different directions or try to "fix" him. Did this happen in his other relationship? yes! we have talked about how hard it's been for both of us, because in our past relatiosnhips we've been with people who wanted to "Fix" us or who liked the idea of being with an artist but then got pissed off that it takes up so much of our time and energy to actually, you know, make the art...his ex was very conventional, wanted the whole suburban, religious, family holidays together thing. He got really excited a couple of times when I talked about how hard it's been for me to find someone who really accepts the amount of time alone I need to do my work, and doesn't resent it. So I guess that could be part of it.... but I don't want to be in a situation where I have to prove myself to someone. I think he must know that I'm not going to be like his ex.
jophil28 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 yeah, I have a feeling jophil28 is right Of course Jophil is right. Jophil is always "on the money", honey. OK here is some advice from "Secret men's business". Firstly , men pursue women and ' create ' romance to have sex. That is the way we are..You might like it or not - too bad ,that is the reality. YOU have had sex to create romance. He, on the other hand has achieved his biological objective ( to have sex with you ) so to the male mind, 'creating' romance or being romantically attached is now unneccessary and pointless. So you are traveling a path in the opposite direction to him and that is why you two are NOT connected in the way that you want. He has what nature wants him to have, but you do not - that's your blunder ! You want more insight or advice ?.
brothermartin Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Whoa Jo, you're making men out to be some kind of cold-hearted sex machines. Some men actually do enjoy romance with a woman, not to just get sex. We can get sex without having to resort to acting like Casanova and playing with a woman's feelings.
jophil28 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Whoa Jo, you're making men out to be some kind of cold-hearted sex machines. Some men actually do enjoy romance with a woman, not to just get sex. We can get sex without having to resort to acting like Casanova and playing with a woman's feelings. Hey Brother martin, you are not paying attention to the world around you. You ever hear the perennial complaint from women that, " he was all romantic when he was courting me, and then it stopped when we moved in together " What do you think is going on here ? The OP clearly wants more than a FWB .She has made a classic female mistake of setting up a connection with a man via sex HOPING that it will now lead to an LTR. Big mistake. The way you start sets up the contract.
Author reelwoman Posted October 16, 2007 Author Posted October 16, 2007 I do fear that the man is right...But still, I ask, why does he continue, even though he is already getting the sex, to ACT romantically---holding my hand at movies, giving me gifts, planning outings for us, cuddling, coming over early in the morning and bringing me breakfast, etc? What's the point of confusing the issue if he no longer has to seduce me? I mean, are all men really that much alike? This guy is a poet, very emotional, very sensitive, seems to care about my feelings, asks me about my problems and seems to genuinely care about them----he's not a player by any means. But I still feel that ultimately, regardless of how hurt he was in his last relationship, if he really had feelings for me he'd want to be at least dating me and not just saying that we're friends. Since we had our last conversation in which he asked what I wanted and I said I would like to feel that we're dating and he said he can't deal with being in a serious relationship, I haven't contacted him because I don't know what to say. He's called and emailed ( not on this subject, just the same kind of things as before as though we never had the conversation) but I haven't responded yet. I don't think "dating" equals LTR, but he doesn't even want to go that far, to say we're more than friends. That does not suggest to me that he has romantic feelings for me. On the other hand, what was with asking me to take a bath with him and reading love poetry to me? there was no sex involved either, so what was the point? Should I just assume that any romance is really all in my head?
Pentula77 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 he's just been in a long term relationship, maybe he's just not ready. Why not just have fun with this guy and relax and see where it goes...how long have you been with him ? If it's less than 12 months I think your expectations could be a little high at this stage... Expectations breed frustrations.
jcster Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 The way you start sets up the contract. Oh, sweety...you're too young to be so cynical! Why don't you wait until you're in high school before getting into these complicated discussions!
Author reelwoman Posted October 17, 2007 Author Posted October 17, 2007 well, we've only been together a couple of months, but I don't know whether it's better to see what happens or to end it, because I just feel that I'm not being valued the way I want to be and it seems that if I let things go the way they are, that I am sending the message that I don't value myself very highly and that is' OK for him not to value me...jo's comments about men are scaring me! I just know that I am attached already and I will only get more so. I do think this guys cares about me, but do people think that it's true that since we started out as an undefined casual thing that it will never lead to a relationship? We were friends, hanging out platonically, for about 3 months before anything sexual happened. And I think there is a foundation of friendship and respect. Plus he does those boyfriendy things like pay for me if we go to a movie, hold my hand at the movies,read poetry aloud to me,etc--I mean, am I supposed to pay attention to his actions, which suggest he does really like me as girlfriend material, or his words, which say he's not ready and just wants to have fun?
uniqueone Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 You are right - you don't get men at all . Most women are clueless too, so your are not alone. Here is a gem of wisdom to write on the fridge. This is straight from " Secret men's business'" Men never go from a FWB to an LTR . We are not wired to go that route. You don't believe me? Ok - who do you know amongst your G/fs who has made that work for her ? Yep NOBODY ! That is the away it is in Manland. Start over with someone else BUT do not think that you are ever gonna snare a man by first sleeping with him and hoping that love will grow from that. NEVER !!@! gonna happen . Actually a woman that I know started out with a guy who was supposed to be just a one night stand sort of thing and now they're living together and have been together for 3 years. It CAN happen, but it's rare.
uniqueone Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Ok, I told myself that I really needed to get some work done but I just have to respond to this one.... So fine, but after a couple of months of hanging out, he made a move, and I asked him what he wanted and he said he didn't want a serious relationship but couldnt we jsut take it slowly and see where it went. Pay attention to the part where he says "He didn't want a serious relationship." He came right out and said it. The fact that he followed it up with "but couldn't we just take it slowly and see where it went." is his way of keeping you from running off. It's called having your cake and eating it too. He's holding the carrot in front of your nose. BUT he won't spend the night, tells me he doesn't care if I sleep with other people, I hate to tell you this, but this is a REALLY bad sign. I know...I've been in the situation where they didn't care. If they don't care that you sleep with other people....RUN! RUN...RUN...RUN!!!! wont be officially exclusive ( though he's not seeing anyone else), doesn't seem to want to see me more than once or maybe twice a week,and when I asked him point blank how he conceives of our relationship he repeated that he didn't want to be in a relationship and he just wants to have fun with me, that he really values my friendship and doesnt want to hurt me and that if I'm going to get hurt we should stop having sex. These are red flags waving like banners in front of you. Picture the guyswith the red flags who quide airplanes down the runway..... Those guys are all waving in front of you and the red-alert fog-horn sirens are going off. Believe what he's saying! I don't know what to do, because this doesn't feel like a typical "he's just in it for the sex" thing They're not all alike. Just because some of them hold your hand, look deep into your eyes or brush the hair off of your face, does NOT mean that they care about you or want a relationship with you. Don't be fooled. He's telling you in black and white. And if you end up expecting more, he can always say he told you where he stood from the start. I AM attached and I am so close to falling for him in a huge way. I feel like I have to back way off or I will get really hurt, more than I already am. You WILL get VERY hurt. I've been there too often. On the other hand when I was in the situation, if someone had been telling me there was no chance with the guy, I probably wouldn't have listened to them. More power to you if you can walk away now. We are SUCH a good match on every level....but does it sound like there's ANY chance he might change his tune if I hang in there with him? The thing is, my feeling is, I want to be with someone I know values me and I don't really feel that he does if what he is essentially saying to me is that he wants to have sex with no strings attached, regardless of whether he cares for me as a friend. He doesn't value you. He doesn't care if you have sex with someone else and he wouldn't give up the chance to have sex with someone else himself. I don't even know if I can go back to being platonic friends because I am SO attracted to him and the chemistry is so hot between us that we can barely get in his car and drive a few blocks without stopping to fool around! It seems that the chemistry is always this intense with those who are just out for fun. Look at those who have affairs with married people....the sex is always outstanding. I don't get men at all, dammit! How can he have such intense sex with me, have such great conversations about the things we both care about most ( we're both artists), have so much fun goofing around and joking around together, and he feels NOTHING for me?! Some men just aren't like us and it's really hard for most women to understand. Think of it this way....think of some female friends of yours. You have a great time with Mary when you go out, but the next day you can have a great time with Kelly. You like spending time with both of them and like them for different things. This is how they see it---as if you were a friend---only they can have sex with these friends without it creating further attachment or emotion. Let's say after you go out and spend time with both Mary and Kelly, you give them both a hug. To them, sex is no more than a hug.
Author reelwoman Posted October 17, 2007 Author Posted October 17, 2007 thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a complete response---this is really what I needed to hear. My question now is, do I a) tell him I am not going to sleep with him anymore because I don't want to be with someone who doesnt value me, but still will be friends, b) not talk to him about it but just say no next time he makes a move, c) not talk to him about it and totally blow him off, not respond to his emails or phone calls, and not be friends with him either because it's going to be hard for me to see him without feeling hurt ( plus is there ANY chance he might rethink things and decide he misses me.....?), or d) do what one friend of mine suggested, give him what he SAYS he wants but date other people and let him know it and see if he turns around ( he SAYS he doesnt care if I sleep with other people but is always questioning me about other people I spend time with and got very jealous when he found out I hang out with my ex, and also when he saw a book of love that another guy had recently given me...in fact, after he saw the book at my house he suddenly left, without having had sex, and said he had to go home and feed his cats...)
brothermartin Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 I would say go with option A. Particially. Let him know that there will be no more sex for him from you because you want this to become more than just a sexual relationship, but don't give the friends option. Leave the ball in his court. He needs to make up his mind and committ to you, or move on. But dont let yourself get strung along with the promise of more. I know, my ex didnt go for that. Thats why she's my ex.
jophil28 Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 a) tell him I am not going to sleep with him anymore because I don't want to be with someone who doesnt value me, He does value you - as a F*kkbuddy. THere is NO way that you are going to say this to him and mean it. You are too invested emotionally, and emotionally invested women are clueless operators.. You might try to "bluff" him into dating you by saying this (as a disguised ultimatum ) but ,consider this, he is MUCH more skilled at relationships and getting what HE wants than you are. Why do I say that ? Look at the evidence - because he already has what he wants and you DON"T have what you want. Smart guy !
jophil28 Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Oh, sweety...you're too young to be so cynical! Why don't you wait until you're in high school before getting into these complicated discussions! You ability to create insults and humiliation seems to be limited to comments about "being in high school." YOu appear to be struggling for clever jabs. PM me, and I will send you some tips and hints on 'putdowns' and how to do this stuff better . I have a lot of old insults that I am not using anymore . They are kinda lame and dated, but they are miles better that your current material. See how NICE and generous I really am . I'm on this board to help those less skilled and privileged than me.
Replicant Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 yeah, I have a feeling jophil28 is right...I guess it's confusing to me that he is at times acting like he really cares about me and is even romantic, and NOT in sexual situations, either, but at other times too---why is he doing that if he isn't feeling romantic? He's always the one who initiates that kind of thing. And Pentula 77, it's not so much that I want to put it in a box or define it, but that I am not at all comfortable with a FWB situation with this guy because I already know I like him too much for that and that I want more. But if there's no chance it will turn into more then I think I'd better break it off. Thanks for your responses! this is all very confusing for me. I've never been in a situation like this before. Of course, he's acting that way so his benefits don't run out in the status things currently are. When you push the envelope to wanting more or get clingy, he's a ghost.
Author reelwoman Posted October 18, 2007 Author Posted October 18, 2007 OK, all of you have been really helpful, even jo whose ideas about men and women I find horrifying ! So this is my plan: he says he doesn't want to be in a relationship? OK, I am going to stop acting like we're in one. I will no longer consider him in any action that I take, will date the other guys who are asking me out, will no longer cook for him, keep weekends open for him, or invite him to things I'm doing, or in fact do anything for or with him that I wouldn't do for or with any other casual friend. If he wants more than I'm giving him, he can ask for it. End of story. In spite of what jo says, I do think he actually likes me as more than a FB, but if he doesn't want a relationship there's nothing I can do about it. I wish things were different and I think we could really have something ( and we're not kids here, people--this is not teen or 20s drama, or even 30s drama...)but that's it for me. Between him and my ex who is suddenly flirting with me like a love-struck teenager (even though he has a new girlfriend who's 10 years younger than I am) after dumping me last spring, I am on a fast track to disaster!! time for me to save myself.... thanks everyone!
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